#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

Status
Not open for further replies.
Pretty much. The harassers won this round.

What's going to happen in the future? In the short term: not a big pile. In the longer term, I suspect some developer will make a Twitter clone with some anti-harassment measures (and probably some registration restrictions) and there's going to be a migration over to it. I wouldn't expect this clone to topple Twitter any time soon, but I expect Zoe Quinn, Leigh Alexander et al will get off Twitter sooner rather than later.

I definitely agree that this has been a sad and tragic ordeal. It's super sad that we've lost voices and people being harmed.

Personally I imagine that the different groups and their preferences are going to fragment and split up away from each other. Leftist, socially conscious, alternative games and criticism will branch out and exist in its own segment without paying attention to what the conservative video game and the risk-free AAA industry will be doing. The specific subset of 'gamers' who don't want change or social justice or new experiences will still get their mass-produced products catering to their needs, I think (depending on the financial viability of course).

Regarding the 'mainstream' video games industry and culture: If they want diversity, if they want women, if they want better criticism, if they want to attract more people into this, then the major figures need to respond to this and take measures that reinforce and cultivate diversity and tolerance. Otherwise I am afraid that the mainstream video game culture and space will stagnate and deteriorate if nothing is done about all of this. Because this ordeal will in doubt have accomplished a severe chilling effect.

In such a scenario, I'm just afraid that the cultural values and experimental designs in the alternative domains will be co-opted by the cynically financially-driven publishers without any gratitude towards the original authors and idea-makers. But that's just me worrying :)
 
I am just catching up on this thread from last night, but although I am pretty disappointed with how boogie has rallied his users under #gamergate it has been encouraging to read his dialogue with people here and to see that he seems to at least have an open mind about what he is actually endorsing. I hope he comes back today.
 
I definitely agree that this has been a sad and tragic ordeal. It's super sad that we've lost voices and people being harmed.

Personally I imagine that the different groups and their preferences are going to fragment and split up away from each other. Leftist, socially conscious, alternative games and criticism will branch out and exist in its own segment without paying attention to what the conservative video game and the risk-free AAA industry will be doing. The specific subset of 'gamers' who don't want change or social justice or new experiences will still get their mass-produced products catering to their needs, I think (depending on the financial viability of course).

Regarding the 'mainstream' video games industry and culture: If they want diversity, if they want women, if they want better criticism, if they want to attract more people into this, then the major figures need to respond to this and take measures that reinforce and cultivate diversity and tolerance. Otherwise I am afraid that the mainstream video game culture and space will stagnate and deteriorate if nothing is done about all of this.

In such a scenario, I'm just afraid that the cultural values and experimental designs in the alternative domains will be co-opted by the cynically financially-driven publishers without any gratitude towards the original authors and idea-makers. But that's just me worrying :)

I guess we'll see. I still think this was dealt a major blow. I think a lot of people are burnt out on it. I think the mistrust of the media with the consumer (whether warranted or not, it's there)...is only going to further their rejection of any kind of message/information they provide on social issues.

So I have no hope for the short term. But we'll see where we are at in 2 years or so. Hopefully we don't continue to have massive shit storms like this again.
 
Has the GamesOverGate link posted here ?

Long story short : Zoe Quinn infiltrated into the 4chan irc channel where people were planing Gamergate and the ridiculous notyourshield and recorded logs and logs and logs =P

If there was any doubt that 4chan was involved and it was a harassment campain ...

I personaly love the "abort the raid irc's zoe is in them" post on 4chan xD

http://www.examiner.com/abuse/report/node/73848206?render=overlay

Yes.

C'mon people, time to abandon ship. Any legitimacy anyone thinks sits behind #gamergate is a sham. You're being manipulated.
 
I already mentioned the stuff about Patricia Hernandez writing lengthy articles in support of games made by her ex-gf and former roomie. The fact that Leigh Alexander does PR and 'game journalism.'

It wasn't her ex-gf, it was just her roommate. Leigh Alexander doesn't do PR, she consults on games she does not cover.
 
I am just catching up on this thread from last night, but although I am pretty disappointed with how boogie has rallied his users under #gamergate it has been encouraging to read his dialogue with people here and to see that he seems to at least have an open mind about what he is actually endorsing. I hope he comes back today.

I'd be fascinated to see his take on all of this too as he has always seemed like a thoughtful person willing to engage. It's clear a lot of folks thought this was about the 'gamer' label rather than being a mutant offshoot of Quinnspiracy. This label can't be rescued though and if Boogie wants to continue that campaign he's one of the few with enough clout to wrest folks away from GG to another banner leaving the extremists behind.
 
http://www.examiner.com/abuse/report/node/73848206?render=overlay

Yes.

C'mon people, time to abandon ship. Any legitimacy anyone thinks sits behind #gamergate is a sham. You're being manipulated.

Thing is, this was clear from the start if you only paid attention to the series of events. Granted not everyone was following this closely as it unfolded. So I can understand people joining the campaign after it took off as something else. BUT, I really question anyone that would join a campaign, when they don't actually know the origins of it, or what its goals are. Or who the people from the bottom are that are pushing it.

I would like to think, these are always questions you need to ask before jumping into something political. And what bugs me is, many of us on GAF, and other places tried to tell people about this. So even if you didn't agree with these perspectives going up, it should have at least made them re-examine the campaign. *sigh*
 
Thing is, this was clear from the start if you only paid attention. Kind of sad that it required someone recording logs before people understood it.

Yeah that's the thing with sbroad based campaigns from signature drives to twitter hash tags most folks only look at the surface. If the goal seems noble then hey why not support it? That's the core of Lenin's 'useful idiots' idea, start with a noble ideal to build support then steer the campaign from the shadows to your own ends. From the krondstat sailors to modern 'astroturf' campaigns it still work and it still produces results
 
I think you guys thinking the twitter posts "Prove" anything about gamergate are suffering from some Confirmation bias. It's easy to prove something that you already think is true.

The logs are mostly just a bunch of kids in a chat talking about how they're planning on doing things, but there's no evidence they're responsible for any of it. To me they just sound like the kind of people who talk about how cool it would be to "Hack the FBI" or some such. Given, it does seem likely that her Ex and this Matt guy where there (Though someone could have just been using their names) but that's still a small fraction of the whole movement.
 
I think you guys thinking the twitter posts "Prove" anything about gamergate are suffering from some Confirmation bias. It's easy to prove something that you already think is true.

The logs are mostly just a bunch of kids in a chat talking about how they're planning on doing things, but there's no evidence they're responsible for any of it. To me they just sound like the kind of people who talk about how cool it would be to "Hack the FBI" or some such. Given, it does seem likely that her Ex and this Matt guy where there (Though someone could have just been using their names) but that's still a small fraction of the whole movement.

The Zoe Quinn stuff was the jumping off point for this campaign being started. There wasn't any corruption. So non corruption as a starting point for a campaign against mass corruption. How does that work?

Not to mention the fact that, most of the Zoe Quinn stuff was being fueled by people attacking her because she belonged to an activist wing that they didn't support and had nothing to do with corruption. I get where you are coming from though. And I can buy the idea that the origin of this campaign wasn't 100% just these people. But they were certainly involved. And that should be enough to make you question the purpose of this thing.
 
Yeah that's the thing with sbroad based campaigns from signature drives to twitter hash tags most folks only look at the surface. If the goal seems noble then hey why not support it? That's the core of Lenin's 'useful idiots' idea, start with a noble ideal to build support then steer the campaign from the shadows to your own ends. From the krondstat sailors to modern 'astroturf' campaigns it still work and it still produces results

This is off-topic but did Lenin ever actually use the phrase 'useful idiots'?

Edit: According to Wikipedia it hasn't been found in any of Lenin's writings.
 
The legitimate conversation and criticisms have already taken place. They've taken place for I don't know how many hundreds if not thousands of posts. If you still want to bang on that drum, fine, but you should realize that there's simply a limit to how much time you are going to spent on one single point of how much you have been hurt by someone labelling 'gamers' as misogynerds. If you still can't understand the thousands of points people have made, then you should simply say "agree to disagree".

No. There is no cause to "agree to disagree" on the subject of Leigh Alexander's article. The text of the article is offensive. The logic of the article is ridiculous. It is an idiotic article, and the fact that so many people, you very much included, have gone to such lengths to fabricate positive readings for it is disgraceful.

What I have been doing for the last however many posts is explaining, I think very thoroughly, why there is no alternative reading of the text of the article that makes it anything more than an exercise in bullying and guilt by association. Every argument to the contrary thus far has been Leigh Alexander fanfiction, not textual analysis.

Now you've fallen back to your usual posture: stop talking about things I don't care about, start talking about things I do care about. No, I'm not going to do that either. I will not accept for you to tell me which topics are acceptable for discussion and which topics beyond the pale. I come to Gaf because it's a place where "facts and evidence prevail," not because it is a place where the tenor and aims of discussions are to be unilaterally decided by a loud group of intellectually authoritarian scolds.

I'm not arguing about Leigh Alexander's article because it hurt my feelings. I'm not arguing about Leigh Alexander's article because I don't want more women in gaming. I'm arguing about Leigh Alexander's article because this argument has confirmed for me what I had suspected: that this debate isn't about facts and evidence anymore, if it ever was. This isn't about people carefully weighing each others' stances and impartially separating good arguments from bad arguments.

This is about tribal loyalty, about misrepresenting good arguments because they come from the other side and imagining justifications for bad arguments because they come from your side. This is about mobilizing allies in pursuit of a predetermined, immutable goal according to a set of predetermined, immutable tactics. This is about arguing in bad faith to shut up your "enemies" because the simple fact of winning is what matters to you, nothing else. This is fundamentally about dictating to other people what they are to think and what they are to care about: it's about power and politics, not about debate and intellectual growth.

Many people have told you over the course of these debates that they agree with your aims but find your tactics and rhetoric alienating. I don't know what their reasons are, but this is mine: you are not arguing in good faith.
 
One thing I don't like is that fact that there are people out there saying that gamers only cared about journalistic integrity once a woman got involved.
 
Thing is, this was clear from the start if you only paid attention to the series of events. Granted not everyone was following this closely as it unfolded. So I can understand people joining the campaign after it took off as something else. BUT, I really question anyone that would join a campaign, when they don't actually know the origins of it, or what its goals are. Or who the people from the bottom are that are pushing it.

I would like to think, these are always questions you need to ask before jumping into something political. And what bugs me is, many of us on GAF, and other places tried to tell people about this. So even if you didn't agree with these people, it should have at least made them re-think and re-examine the campaign. *sigh*

I think Leigh's incendiary and hostile article combined with the "describeagamerin4words" hashtag helped galvanize sides with all this, and perpetuate an "us vs. them" approach for a lot of people. People who would normally be on the same "side" were put off by toxic attitudes from people who call themselves inclusive (falsely, it seems).

For some people, hypocrisy is a worse offense than being shitty, but genuine about it. I could be totally wrong, but that's kinda the way I see it having followed all this.
 
If you feel disenfranchised or hated because you feel like the press hasn't served you well, or because you feel think the press are part of a game industry bubble, or for other reasons involving journalistic integrity or ethics or cliquishness, let's talk.

On the other hand, anyone who feels disenfranchised or hated because reporters and reviewers have started talking about systemic industry sexism and problematic video game tropes and other "SJW" issues should probably just stick to 4chan.

The problem is that GamerGate pretends both of those are part of the same problem.

Mods: since the other games journalism thread was locked and this thread is about #gamergate, can we have a thread dedicated to discussing issues with games journalism in a manner strictly detached from this phenomenon?
 
This is off-topic but did Lenin ever actually use the phrase 'useful idiots'?
It's debatable but it fits his writings on how Bolsheviks should gain power as he always acknowledged his vision of socialism was unlikely to enjoy broad support.

Edit: ahh thanks for the Wikipedia look up guess he didn't
 
I think you guys thinking the twitter posts "Prove" anything about gamergate are suffering from some Confirmation bias. It's easy to prove something that you already think is true.

The logs are mostly just a bunch of kids in a chat talking about how they're planning on doing things, but there's no evidence they're responsible for any of it. To me they just sound like the kind of people who talk about how cool it would be to "Hack the FBI" or some such. Given, it does seem likely that her Ex and this Matt guy where there (Though someone could have just been using their names) but that's still a small fraction of the whole movement.
So just because it was coordinated and planned with a goal in mind doesn't mean it was coordinated and planned with a goal in mind enough?
We should let this thing die i think.
 
I think Leigh's incendiary and hostile article combined with the "describeagamerin4words" hashtag helped galvanize sides with all this, and perpetuate an "us vs. them" approach for a lot of people. People who would normally be on the same "side" were put off by toxic attitudes from people who call themselves inclusive (falsely, it seems).

For some people, hypocrisy is a worse offense than being shitty, but genuine about it. I could be totally wrong, but that's kinda the way I see it having followed all this.

Absolutely. I've written a lot of lengthy posts on this. But I really think Leigh and the media's collective message was botched beyond belief. I also think this is a problem that has been going on for some time now (with how these social messages are presented). I think they are alienating and even at times insulting (when they aren't intended to be).

So they share some blame in all of this going in a direction it shouldn't have. As I said, moving forward if they want this industry to change, if they want people to listen, they need to change their approach to how they deliver these messages.
 
Imru’ al-Qays;128724098 said:
Every argument to the contrary thus far has been Leigh Alexander fanfiction

Here's an example of "Leigh Alexander fanfiction" from one of your favorite authors:


Imru’ al-Qays;128677565 said:
My job is games culture writer, but games culture is an embarrassment to me. It consists of doing things that I do not do.

Games culture is comprised of socially-stunted idiots, unlike me.

Gamers harass people on the internet and cause serious harm, unlike me.

Why am I even here with all you lowlives? I'm not like you.
 
The Zoe Quinn stuff was the jumping off point for this campaign being started. There wasn't any corruption. So non corruption as a starting point for a campaign against mass corruption. How does that work?

Not to mention the fact that, most of the Zoe Quinn stuff was being fueled by people attacking her because she belonged to an activist wing that they didn't support and had nothing to do with corruption. I get where you are coming from though. And I can buy the idea that the origin of this campaign wasn't 100% just these people. But they were certainly involved. And that should be enough to make you question the purpose of this thing.

I'm not saying you shouldn't question it. Everything in this whole stupid affair is questionable, as it's tended to mostly involve rumor and repeated misunderstandings, like a lot of conspiracy theories. I'm just saying a few chat logs isn't "Well, Gamergate is over, obviously it's all been a trick by 4chan."
 
One thing I don't like is that fact that there are people out there saying that gamers only cared about journalistic integrity once a woman got involved.

Right. This is clearly untrue. There have been flareups before.

However, that this current episode was borne of a targeted harassment and smear campaign does genuine people concerned about the state of games journalism no favors.

And good-faith proponents' unwillingness to detatch themselves from a toxic hashtag makes that idea seem more legitimate than it actually is.
 
I'm not saying you shouldn't question it. Everything in this whole stupid affair is questionable, as it's tended to mostly involve rumor and repeated misunderstandings, like a lot of conspiracy theories. I'm just saying a few chat logs isn't "Well, Gamergate is over, obviously it's all been a trick by 4chan."

Fair enough. As I said, I've disagreed with Jason's statement that "this is what it was all about". Clearly, this campaign isn't all about that. It has evolved beyond that. It means something completely different to a lot of people.

I guess what I've said already, the issue I, and many have with this, is that this campaign against corruption really is based off something where no corruption took place. And where the perceived corruption supposedly was, it's entrenched in misogyny and was a hate campaign. And so it's hard to really take the campaign seriously, when so much of its origins (and what it's being used for now by a group of people), is something completely different from what the campaign says its about.

Personally, I think if people are 100% serious about corruption/ethical issues with the gaming media, they should restart a new campaign/protest that has no ties to any of this. But that's just me.
 
That isn't what 'false dichotomy' means. But putting that aside, the reason I am angry right now is because women who were having a positive effect on the games industry are being forced out due to harassment. Even if you're not part of that harassment, by focusing on the hurt feelings of gamers, by equating the two sides, by continuing to use the hashtag #GamerGate, you are providing cover and legitimacy for the abuse.

1) "focusing on the hurt feelings of gamers" - I don't care about "hurt feelings" beyond the very reason why she ostensibly wrote the piece in the first place - to call out horrible behavior from misogynists and have fellow gamers rally to her cause. And if this wasn't her motivation, then I see no reason to cite it as a reasonable article that helps the anti-misogynist movement. I'm upset over her piece because I think it damages and slows the cause of bringing people together against misogyny, because it reads in a very inflammatory way despite how much of the article you want to claim is just rhetorical. Rhetorical devices can be, and typically are, inflammatory since people come to the assumption that the writer cares more about the strength of her message than the truth of her words. Politicians use rhetoric all the time, and you see how well that goes towards building trust.

2) "equating the two sides" - Again, the false dichotomy. There aren't two sides of "with us or against us." An article like Leigh's and other's could've brought more gamers into the fight against mysogynism had it been persuasive, but with the way it was written it's only provoking on-the-fence gamers to leap into the arms of #gamersgate and #notyourshield. If you can't see how these "two sides" are intricately connected with each other in a myriad of ways, then perhaps you're the one not seeing the situation clearly.
 
This thing has started to remind me of that abassador that got assassinated that kicked off all the tensions that started WWI. In this case though we're going back to the start of it all.

In this case (and sorta in that) the ugliness is still there

Games press are still buried in negative associations with gamers
Gamers trust the games press even less after the identity assassination.
We still can't stop anonymous trolls from hurting innocents.
Moderate people are getting stereotyped by both sides and pushed towards their respective extremes.

I was hoping we could really get some progress done. 4chan was goddamn funding trying to get women's ideas into the industry for god sakes. I'd love if that became the way extremists fight. Convincing the mob to support good causes. I'd like to see terrorists building schools, the kkk donating money to repair black neighborhoods and the westbaspro church funding abortion clinics. People were saying finally en masse "we need to talk rationally about this!"

buuut now it's doubling down on the flint spark that started this fire.Stuff we by and large already knew. Her ex's positon was never morally defensable from the moment he aired Zoe's personal life on the net. Now he just gets a solid listing in the "Anonymous isn't Your Personal Army" meme.

What else will happen... probably people who were comitted to not writing about it because it was too tabloidy will now write about it, people will complain, everyone will fight but half heartedly and things will go back to 'normal'

only it won't BE normal because all that pressure is still there and it just needs to wait for the next polarizing issue for everyone to erupt into loud expousing of their position and demonizing of all the "Others" who will have set into their 'evil nemises' of their mind.

Hell, the only people coming out of this with a big win is the anonymous trolls who got to feel like the center of the universe for a few weeks. Of course that will pass.... and guess how they're going to try to get that feeling back? By doing something even worse to the next woman who ends up in the news.

I won't lie, it is all super depressing.
 
I'm responding to a lot of people here so no quotes, however...

You're asking me what the agenda of gamergate is. Well I can't really speak for it because there are tens of thousands of people involved and sure, their needs and desires differ.

I can speak for myself and say that if I had my wish websites like kotaku and polygon and ign would do the following

1) Issue an apology for their role in this whole thing. Its ok if they stay vague, honestly. Just be sorry that they played a role in this.
1b) wouldn't hurt if we saw apologies for the whole 'gaming is dead' thing. that sucked

2) Begin to start posting exclusively articles about games, the companies that make them,
and the industry.
2b) avoid posting editorials as content, avoid clickbait, avoid non-gaming related crap.


3) begin disclosing when money is exchanging hands and when favors are exchanging hands. This includes 'gifts' like tablets and pcs and free copies of games or whatever else.
3b) fully disclose all connections the author of an article has with so and so. It would be swell if you could simply click on an authors name and see things like "Owns stock in so and so" and "is best friends with so and so".
3c) at the very least when the author has a conflict of interest, to recuse themselves or disclose that information.

If we woke up on monday to every one of those sites posting letters claiming this stuff then this 'war' would be over.

Insane people would still enjoy torturing zoe quinn and probably say its because of 'gamergate' though because that's just what crazy people do.

Dude, this is so weird. What was the role this thing?

You are asking for things that literally no journalistic entity follows, and for good reasons. Why not be completely transparent and demand named sourced for every story? What you want would be suicide for a website or newspaper. No one would care.
 
No, I'm just providing a demonstration of your intense hypocrisy.

What you are doing is taking my points out of the context of the argument. Here was my response to you the last time you pulled this nonsense. Respond to it.

You're actually, literally twisting her words here. For example, where does she say she does not do these things? I mean, you're making the most bullshit possible argument here, you're literally making shit up and pulling shit from thin air. The same thing goes for all of the subsequent quotes you use here, and the snarky "interpretations" you make where you disingenuously add in "but not me" when it's actually nowhere to be found in the text. This is so intellectually dishonest I don't even know what you think you were trying to accomplish.

I'm doing no such thing. If you want to make up a fantasyland reading of the article in which she is including herself as a member of the group she criticizes for not having a real culture beyond mindless consumerism, for being young men in mushroom hats queuing listlessly for posters who don't know how to dress or behave, or for being people who know nothing about social or professional interaction who cause real-life harm because of the online wars they "concoct," I can't stop you. Maybe you know Leigh Alexander's heart and it is pure. But this is simply not a reasonable reading of the text of the article.

So you are confirming she's saying she's a part of this thing she has been covering: "All of us." The key word being "us." Notice that here, at this point, she switches from her describing the group she's been within for years, suggests that lately things have changed (which she immediately gets to explaining), stops using "I" and stops using "us" and begins saying "you": "You should be deeply questioning your life choices if this and this and this are the prominent public face your business presents to the rest of the world." Now it's no longer about all of us, it's saying if this describes you, then you have some hard choices. And it goes on like that, saying if this describes you, you're actually a vocal minority in the sphere of people who play games, and are becoming irrelevant.

This is literally one pronoun in the entire article. It's about a third of the way in. It's obviously there for rhetorical rather than semantic effect, it's not even clear her intent is to say "all of us [as gamers]" as opposed to "all of us [as human beings]" or something similarly broad (I incline towards the latter reading: saying "all of us [as gamers] should be above this" doesn't make sense, since there's no particular normative reason why gamers should be above anything).

You're reading this "things have changed" narrative into the text. I see a "things have been changing and will continue to change" narrative, but I see no indication that all the criticisms of gamers and gamer culture that comprise the first third of the article, and that we're currently talking about, fit into this narrative. Similarly, your "if/then" thesis is a wishful confabulation: there is no if/then in the first part of the article where she's mocking slovenly mushroom-headed manchildren. Her readers begin the article either identifying or not identifying as the mushroom-headed manchildren, and there is no clear reason why they should stop identifying as them just because she tosses in a couple of conditionals. Indeed, later on in the article she explicitly tells the mushroomheads that it's not enough if all of them aren't harassers: their culture is still culpable. The culture she assigned them at the beginning of the article.

Simply put: there is no deictic shift from "we (inclusive of you)" to "you" in this article. Alexander makes it quite clear from the beginning of the article that the two groupings are "I ~ we (exclusive of you)" and "they -> you." The deictic shift is from "they" in the first part to "you" in the second - from describing to accusing. There is no shift whatsoever from first to second person. A single use of an arguably inclusive pronoun "us" a third of the way in doesn't come close to justifying your reading.
 
How have they failed in their goal? They have forced women out of the industry. Not all women obviously but some.

#GamerGate has despicable origins and a shameful history. Its image can't be redeemed by Boogie or anyone else.

How are the abused women going to feel while Boogie is promoting #GamerGate after all that's surfaced?
Looking at the IRC chat, it seems they had two specific women in mind. I didn't see any conspiracy to drive all women out of the industry, at least not from the evidence of the "rotten core" that we currently have sharing (though I haven't made a dent in the complete log that was also posted, just Zoe's twitter recap story thing). From what I've seen, the hidden campaign wasn't to send anyone death threats or to target Frank.

My understanding is that these were byproducts as the core sought to get "SJWs" fighting against normal gamers (which the gaming media assisted them with so smoothly one might be excused for thinking they were in on it) while 4chan attempted to doxx and hack Zoe and Anita to find some kind of damning evidence of personal wrongdoing that they would be shamed out of the industry.

Like I said, the full IRC logs are crazy long and I haven't got far in them, but this was the gist of the highlights Zoe posted on Twitter. And of course this depends on even subscribing to the belief that one group of people could control what was going on.

For the sake of this argument, if that was indeed the goal, it would appear that they failed on both counts. If spreading chaos and promoting in-fighting against the community in general were goals toward that end, it would certainly seem they were successful in those. But I still can't help but feel that the best way to turn it around would be to wield the campaign for something that ends up positive.

I see your point about targeted people might feel if they were to see it still promoted, but I don't see how it could possibly be irredeemable and I think there is something very positive in reclamation. We, as a society, spend a lot of time in fear of enough words already. Why add more to the list when it's possible to transform them? Finally, there is a practical concern. If the IRC logs don't actually cause the campaign to implode and people continue to move under it, I think the best thing to do would be to throw as many positive accounts under it as possible to mitigate any further damage.
 
This is something that I simply don't understand why it hasn't been raised more readily:

In situations where the barrier seems to be people being personally targeted for their activism (activism making statements on the realities of an issue, and stoking conversation about that issue), why aren't we seeing more mainstream uses of anonymous authorship? This applies half-and-half to the media outlets publishing them and the people composing them. The number of outlets already identifying the issue as key seems to be more than adequate. A general call for personal accounts of the mistreatment and exclusion to be published anonymously would achieve exactly their intent, and put no one at risk, and show the widest possible range of outlooks in those concerns.
 
1) "focusing on the hurt feelings of gamers" - I don't care about "hurt feelings" beyond the very reason why she ostensibly wrote the piece in the first place - to call out horrible behavior from misogynists and have fellow gamers rally to her cause. And if this wasn't her motivation, then I see no reason to cite it as a reasonable article that helps the anti-misogynist movement. I'm upset over her piece because I think it damages and slows the cause of bringing people together against misogyny, because it reads in a very inflammatory way despite how much of the article you want to claim is just rhetorical. Rhetorical devices can be, and typically are, inflammatory since people come to the assumption that the writer cares more about the strength of her message than the truth of her words. Politicians use rhetorical all the time, and you see how well that goes towards building trust.

I don't think the aim was to "have fellow gamers rally to her cause". The article was explicitly targeted at the industry. The aim seems to have been to convince the industry that it doesn't need to pander to 'gamers' any more.

2) "equating the two sides" - Again, the false dichotomy. There aren't two sides of "with us or against us." An article like Leigh's and other's could've brought more gamers into the fight against mysogynism had it been persuasive, but with the way it was written it's only provoking on-the-fence gamers to leap into the arms of #gamersgate and #notyourshield. If you can't see how these "two sides" are intricately connected with each other in a myriad of ways, then perhaps you're the one not seeing the situation clearly.

I take your point and agree with it.

But at least some of the people involved did see this as an us vs them issue. It became about two sides even though, as you say, it needn't have.
 
Looking at the IRC chat, it seems they had two specific women in mind. I didn't see any conspiracy to drive all women out of the industry, at least not from the evidence of the "rotten core" that we currently have sharing (though I haven't made a dent in the complete log that was also posted, just Zoe's twitter recap story thing). From what I've seen, the hidden campaign wasn't to send anyone death threats or to target Frank.

My understanding is that these were byproducts as the core sought to get "SJWs" fighting against normal gamers (which the gaming media assisted them with so smoothly one might be excused for thinking they were in on it) while 4chan attempted to doxx and hack Zoe and Anita to find some kind of damning evidence of personal wrongdoing that they would be shamed out of the industry.

Like I said, the full IRC logs are crazy long and I haven't got far in them, but this was the gist of the highlights Zoe posted on Twitter. And of course this depends on even subscribing to the belief that one group of people could control what was going on.

For the sake of this argument, if that was indeed the goal, it would appear that they failed on both counts. If spreading chaos and promoting in-fighting against the community in general were goals toward that end, it would certainly seem they were successful in those. But I still can't help but feel that the best way to turn it around would be to wield the campaign for something that ends up positive.

I see your point about targeted people might feel if they were to see it still promoted, but I don't see how it could possibly be irredeemable and I think there is something very positive in reclamation. We, as a society, spend a lot of time in fear of enough words already. Why add more to the list when it's possible to transform them? Finally, there is a practical concern. If the IRC logs don't actually cause the campaign to implode and people continue to move under it, I think the best thing to do would be to throw as many positive accounts under it as possible to mitigate any further damage.

Whether their goals were met or not, I really only see them getting something out of all of this. And that's, they were able to attack those that they don't want in the industry (and in the process, get some people to leave it). I would say that is more of a positive for them, then anything anyone else will get from this.

As I said, those who are genuinely concerned about corruption in the media won't get anything out of this (because the movement has no goals, and is aimless with regards to corruption). The social justice activist/media group pushing social issues get nothing out of this (in fact, some will probably walk away after the insane amount of abuse they've gotten). And this has only tied corruption/the mistrust of the media to these social issues the media pushes (so it's substantially taken a blow to social issues being presented in the media). Not to mention people are probably going to be burnt out after this, and won't want to hear about social issues for a while.

So looking at this from an overhead perspective, it really seems only the people that want to cause trouble and havoc for those they don't want in the industry, have gained anything from this. Women in the industry are the ones that are really going to be hurt substantially by all of this. Because in the end, nothing changes. And any kind of hope they had for their issues being discussed, probably took a blow from all of this.
 
I definitely agree that this has been a sad and tragic ordeal. It's super sad that we've lost voices and people being harmed.

Personally I imagine that the different groups and their preferences are going to fragment and split up away from each other. Leftist, socially conscious, alternative games and criticism will branch out and exist in its own segment without paying attention to what the conservative video game and the risk-free AAA industry will be doing. The specific subset of 'gamers' who don't want change or social justice or new experiences will still get their mass-produced products catering to their needs, I think (depending on the financial viability of course).

Regarding the 'mainstream' video games industry and culture: If they want diversity, if they want women, if they want better criticism, if they want to attract more people into this, then the major figures need to respond to this and take measures that reinforce and cultivate diversity and tolerance. Otherwise I am afraid that the mainstream video game culture and space will stagnate and deteriorate if nothing is done about all of this. Because this ordeal will in doubt have accomplished a severe chilling effect.

In such a scenario, I'm just afraid that the cultural values and experimental designs in the alternative domains will be co-opted by the cynically financially-driven publishers without any gratitude towards the original authors and idea-makers. But that's just me worrying :)

Honestly? Yes, it's sad that interesting voices have been forced out, but I suspect that a) even if Miyamoto himself joined an industry-wide condemnation of #Gamersgate, I don't think the harassment would have stopped, b) until Twitter gets an anti-harassment policy that isn't a complete joke (see also my first post in this thread with how I think Twitter should have announced their Facebook-esque filtering algorithms), it's going to be a major vector for harassment (in general) and c) the 4chan raid group probably all knew that harassment is harmful: that's precisely why they're doing it.

Harassment remains a proven and effective way of driving people off the internet.

Would this single incident prompt a skism of the "leftist" scene from the "conservative" industry (to use your terminology)? No, but I can see that the ongoing trend of harassment (AFAIK, this is like the fourth time in the last 12 months Zoe Quinn has got doxxed, or something equally as dumb as that) could prompt some from the "leftist" scene to at the very least leave Twitter, or perhaps stop making/talking about videogames. I suppose we also have the problem in that there isn't many "leftist" videogame developers that is anywhere close to financial success (pretty much the only person I think who would qualify would be Christine Love, hence her going "fuck the rules, I have money!" and going off to make a GameBoy Camera-esque mobile app and a bondage H-game), so there wouldn't be much in the way of development of that particular scene beyond what's present right now.

Or, the "extinction event" theorem proves to be right and the harassment dies down. I'm not sure about that, but it's nice to dream.
 
So just because it was coordinated and planned with a goal in mind doesn't mean it was coordinated and planned with a goal in mind enough?
We should let this thing die i think.

I'm saying, that just because a group of anon trolls think they're "Coordinating" it, that doesn't mean they really are.

I've been to a lot of message boards where people think they're controlling an issue and it's just their overblown egos.

---

The one thing I hope comes for this is, like others have said, services spring up that are twitter without the rampant harassment. Talking to people on both sides of the issue, the things they get most upset about are the rampant harassment of people, especially on twitter. There is a disgusting "Culture of trolling" on the internet that I really blame for how bad this whole thing has turned out.
 
Imru’ al-Qays;128725226 said:
What you are doing is taking my points out of the context of the argument.

First, did you or did you not deride people trying to discuss this issue by posting:

Imru’ al-Qays;128724098 said:
Every argument to the contrary thus far has been Leigh Alexander fanfiction

Second, is this or is this not the text of a post of yours from last night, speaking in the voice of Leigh Alexander (your "interpretation" of her article):

Imru’ al-Qays;128677565 said:
My job is games culture writer, but games culture is an embarrassment to me. It consists of doing things that I do not do.

Games culture is comprised of socially-stunted idiots, unlike me.

Gamers harass people on the internet and cause serious harm, unlike me.

Why am I even here with all you lowlives? I'm not like you.

You're a joke. You're the definition of not arguing in good faith. Your posts in the Tropes thread showed this, when Lime curated a ton of useful information, links, and authors talking about something you claimed to be interested in, but you immediately dismissed claiming not to have the time to read any of it--despite your monumental presence reading and responding to posts here, for full days over the last week or so. You have no purpose in these threads except to flex your argumentation muscles, that's it.
 
This is something that I simply don't understand why it hasn't been raised more readily:

In situations where the barrier seems to be people being personally targeted for their activism (activism making statements on the realities of an issue, and stoking conversation about that issue), why aren't we seeing more mainstream uses of anonymous authorship? This applies half-and-half to the media outlets publishing them and the people composing them. The number of outlets already identifying the issue as key seems to be more than adequate. A general call for personal accounts of the mistreatment and exclusion to be published anonymously would achieve exactly their intent, and put no one at risk, and show the widest possible range of outlooks in those concerns.

Anonymous writing is fairly rare in a general sense because of the scope for abuse and the need for transparency. Of the major news publications the only one I can think of off hand is the Economist but it's not too hard to work out who their authors are with a dash of Googling. I've read quite a few articles where the author has interviewed women gamers about online harassment and women in the gaming industry about crappy working conditions. It seems to get change though someone always has to take a public stand against those who resist change by standing up and saying 'this has to change', the grotesque abuse this engenders is a normal but depressing part of that it seems.
 
I'm not saying you shouldn't question it. Everything in this whole stupid affair is questionable, as it's tended to mostly involve rumor and repeated misunderstandings, like a lot of conspiracy theories. I'm just saying a few chat logs isn't "Well, Gamergate is over, obviously it's all been a trick by 4chan."

Exactly. /v/ can't even agree about what the hell this whole Gamergate thing is amongst themselves. How can you dismiss the whole movement based off what a small subset of the community thinks?
 
Like I said, the full IRC logs are crazy long and I haven't got far in them, but this was the gist of the highlights Zoe posted on Twitter. And of course this depends on even subscribing to the belief that one group of people could control what was going on.

All you have to do is Ctrl+F to see that Zoe cherry picked most of them. For ex:

https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/508193025558716417

In context, is obviously a joke:

Code:
Aug 27 04.22.41 <skeeet>	>Depression Quest, which went viral after Robin Williams' suicide
Aug 27 04.22.49 <skeeet>	what the actual fuck
Aug 27 04.26.07 <Agent_Cooper>	Yeah ans it was feminism that killed Robin Williams 
Aug 27 04.27.28 <Agent_Cooper>	Feminism has allowed women to financially abuse men by law.

Pretty much every single screenshot she took is out of context, if you look at the logs. And it has to be stressed, the people in this IRC channel released full, unedited logs so people could do that. Zoe hasn't. She's just posting snippets out of context.
 
Second, is this or is this not the text of a post of yours from last night, speaking in the voice of Leigh Alexander (your "interpretation" of her article):

Yes, because it is a reasonable restatement of her points, unlike your "I'm a mushroomhead like you" fantasy. And you don't have to agree with that particular reading for my overall point to be valid: she manifestly does not include herself among the people she is insulting in that article. If you disagree it's time to actually do some heavy lifting and make your case.

You're a joke. You're the definition of not arguing in good faith. Your posts in the Tropes thread showed this, when Lime curated a ton of useful information, links, and authors talking about something you claimed to be interested in, but you immediately dismissed claiming not to have the time to read any of it--despite your monumental presence reading and responding to posts here, for full days over the last week or so. You have no purpose in these threads except to flex your argumentation muscles, that's it.

Great, more misdirection. First it's "stop talking about the issue because it doesn't matter," now it's "stop talking about the issue because you didn't read Lime's linkspam in the Anita Sarkeesian thread."

If you can't actually present a convincing case for Alexander's article it's time to retire gracefully from the discussion.
 
Exactly. /v/ can't even agree about what the hell this whole Gamergate thing is amongst themselves. How can you dismiss the whole movement based off what a small subset of the community thinks?

how is it a movement when nobody can agree on what they want?

the argument that it's a smokescreen for abuse is the most plausible one i've seen so far, given the scattershot "issues" being hurled about and the actual results that have been achieved (read: women being hounded out of their careers)
 
Imru&#8217; al-Qays, I'm not going to argue with you over Leigh Alexander's article any more. I've seen more concerted effort put into this small Gamastura article than I've been seen conflicting interpretations and readings of Heidegger's obtuse writing in Sein und Zeit. Enough is enough.

I don't see a fruitful or rewarding outcome of discussing with you. You've proven in the Sarkeesian thread that you won't listen to reason, you move goalposts if you're rebutted, you won't stand corrected when your argument or rhetorical question is proven invalid, etc.. You will continuously spend an enormous amount of effort on trying to argue against, deflect and deny opinions that are advocating inclusion, socially aware criticism, diversity, or reflection on other types of perspectives for almost any reason you can conjure out of your magic debate hat. So no, I don't see much reason for me to spend my energy and time to reply to your constant grievances with a 500 words Gamasutra article.

And finally. If you still think, after literally thousands of posts, that it's more important to talk about what you call an "idiotic" article than it is to talk about how women are being threatened, how they have to leave their home, how they have to live with harassment, how they can't even have blogs or youtube channels or streams or Twitters or gender-specific nicknames on XBL/PSN/Steam because of fear of harassment, how their families and friends are called up and harassed, and how they finally have to exit their private online spaces because of all this bullshit. Then we cannot ever proceed with communication with one another, because we are fundamentally different in how we view the world and the people within it.
 
Exactly. /v/ can't even agree about what the hell this whole Gamergate thing is amongst themselves. How can you dismiss the whole movement based off what a small subset of the community thinks?

If the "movement" is really that seismically fractured, then it's not really a coherent movement at all, in which case, what value is there to be gained by attaching oneself to it?
 
Imru’ al-Qays;128726711 said:
Yes, because it is a reasonable restatement of her points, unlike your "I'm a mushroomhead like you" fantasy
Stop misrepresenting what I was saying. This is what I mean, you are not arguing in good faith. Stop shitting on this thread, if you actually want to talk to me like a reasonable person do so in PM. Don't create more garbage here.
 
how is it a movement when nobody can agree on what they want?

the argument that it's a smokescreen for abuse is the most plausible one i've seen so far, given the scattershot "issues" being hurled about and the actual results that have been achieved (read: women being hounded out of their careers)

There are a few common viewpoints that everyone shares amongst the group like with damn near every group that organizes for a cause. Not everyone has to agree about everything.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom