Gipsy Danger
Member
Seriously people. Stop including a monitor in your pricing of a PC. If you're going to do that, then take a TV into the equation when buying a console. Otherwise it's not a fair comparison.
Why haven't you bought a PC yet?
- Thread starter Gipsy Danger
- Start date
Seriously people. Stop including a monitor in your pricing of a PC. If you're going to do that, then take a TV into the equation when buying a console. Otherwise it's not a fair comparison.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
How does that make sense? There is no use for a monitor outside of using it for a PC. There is a use for a big-screen TV outside of using it for a gaming console, obviously (watching TV & movies!).
I paid almost $200 for my 23" Samsung 1080p monitor which I never would have bought if I didn't get a gaming PC. Why does that not count in the price? How silly is that? But like most everyone else I would have gotten a big screen TV for my living room even if I never got a console, because it's a dang TV.
Gipsy Danger
Member
Because you can plug your PC into a TV. Assuming you don't want to buy a monitor then you don't have to.
If you have a TV, you have a monitor. Simple as that.
EDIT: Further, a monitor is just a TV without a TV Tuner to the average person. Considering most TVs don't use their TV tuners in the first place and instead rely on TV tuners built into cable boxes, you can absolutely use a PC monitor for everything you use a TV for.
I have a Playstation Monitor I use in my bedroom as my TV.
Sentenza
Member
It makes sense simply because that TV you are assuming everyone already owns is equally usable as a PC monitor as it is as a console monitor.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
I don't like the small text. I don't like having to lug around a M&KB on my sofa, it's just awkward and silly. I don't want to put my PC in my living room. There's plenty of valid reasons why that's not an option for a ton of people.
Monitor should be counted in the price for most people because *most* people aren't going to hook their PC up to their big screen TV in the living room. Think about it. That's a fact and you know it. Maybe 1% of people will hook their PC up in the living room to their big-screen TV.
Gipsy Danger
Member
What are your sources for these facts?
Edit: As an aside. When my monitor broke I was using my TV for a good 6 months before buying a new one. People do it.
Text on a TV would be bigger than text on a small monitor.
So then use a controller.
So explain these reasons.
Connecting a PC to your big screen TV is an exceedingly common occurrence at dorm rooms across the country (at least it was when I was in college a decade ago). You sound like old guard.
Sentenza
Member
And once again that's just your problem. Not a factual, objective difference.
FinalStageBoss
Banned
I have a great PC. Still play more on consoles though.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Do I need official surveys and analytical data for what amounts to common sense? Don't be disingenuous. Barely anyone has their gaming PC hooked up to their living room big-screen TV. You know this, I know this, don't use the "source?!?" line as a crutch for your point.
"A ton of people" already own a PC or would own one even if gaming on PC did not exist.
In order to need to buy a monitor specifically for your gaming PC, you must meet these criteria simultaneously:
1) Not willing to/wanting to hook your PC up to your existing TV
2) Would not own a PC at all if not for gaming
3) Do not own a monitor from a previous PC ownership
3) Unwilling to use a 23'' monitor for TV/movie watching
That last criteria I expect many people meet, but otherwise your conditions are relatively rare. You have to meet all criteria at once for a new monitor to be necessary. It's possibly you personally fit all these criteria, but most people do not.
When you're living in a situation where there is competition for the different devices (TV, Computer, Console) having one viewing device isn't very practical. While *all* situations may not require the cost of a separate viewing device, there are some that absolutely do, and this is probably more frequent than with a console.
Gipsy Danger
Member
Yeah, definitely. Let's just make huge assumptions about how people play their PCs. It's obviously not a good source but there was a thread about this very thing not long ago. People are doing it more and more every day.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Almost every PC game I play save for the occasional single-player adventure is with a M&KB.
Can I play:
Marvel Heroes
D3 RoS
League
Dawngate
Civ Beyond Earth (soon!)
and many more
with a controller? Don't be silly, think before you post.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
People really need cut this shit out. It's more then obvious that most people don't hook their PC up to TV's to play games. You're asking him for statistical data that has probably never been gathered because the results would be obvious common sense and most would see the study as a waste of time.
People try and pull this card far too often here.
Gipsy Danger
Member
I don't understand how that's any different. Considering how many people are really pleased with the Wii U off-tv play and Remote Play. Maybe it's not that rare with consoles.
On the other hand, having to buy a "new viewing device" for a console is almost certainly more expensive than buying one for a PC, if we are insisting on comparing a 23'' monitor to what is presumably a large screen HDTV for most PS4/Xbox One users. So if it happens twice as often for PC users but no average costs 1/2 as much, then it's probably best to call it a wash.
LMAO I forgot some people don't own steam controllers. OOPS MY BAD.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Giv eme 20 minutes to respond to the above. My TF is getting slammed by an Ahri mid.
Gipsy Danger
Member
Maybe the shit people should cut out is just making random assumptions. I certainly agree that more than likely more people use a monitor than a TV in their living room but you have no evidence to back it up and the point is that you don't NEED a monitor if you have a TV. It's just trying to make PCs look more expensive than they are.
While that's a stupid thing to say (what are you even doing... bragging?) I truly am confident that Steam Controller will be the solution to this problem.
Sentenza
Member
If we were going to argue that having a separate monitor from your TV is a good idea, I would absolutely agree. Especially if you live with other people.
Then again, I would argue the same for a console, since having my gaming device shared in the same room where wife/girlfriend/parents/children want to watch TV strikes me as a terrible idea.
I also like monitors a lot more than TVs, especially in reasonable price ranges, as they have far better panel for gaming. Less latency, better image quality, etc.
But that's not the argument here. What's being argued is the claim that you TOTALLY NEED a dedicated monitor for a gaming PC and you TOTALLY DON't need it for a console.
Which is flat out false.
No, I (and presumably others in this conversation) are not asking for statistical proof that "most people hook their computers up to their TV" or whatever. We're saying "so just hook your computer up to your TV." That your neighbor down the road doesn't have a PC hooked up to their TV is irrelevant to the current conversation. The need to buy a new monitor was never there.
Further, hooking up your PC to a TV is not nearly as rare as you would like to pretend it is. If there's any "shit" that needs to be cut out, it's argument from omniscience, one of the most classical argumentative fallacies.
Funkyhamster
Member
Haha I never meant to imply that Macs are definitely not used for game development, just that I don't know how often they're used. I don't know much about the game development world. My point was that I know Macs are commonly used for many other types of development.
This is interesting because the same attitude in reverse is held in other development communities. In the research world, Unix is standard and nobody really uses Windows. Funny how the standard varies so much between different communities.
Anyways, in the interesting of commenting directly on the topic at hand: I don't use a gaming PC right now because:
1) I like console exclusives
2) I don't buy enough games to make the cost savings on Steam sales worth the up front investment
3) I prefer the controller over keyboard/mouse due to hand pain from typing all day at work
4) I like having a standardized system that is guaranteed to be supported more than having the best graphics
5) Even though the level of tinkering required for PCs these days is lower, I still would rather not deal with it
Zen_Arcade
Banned
The problem with your assumption here is that you think everyone has a set up that is simple to have a PC sitting around your TV. For some people, like myself, buying a new monitor would absolutely be a necessity because of my living situation and entertainment center.
The necessity of the monitor is completely dependent on the person. You can't just make a blanket statement like you don't NEED a monitor. Technically it's possible for you to view what's coming out of a PC without buying a monitor, but you're not factoring in people's personal situations where they may not be ABLE to hook up their PC to a TV. Which would cause the monitor to now be a necessity if they want to get into PC gaming.
Acquiescence
Member
Because there aren't any exclusives I want to justify the costly sum of a gaming PC. I was willing to upgrade for Dreamfall Chapters if it came down to it, being the huge Longest Journey nut I am, but even that's coming to the PS4 now. Apart from Fatal Frame 5 and Quantum Break, quite literally everything I want is making its way to the PS4, or is a timed exclusive and will eventually make its way to the PS4, so I'm sound as a pound for now.
And I can't fucking stand tinkering/troubleshooting.
And I can't fucking stand tinkering/troubleshooting.
Finaika
Member
Your avatar is a PC game character.
I have been waiting for so long for the steam controller
I have a pile of games I am holding off playing until I have one.
Ps. I have my PC hooked up to my Plasma, any gaming PC can be hooked up to a TV via hdmi, just like a console, I don't see the problem with it, there a tons of games that work perfect with controller.
I can give you some actual statistics, if you'd like. According to MS' Financial Reports, which can be viewed here, there are >1 Billion Windows machines in the world. That figure is old, so it has more than likely grown since then (even accounting for some market contraction in the last year). That's also not including machines running on any other operating system, which are also PCs and also require monitors, they just don't run on Windows.
Now, the number of those machines built strictly and exclusively for gaming will be quite small. This I do not have statistics for: I'll pull the "I just know" card as above, where it seems obvious but if you really want someone to do an obvious study you can ask them to.
So, that means there are billions of machines out there that need some means to display. They need a monitor, or a TV, or something. And if/when a person wants to build a gaming PC, they can use any of those pre-existing display devices to do it, just as you can use your pre-existing TV to play on your Playstation.
A lot of it stems from game development specific tools that exists on windows, that don't exist really anywhere else. As much flak as Direct X gets, it really is a nice development suite.
And, it's not so much that alternatives don't exist on Linux, it's that they're mainly unfamiliar to game developers.
Gipsy Danger
Member
I have been waiting for so long for the steam controller
I have a pile of games I am holding off playing until I have one.
Ps. I have my PC hooked up to my Plasma, any gaming PC can be hooked up to a TV via hdmi, just like a console, I don't see the problem with it, there a tons of games that work perfect with controller.
You know you can hook up a Dual Shock 4 and use the touchpad as a mouse. It's not perfect but it's pretty good while waiting for Steam controller.
I don't have numbers, but I think more and more people actually do meet criteria 2,3,...and 3 again? Most people I know (and I realize that the plural of anecdote isn't evidence) have a laptop, so they don't need a monitor, or if they don't even need a laptop for school/work they just have a tablet. I seem to remember reading that PC sales have declined in recent years, quick google gave this http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2647517. Many people just don't have a need for a desktop PC or even a laptop.
As for point 1, this really depends so much on the situation, I have no clue how common that is.
On the other hand, I wouldn't have a TV if it wasn't for gaming, so for me getting into console gaming was more expensive than for others.
To be honest, I can use my shield as wireless controller and the screen on that as a mouse, it works very well, great controller too by the way, except the dpad.
Absolutely, the numbers are declining. But they're declining from billions of users, so there's a lot of decline to go.
Again, the number of people who don't want to hook their PC up to a TV and also don't already own a monitor and also wouldn't otherwise own a monitor because their PC is specifically for gaming and also don't want to use a monitor as their TV is a fairly small selection of people. It happens, certainly, and will likely happen more often in the future.
Further, examples like yours show that people do have to sometimes buy TVs for console gaming. I'd add that your TV is probably larger than 23'', and is also very likely to be considerably more expensive than a standard PC monitor. So when an example like yours happens, the cost increase can be significantly larger than the cost increase of buying a 23'' monitor like Heavy's. But I agree, the plural of anecdote is not data.
derExperte
Member
So movies and games are two separate fields of application but work and games aren't? Yes, you can work on a notebook. You can also watch movies there. I didn't buy my monitor only to game with my PC and a big reason I got an HDTV was the PS3. Also a monitor, just like a TV, will last you a long time so it isn't an inherent part of buying a PC.
What are you guys even arguing for? Why do you care if someone doesn't game on PC? It's like you're trying to validate your hobby or something.
When I'm playing a game at 60fps and 1080p, I know it's awesome and the best way to play. I don't need anybody to convince me and I don't care if someone else out there is too stubborn to try it. It just doesn't matter. I don't even care about controller support, much prefer mouse and keyboard.
Even if you convince a bunch of gaffers to get a PC, it's not going to the change the industry or anything. It will be the same market: big budget console games with shallow gameplay will be ported over to PC and some will get a kick out of cranking the settings. Meanwhile PC exclusives will continue to be rare gems that still make the hobby somewhat worthwhile.
When I'm playing a game at 60fps and 1080p, I know it's awesome and the best way to play. I don't need anybody to convince me and I don't care if someone else out there is too stubborn to try it. It just doesn't matter. I don't even care about controller support, much prefer mouse and keyboard.
Even if you convince a bunch of gaffers to get a PC, it's not going to the change the industry or anything. It will be the same market: big budget console games with shallow gameplay will be ported over to PC and some will get a kick out of cranking the settings. Meanwhile PC exclusives will continue to be rare gems that still make the hobby somewhat worthwhile.
Acquiescence
Member
A character introduced to me through a demo disc that came with Official UK Playstation Magazine. Every Broken Sword game has also been released on a console you know, apart from 4.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
If it's becoming so popular, then you provide me evidence that people are doing it. Your argument doesn't have any more proof to it then the person you're disagreeing. No one should have to prove that most people use PC's the way the majority of people have been been using PC's anyway. You're the one claiming change, so you're the one that needs to find measurable proof that things are different. It's impossible to find measurable proof that something is the same, because people don't take polls asking if you're doing the same thing you've always been doing. However, it should be easier for you to find proof that things are changing, because people constantly measure change in things.
As far as your first point, see my argument above. Something may technically not be needed for something to run, but you're completely ignoring situational things that go past the technical details for a computer. For some people the need to buy a monitor IS there, and to pretend that everyone's situation is identical and that everyone can just go hook their computer to a TV is over simplifying the situation.
I already addressed this. Sure, technically you don't need a monitor to play games, but you're not accounting for the many things outside of technical limitations that could limit people from playing games on a TV monitor. I, for example, do not have a lot of space and can't fit a PC in my entertainment area. I have a space I could put a PC if I really wanted to buy one, and I'd have to buy a monitor because there is no place near my TV that could comfortably hold a PC.
Funkyhamster
Member
Ahh yeah, I've heard horror stories about how much of a pain OpenGL is compared to DirectX. Maybe the situation is changing though... I know there's a difference between the platform you develop on and the platform you develop for, but since there's a correlation between the two for many tools (like DirectX), maybe Valve's push to make developing for Linux easy will also make it easier to develop on Linux.
My jasper 360 and PS3 slim are significantly louder than my desktop PC. Also why I don't use my 360 as much as the other two- leaving it on in the background between sessions is near unbearable, particularly if I'm trying to watch a movie.
JudgmentJay
Member
I do, and it's amazing. Playing games downsampled from 4k on a Pioneer Kuro 500M from the couch with a 360 controller can only be described as heaven.
You can stop right there. The argument is not about whether or not the practice is popular. The argument is about whether or not he needs a monitor to play his games, full stop.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
And my argument is that just because it's technically possible to hook up a PC to a TV, it doesn't mean that it's a viable option for everyone and that buying a monitor would indeed be a necessity for some people. Breaking it down to "Yeah well you technically can run a PC without a monitor." isn't a defense against someone telling you that they don't have the option to hook their PC to a TV in the first place. You're completely discounting other factors that might keep a person from being able to hook their PC up to a TV and keep harping on the technicality that a computer will indeed run on that TV I can't hook my PC up to.
That's not your argument at all. You haven't made any sort of effort to support this point. The argument you are trying to make is that you don't think a lot of people hook up their computers to TVs, and unless I or others can bring evidence that there is a sizable number of people who do connect their TVs to their computers, then we absolutely must consider a monitor a necessary purchase (and further, you argue in absolutes from a position of omniscience).
Your argument is poor. "Most people don't have their PC hooked up to a TV, so I need a monitor" is specious reasoning.
If I'm discounting factors people might have for keeping their PC off of their TV, it's because they aren't being brought up. All that is being brought up is an non-sourced and meaningless statistic about intended use. Your attempt at reasoning amounted to form factor, and that ignores the numerous small form factor cases available today. If you can justify putting your Xbox One under your TV, you can justify building a PC that fits under the TV. My HTPC and Xbox One are very similar in size and shape.