Relaxed Muscle
Member
Using the same tactics as your enemies like "cherry picking" conversations and conjectures is only fair I guess.
#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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Using the same tactics as your enemies like "cherry picking" conversations and conjectures is only fair I guess.
The first recorded use of #NotYourShield is in an archived /v/ thread.
Also, why does it matter that most 4channers are posting on the site? Most 4channers aren't involved in this shit. She just decided to screencap some how some of the people post when they're in IRC.
I know. I was reading that thread. Does that count as conspiracy? If it does according to you, are you implying that 4chan is incapable of being visited or used by people that are actual minorities and want to stand with the campaign?
Consider this: if people want to criticize game journalism, why have they not been targeting bigger-picture issues like press junkets, aggregation, low salaries, corporate sponsorship arrangements (did you know that GameSpot hosted that WoW reveal last month?), irresponsible rumor-monging, Metacritic, review scores in general, the general lack of appreciation for good writing/reporting, and many, many other problems? Why is the focus here on Zoe Quinn? It's hard to believe that this was ever a campaign formed for journalistic integrity when the targets have been so off, and in fact, if someone started a campaign today that set out to actually improve game journalism rather than target marginalized indie developers, I'd sure as heck be on board, assuming they had the right goals.
I wasn't being snarky when I said that. I assumed you were just using an expression, I didn't know you were quoting something, so I carried on with the expression.
I know there are problems in gaming. I know there are social issues outside of gaming. I know some of those social issues are bleeding into gaming. I don't care about picking up a baton to fight. Clear?
Actually I'd say it was about journalism sorta, but in the "shots give you autism" kind of way, where they found "proof" and rode the puppy into the ground.
Of course, I understand. That's cool.
It's a tragedy that she quit. Sadly, GamerGate has proven "games" is not a safe space for women.
When discussing those we lost, we have to be careful that while Anita and Zoe and many other brave women deserve our praise and admiration for putting their personal safety on the line to try and make a positive impact, we don't denigrate those people who aren't able to make those same sacrifices. I know that wasn't your intent, but it's still important to say.
I also think as #gamergate hopefully winds down, no one should make the mistake of thinking they didn't win. They absolutely did. The gaming community lost a lot of great voices, and there has been a chilling effect on future voices speaking up.
Fewer people making games means fewer games. Less diversity in gaming means fewer new ideas and perspectives. Not giving women a voice in games dev means there isn't much for women to relate to in games, stifling economic growth. Look to comics for what happens when a subculture systematically excludes women. Look to comic movies for what happens when women are included.
We lost so much, more than we can ever count or will ever know.
I think you're completely misinterpreting the point of those tweets.
Also, I occasionally post on 4chan.
Well, it's additional evidence that #gamergate started as a manufactured controversy to enable the harassment of women while using fake accounts - and real people who didn't know what was happening - as a smokescreen to deflect attention away from the harassment.
So if you already knew that, no, you're not missing anything.
What exactly in the IRC logs proves that it was a manufactured controversy?
TharpDaddy
Member
I might be missing something since i've not been following too closely, what female game devs have quit this week? I know Zoe Quinn got a lot of harassment, but i don't think she has quit making games. I know a few journalists have quit, but i follow quite a few woman game devs on twitter and i've not seen many mention this whole controversy, not to mention quit the scene because of it. I get what you're saying, but your message comes across like there's been a mass exodus of women in the game dev scene. Are there more beyond Phil Fish that have quit this week and i'm not aware of?
It's so transparent that I can't help but assume malicious intent from those who have been pushing this GamerGate nonsense. All those things have already been discussed a lot in the last few years both by readers and writers, the all too cosy relationship between publishers and gaming websites is a well trodden subject yet somehow a woman who put a free game on Steam that tackles an illness many of us are familiar with has been made the focus of this "corruption" by people who should know better because she might have had a relationship with a games journalist who wrote an article about her free indie game once (I don't know the specifics and frankly don't care).
I love that she made Depression Quest and I love that she exposed these misogynists. Good on her.
ArkkAngel007
Member
Thank you for posting tweets oldest to newest in descending order.
This has been how I've viewed the situation since the Zoe Quinn stuff broke out over Reddit from 4chan.
But also consider this: a lot of the things you've mentioned have been covered time and time again from NeoGAF to Reddit to even, to be fair, Kotaku. And the sad truth likely enough outside of the prevailing agendas already being discussed here? A lot of people are bored of talking about it and even just accept it for what it is given for how long these things have been more-or-less known to the community. Sometimes an event or article will jump-start something for a few days (IGN's 'forced out departure of ND staff' line, Gamespot's review of ZombiU, Sessler's Something on resolution doesn't matter), but overall it dies down rather quickly and is generally only brought up again in some other happening or as a meme.
Yet, somehow there is still enough of an issue with game's journalism that people just need some misleading Youtube video centered on Five Guys burger joint jokes to convince them that something is rotten in Denmark.
Which once again highlights how troubling these past few weeks have been for both the community and the media, regardless of stance.
No, not really. Much like the rest of the "corruption" talk, it's ridiculous to take action on something that only affects small indie devs. Plus the only difference between Patreon and donating to Kickstarter or buying a game directly is that it's a monthly payment. It doesn't have any further bias over simply buying or subscribing for a product with your own money.
Whoa whoa. Levi, you're completely misunderstanding what I meant. I was saying that she is still giving her 2 cents on games culture despite not wanting to be a part of games culture. Which I absolutely appreciate, of course.
I would never ever ask anyone to risk their personal life, their health, or anything they don't want to sacrifice for the sake of diversity or social justice. Like, I am incredibly impressed and almost in disbelief that Sarkeesian and Quinn and so many other women still remain in these spaces despite the rampant sexism.
EDIT: Corrected the original post as to avoid misunderstandings.
I'm reminded of Robert Florence's last article on Eurogamer about the Geoff Keighley doritos/mountain dew Halo bonanza along with other incredibly questionable stuff. A big part of the subsequent fallout was the insane amount of harassment that a games journo received because of their alleged corruption.
The journalist was a woman, of course.
But thank god we have GG to make up for not doing anything years ago.
What did they say that that journo did?
- Jenna Frank
- Mattie Brice
- Lana Polansky
And those are the ones that I know of. Think about all the ones who don't make their departure public.
this
Well, all of it? But here's a couple of the most directly relevant examples:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bw13iL6CQAAJhsC.png:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bw18fSLCUAA-fCo.png:small
They're outright saying they're manufacturing it to get other people to latch onto it.
"Conflict cannot survive without your participation." - Wayne Dyer
Also not completely neutral, just think my voice is lost in all of these different noises.
*sigh* It seems people don't know how to correctly focus their anger. Anger can be a great emotion if focused and done with clear thoughts, but unfortunately the emotions are exploding like grenades instead.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but:
1) Didn't ADAM Baldwin start the GamerGate hashtag? Up until then it was all over the place. All that did was give people a hashtag to post under to draw attention to it?
2) Does supporting a hashtag now mean that you are part of a manufactured controversy?
The Blue Jihad
Member
My decision to avoid picking sides has little to do with empathy or lack thereof. I find the whole situation to be immensely embarrassing and woefully pathetically counterproductive. If the situation were, say, about an oppressed population using social media to free themselves from the foot of a tyrannical government that has been gassing, torturing, kidnapping, etc, then I'm on the side of the righteous, for sure. No hesitation, no pause. When it's a bunch of children fighting with a bunch of professionals (and I use that term lightly), where everyone is losing their minds and engaging in ridiculous cheerleading...c'mon. I didn't swerve into GamerGate for that exact reason: It was all still part of this gigantic shitshow. All still part of these ludicrous theatrics. All still part of the biannual nightmare scandal schedule we lurch through time and time again.
My refusal to jump in, and my incredulity at any who would question my morals in light of that refusal, is indicative of my desire to not engage in cyclical bullshit. What are we to read from what you've quoted? That we need to choose a side? Otherwise, we're just letting the bad guys win? American politics is broken for a lot of reasons, but that line of thinking is a big contributing factor.
Plus, we both know that I'm just not doing nothing. I just prefer to do something *productive* rather than ensure the nonsense continues by adding to the cacophony.
It's important to me that women who quit aren't seen as less than those who stayed, and that if they choose to weigh in we don't judge them for changing their minds. Thanks for making it clear that was not your intent.
As far as which gamedevs quit, we'll never know how many women walked away or chose not to start in any career or community related to games.
Not all women are going to make themselves into targets by posting those sorts of decisions on (harassment-friendly) twitter, so I wouldn't take a lack of noise as proof that my fears are unfounded.
We can't ever know the true toll this coordinated attack on women in games took. But it's safe to say it's a lot more than three or so high profile women brave enough to publicly quit. And even if that was all the #GamerGate guys accomplished, isn't that tragedy enough? Doesn't your heart break knowing Jenn Frank had to leave because she wants her future children to be safe?
TharpDaddy
Member
I was more asking game devs. I know some journalists quit, which is really unfortunate and sad, but the post i quoted was talking about game development. As far as i'm aware the only game developer that quit due to all this was Phil Fish. I feel like if a game dev had quit the industry due to fear or etc. we would have heard of it, even if it was just a vague statement from some other developers in order to protect the individual's privacy, but that is pure speculation on my part. My point is that, while this has been a really terrible situation and week, it doesn't seem like it has caused a lot of women to quit game development, which is a good thing. It seems like it was a handful of people receiving the brunt of the attacks and the other 99% carrying on as usual and making games.
That's fine. I'm sorry if I am demanding too much and people are free to do what they want - it's just that some people usually say they don't care about an issue or think it's not important, yet will trounce into a thread and state their opinion on why X doesn't matter despite of the fact that people are visibly harmed.
I'm not sure if your quote applies to this situation, as not participating won't deter the harassers nor is speaking up against a misguided campaign (Gamergate) detrimental to the situation.
Lalalandia
Member
Nope in one of the other IRC logs they talk of drawing him into the row by using fake SJW accounts to rile him
IMO Yes. If there are issues you want discussed start again with a new tag, a snarling minority on 4chan were able to start one the normal majority whom they ensnared should certainly be able to
Is there any proof that Adam Baldwin was tweeted at by fake accounts to try and lure him into starting the GamerGate hashtag? I heard he was on a radio show where he said why he waded into the whole issue, but I dunno where that was.
Once again, where is the proof that it is a snarling minority and not the actual majority?
Levi said:
It's incredibly tragic and it really ruins my mood. The chilling effect is surely in full force, but this has been going on for so long. Samantha Allen wrote a good article on how online spaces are unsafe and harmful for especially women.
I am afraid this shit will also prove to the harassers that their tactics work and that they have people ready to be manipulated if it is in the cause of defending their hobby.
He did start the hashtag, but not the controversy, because this was an extension of what has happening over the previous week or so involving Zoe Quinn, Phil Fish, and Anita Sarkeesian. Adam Baldwin's involvement was and is explicitly anti-feminist. The people in the IRC chatlog (and others) then took great pains to promote and spread the use of that hashtag, insisting it's about ethics rather than feminism (thereby getting reasonable but clueless people on Twitter to join in, while the campaign harassment against anyone perceived as a 'social justice warrior' continued), all the while saying "don't tell me you actually buy the corruption in journalism thing."
Throughout their conversations, despite constantly complaining about "SJWs," they're heavily invested in finding ways to deflect criticism of the movement as anti-feminist. This includes the creation of the #notyourshield tag (e.g. "to cause infighting and doubt within SJW ranks"), and heavily investing in TFYC bringing "good PR" because they're "trying to keep it professional" and "playing it smart."
This is, again, all pretty cut and dry from the chatlogs.
For your second question, supporting a hashtag as a random person on Twitter doesn't mean much of anything. Like, I'm not sure what you mean by "supporting a manufactured controversy" - it doesn't mean they're knowingly supporting a manufactured controversy, or that they don't believe what they're saying, or anything else. What they are unintentionally and unknowingly doing is, again, providing the smokescreen the people who manufactured the controversy want. I want to reiterate that they're not at fault, and may actually have good points about ethics in games journalism. But the current tag is definitely toxic.
Lalalandia
Member
I was inexact in my phrasing, I hope I live in a world where the raving bigots who started the #GamerGate thing as an extension of the Quinnspiracy stuff are not most of the folks who have used the tag. There have been a lot of posters in here who have condemned the harassing behaviour but defended the tag (including yourself) who seem quite reasonable. However given the nonsense that GamerGate is now synonymous with I'd advise breaking with the GG tag and come up with something else.
I believe that quote un quote game journalists are not real journalists because a real journalist looks for stories and at least 2 sources to tell a story. I use to read many stories back in the day but when you sign NDA's you become a glorified spokes person for any company not just games. I know they have a job to do, so I'm not going to attack them personally because I'm an adult, but I take what they say with no credibility because most of them are writing what is told or shown to them, instead of going out and doing the dirty work to get the real stories. I read and watch people who go after the so called truth on the topics that interest me.
ArkkAngel007
Member
There isn't, though I doubt the actions are of a majority. But generally when I see things like 'tiny minority' and such, I see it as a defensive maneuver to not be viewed as being part of it without just saying they're not. Not that I'm saying that was why Lalalandia and some others have said so in this thread, but things like 'tiny minority of feminists/GAFers/Republicans' and such tend to come off as trying to cover the issues and put their position forward.
Sad truth is we don't know how many people truly think in a similar fashion or would just jump on the bandwagon like so many did on Reddit and other communities. I personally know a lot of people that, while I would never consider them terrible individuals, would likely have jumped behind the Five Guys and conspiracy stuff surrounding Zoe Quinn and not give a second thought.
The point being is that it doesn't matter how many people think one way or another. What does matter is that the problems are there and people need to do what they can to address them.
Do you expect everyone in the enthusiast press to be a hardboiled reporter from a movie?
What real stories in the video game world haven't been reported?
ArkkAngel007
Member
Not only what Jason asks, but where is the proof that is all that is happening and what were these 'fabled' stories of shining virtue that are any different than the coverage of the Sega lawsuit over ACM or Geoff Keighley's The Final Hours of [Game] series that have lead to many revelations such as the situation behind Titanfall's exclusivity and how Mac Walters and Casey Hudson approached the ending of Mass Effect 3 with little more than a closed door and a napkin? The old features on Polygon? A lot of the interviews and features done surrounding Bioshock Infinite? How are those not real stories?
If you bring up the days of printed games coverage, you'll likely be in for some rude awakening given they were in an environment that was nowhere near as transparent as we get now. And NDAs have been around forever, not something that was invented the same time that Microsoft "invented" exclusivity agreements in marketing.
This isn't even really what Gamersgate is about.
It probably does since the gap between the two sides of the argument is widening, little effort is being done in the mending department. Both have an inflexible stance that they believe to be the words of God and their unwillingness in hearing each other out and make efforts in moving forward.
I really don't think much needs to be said here since I've been following this thread rather closely (albeit not contributing) and people who I've found their opinions akin to mine tried voicing theirs, arguing and reasoning rationally, they made little progress. I still see we are largely hung up on the harassment issue.
And I always thought that it should be without doubt that all the "reasonable" people connected to the whole event agreed that harassment, threats, misogyny, etc and a lot of other similarly despicable terms are just unacceptable. Yet we're still circling around that and ethics. It just looks like the Mastercard logo, two circles keep colliding together, stuck and never seem to make any sort of progress.
So why bother? especially since the atmosphere is so unfriendly when anyone comes into the discussion will end up at one group's bad side and will be extremely and unfairly criticized and demonized for it. I'm slowly distancing myself from the fray too. This has all turned too ugly, too fast. How many people we lost so far? Three?
You wouldn't necessarily hear about it in that a lot of those who would be affected by this are unknown or future devs. Like Levi mentioned, there'll be less voices speaking up in the future out of fear, and "speaking up" here frankly includes "just making a game" for all the harassers care. We've lost voices and future voices, and though I'm extremely thankful this looks like it's winding down now, it wasn't nearly fast enough (though nothing would be, really).
TharpDaddy
Member
I would go further and say the targets of the harassment were targeted as part of the movement, and are not part of the press.
I don't much care what the useful idiots think the plan is if the organizers have disgusting motivations. I know the complaints, i cannot be moved to join, or even entertain, this movement.
Wasn't the controversy about a DMCA takedown notice and the dev's perceived attacks on a forum for depressed people? Then everything else was added onto, including but not limited to perceived censorship on major subreddits and gaming related websites?
How is Baldwin's involvement explicitly anti-feminist? And does that mean Sommers' involvement is explicitly pro-feminist?
From what I recall reading the threads at /v/, there didn't really need to be a great push to get people to use the hashtag, as the issue was losing momentum until Baldwin used that hashtag and it "reinvigorated" them and gave them a central position to focus on.
Also, where did the vast majority of the people who support this movement say "don't tell me you actually buy the corruption in journalism thing."? Or, where is the actual proof that there are any leaders at all in this entire thing and they said that?
Does SJW equal feminist? Do you have to be one to be the other? And from what I gathered while reading the /v/ threads, the "Not Your Shield" hashtag started because people were fed up of being labelled as exclusively white, male racists who wanted women and minorities out of their "club". The tag showed that it's not just white, male gamers, but people from every walk of life. Heck, I wanted to take part in it as I myself am a Pakistani who has suffered from sexual abuse and depression and am not a white, male racist just because I play games. I wanted to take part in it as I was getting tired of everyone who supported the call for ethics and end of corruption in gaming being labelled as some white, male racist. It was basically an "You're either with us or with the terrorists" thing and that never sat right with me. I didn't participate in the end though. I barely post anything anywhere, whether it's Reddit, GAF or 4chan.
And I remember the TFYC from Reddit when there were bans and deletions flying around everywhere. That issue came from Reddit and because of the serious accusations levelled against people, a lot of posters on Reddit AND /v/ supported their cause to help what they said was "women in gaming". I think seeing anything else in that would in itself constitute a conspiracy.
What nonsense is it associated with?
duessano
Member
See "games", are a safe space for everyone, it's the internet that isn't. There are successful women in gaming who haven't been harassed at all and more women from around the world will continue to play, create and enjoy gaming.
This isn't some type of game with win or loss conditions. When people are harassed, no one wins.
moondoggerr
Banned
Games journalists are (mostly) the equivalent of movie critics or car columnists. They aren't Woodward and Bernstein. When Elvis Mitchell was writing movie columns for the NYT he wasn't getting Clint Eastwood on deep background and independently verifying Clint's claims on Letters from Iwo Jima.
Lalalandia
Member
Really? I'm starting to doubt your good faith here. This entire thread is filled with multiple examples of the hounding people are receiving, are you seriously saying you believe that is entirely coincidental to the GG tag?
This is where I'm at too. Watching this thing unfold, I'm reminded at every turn about how being on the internet somehow makes people so much more prone to bitterness and attacking people. I think the biggest lesson of this whole thing is that we need to find ways to stop that. It's insane that people are still taking pop shots on Twitter at people for things they said weeks ago about all this.
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