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[Nephrahim]

So?

So he was right.

 

[Mumei]

I don't know if power feminism can be so cleanly described, when Summers and Wolf have an antagonistic history as far as I know (in context of "Beauty Myth" IIRC). Wolf seems incompatible with American conservatism in a few ways.

On one hand, there is a clear delusion in how power feminism generally deals with the facts that frame a sexist culture or a rape culture, but I also see virtues in an anti-victim-hood point of view in its life-affirming and anti-ressentiment (i.e., Nietzschean) aspects. I can understand why it (if not in parts) is appealing even to self-proclaimed feminists, especially those who've acquired a decent amount of power and status for themselves (i.e., privileged). (EDIT: It could even be boiled down to individualism.)

I almost mentioned The Beauty Myth, which notably was published three years before Wolf started espousing power feminism. In that work, her analysis is pretty directly contradictory to what power feminists usually argue (i.e. the problems women face are a matter of individual choices; The Beauty Myth makes a point about normative standards). I'm not sure that this is a point of contradiction. And yes, power feminism seems to be most popular with white women in the upper or middle-class who haven't experienced sexual assault; this would make sense as it is women like that for whom the message of individual power would most resonate.

 

[antigoon]

But art remains a highly nebulous concept, if not a nonsensical one at times. People are going to have disagreements on the value of social commentary in criticism (which also happens in these other mediums), but it has nothing to do with art, because nothing has anything to do with art. I'd say the same thing if you tried to invoke the divine and said "Are games holy?" (EDIT: It is also worth noting that there is underlying effect in connecting social commentary and art; games more fitting of social commentary will become more "artistic", which just another abuse of that weird brand to provide status.)

For the record, I'm much more interested in the secondary arguments that arrive from this discussion. I don't really care about the call for more integrity.

Sorry - the integrity point wasn't directed at you but was just a general statement.

Sure, social commentary doesn't "have anything to do with art" intrinsically. I don't really want to get into defining art, either.

But i don't think it's a coincidence that storytelling media frequently comes along with social commentary that attempts to unpack the explicit and implicit messages within. That games criticism has started to do this is just a sign of the medium evolving and getting up to speed with its peers. The call for separation seems misguided.

 

[Kadayi]

I do believe though that if you are devisive and insulting in pursuit of a good cause you tend to become a liability to that cause. At best you play right into the opponent's hands, at worse you actively inhibit discussion and exchange of ideas.

This is why I feel those gamers are dead articles and harassing inoccents using the #gamergate hashtag is wrong. Not an innocent? Call out an abuser? Great, whatever you like. Assume an abuser by a wide swath demographic? I think that's a mistake in the short and long term.

Agreed. In truth though I don't think Leigh Alexander and her ilk were looking for a discussion versus a rise out of people, naturally hoping it would play into their hands to point the finger at how terrible these gamers are, of course as with all of these things they comically underestimated the diversity of the gamer audience and how people would react.

Now of course we're in the state where 'everyone's a terrorist' but regardless of how things pan out the damage to the reputation to large tracts of the gaming press is already done.

Much mirth at Hoff Sommers being labelled an anti feminist. Equity feminism has been around for quite a while. She's about as anti-feminist as Camille Anna Paglia.

 

[Sneds]

I do believe though that if you are devisive and insulting in pursuit of a good cause you tend to become a liability to that cause. At best you play right into the opponent's hands, at worse you actively inhibit discussion and exchange of ideas.

I'm sure that there are many historical examples that refute that. The problem with accusing someone as divisive is that anyone speaking out can be given that label.

 

[scoobidoo112]

I know I haven't been in here much but just a heads up. LodKaT had been streaming about the "real" problems in the industry and /v/ caught wind of his stream. It's all conspiracy theories on the IGF, indiecades and Maya Kramer. It's all completely stupid but that could very well be the next targets in all this. Short and simple of his conspiracy: Indies are evil and IGF is racketeering.

Also if you're curious to who LordKaT is, he's formally of TGWTG and most famous for his long and stupid rant about Spoony. That rant is also full of fud and he's very much an idiot who can't keep out of someone elses business.

There's really no saving GamerGate, it started as something terrible and will continue to be something terrible.

EDIT: here's on of his posts. http://www.lordkat.com/igf-and-indiecade-racketeering.html



Probably because FEZ is listed in LordKaT's article on IGF racketeering.

Related: http://www.twitch.tv/lordkat/c/5082022

Recorded an hour ago.

 

[Nanashrew]

Related: http://www.twitch.tv/lordkat/c/5082022

Recorded an hour ago.

I legit tried to watch some of it but just couldn't. People are going crazy like this is the word of gospel piercing through the clouds to show everyone the truth. People are waiting on ShortFatOtaku to release whatever evidence they have over Youtube.

 

[Bagels]

But art remains a highly nebulous concept, if not a nonsensical one at times. People are going to have disagreements on the value of social commentary in criticism (which also happens in these other mediums), but it has nothing to do with art, because nothing has anything to do with art. I'd say the same thing if you tried to invoke the divine and said "Are games holy?" (EDIT: It is also worth noting that there is underlying effect in connecting social commentary and art; games more fitting of social commentary will become more "artistic", which just another abuse of that weird brand to provide status.)

For the record, I'm much more interested in the secondary arguments that arrive from this discussion. I don't really care about the call for more integrity.

The logic here is very weird. Why is the correct response to "art remains a highly nebulous concept," "nothing has anything to do with art" and not EVERYTHING has something to do with art? You've tried to define away the interesting question. If you can read Dickens and honestly tell me that social commentary has nothing to do with his artistic achievements then you are being willfully ignorant.

"Are games holy?" is a (purposely) poorly framed question. But looking at games from an explicitly religious perspective (beyond "violent & sexy games are the devil's work," hopefully) would actually be fascinating. Well, to me at any rate.

Religious concepts, like artistic concepts (no surprise there) can be difficult to nail down. That's precisely WHY they are topics for further discussion.

 

[Kadayi]

I'm sure that there are many historical examples that refute that. The problem with accusing someone as divisive is that anyone speaking out can be given that label.

Not really. Response in large part is predicated by approach.

 

[JackDT]

The people that were investigating the shady business in the IGF a couple years ago, these are the same people being who are being labeled as corrupt journalists pushing social issues today.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Just a reminder to my post just a few up -- the people were were investigation the shady business in the IGF years ago, are the same people being labeled as corrupt journalists pushing social issues.

Your sentences are a bit ... odd, I think you made a few typos.

 

[Earl_Grey]

So I was trawling the Esc forums when I came across this.

The whole movement has a taste for the dramatic, but I'm not entirely sure I'd call this thread an implosion.

 

[MHWilliams]

Just a reminder to my post just a few up -- the people were were investigation the shady business in the IGF years ago, are the same people being labeled as corrupt journalists pushing social issues.

Yeah, in the previous journalism thread, someone brought up "What about the IGF stuff?" and I posted that it's not new and it's been covered before. Just because you didn't read it the first time doesn't mean the work wasn't done.

And if your reply is "nothing changed!" Well yeah, we're journalists, not policy makers. We're only one part of the loop.

Traffic dropped everywhere? Compared to what?

 

[sneaky77]

Agreed. In truth though I don't think Leigh Alexander and her ilk were looking for a discussion versus a rise out of people, naturally hoping it would play into their hands to point the finger at how terrible these gamers are, of course as with all of these things they comically underestimated the diversity of the gamer audience and how people would react.

Now of course we're in the state where 'everyone's a terrorist' but regardless of how things pan out the damage to the reputation to large tracts of the gaming press is already done.

I disagree, the articles were because gamers had already been more than terrible with death, rape and all sorts of threats for a week. Plus that article has already been discussed plenty on this thread already as to the context in which it was created, I don't see how continuing to be deliberately obtuse about and try to remove the context is doing, except that for me it starts to become a dishonest deflection of the situation at large which involves more than one op ed piece by Leigh Alexander

 

[JackDT]

Your sentences are a bit ... odd, I think you made a few typos.

I suck at typing on phones, it's true, and autocorrect with bad typing is often worse than no autocorrect.

 

[Gormless Noodle]

Traffic dropped everywhere? Compared to what?

I'd like to know that too. I've seen an Alexa graph posted by this Aristocrat guy, but I believe Jason Schreier debunked that pretty quickly.

 

[Earl_Grey]

Snip

Traffic dropped everywhere? Compared to what?

From what I understand, a few sites dropped in the Alexa rankings and they're taking this as a sign that the boycotts (?) have worked. The idea that the Esc is suddenly raking in the hits is utter bullshit.

 

[Riposte]

The logic here is very weird. Why is the correct response to "art remains a highly nebulous concept," "nothing has anything to do with art" and not EVERYTHING has something to do with art? You've tried to define away the interesting question. If you can read Dickens and honestly tell me that social commentary has nothing to do with his artistic achievements then you are being willfully ignorant.

"Are games holy?" is a (purposely) poorly framed question. But looking at games from an explicitly religious perspective (beyond "violent & sexy games are the devil's work," hopefully) would actually be fascinating. Well, to me at any rate.

Religious concepts, like artistic concepts (no surprise there) can be difficult to nail down. That's precisely WHY they are topics for further discussion.

A religious commentary is just a certain flavor of social commentary. If you want to understand where I'm coming from, you should say "supernatural" in place of religious, which of course leads to nonsense. For that matter, to fix the Dickens statement into something I can't honestly disagree with you must replace "artistic" with "entertainment", or whatever would be proper form of that word in that situation lol.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

So I was trawling the Esc forums when I came across this.

The whole movement has a taste for the dramatic, but I'm not entirely sure I'd call this thread an implosion.

Outside of a few hours of neck grappling things are fairly stable and tame here. Far from an implosion.

I wouldn't even say Reddit is in the middle of a civil war. Maybe there's some subs out there that I wouldn't touch with a stick, but the prevailing commentary on Reddit seems fairly favorable with 4chan last time I went over to /r/games and /r/gaming (/r/truegaming a different story at that time).

Edit: Also wow at that Escapist championing.

 

[unbias]

So I sorta knew who Jason was, but I never really paid any attention to him. Apparently this is what he thinks of gamergate.

http://youtu.be/Zry8VZ2WWPM?t=20m50s

So, if anyone is interested? /shrug

something to listen to while you watch the train-wreck of the SF Dallas game.

 

[Hasney]

Outside of a few hours of neck grappling things are fairly stable and tame here. Far from an implosion.

I wouldn't even say Reddit is in the middle of a civil war. Maybe there's some subs out there that I wouldn't touch with a stick, but the prevailing commentary on Reddit seems fairly favorable with 4chan last time I went over to /r/games and /r/gaming (/r/truegaming a different story at that time).

Edit: Also wow at that Escapist championing.

I frequent /r/SubredditDrama quite a bit and although things kicked off there during the origins, I think most of the attention has been taken away by the celebrity nudes, a drama that is still rolling on over there. So yeah, they're in turmoil, but not for that.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I'd like to know that too. I've seen an Alexa graph posted by this Aristocrat guy, but I believe Jason Schreier debunked that pretty quickly.

Yeah. From what I've read, through July and August, traffic drops, because E3 happens. It's like when wrestling fans think the WWE is doomed because the first RAW that's against MNF has a bad rating, like it does every year.

 

[Kadayi]

I disagree, the articles were because gamers had already been more than terrible with death, rape and all sorts of threats for a week. Plus that article has already been discussed plenty on this thread already as to the context in which it was created, I don't see how continuing to be deliberately obtuse about and try to remove the context is doing, except that for me it starts to become a dishonest deflection of the situation at large which involves more than one op ed piece by Leigh Alexander

Then disagree with the person I was responding to.

 

[poorlonelycomputer]

But art remains a highly nebulous concept, if not a nonsensical one at times. People are going to have disagreements on the value of social commentary in criticism (which also happens in these other mediums), but it has nothing to do with art, because nothing has anything to do with art. I'd say the same thing if you tried to invoke the divine and said "Are games holy?" (EDIT: It is also worth noting that there is underlying effect in connecting social commentary and art; games more fitting of social commentary will become more "artistic", which just another abuse of that weird brand to provide status.).

This is a hugely outdated definition of art. Like, centuries outdated. It is not strange at all to judge art in terms of social context anymore, in fact critics are expected to. Also as commercial art video games are even more open to social criticism as their production is even less detached from social/economic contexts.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

I'd like to know that too. I've seen an Alexa graph posted by this Aristocrat guy, but I believe Jason Schreier debunked that pretty quickly.

Aristocrat...sounds familiar. Is that the guy who made and pushed the infamous Five Guys 'summary' of Zoe Quinn?

People are going to follow who they will I guess.

 

[zeldablue]

Aristocrat...sounds familiar. Is that the guy who made and pushed the infamous Five Guys 'summary' of Zoe Quinn?

People are going to follow who they will I guess.

His videos make fun of Neogaf posts and stuff.

He's not a very nice or tolerant person, I'd say...

This is a hugely outdated definition of art. Like, centuries outdated. It is not strange at all to judge art in terms of social context anymore, in fact critics are expected to. Also as commercial art video games are even more open to social criticism as their production is even less detached from social/economic contexts.

As someone with a concentration in art history I can very clearly tell you art is all about the time and place. It is all about social commentary. Since the dawn of man.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

What ants can teach us about Gamergate

lol. It's funny because it's true.

 

[Corpekata]

Yeah the idea that reddit is at civil war is amusing. Threads may be getting deleted but that doesn't change the overwhelming circle jerk they are before they get nuked.

 

[JackDT]

Jonathan Blow:

People think I am an IGF judge or something? Pro Tip: you might want to fact-check that.

So if I understand this conspiracy theory correctly: Indie Fund invented a time travel device so we could go back in time to before

we existed, and before the members even had money to fund games with (Braid was not out, I was dirt poor and in debt), and we somehow

colluded so that a particular game would win, so that later we could fund that one specific game? Sounds legit.

 

[Loakum]

...meh. Folks just take themselves way too seriously now-a-days. There will always be "internet warriors" who say all types of crazy things. Simple solution: block/ignore. This whole "Gamergate" nonsense is just the latest generated "controversy" of the day. At the end of the day, video games is a leisure past time. It's not a life or death struggle. Folks just need to take it down a couple of notches, and just play the games, or don't. If you don't like a review score, (or feel the score was arrived at unfairly) then who cares? What matters is if you like the game, or not.Also, if someone expresses a opinion, or joke, you don't agree with, then fine. Let it go. It has no barring on your life, so why get so emotionally unhinged because of it? Stop taking everything so seriously. Sheesh.

 

[aeolist]

...meh. Folks just take themselves way too seriously now-a-days. There will always be "internet warriors" who say all types of crazy things. Simple solution: block/ignore. This whole "Gamergate" nonsense is just the latest generated "controversy" of the day. At the end of the day, video games is a leisure past time. It's not a life or death struggle. Folks just need to take it down a couple of notches, and just play the games or don't. Also, if someone expresses a opinion, or joke, you don't agree with, then fine. Let it go. It has no barring on your life, so why get so emotionally unhinged because of it? Stop taking everything so seriously. Sheesh.

that's pretty easy to say when the background noise of your life is not constant low-grade harassment and threats that have recently become constant high-grade harassment and threats, with possible doxxing and unhinged individuals revealing your address and phone number

 

[Gormless Noodle]

Yeah. From what I've read, through July and August, traffic drops, because E3 happens. It's like when wrestling fans think the WWE is doomed because the first RAW that's against MNF has a bad rating, like it does every year.

Yeah, I believe he (or someone else) mentioned this as well. Plus he showed us a graph from from the tool Kotaku uses to check traffic and it showed no drop I believe.

Aristocrat...sounds familiar. Is that the guy who made and pushed the infamous Five Guys 'summary' of Zoe Quinn?

People are going to follow who they will I guess.

I don't know much about him or his videos but I believe that's the one yeah.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

...meh. Folks just take themselves way too seriously now-a-days. There will always be "internet warriors" who say all types of crazy things. Simple solution: block/ignore. This whole "Gamergate" nonsense is just the latest generated "controversy" of the day. At the end of the day, video games is a leisure past time. It's not a life or death struggle. Folks just need to take it down a couple of notches, and just play the games, or don't. If you don't like a review score, (or feel the score was arrived at unfairly) then who cares? What matters is if you like the game, or not.Also, if someone expresses a opinion, or joke, you don't agree with, then fine. Let it go. It has no barring on your life, so why get so emotionally unhinged because of it? Stop taking everything so seriously. Sheesh.

Your post demonstrates zero understanding of the issue, and this morsel:

Let it go. It has no barring on your life, so why get so emotionally unhinged because of it? Stop taking everything so seriously. Sheesh.

is essentially just dismissing all opinions for the sake of your ignorance while also sweeping everyone else under the rug that is actually trying to have a discussion.

By the way, may I point you to the first rule posted to this Mod started thread:

1. If you're not seriously interested in discussing the issue, don't post. This is a general rule, but it will be moderated sternly in this thread.

Doubt you'll bother, but read the links in the OP. This isn't about review scores or people not taking jokes. There is nothing funny about a lot of this situation in how many people are being treated. You don't have to care, and can keep your nose up in your game or other places and ignore it all. Doesn't mean everyone else should, or has the privilege, in doing so.

Edit: I'll grant you that there are elements to #GAMERSGATE that may fall under your view, but harassment, death threats, and other directed and hurtful actions are difficult and should not be ignored.

 

[Seiru]

I don't understand why videogames are important enough to generate this sort of vitriol and real-life harassment. We aren't talking about actual journalism into income inequality, or abortion, or climate change, or human rights abuses, or any of the other thousands of actually important issues in the world.

It's VIDEOGAMES. Entertainment. I don't get it.

 

[unbias]

I don't understand why videogames are important enough to generate this sort of vitriol and real-life harassment. We aren't talking about actual journalism into income inequality, or abortion, or climate change, or human rights abuses, or any of the other thousands of actually important issues in the world.

It's VIDEOGAMES. Entertainment. I don't get it.

A 93 billion dollar industry is going to get treated like sports. It's just the reality. People get heavily invested.

 

[Fredescu]

I don't understand why videogames are important enough to generate this sort of vitriol and real-life harassment.

It's known as Bike Shedding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_law_of_triviality

Basically people get worked up about trivial things because they're easy to understand.

 

[Sneds]

The general tone of #GamerGate can be so bizarre and melodramatic:

@ListerTheFister: @Jonathan_Blow you cant stop it, its happening and the seed of what you have done will haunt you, the fire rises #GamerGate #gameethics

@Mal_com_U: #GamerGate People! Remember that we have yet too much to do! Rest if you need! Now It's not the time to stop! E-mails ASAP!

@JVandsuch: You can't take video game culture away from us, journalists. But we can take it away from you. We are #notyourshield. #GamerGate

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Jonathan Blow:

It was that complex back & forth through time that gave him the idea for Braid!

HOW DEEP DOES THIS RABBIT-HOLE GO?

 

[Shingro]

I'm sure that there are many historical examples that refute that. The problem with accusing someone as divisive is that anyone speaking out can be given that label.

I'm sorry, my spellcheck was dumb "derisive"

Though if it comes down to it I think the statement can still stand. I think the most effective pushing of social movements are in figuring out what brings us together. If you're seeking to push people apart into various word containers they're likely to reject that, and you and your ideas by extension.

Hell, a lot of the fuel that continues to drive this probably comes from that very reaction.

Fundamentally when it comes down to it you're looking to win hearts and minds. That comes easier by inviting then by pushing.

Actually yeah, I think my spellcheck might know better then me =P

 

[Loakum]

that's pretty easy to say when the background noise of your life is not constant low-grade harassment and threats that have recently become constant high-grade harassment and threats, with possible doxxing and unhinged individuals revealing your address and phone number

That's my point! Folks are talking stuff (videogames) WAY too seriously, that they need to harass someone (on twitter, ect) who expressed something they don't agree with. They throw a hissy-fit online, if someone says anything they don't like or agree with. As I said earlier, folks need to tone it down, it's not that serious. It's just video games. It's just a joke. It's just a review score. It's just, ect. Folks takes stuff way too seriously, which is why we see such pathetic extremes now-a-days.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

That's my point! Folks are talking stuff (videogames) WAY too seriously, that they need to harass someone (on twitter, ect) who expressed something they don't agree with. They throw a hissy-fit online, if someone says anything they don't like or agree with. As I said earlier, folks need to tone it down, it's not that serious. It's just video games. It's just a joke. It's just a review score. It's just, ect. Folks takes stuff way too seriously, which is why we see such pathetic extremes now-a-days.

I don't think the trigger for the actions in #GAMERSGATE is in taking games too seriously. The opposite of so maybe. Sure, I can see some aspects coming into play from certain corners (Leigh Alexander's article for instance), but it doesn't seem to be the root of the issues.

A lot of people just want to watch the world burn, and to them that is the joke and fun. And unfortunately they are getting everything they wanted.

 

[unbias]

I
A lot of people just want to watch the world burn, and to them that is the joke and fun.

Very much this, I think a lot of it is everyone likes a good train wreck and people are jumping onto twitter who dont give a shit, jump on to watch it burn.

 

[zeldablue]

I don't understand why videogames are important enough to generate this sort of vitriol and real-life harassment. We aren't talking about actual journalism into income inequality, or abortion, or climate change, or human rights abuses, or any of the other thousands of actually important issues in the world.

It's VIDEOGAMES. Entertainment. I don't get it.

People go to school and get hired to make these videogames and/or write about them. A lot of people are deeply passionate about games and billions of dollars are spent on this industry. People dedicate their entire lives to this industry.

How can you say it doesn't matter?

 

[Nanashrew]

Very much this, I think a lot of it is everyone likes a good train wreck and people are jumping onto twitter who dont give a shit, jump on to watch it burn.

There are an amazing amount of new users with maybe one or two tweets about gamergate. They're just coming out of the woodworks. Had a few randoms get me too.

 

[unbias]

There are an amazing amount of new users with maybe one or two tweets about gamergate. They're just coming out of the woodworks. Had a few randoms get me too.

If that "PDF" that Jason just gave those 2 reporters is legit, it's just going to get worse. As much as an ass Jason seems to be, I agree with him that the constant poking of the hornets nest(anon/4chan) just created a nightmare. And you have a bunch of people not even talking about the same fucking thing, with Anon doing some stupid shit, as usual. Then the mob comes and were are all watching a riot.

 

[MHWilliams]

Jonathan Blow:

And here's the thing you should understand.

Jonathan Blow says those tweets is essentially him having a conversation with thousands of people. And if you look at the replies, that's what some developers and journalists have all the time. Those who are replying are thinking of it as a conversation with Blow, not realizing he's also talking to many others. That's the nature of the beast.

The problem with that is this: if Blow gets tired of the hundreds of abusive/self-righteous replies (even if they're a mere fraction of the overall number of replies) and snaps at one respondent, that now redefines the entire conversation he's having with the masses. That won't be spread as "Blow snaps after abuse from a large number of people", it'll be spread as "Blow is an asshole because he snapped at this one person."

 

[Bold One]

So I finally caught up with all this and my conclusion is that Gaming Journalism us fucking joke- So I am back where I started before this whole thing started.

Let me re-iterate and say that this issue regarding Gamergate is one thats been festering under the scene for a while.

And regrettable as it may be that things have panned out the way they have, there needs to be a dialogue and respect to the viewers and audience most of which are decent people being lumped in with other a small minority of A-holes

 

[MHWilliams]

So I finally caught up with all this and my conclusion is that Gaming Journalism us fucking joke- So I am back where I started before this whole thing started

That's your only conclusion?

 

[ArkkAngel007]

That's your only conclusion?

I pretty much took the post as someone who already had their mind made up. With the resources in the OP and throughout the thread, that wouldn't be the first, only, and probably not even remotely the thing to conclude from all this.

 

[TheActtionFigure]

...meh. Folks just take themselves way too seriously now-a-days. There will always be "internet warriors" who say all types of crazy things. Simple solution: block/ignore. This whole "Gamergate" nonsense is just the latest generated "controversy" of the day. At the end of the day, video games is a leisure past time. It's not a life or death struggle. Folks just need to take it down a couple of notches, and just play the games, or don't. If you don't like a review score, (or feel the score was arrived at unfairly) then who cares? What matters is if you like the game, or not.Also, if someone expresses a opinion, or joke, you don't agree with, then fine. Let it go. It has no barring on your life, so why get so emotionally unhinged because of it? Stop taking everything so seriously. Sheesh.

This is the most rational post that I've read regarding this whole mess. People have every right to enjoy whatever type of media they want. If you like games that some deem misogynistic or immature it's okay. If you agree with Anita and champion her cause that's fine too. Everyone yelling at each other in this issue is pointless because at the end of the day companies are gonna pander to whoever gives them money regardless of morality.

I would add that any time you stick your neck out publicly for a cause that you deem righteous there will be those that will try to take your head (trust me I know from experience). Grouping an entire subculture in with these troubled individuals will only bring those that do further discord.