Bobby Roberts
Banned
In the interest of fairness, I feel someone should acknowledge that Steven actually donated 100 bucks to Child's Play based on his earlier statements in the thread.
#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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Ya, it is a shame someone like him wasn't the one who initially got things started. He seems to actually care for people, outside his purview.
MHWilliams
Member
Yeah, that was very cool. I'd donate, but I just moved (security deposit, ho!) and I'm a game journalist... so I'm broke as shit.
timetokill
Banned
This is a good post, and certainly gets at the heart of what I'm saying. Lime, I read your post but I figured this was a better response point. Hope you don't mind. Also I just spent the day watching college football so I'm going to do my best at trying to stay coherent.
I essentially agree -- it's not worth furthering #GamerGate in particular due to its poisonous origins -- but at the same time I guess I'm just more cynical about things in general. Maybe a better discussion can be had around a different movement or tag.
But I generally think that significant change can't happen without significant conflict. If #GamerGate had anything it was that, obviously -- and in that fervor it brought out some good things out of all the bad that I have to wonder if they'd be addressed otherwise. I think it put a focus on how toxic the relationship between game journalists and enthusiasts is, and I've read a few stories that suggest that some people have given some self-reflection due to that. I think that clarifying things like Patreon donations (which I ultimately think was probably a good move on Kotaku's part) wouldn't have happened without such a vocal backlash. I think it was eye-opening for a lot of people to see how "gamers" are viewed in a large part of the journalism/writing community. In a similar way, the aftermath in Ferguson was also home to malcontents and racists and such, but it also forefronted the issue nationally in a way that a less divisive scenario would not have.
So whether it's cynicism overall or searching for a silver lining in the shit cloud that is/was #GamerGate, I'm just hoping that there can be some actual good progress made so that what some people have had to go through was not completely for nothing. But in short, yeah, I think that any sufficiently large group is going to have a bunch of shitheels in it and will always contain some of their repugnant "flavor."
So to answer, yeah, the short of it is that I don't think any movement that is impactful enough to actually drive meaningful change in the community will take place without this kind of harassment being part of it. But I think that discussion is going to happen anyway, that change has to happen when things are this toxic, so while it isn't fair in the slightest, it's simply going to suck for a lot of women in this space for the foreseeable future. We can't control it and monitor it, and the "unfairness" about being able to have the conversation is probably going to simply spark more misogyny.
I think that ANY kind of progress has collateral damage, as you spoke about. These things have growing pains. People always fight against change just as people fight for it. If they didn't, progress wouldn't need a movement.
I know I'll probably never live it down but having browsed the twitter photo album of gamersgate and all the pictures of people holding their proof tags up saying "Hey look, I'm not the sort of gamer you think I am, I am female/hispanic/black/asian/feminist/cancer survivor and I don't fit your sterotypes." I'm having a lot of trouble thinking ill of the people in that hashtag.
It looks to me like the vast majority of it is gamers aggrieved they're being written off and dismissed like they don't exist or pigeon holed into categories they don't belong to.
Looking back over the sort of assumptions people have been making towards them in this thread I'm finding it nearly impossible to say they're wrong. Considering the hundreds of thousands of tweets there, and I've barely run across anything toxic in the last hour...
Looking between the vast majority of that feed and Leigh's article (and feed) calling people names... It's very hard to shift that.
I dunno man. The assassination of someone's personal and beloved identity is the main bone I had to pick with this whole mess too. It may not be the perfect vehicle, but they've got more then half a decent point. Even if you think it's not worth joining, it's probably worth at least *listening* to. I mean, listening is one of the key elements of understanding, empathy and kindness to fellow (wo)man isn't it?
It looks to me like the vast majority of it is gamers aggrieved they're being written off and dismissed like they don't exist or pigeon holed into categories they don't belong to.
Looking back over the sort of assumptions people have been making towards them in this thread I'm finding it nearly impossible to say they're wrong. Considering the hundreds of thousands of tweets there, and I've barely run across anything toxic in the last hour...
Looking between the vast majority of that feed and Leigh's article (and feed) calling people names... It's very hard to shift that.
I dunno man. The assassination of someone's personal and beloved identity is the main bone I had to pick with this whole mess too. It may not be the perfect vehicle, but they've got more then half a decent point. Even if you think it's not worth joining, it's probably worth at least *listening* to. I mean, listening is one of the key elements of understanding, empathy and kindness to fellow (wo)man isn't it?
I like Boogie, but he has no message right now, there is no solution offered, and very basic definitions of what is good and what is bad, of course women getting harassed is bad, of course people getting calling neck beards its hurtful, the problem remains on a lack of understanding that the articles by Alexander is the climax of years of almost daily harassment with each written article and certain unintentional callousness by choosing to support a movement created as an excuse to continue this crusade to shut down voices (with great success) just because he felt he and many got insulted.
Its okay Boogie to feel insulted, but again, by making this vague mentions of being nice and clean he is telling internet assholes to calm down, but also he essentially saying that people like Leigh should complain about inclusiveness only in the way HE approves, how HE feels this group that doesn't include him should proceed, how HE feels others should react after getting rape treats and how HE thinks they are wrong. Its extremely paternalistic and again, im not saying that this is on purpose, in fact most people are not aware of it.
Just look at all the reactions towards the riots on Ferguson, of course there is some extreme bigot bullshit said by people and even cops, but that can be easily dismissed and punished, the problematic begins with people that are mostly ignorant and unaware of the all of it, they simply see 15 minutes of footage and pass judgement on the rioters by saying "Yeah, I might not know much about system racism, police abuse or whatever, and it sucks that black kid got shot, but you are literally as bad as the cop because you choose to do rioting. You are a failure to my eyes".
Did you just compare segregation and unequal rights... And MLK to Leigh and her belief that "traditional gamers" in so many words are bigots in a large degree? MLK? Really?
Señor Coyote
Banned
MHWilliams
Member
Señor Coyote;128802167 said:
Blog. That's like counting BitMob as VentureBeat.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Again - I don't think that comparing the voluntary decision to engage in gaming as a hobby or pastime should be compared directly to race, sexual orientation, or religion. It's an inappropriate comparison to make. I've seen it happen quite a bit throughout this discussion (not just this thread specifically) and it's never achieved the desired effect.
Señor Coyote
Banned
Whoops my bad, this is why you shouldn't instantly re-post links straight from twitter.
Of course, do the people that read The Art of War are exclusively interested on its value as a document about finding the most effective way of fighting the Zhou dynasty from ancient China?
In large part I think you're right, but I didn't quantify my point in terms of it being a problem endemic to all or even a large portion of headlines or articles. It is still something that concerns me, and that I often find frustrating. I don't know, I kind of wish we could just make a general games journalism criticism/discussion thread, because I feel like all of this stuff gets really muddled when we have to lump it all in together with all of the social media drama. Some things are interrelated, some things aren't, and I think there are people on all ends arguing about many different aspects.
I agree with most of what you said, even the Gruber stuff and the point behind it. The feeling with Gruber is a lot like how I feel about the Giantbomb guys, and used to feel about the 1up glory days. And the economics of the field in general are absolutely at the heart of a lot of my concerns. Unfortunately (--or fortunately, who knows?) I think it's likely only going to continue down this path until what was once traditional journalism is replaced largely by a combination of direct-to-customer media/announcements from publishers and developers themselves, and highly specialized, personality-driven opinion from people on YouTube, Twitch, or people like GB. This scenario also itself presents a lot of problems, but maybe as trust is established it will eventually become something closer to what the audience is looking for.
Nah, that's fair though. Sis equivocated, and the stinger line, "Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection." is totally apt.
Everyone who shrugs at this stuff, everyone who says "can't we just get back to playing games" or "can't we just walk away from this?", everyone who thinks this is a "fad" or passing issue--that it'll blow over tomorrow--is baffling to me. This is the pot boiling over, getting the boil under control doesn't solve it.
I linked way back on the first page of this thread to a pod featuring Leigh talking about #ganergate in which she told a story about giving some kind of talk, and a woman asked her afterward "so my daughter is in fifth grade and is interested in making games but I've heard it's ugly for women in this field, do you think it'll be better by the time she's in industry, or should I discourage her?" And Leigh couldn't give an optimistic answer. I probably wouldn't either. Because as long as otherwise good people aren't taking a good cause to heart, it won't get solved.
So you are saying you know 100% what the problems are and how to fix them? Unequal rights and segregation were pretty cut and dry on how to fix. Pretending to define "moderate" in this situation, and then compare it to that... Calling an end to twitter trolls and online harassing, and then saying "MLK said this" is pretty ridiculous. If we were talking about hiring practices in teh game industry taht would be one thing, but this is about twitter and social media trolls and how to deal with it. How is that comparable to you?
So you think anecdotal evidence is comparable to unequal rights and segregation? And that people who disagree with a way in fixing it is... moderate, in the same way MLK was talking about?
neurosisxeno
Member
Señor Coyote;128802167 said:
Something tells me writing isn't his field of expertise. I also like how he just gets casually sexist at the end.
I like you Boogie!
And I agree a lot of these articles are rather loud and denouncing. However...if we want to see games grow as a well rounded medium (From good ole' fashion head ripping to high brow artsy hipster stuff)...it is very very important to have craAaAaaaAAzy articles like these. That's the kind of critical critique you'd find in more mature forms of media. That's the kind of critique you see in high art, in movies, books and historical arts and shows.
Those ways of looking at things with a critical eye in a bijillion different ways (the feminist eye, the humanist eye, Christian eye, Buddhist eye, Western eye, Eastern eye, Capitalist eye, Socialist eye, Individualist eye, Collectivist eye etc) ...is what gets people thinking and gets people trying to do new and more interesting things. This is literally how every form of media evolves. You can find similar parallels to the history of animation...or even the history of art from the 1800s up until now.
That's how new movements are born and that's how media transforms and diversifies. Whether you realize it or not, even the most ancient songs and stories had an "agenda." Early psychologists eventually saw that certain themes or tropes in stories drew from the collective unconsciousness of every culture. By unconscious, I mean all of these stories have "sexist," gynophobic undertones that are invisible to people who are not aware of what sexism is. Because...well sexism is the norm for our consciousness. When you look at the collective mind of gaming...you see a VERY consistent role for women.
These games aren't going to make you slap or rape a woman. However they might make you have more conservative or archaic thoughts on...something like sexual harassment or stalking. Gaming might just make you exceptionally ignorant or even hostile to feminine ideologies. But, no...Skyrim is not going to make you evil. It's just going to help enforce harmful ideas that you might already have, but are unaware of.
endless dave
Member
Yes, true, as shown by how well adjusted America is on issues of race and inequality
The fact that you actually believe that unequal rights and segregation issues are a "were" and not an "are" tells me everything I need to know, how can I explain that the main issue here is lack of understanding on the subtlety on this situation when you actually believe that 1. MLK's words were exclusively about black people being able to sit when they wanted and cant see any other application of those words nor other maxims. 2. You think those issues are a thing of the past.?
As you have proven, its a matter of not knowing enough but still passing judgement because someone failed to meet your standards as an outsider.
Anyone who thinks this event is anything less than heinous bullshit isn't moderate. That's the point. They're part of the problem.
You're wrong about "equal rights being cut and dry to fix". If you think they're "fixed" today, you're exactly the privileged person Dr King was referring to.
It's also I think wrong to draw a line between industry hiring practices and this harassment. The root problem is the same. The harassment affects the desirably of employment and discourages applicants (there in that Leigh pod is at least more-than-zero parents for whom this bad situation is obvious), plus there's no question that more than zero of the clowns here do in fact work in games or will interact with girls considering working in games and thus discourage them.
Are you moving the goal posts here? I've actually talked about hiring practices and how I think it is a problem. Last I checked this was about twitter people and 4chan(#gamergate). And are you comparing legal segregation and unequal rights, as the same thing in this situation? You aren't making sense. You have not brought anything to the table with the context you compared MLK, other then the hashtag.
endless dave
Member
No, see, I firmly disagree with this. If there are vile participants acting in bad faith, I have no need to treat them kindly. This sort of weird, neutered, "Less Wrong" tance only aims to give safe harbor to the trolls. It's the same sort of logic that leads to "well let's see about the other side." Lines should be drawn on issues like these and I see no reason to extend courtesies to people who cross those line. I have no reason to sink to their level to excise them from a debate/movement/my life.
The fact that you are trying to twist the talking point is insane. It was legal to segregate and black people legally didnt have equal rights, if you inferred I was talking about anything other then that, that is on you. That is not the same thing as "racism being fixed" what in the fuck? Are you so desperate to feel right, that you are willing to twist something liek legal segregation and equal rights to this?
And what are you talking about in the heinous bullshit? The death threats and the shit tweets? Who in here was defending that? Again, not making sense.
I reject that idea that this tweet is 'attacking' anyone simply because it uses the hashtag gamergate
In fact, I would invite you to find a single instance of me 'attacking' another human being in my entire internet existance, other than in jest by saying something sarcastically. I'll donate 100 dollars to your favorite charity if you are successful.
I am largely unfamiliar with the writings of Jenn Frank and have no real opinion about her, but my heart absolutely goes out to her and what has happened to her is very unfortunate.
The funny thing is the trolls on the other side are now using #gameovergate to do the same thing they're accusing the other side of.
The #gameethics tag actually has some things of merit from what I've seen about some of the injustices game devs face, which include actual misogyny and corruption. Of course I expect that to be taken over by trolls soon- hashtags are like a bridge for trolls to sit under.
endless dave
Member
The larger point JDSN is making is not directly comparing MLK and civil rights to #gamergate. The quote is referring to the ineffectual nature of moderates (who in that case were- and in #gamergate are as well- white men) in trying to evoke "order" and civility in a strife that, at its very core, is lacking any way to achieve that. Order for the moderate is compromise. In many issues, there needs to be no compromise.
Dude, did you even read the rest of my post that contextualized the quote? I mean, the quote was not necessary but I threw in there because its eloquent and the bolded bits were incredibly relevant. I honestly dont know what to tell you, have you heard of maxims? metaphors? adages? Im not sure how can you think that im literally comparing Leigh to a black dude from the 60s, or a bunch of blog posts to a civil rights movement.
Im comparing apathy disguised as concern of stability, even at the cost of other's voices, which is why I talked about Boogie, which you would have noticed if you had read my post. Stop moving the goalposts.
And I'm saying that is that it sounds insulting to compare this, to what black people had to go through and still go through.
3 posts cracked down on it, because they were trying to twist the talking point to compare the stuff black people go through to internet harassment, cause that is how you intellectually talk about something, clearly. Black people legally have equal rights, I'm not sure what you are talking about. Racism is different beast and that is why they don't experience the same opportunities as other minorities and white people.
Changing laws improved but didn't even almost sort of solve racial bullshit in America. Addressing harassment visible twitter harassment may improve but absolutely won't solve misogynist bullshit in games.
Because, lots of--even "good" or sympathetic people--refuse to recognize how insidious the problems are.
We have equal rights...
We're just extremely disadvantaged for socioeconomic reason. There's a difference. Same for women.
The only difference between racism and sexism is that people can justify sexism a lot better than they can justify racism. I'm a "WoC" so I guess I can say, legally I can do whatever I want but because of cultural perceptions I have to be wary of a lot of subtle discriminatory situations that are ingrained in our culture.
endless dave
Member
This needs to be repeated
The issue is both sides on this issue don't believe in any compromise, and too much no compromise leads to war and casualities.
Sometimes moderation is needed, and sometimes extremism is needed.
I'm not going to charge up a hill for the SJWs or the misogynists on this one- I'm sick of both groups.
People with power and influence restricting other people from gaining that power influence is the same if the powerful are men or if they're whites.
Well, thats kinda silly, the words are there to use and I can apply them in the relevant way I want, I dont think the black community(TM) will mind that a minority brings up a quote to point out what he considers a behavior that has also been used to put them down when they get all "uppity". Now you have made this offtopic.
I dont like false equivalences and I dont share the idea that since both groups have radical elements to it both are equally bad, I apologize for not being willing to put on the same category people with hurt feelings to people having to move because of death treats. It jsut seems reductive and lazy.
The reasons aren't purely economic. They are institutionalized at multiple levels. Same for women.
edit: I just mean that this often makes it sound almost circumstantial.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
So you put the two groups as equal opposites, with no regard for what they stand for. So, what in your opinion do the misogynists and the SJWs want and what is the equal compromise between them?
Yes? There are a whole host of reasons for socioeconomic differences, simplifying it as a MLK talk about law makers dragging their feet for equal rights I don't think is appropriate. Hiring practices I think do need to change, as I actually made a topic dedicated to that, talking about minorities... that completely died. Apparently people truly cared. Besides that though pulling the MLK card I think is just inapplicable, because when Pink identified s/he self as a moderate, I highly doubt they meant "it's ok to harass people on the internet to illegal degree's". Most people, I think, when they say that is that there is room for debate to fixing the problem.
endless dave
Member
The "SJWs" (using that term sort of shades your whole outlook honestly) out there are trying to protect people from being targeted or given undue favor based for their gender. The misogynists hate women. Do they honestly disgust you both equally for you to not take a side?
Sure it's "different", but try and tell Michael Brown he has a right to a fair and speedy trial, that he has a right not to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment.
endless dave
Member
Of course there is "room for debate." What do you think this entire thing is?
you...you think she doesn't know the differences?
I thought that was MY point, in regards to the quote.
Economic would be like, how fathers are missing from the home, causing some really bad consequences for the children, both socially and economically.
Social reasons, meaning we aren't given the same expectations or opportunities. We're not given the reassurance or trust. That's basically the key to everything in life. I am a successful adult, but I wouldn't be if my parents weren't nurturing and supportive, if my school wasn't clean and if my college wasn't awesome. In the media, black women are portrayed as loud, undesirable, slutty, opinionated, ugly, lazy and too much work to be around. That's the picture painted for Americans and the globalized world.
This has made it embarrassing for me to be classified as a "woman of color." That's just one social factor that's a bit damaging for how people perceive me. I have to work extra hard because of stuff like that. When I see people crying about gamers being villianized, I can't help but roll my eyes a bit. There are harder things to fight through in life.
I'm glad I'm a girl with dark skin and not a boy with dark skin. In terms of being a minority, being female is a much higher privilege.
You don't seem to. Calling fixing racial discrimination "cut and dry" is so far off base it's a joke.
I'm sure. In either case, not as much privilege as y'all deserve. In the best world, nobody has to consider their "race" or their "gender" before acting.
moondoggerr
Banned
This x 1000.
I know it does- but I do use both terms perjoratively. I probably should have used MRA instead of misogynist, but the two are equivalent in my eyes.
What you're describing to me is someone who wants equality, not a SJW.
A SJW to me, is a person who is more interested in demeaning and attacking the other side than promoting equality- and there are plenty of those out there- I see some of that in my twitter feed- and it's disturbing to me because there are often the same folks I agree with politically 99% of the time.
You can tell the difference when you challenge their conclusions. A person who wants what's right will try to reason with you, and can accept that you think the way to get there might be different. A SJW won't accept any deviance from the party line. It's like dealing with tea partiers.
I want more women in gaming, I want more games to cater to women. What I don't want is folks telling me constantly what I like makes me a misogynist, and what I don't want is someone who demands I toe their party line or they will call me a misogynist. That's a surefire way to make me disregard anything you are saying.
So yes, as I describe them, I do find both groups equally disgusting.
Note: the folks who are doing threats- they go beyond misogyny into criminal scum category. That's something different.
You got me Barakke, you win, I think racism is fixed. FFS
I am not accusing you of being evil or anything like that, im just saying that the position Boogie (and you a bit) is taking is based on ignorance and maybe a bit of self-defense. People finding something problematic about your quote arent calling you racist or twisting your words, they are pointing out that you dont see fully informed on the issue and thats good, you cant know everything about everything.
Sorry if I seemed abrasive with my first response. Also, there are still laws that target black people.
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