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[zeldablue]

So, I have been watching this entire gamergate thing since it exploded, reading the various tweets and seeing everything that's been transpiring and one thing I have to say is I’m fairly disappointed in the journalists and how they handled the entire situation for a few reasons, but i'm only going to get into the main one, something that popped up during the course of all the screaming: More diversity in gaming i.e. more females in gaming.

Reason 1: I saw many journalists say the have a right to discuss social issues, they have a right to be “culture critics” and talk about diversity because games are art, and women are under represented (which is true to anyone who doubts it) and are just doing their jobs. Alright well I have a question for you... where the hell was your righteous fury all the times black people like me, or Hispanics, or Asians, etc complained of no damn real diversity? We've complained for YEARS about this problem, and yet year after year, game after game, the same, plain characters are put into games. Why are you not writing angry editorials, confrontational and heated blog posts and tweets, all getting in unison to write a bevy of articles screaming at the EAs, Activisons, Nintendos, Sony's Microsofts, Ubisofts about how they continually seem to ignore their non-white fans with cookie cutter characters?

Where are your blog and “editorials” calling out developers who constantly decide to just not put any kind of person of color as a protagonist? Why not ask these developers and publishers when you're pimping their game why they don't try to diversify? So when you suddenly become culture reporters and get up in arms about the under-representation of females, the harassment of females, how can I take that claim seriously when for decades you've ignored minorities? Women are definitely not fairly represented in games, but guess what, black people, Hispanics are not hardly represented at all! We're not even background characters, VERY rarely are we protagonists, or love interests or anything other than stereotypes. Same with Hispanics. So where are our articles, where are our knights defending and calling out the DEVELOPERS for this behavior that's gone on? How about asking all those indie developers who are concerned about diversity in gaming now why the hell they haven't put a black guy or girl in their games as the lead?

Hell there have been more alien characters as protagonists than black and Hispanic people. ALIENS. Let that sink in. Developers and publishers would rather create a species than use a black guy or girl, or another minority for their game. So why are you not all taking to twitter and writing all these editorials about that? Why not call the developers and publishers to the carpet like you did with Ubi soft on their “no women because its too hard” comment?

I just can't feel like this is your legitimate concern when they've let this issue go on for so long without any real effort to report on it other than patronizing bones thrown our way.

And also, please journalists, next time something like this happens, remember you're the professional, you're the one paid to report. Don't step down to the level of children on twitter and "circle the wagons" as you did, leave the screaming to the forum and blog posters, raise the level of discourse to an acceptable conversation, don't keep adding fuel to a ridiculous fire.

Because although gamers came out of this damaged, it didn't look good for you all either and just left a bad taste in my mouth and many people's mouths.

So if this was only about race, you'd be on board?

Sexism is a really different bag of worms in terms of stereotypes. Specifically for a sub-culture that actively views women in a very f*cked up way. Sexism is something that most people can just barely grasp. It goes against most of our preconceived thoughts. Racism is something we know is wrong and we try to sneak away from as much as possible. If you're black and you play games, people don't question if you're just doing it for attention. They don't bend over backwards trying to prove that you are a fake gamer. Doing so, would be hilariously racist.

When slavery was still a thing, people were extremely PO'd about freeing us, because they relied on slavery for so much of their well-being. People benefited directly from the belittling of another race. People felt entitled to controlling, using, selling and harming a group of people they saw an inferior. With sexism...it's certainly not slavery, but it is this same feeling of ownership, entitlement and superiority that makes the discussion so hard to have. There's the fear that letting us be "equal" will take the benefits away from men. There's the fear that they'll lose everything if they let this change. These feelings are a bit too old-fashion and too malicious to still be around in the 21st century when women are playing games, making games and writing about games. I can't say racism is a huge problem in the industry, but I can tell you hands-down that sexism is a huge problem right now.

If we're just talking about representation, than I agree with you. I'd love to see more of everything. And I think on the indie scene, we see more of everything. Lee from TWD was really great. But seeing more Lees would be even better. I don't think that's really a racist/sexist problem. I think the lack of representation has to do with the death of "B games." Putting someone who isn't white and male is too high of a financial risk for AAA games. Which is stupid and artistically stunts every bit of creativity and soul that could come out of any new game.

 

[EviLore]

After this #gamergate mob has continued its crusade, against NeoGAF in particular -- for attempting to be socially progressive and for banning some of the hateful #gamergate proponents -- I threw out some (crass, of course; I love it) tweets toward the movement in response, and have since been met with harassment, hate speech, and doxing attempts.

To be clear, this is a movement with no real discernible agenda other than hate and harassment, stemming from disdain toward the idea of social equality. And its main weapon seems to be, hilariously, throwing back all of those terms at its "oppressors." Socially progressive website like RPS that has tried to expose and tackle difficult social issues in the gaming scene? Label it sexist, misogynist, hypocritical, *and* "SJW." Same thing for NeoGAF, Kotaku, Polygon, and whatever other sites have tried to talk about gaming's social problems. No matter what the stated agenda is, the commentary always comes back to this bizarre "SJW vs MRA" debate, and that colors the whole argument.

Bizarrely, now, it has taken on real and supposed women (I say supposed because many of the accounts I saw on twitter had 0 following/followed and 1 tweet, yet fully filled out profiles about being a "girl gamer") with the #notyourshield hashtag, which again attempts to obfuscate the real agenda here by using women to label the socially progressive people taking sides against the hate mob as misogynists.

It's all a farce. I've rolled my eyes at lots of the articles and debates trying too hard to label the gaming scene or video games in general as scummy and sexist over the last few years, and I've spoken about that many times. But this movement is not the rallying cry you want to answer. It really is the embodiment of everything wrong with video game culture.

 

[zeldablue]

...

I'm sorry this is happening. One thing to keep in mind is that women and girls are fully capable of being extremely misogynistic towards other women who they project their unwanted desires onto.

Therefore, there are probably plenty of legitimate women blindly throwing hatred at Zoe and other prominent female figures that go against their internalized hatred of self.

I'd like to keep the hope up in an attempt to humanize the situation.

 

[ThePlayerofGames]

Didn't say you were, just saying I don't think the idea of politics being endemic to all public life is a uniquely American idea. The specifics of these particular political debates are necessarily American, though, since that's the contest in which all of these events have been unfolding.

And I think that's what some people are trying to say. The idea of being forced to wear your heart on your sleeve or be grouped with people that you may not necessarily agree with is a foreign one to a lot of people, and comes across as just another form of bullying.

Are there social and political issues I care about? Sure.

However, just because I'm not as vocal as other people doesn't mean I'm apathetic or a hateful, misogynist bigot and it pisses me off that I'm being attacked for not being as militant as other people. Attacking people isn't going to convince them to support you.

 

[marrec]

After this #gamergate mob has continued its crusade, against NeoGAF in particular -- for attempting to be socially progressive and for banning some of the hateful #gamergate proponents -- I threw out some (crass, of course; I love it) tweets toward the movement in response, and have since been met with harassment, hate speech, and doxing attempts.

To be clear, this is a movement with no real discernible agenda other than hate and harassment, stemming from disdain toward the idea of social equality. And its main weapon seems to be, hilariously, throwing back all of those terms at its "oppressors." Socially progressive website like RPS that has tried to expose and tackle difficult social issues in the gaming scene? Label it sexist, misogynist, hypocritical, *and* "SJW." Same thing for NeoGAF, Kotaku, Polygon, and whatever other sites have tried to talk about gaming's social problems. No matter what the stated agenda is, the commentary always comes back to this bizarre "SJW vs MRA" debate, and that colors the whole argument.

Bizarrely, now, it has taken on real and supposed women (I say supposed because many of the accounts I saw on twitter had 0 following/followed and 1 tweet, yet fully filled out profiles about being a "girl gamer") with the #notyourshield hashtag, which again attempts to obfuscate the real agenda here by using women to label the socially progressive people taking sides against the hate mob as misogynists.

It's all a farce. I've rolled my eyes at lots of the articles and debates trying too hard to label the gaming scene or video games in general as scummy and sexist over the last few years, and I've spoken about that many times. But this movement is not the rallying cry you want to answer. It really is the embodiment of everything wrong with video game culture.

I completely agree.

I used to think that maybe the majority of the people who were talking about the hashtag had pure intentions but having spent a few days inside the hashtag it's immediately obvious that most of the people there share a few traits:

1) They hate people who're vocal about social issues in VGs. This doesn't make a person misogynistic or sexist or racist or anything obviously, but it's an unreasonable hatred either way. They actually think that "social justice warriors" are going to destroy their video games.

2) Because of #1 they were already boycotting social issue sites. NeoGAF and RPS and Kotaku probably weren't high on their most visited list before all of this started so their rallying hasn't changed much traffic that wouldn't have already changed due to seasonal ups and downs.

3) There are really not that many people. Lots of real people talking about their passions (which happen to be SJW hate mostly, not corruption hate) but they're just repeating the same things over and over. As you probably know Lore since one tweet of yours has been taken out of context over and over. There's lots of sockpuppets though and yes they're in #notyourshield too.

I cannot take this 'movement' seriously when in the end it's literally just an extension of /v/ on Twitter. Not to say that everyone taking part is from /v/, but the sentiments are all the same. We hate SJWs and anyone that supports them. We hate vocal women in games media. Oh ya and I guess corruption too. I'm done worrying about or writing about this farce because there's no direction, just a bubbling puddle of misappropriated hate.

 

[alstein]

...

I'm sorry this is happening. One thing to keep in mind is that women and girls are fully capable of being extremely misogynistic towards other women who they project their unwanted desires onto.

Therefore, there are probably plenty of legitimate women blindly throwing hatred at Zoe and other prominent female figures that go against their internalized hatred of self.

I'd like to keep the hope up in an attempt to humanize the situation.

I don't think this is happening here. At least I haven't seen it.

That said, I think a reason the pushback was so fierce this time when it really shouldn't have been was a combination of factors:

1) the SJW types got a lot of folks angry this time, and they weren't afraid of being labelled anything, so they pushed back with the same ferocity. They became more about the warrior than the justice, and that breeds resentment, and sets the cause backwards.

2) Some folks had unrelated gripes about game "journalism", and they felt this was their best chance of pushing back, so they took it.

You had 3 groups pushing back, all for different reasons. It's a shame because the core issue in this is pretty black and white- what happened to ZQ was wrong no matter what you think about her personally/professionally.

 

[Newblade]

To whoever thinks that SJWs are destroying or polluting gaming, the hard data tells a different story: 99.55% of the output of professional video-game journalists has nothing to do with feminism, sexism, or misogyny.

 

[Maulik]

This may seem a little abstract but hear me out. I think the root of this whole "issue" is that we really don't have a truly independent gaming press. By independent, I mean a press that is not beholden to the very interests it is supposed to cover. Of course we do have some pockets that are able to express themselves without fear of retaliation from the industry (think sites that support themselves via donations or backers), but the vast majority of the gaming press is far too dependent on the developers and industry for the mana that sustains them: access. Think about the last time there was an actual interview where someone from the industry was asked a hard and probing question? For me it was when Dan Shue asked Peter Moore about the Xbox 360 and its failure rate circa 2006.

This is where the youtubers, twitchers and personality driven press come in. Now i'm not saying these guys are totally independent or free from influence as well, however, given how much of the mainstream gaming press is already a reflection of the PR cycle, most consumers are entirely well served by this alternative press(think quick looks and impressions using primarily video rather than long form written previews).

Now i really and truly feel that is it this squeeze from the industry and the youtubers that is causing this schism between we the consumer and the mainstream gaming press. The press feel impotent because they cannot ask the questions that they know would help distinguish them from the "amateurs" as not to lose their access (think how the Xbox 1 DRM fiasco was greeted by the press). Ergo, the press has only one target left to go after, their own audience. Even though we are ostensibly the party in all this they should serve, we do not have Destiny to advertise or a new gaming card to sell and are thus considered the only fair target to go after.

Now i'm all for the press being critical of the larger culture of gaming, however, that also needs to be paired with a similar critical look at the industry as a whole and asking those in charge the same things they so readily ask of us as a community.

 

[The Technomancer]

Re: the race issue, I absolutely agree that its underrepresented in the overall conversation, and its just as important (without getting into a pissing contest about "magnitudes" or anything). Honestly I think its a combination of two things:

-Your typical undergrad exposure to cultural criticism and media studies is going to probably focus more on sexism than racism for whatever reasons (up to and including, well racism) and thats the general perspective a lot of thoughtful people jump off from

-And perhaps more importantly, there's no Anita Sarkeesian for the racism issue. Yes sexism in games has been something some people discussed for years now, but I remember pretty clearly that it was with Sarkeesian and the explosion around her Kickstarter that suddenly sexism became "the thing" for video game media outlets to talk about if they wanted to be progressive. I think the racism issue needs a similar, if not figurehead, than at least a catalyst

 

[GitarooMan]

After this #gamergate mob has continued its crusade, against NeoGAF in particular -- for attempting to be socially progressive and for banning some of the hateful #gamergate proponents -- I threw out some (crass, of course; I love it) tweets toward the movement in response, and have since been met with harassment, hate speech, and doxing attempts.

To be clear, this is a movement with no real discernible agenda other than hate and harassment, stemming from disdain toward the idea of social equality. And its main weapon seems to be, hilariously, throwing back all of those terms at its "oppressors." Socially progressive website like RPS that has tried to expose and tackle difficult social issues in the gaming scene? Label it sexist, misogynist, hypocritical, *and* "SJW." Same thing for NeoGAF, Kotaku, Polygon, and whatever other sites have tried to talk about gaming's social problems. No matter what the stated agenda is, the commentary always comes back to this bizarre "SJW vs MRA" debate, and that colors the whole argument.

Bizarrely, now, it has taken on real and supposed women (I say supposed because many of the accounts I saw on twitter had 0 following/followed and 1 tweet, yet fully filled out profiles about being a "girl gamer") with the #notyourshield hashtag, which again attempts to obfuscate the real agenda here by using women to label the socially progressive people taking sides against the hate mob as misogynists.

It's all a farce. I've rolled my eyes at lots of the articles and debates trying too hard to label the gaming scene or video games in general as scummy and sexist over the last few years, and I've spoken about that many times. But this movement is not the rallying cry you want to answer. It really is the embodiment of everything wrong with video game culture.

Totally agree. The sooner this gamergate thing ends the better.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Re: the race issue, I absolutely agree that its underrepresented in the overall conversation, and its just as important (without getting into a pissing contest about "magnitudes" or anything). Honestly I think its a combination of two things:

-Your typical undergrad exposure to cultural criticism and media studies is going to probably focus more on sexism than racism for whatever reasons (up to and including, well racism) and thats the general perspective a lot of thoughtful people jump off from

-And perhaps more importantly, there's no Anita Sarkeesian for the racism issue. Yes sexism in games has been something some people discussed for years now, but I remember pretty clearly that it was with Sarkeesian and the explosion around her Kickstarter that suddenly sexism became "the thing" for video game media outlets to talk about if they wanted to be progressive. I think the racism issue needs a similar, if not figurehead, than at least a catalyst

I'd love for someone to analyse race in games the same way Anita Sarkeesian has done it for the women issues.

Would kickstarter.

 

[jschreier]

This may seem a little abstract but hear me out. I think the root of this whole "issue" is that we really don't have a truly independent gaming press. By independent, I mean a press that is not beholden to the very interests it is supposed to cover. Of course we do have some pockets that are able to express themselves without fear of retaliation from the industry (think sites that support themselves via donations or backers), but the vast majority of the gaming press is far too dependent on the developers and industry for the mana that sustains them: access. Think about the last time there was an actual interview where someone from the industry was asked a hard and probing question? For me it was when Dan Shue asked Peter Moore about the Xbox 360 and its failure rate circa 2006.

If you really think the last time a gaming journalist asked a hard question was 2006, you are way out of touch and probably should try reading more than Penny Arcade before voicing your opinion on video game journalism. If you really think sites like Kotaku are afraid of losing access to publishers, try clicking the link above my avatar.

 

[zeldablue]

I'd love for someone to analyse race in games the same way Anita Sarkeesian has done it for the women issues.

Would kickstarter.

I wouldn't want to send someone out to take that hatred. I don't think I want to know how racist the gaming community is.

The reason Anita opened my eyes is because of the blowback. I didn't see a problem until everyone, even my close friends, reacted with anger. I couldn't understand that. I don't want to see that again. It's so depressing.

 

[_hekk05]

If you really think the last time a gaming journalist asked a hard question was 2006, you are way out of touch and probably should try reading more than Penny Arcade before voicing your opinion on video game journalism. If you really think sites like Kotaku are afraid of losing access to publishers, try clicking the link above my avatar.

Kotaku’s Jason Schreier contacted us after our Indiegogo page got hacked on Aug 25. At the time, we assumed Zoe had simply not understood the terms of our website, and asked to do an article on the facts of the issues explaining Zoe was confused and did not understand them. We wanted to set the record straight on what happened. That article was never published.

http://apgnation.com/archives/2014/09/09/6977/truth-gaming-interview-fine-young-capitalists

And why was that?

 

[Vlade]

So, I have been watching this entire gamergate thing since it exploded, reading the various tweets and seeing everything that's been transpiring and one thing I have to say is I’m fairly disappointed in the journalists and how they handled the entire situation for a few reasons, but i'm only going to get into the main one, something that popped up during the course of all the screaming: More diversity in gaming i.e. more females in gaming.

Reason 1: I saw many journalists say the have a right to discuss social issues, they have a right to be “culture critics” and talk about diversity because games are art, and women are under represented (which is true to anyone who doubts it) and are just doing their jobs. Alright well I have a question for you... where the hell was your righteous fury all the times black people like me, or Hispanics, or Asians, etc complained of no damn real diversity? We've complained for YEARS about this problem, and yet year after year, game after game, the same, plain characters are put into games. Why are you not writing angry editorials, confrontational and heated blog posts and tweets, all getting in unison to write a bevy of articles screaming at the EAs, Activisons, Nintendos, Sony's Microsofts, Ubisofts about how they continually seem to ignore their non-white fans with cookie cutter characters?

Where are your blog and “editorials” calling out developers who constantly decide to just not put any kind of person of color as a protagonist? Why not ask these developers and publishers when you're pimping their game why they don't try to diversify? So when you suddenly become culture reporters and get up in arms about the under-representation of females, the harassment of females, how can I take that claim seriously when for decades you've ignored minorities? Women are definitely not fairly represented in games, but guess what, black people, Hispanics are not hardly represented at all! We're not even background characters, VERY rarely are we protagonists, or love interests or anything other than stereotypes. Same with Hispanics. So where are our articles, where are our knights defending and calling out the DEVELOPERS for this behavior that's gone on? How about asking all those indie developers who are concerned about diversity in gaming now why the hell they haven't put a black guy or girl in their games as the lead?

Hell there have been more alien characters as protagonists than black and Hispanic people. ALIENS. Let that sink in. Developers and publishers would rather create a species than use a black guy or girl, or another minority for their game. So why are you not all taking to twitter and writing all these editorials about that? Why not call the developers and publishers to the carpet like you did with Ubi soft on their “no women because its too hard” comment?

I just can't feel like this is your legitimate concern when they've let this issue go on for so long without any real effort to report on it other than patronizing bones thrown our way.

And also, please journalists, next time something like this happens, remember you're the professional, you're the one paid to report. Don't step down to the level of children on twitter and "circle the wagons" as you did, leave the screaming to the forum and blog posters, raise the level of discourse to an acceptable conversation, don't keep adding fuel to a ridiculous fire.

Because although gamers came out of this damaged, it didn't look good for you all either and just left a bad taste in my mouth and many people's mouths.

You aren't wrong, but I'm not sure you saw what happened if you don't understand why the conversation is what it is at this point. Same with the "circling the wagons", the response was pretty much called for considering the harassment and th implication of certain journalists.

After this #gamergate mob has continued its crusade, against NeoGAF in particular -- for attempting to be socially progressive and for banning some of the hateful #gamergate proponents -- I threw out some (crass, of course; I love it) tweets toward the movement in response, and have since been met with harassment, hate speech, and doxing attempts.

To be clear, this is a movement with no real discernible agenda other than hate and harassment, stemming from disdain toward the idea of social equality. And its main weapon seems to be, hilariously, throwing back all of those terms at its "oppressors." Socially progressive website like RPS that has tried to expose and tackle difficult social issues in the gaming scene? Label it sexist, misogynist, hypocritical, *and* "SJW." Same thing for NeoGAF, Kotaku, Polygon, and whatever other sites have tried to talk about gaming's social problems. No matter what the stated agenda is, the commentary always comes back to this bizarre "SJW vs MRA" debate, and that colors the whole argument.

Bizarrely, now, it has taken on real and supposed women (I say supposed because many of the accounts I saw on twitter had 0 following/followed and 1 tweet, yet fully filled out profiles about being a "girl gamer") with the #notyourshield hashtag, which again attempts to obfuscate the real agenda here by using women to label the socially progressive people taking sides against the hate mob as misogynists.

It's all a farce. I've rolled my eyes at lots of the articles and debates trying too hard to label the gaming scene or video games in general as scummy and sexist over the last few years, and I've spoken about that many times. But this movement is not the rallying cry you want to answer. It really is the embodiment of everything wrong with video game culture.

Cheers. I hope you and this site stay good.

 

[slayn]

I finally caught up on trying to follow wtf has even been happening here. It's a struggle to even know what issue is even being talked about because there are numerous issues and everyone starts out by assuming you know exactly which one they want to talk about.

I'm somewhat of an outsider to the representation issue, because as far as I can tell its a problem that primarily exists in shooters and AAA open world/action games. Neither of which are genres I like anyway. At some point a while back I calculated what % of the games I play require I play as a straight white male and the answer was very few. Like maybe 5% if that?

So my personal opinion is that I don't... really care? I don't see equality in luxury entertainment as a right. Some people make things, and others will buy them. Based on the content creators and the demand for different kinds of content different products will be made. If that happens to result in equality then... ok. If it doesn't then... ok. But I just see it as a group of people that want something in the same way I want there to be less shooters and more of everything else.

But I don't see the desire for less straight white male as more 'right' or morally superior than my desire for less shoot bang. But I'm not against it either. If enough people want it and are willing to yell about it until they get it then... ok. I won't be one standing in your way. But don't expect to win me over by talking about how your desires *need* to happen or are somehow better than my desires. Or when comments get made that sound like, "You're with us if you think gaming needs to become more inclusive, otherwise..." then it's you that has labeled me the enemy before I even said a word.

But there's a lot of issues being talked about besides representation in games. There's the whole journalistic integrity thing which I think is largely misguided and self conflicted. There's the sexism within the industry itself which is (probably? I'm not in the industry myself) a nasty problem but also one not going to be solved on twitter nor by journalists complaining to consumers or yelling at each other on message boards. There's the issue that there are just assholes on the internet which isn't a problem I see as solvable without removing anonymity from the internet which I would not be in favor of for numerous reasons. And probably a mountain of other issues I haven't fully sifted through.

I do have some advice when it comes to trying to sway people's minds. You aren't going to influence people by telling them the other guys or evil. Or lecturing them. Or standing on a soap box and assuming a position of moral superiority. Talking in terms of morality and hatred forces you into a conversation of absolutes. And talking in absolutes inherently puts people on the defensive. Before they've even really thought about it for themselves they're going to look for a reason to disagree with you.

Using language involving hate, morality, and absolutes is a great way to rally the troops. It will get people who already agree with you patting you on the back and raising their hand to say me too. But it is a worthless language for actually swaying people's hearts. Changing people's minds must feel like a give and take. It needs to *feel* like compromise even if the end result in terms of actions taken isn't. And to speak in that language requires that you be able to contemplate the idea that the other guy might be right.

And that's really, really hard to do. But every open minded person ever is going to be morally *certain* of things in their lives and 20-30 years later realize they were dumb/wrong/misguided. Every one of you reading this right now I guarantee this is going to happen to you in your life. You will be certain of something. 100%. The issue is so obvious. No way you would ever change your mind... until you do.

Overall, I think the greatest step forward that could be taken from this mess right now is to stop calling it a war and stopping thinking there are 'sides.' There are just many people; all with their own beliefs, priorities, and emotions. And some of these people are being hurt.

 

[Maulik]

If you really think the last time a gaming journalist asked a hard question was 2006, you are way out of touch and probably should try reading more than Penny Arcade before voicing your opinion on video game journalism. If you really think sites like Kotaku are afraid of losing access to publishers, try clicking the link above my avatar.

Jason, I think my example about Peter Moore was more to the point that. at least imho, that incident was the last time I as a gamer felt that the gaming press was acting as the advocate of the gamer's concern.

For a more recent example, look at the disconnect that occurred at the XB1's reveal where the vast majority of consumers were up in arms / asking legitimate questions while the press just sat back and said "nothing to see here folks, its the wave of the future". And i read the example that you linked above your avatar and I commend you for sticking with that story but was that really a story that impacted gamers in any tangible sense?

 

[Elman]

For a more recent example, look at the disconnect that occurred at the XB1's reveal where the vast majority of consumers were up in arms / asking legitimate questions while the press just sat back and said "nothing to see here folks, its the wave of the future".

http://kotaku.com/that-xbox-one-reveal-sure-was-a-disaster-huh-509192266

And I'm sure there are many, many more examples. The gaming press did not sit back and let this slide.

 

[jschreier]

Jason, I think my example about Peter Moore was more to the point that. at least imho, that incident was the last time I as a gamer felt that the gaming press was acting as the advocate of the gamer's concern.

For a more recent example, look at the disconnect that occurred at the XB1's reveal where the vast majority of consumers were up in arms / asking legitimate questions while the press just sat back and said "nothing to see here folks, its the wave of the future". And i read the example that you linked above your avatar and I commend you for sticking with that story but was that really a story that impacted gamers in any tangible sense?

"Nothing to see here folks, it's the wave of the future"?
http://kotaku.com/that-xbox-one-reveal-sure-was-a-disaster-huh-509192266
http://kotaku.com/the-xbox-one-just-had-a-very-bad-day-511766497
http://kotaku.com/survey-half-of-you-wont-tolerate-any-online-requireme-510976406

I think it's really rude of you to post these declarations about sites like mine that just straight-up aren't true, and it makes me wonder how many other people believe the same thing out of ignorance.

 

[robovanburen]

For a more recent example, look at the disconnect that occurred at the XB1's reveal where the vast majority of consumers were up in arms / asking legitimate questions while the press just sat back and said "nothing to see here folks, its the wave of the future".

This is not how things played out at all. Unless you're lumping most journalists with "the vast majority of consumers." People like TB or Kuchera who were all, "Ehhh, whatever, used games are over!" were the outliers.

And i read the example that you linked above your avatar and I commend you for sticking with that story but was that really a story that impacted gamers in any tangible sense?

Now you're just moving goalposts.

 

[JDSN]

After this #gamergate mob has continued its crusade, against NeoGAF in particular -- for attempting to be socially progressive and for banning some of the hateful #gamergate proponents -- I threw out some (crass, of course; I love it) tweets toward the movement in response, and have since been met with harassment, hate speech, and doxing attempts.

To be clear, this is a movement with no real discernible agenda other than hate and harassment, stemming from disdain toward the idea of social equality. And its main weapon seems to be, hilariously, throwing back all of those terms at its "oppressors." Socially progressive website like RPS that has tried to expose and tackle difficult social issues in the gaming scene? Label it sexist, misogynist, hypocritical, *and* "SJW." Same thing for NeoGAF, Kotaku, Polygon, and whatever other sites have tried to talk about gaming's social problems. No matter what the stated agenda is, the commentary always comes back to this bizarre "SJW vs MRA" debate, and that colors the whole argument.

Bizarrely, now, it has taken on real and supposed women (I say supposed because many of the accounts I saw on twitter had 0 following/followed and 1 tweet, yet fully filled out profiles about being a "girl gamer") with the #notyourshield hashtag, which again attempts to obfuscate the real agenda here by using women to label the socially progressive people taking sides against the hate mob as misogynists.

It's all a farce. I've rolled my eyes at lots of the articles and debates trying too hard to label the gaming scene or video games in general as scummy and sexist over the last few years, and I've spoken about that many times. But this movement is not the rallying cry you want to answer. It really is the embodiment of everything wrong with video game culture.

Truly nothing else needs to be said, #gamergate has nothing to do with journalism, people try to separate the sexist origins of the movement with its current mission but the fact remains that its still targeting certain women or people that support them disproportionately.What is the point of saying that you support the movement but not its bigots, that you support Christina Sommers but not her views on rape, that you find yourself retweeting Adam Baldwing stuff but not his comments about gay marriage being like incest, you find yourself agreeing with Jontron but not his liberal use of the word nigger and other subtle racist shit he says. Is this the people that you want to be standing next to you? Will people believe that you are divorced to the ugliest parts of the movement while you keep willfully surrounding yourself with them?

And this is from a guy that has given shit to Kotaku and Jason for certain things I perceived as wrong, the discussion about ethics with this people is pointless because they what to talk about it in ridiculously specific and very suspicious terms (ie only indie devs)

 

[SpacedCadette]

...

I'm sorry this is happening. One thing to keep in mind is that women and girls are fully capable of being extremely misogynistic towards other women who they project their unwanted desires onto.

Jesus. Ugh.

Nothing makes me more upset than this sort of unnecessary in-fighting between women in an extremely male-driven industry. I've been very fortunate not to have any sort of direct head-butting with another woman in the companies I've worked with, but man is it disheartening to read about.

I mean, look, it has been discussed before about the idea of what most people's professional "rolodex" looks like when it comes to the gaming industry. It's made up overwhelmingly of white, 20-45 year old men. Hell. I'm currently on a team of about 30 people and I'm one of only 3 women with maybe... 3 people that I'd classify as something other than "white". Now let me also state that all of these people are amazing at what they do, I love working with each and every one of them, and they are here because they are extremely talented and it's not a question of there being a gender or race minority person who was just as good, but passed over in favor of a white guy. But it's just a fact that, currently, the gaming industry is still pretty over-saturated with white dudes for one reason or another (90% of the time for no other reason than that's the largest group of people who apply for game industry positions). Although it's changing for the better thanks to the indie scene and overall progression in general, it's still something that needs improving. Which is why things like the link above are so depressing. The last thing we should be doing is scaring and running women out of the game industry. Which is exactly what this #gamergate bullhockey is doing. And it's the same thing for race diversity. It's lacking and needs improvement, but I think zeldablue has been making very good points about the deep-rootedness of sexism and that fact is shown by the way that women are often just as guilty as anyone of being misogynistic.

edit: fixed some weird sentences

 

[ibyea]

So, I have been watching this entire gamergate thing since it exploded, reading the various tweets and seeing everything that's been transpiring and one thing I have to say is I’m fairly disappointed in the journalists and how they handled the entire situation for a few reasons, but i'm only going to get into the main one, something that popped up during the course of all the screaming: More diversity in gaming i.e. more females in gaming.

Reason 1: I saw many journalists say the have a right to discuss social issues, they have a right to be “culture critics” and talk about diversity because games are art, and women are under represented (which is true to anyone who doubts it) and are just doing their jobs. Alright well I have a question for you... where the hell was your righteous fury all the times black people like me, or Hispanics, or Asians, etc complained of no damn real diversity? We've complained for YEARS about this problem, and yet year after year, game after game, the same, plain characters are put into games. Why are you not writing angry editorials, confrontational and heated blog posts and tweets, all getting in unison to write a bevy of articles screaming at the EAs, Activisons, Nintendos, Sony's Microsofts, Ubisofts about how they continually seem to ignore their non-white fans with cookie cutter characters?

Where are your blog and “editorials” calling out developers who constantly decide to just not put any kind of person of color as a protagonist? Why not ask these developers and publishers when you're pimping their game why they don't try to diversify? So when you suddenly become culture reporters and get up in arms about the under-representation of females, the harassment of females, how can I take that claim seriously when for decades you've ignored minorities? Women are definitely not fairly represented in games, but guess what, black people, Hispanics are not hardly represented at all! We're not even background characters, VERY rarely are we protagonists, or love interests or anything other than stereotypes. Same with Hispanics. So where are our articles, where are our knights defending and calling out the DEVELOPERS for this behavior that's gone on? How about asking all those indie developers who are concerned about diversity in gaming now why the hell they haven't put a black guy or girl in their games as the lead?

Hell there have been more alien characters as protagonists than black and Hispanic people. ALIENS. Let that sink in. Developers and publishers would rather create a species than use a black guy or girl, or another minority for their game. So why are you not all taking to twitter and writing all these editorials about that? Why not call the developers and publishers to the carpet like you did with Ubi soft on their “no women because its too hard” comment?

I just can't feel like this is your legitimate concern when they've let this issue go on for so long without any real effort to report on it other than patronizing bones thrown our way.

And also, please journalists, next time something like this happens, remember you're the professional, you're the one paid to report. Don't step down to the level of children on twitter and "circle the wagons" as you did, leave the screaming to the forum and blog posters, raise the level of discourse to an acceptable conversation, don't keep adding fuel to a ridiculous fire.

Because although gamers came out of this damaged, it didn't look good for you all either and just left a bad taste in my mouth and many people's mouths.

While the reason people have been talking about sexism is the whole Zoe Quinn thing, I agree with this. I think discussing both things is not mutually incompatible.

 

[zeldablue]

Jesus. Ugh.

Nothing makes me more upset than this sort of unnecessary in-fighting between women in an extremely male-driven industry. I've been very fortunate not to have any sort of direct head-butting with another woman in the companies I've worked with, but man is it disheartening to read about.

I mean, look, it has been discussed before about the idea of what most people's professional "rolodex" looks like when it comes to the gaming industry. It's made up overwhelmingly of white, 20-45 year old men. Hell. I'm currently on a team of about 30 people and I'm one of only 3 women with maybe... 3 people that I'd classify as something other than "white". Now let me also state that all of these people are amazing at what they do, I love working with each and every one of them, and they are here because they are extremely talented and it's not a question of there being a gender or race minority person who was just as good, but passed over in favor of a white guy. But it's just a fact that, currently, the gaming industry is still pretty over-saturated with white dudes for one reason or another (90% of the time for no other reason than that's the largest group of people who apply for game industry positions). Although it's changing for the better thanks to the indie scene and overall progression in general, it's still something that needs improving. Which is why things like the link above are so depressing. The last thing we should be doing is scaring and running women out of the game industry. Which is exactly what this #gamergate bullhockey is doing. And it's the same thing for race diversity. It's lacking and needs improvement, but I think zeldablue has been making very good points about the deep-rootedness of sexism and that fact is shown by the way that women are often just as guilty as anyone of being misogynistic.

edit: fixed some weird sentences

There's a certain pride in being a token. I am quite the token myself. And I caught myself doing this to someone by calling myself a "bro" in an attempt to make sure she knew she didn't quite belong the same way I did.

It's not a good practice to be sucked into. But I can at least self-correct. *slaps hand on wrist*

Now that I think about it, that terrible story reminds me of Memoirs of a Geisha. It's all a competition for some people.

 

[Messofanego]

Jennifer Hale speaks up (3:46)

Short and to the point.

 

[bigmf]

Jennifer Hale is the smartest person to ever discuss this matter. Everyone else is miles behind.

Some of the threats that were made against Zoe Quinn: People threatened to kneecap her, people threatened to give her brain damage if they could find her in person. Does the gaming community deserve to have a bad name?

The community does not. These people within the community do. We need to police ourselves. I don't know how to do that, because the members of our community that have called out to these people to stop doing what they're doing are being then themselves threatened.

 

[zeldablue]

Jennifer Hale speaks up (3:46)

Short and to the point.

Another target for the harassers to attack. :C

 

[BrassDragon]

Jennifer Hale is the smartest person to ever discuss this matter. Everyone else is miles behind.

Go, Femshep.

 

[Cybit]

So if this was only about race, you'd be on board?

I'd argue race is a bigger issue because no one cares about it and it's just assumed; ala sexism 10-15 years ago. Racial issues are flat out baked into US society.

The answer as to why the focus is on sexism and not racism is a) it was a woman who was attacked and b) http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/12/11/on-pay-gap-millennial-women-near-parity-for-now/

It is about the money (generally speaking I think it is always about the money). I see you rising trend of young women who happen to be earning 60% of the college degrees given out. They're going to be earning more money then men sooner rather than later; so there is (IMO) an economic benefit to trying to remove sexism as well as the obvious social benefits / being decent freaking human beings.

 

[GolazoDan]

Another target for the harassers to attack. :C

I shouldn't have looked at the comments, should I.

 

[RicoTheMad]

Truly nothing else needs to be said, #gamergate has nothing to do with journalism, people try to separate the sexist origins of the movement with its current mission but the fact remains that its still targeting certain women or people that support them disproportionately.What is the point of saying that you support the movement but not its bigots, that you support Christina Sommers but not her views on rape, that you find yourself retweeting Adam Baldwing stuff but not his comments about gay marriage being like incest, you find yourself agreeing with Jontron but not his liberal use of the word nigger and other subtle racist shit he says. Is this the people that you want to be standing next to you? Will people believe that you are divorced to the ugliest parts of the movement while you keep willfully surrounding yourself with them?

And this is from a guy that has given shit to Kotaku and Jason for certain things I perceived as wrong, the discussion about ethics with this people is pointless because they what to talk about it in ridiculously specific and very suspicious terms (ie only indie devs)

This kind of mindset is poisonous. Yes, you should judge an argument based on the argument, not the nature of the person discussing it. That's called an Ad-Hominem fallacy.

So yes, they *should* say "I agree with X" but I disagree with them on Y and Z. When did agreement with one idea mean that you must then agree with all past and future things that person did or say? Ridiculousness. Talk like this only makes the issue worse.

 

[zeldablue]

I'd argue race is a bigger issue because no one cares about it and it's just assumed; ala sexism 10-15 years ago. Racial issues are flat out baked into US society.

The answer as to why the focus is on sexism and not racism is a) it was a woman who was attacked and b) http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/12/11/on-pay-gap-millennial-women-near-parity-for-now/

It is about the money (generally speaking I think it is always about the money). I see you rising trend of young women who happen to be earning 60% of the college degrees given out. They're going to be earning more money then men sooner rather than later; so there is (IMO) an economic benefit to trying to remove sexism as well as the obvious social benefits / being decent freaking human beings.

Oh believe me, I see racism and sexism everywhere. I'm the "inferior" gender and race.

I just don't see it happening like this unless someone steps up and says "Bioshock Infinite trivialized slavery to incentivize violence on enemies. Or, Resident Evil 5 further drove the fear of blacks with use of savage, voodoo imagery. Or The Legend of Zelda and Pokemon have insensitive blackface characters."

How's that going to go over? It'll go over terribly. It'll bring out the worst in people. I don't even...Do you want to watch 4 hour videos of people refuting everything and saying how everything is a sham and that racism doesn't really exist? 'Cause that's what you'll get.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Btw, slightly off topic, this is the sort of transparency I want to see from the industry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnlLqzzCtyA&list=UUy1Ms_5qBTawC-k7PVjHXKQ

He straight up says that the video is a paid endorsement.

 

[Palette Swap]

Oh believe me, I see racism and sexism everywhere. I'm the "inferior" gender and race.

I just don't see it happening like this unless someone steps up and says "Bioshock Infinite trivialized slavery to incentivize violence on enemies. Or, Resident Evil 5 further drove the fear of blacks with use of savage, voodoo imagery. Or The Legend of Zelda and Pokemon have insensitive blackface characters."

How's that going to go over? It'll go over terribly. It'll bring out the worst in people. I don't even...Do you want to watch 4 hour videos of people refuting everything and saying how everything is a sham and that racism doesn't really exist? 'Cause that's what you'll get.

This reminded me of that Eurogamer coverage of RE5 back then, which I liked because it elegantly and concisely outlined what could be so problematic that it deserved a better conversation than "lol people get offended about anything".
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to reread it.

One of the first things you see in the game, seconds after taking control of Chris Redfield, is a gang of African men brutally beating something in a sack. Animal or human, it’s never revealed, but these are not infected Majini. There are no red bloodshot eyes. These are ordinary Africans, who stop and stare at you menacingly as you approach. Since the Majini are not undead corpses, and are capable of driving vehicles, handling weapons and even using guns, it makes the line between the infected monsters and African civilians uncomfortably vague. Where Africans are concerned, the game seems to be suggesting, bloodthirsty savagery just comes with the territory.

Later on, there’s a cut-scene of a white blonde woman being dragged off, screaming, by black men. When you attempt to rescue her, she’s been turned and must be killed. If this has any relevance to the story it’s not apparent in the first three chapters, and it plays so blatantly into the old clichés of the dangerous “dark continent” and the primitive lust of its inhabitants that you’d swear the game was written in the 1920s. That Sheva neatly fits the approved Hollywood model of the light-skinned black heroine, and talks more like Lara Croft than her thickly-accented foes, merely compounds the problem rather than easing it. There are even more outrageous and outdated images to be found later in the game, stuff that I was honestly surprised to see in 2009, but Capcom has specifically asked that details of these scenes remain under wraps for now, whether for these reasons we don’t know.

There will be plenty of people who refuse to see anything untoward in this material. “It wasn’t racist when the enemies were Spanish in Resident Evil 4,” goes the argument, but then the Spanish don’t have the baggage of being stereotyped as subhuman animals for the past two hundred years. It’s perfectly possible to use Africa as the setting for a powerful and troubling horror story, but when you’re applying the concept of people being turned into savage monsters onto an actual ethnic group that has long been misrepresented as savage monsters, it’s hard to see how elements of race weren’t going to be a factor.

All it will take is for one mainstream media outlet to show the heroic Chris Redfield stamping on the face of a black woman, splattering her skull, and the controversy over Manhunt 2 will seem quaint by comparison. If we’re going to accept this sort of imagery in games then questions are going be asked, these questions will have merit, and we’re going to need a more convincing answer than “lol it’s just a game.”

 

[bootski]

After this #gamergate mob has continued its crusade, against NeoGAF in particular -- for attempting to be socially progressive and for banning some of the hateful #gamergate proponents -- I threw out some (crass, of course; I love it) tweets toward the movement in response, and have since been met with harassment, hate speech, and doxing attempts.

To be clear, this is a movement with no real discernible agenda other than hate and harassment, stemming from disdain toward the idea of social equality. And its main weapon seems to be, hilariously, throwing back all of those terms at its "oppressors." Socially progressive website like RPS that has tried to expose and tackle difficult social issues in the gaming scene? Label it sexist, misogynist, hypocritical, *and* "SJW." Same thing for NeoGAF, Kotaku, Polygon, and whatever other sites have tried to talk about gaming's social problems. No matter what the stated agenda is, the commentary always comes back to this bizarre "SJW vs MRA" debate, and that colors the whole argument.

Bizarrely, now, it has taken on real and supposed women (I say supposed because many of the accounts I saw on twitter had 0 following/followed and 1 tweet, yet fully filled out profiles about being a "girl gamer") with the #notyourshield hashtag, which again attempts to obfuscate the real agenda here by using women to label the socially progressive people taking sides against the hate mob as misogynists.

It's all a farce. I've rolled my eyes at lots of the articles and debates trying too hard to label the gaming scene or video games in general as scummy and sexist over the last few years, and I've spoken about that many times. But this movement is not the rallying cry you want to answer. It really is the embodiment of everything wrong with video game culture.

you tried to say that the #gamergate movement was sexist in one breath and then immediately insulted the size of a woman's vagina in the very next. very indicative of the rampant stupidity that's going on on twitter right now.

 

[Noaloha]

So yes, they *should* say "I agree with X" but I disagree with them on Y and Z.

I'm not sure a hashtag-based Twitter fight offers this degree of clarification to those partaking.

You'd be better served at this point writing a well-worded, passionate email and sending it to the editor of every games media outlet you can, clearly stating that you're opting for this avenue to open up discussion, and eschewing the Twitter shitshow. Might work!

 

[Orayn]

This kind of mindset is poisonous. Yes, you should judge an argument based on the argument, not the nature of the person discussing it. That's called an Ad-Hominem fallacy.

So yes, they *should* say "I agree with X" but I disagree with them on Y and Z. When did agreement with one idea mean that you must then agree with all past and future things that person did or say? Ridiculousness. Talk like this only makes the issue worse.

It's not necessarily a case of ad hominem (or more generally the genetic fallacy) to raise the possibility that someone's actions have an ulterior motive that fits in with their past behavior.

 

[Freshmaker]

This may seem a little abstract but hear me out. I think the root of this whole "issue" is that we really don't have a truly independent gaming press. By independent, I mean a press that is not beholden to the very interests it is supposed to cover.

Given the nature of the industry and the subject being covered, that is impossible.


That's really not the issue as I see it though. The way the internet is now vs how it was 5 years ago is very different in a lot of respects. There are few established media sites left now and that leaves the door open for anyone to say whatever they like.

If you want to angrily scold a developer for making a witch with giant boobs, that's now a news piece. 5 years ago such a thin story probably never would've been published.

The gatekeepers are gone, and we're going to just have to ride the waves until new gatekeepers arise to start sorting out the signal to noise and up the discourse level again.

 

[SturokBGD]

Q: Does the gaming community deserve to have a bad name?

A: The community does not. These people within the community do.

And that's all anybody ever had to say! Nice one, Jennifer Hale.

 

[zeldablue]

This reminded me of that Eurogamer coverage of RE5 back then, which I liked because it elegantly and concisely outlined what could be so problematic that it deserved a better conversation than "lol people get offended about anything".
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to reread it.

All of that stuff is true. Very true.

However the Japanese are incredibly ignorant when it comes to racial and religious sensitivities. They live in cultural isolation, and they only have our media to use as their understanding. Needless to say, their understanding of African Americans and Africans is...awful. They literally just see what our racist media shows. They are so insensitive that I can never bring myself to judge them. It's like yelling at grampa for saying something racist.

EDIT: Jennifer Hale wants to talk to this Adam guy over lunch. Ooooooooooh, this is getting crazy.

 

[Cybit]

.Do you want to watch 4 hour videos of people refuting everything and saying how everything is a sham and that racism doesn't really exist? 'Cause that's what you'll get.

Wait, isn't that FOX News already?

 

[marrec]

EDIT: Jennifer Hale wants to talk to this Adam guy over lunch. Ooooooooooh, this is getting crazy.

The more opportunities that Baldwin has to prove he's a fucking nut the better. Give him a bigger microphone. Maybe they'll invite him on Fox News to talk about it. XP

More seriously though, the more people openly talk about the actual issues the better, but I don't believe for a second that Adam Baldwin gives a shit about the journalistic integrity of Kotaku.

 

[Noaloha]

If you want to angrily scold a developer for making a witch with giant boobs, that's now a news piece. 5 years ago such a thin story probably never would've been published.

It's not a news piece. It's an opinion piece.

The gatekeepers are gone, and we're going to just have to ride the waves until new gatekeepers arise to start sorting out the signal to noise and up the discourse level again.

Upping the level of discourse is precisely one of the (potential) benefits of publishing opinion pieces. I'll take a angry scolding -- or, impossible as you may think it sounds, a considered critique -- of a boobplate incident over a re-written press release or account of a junket event any day of the week. And ideally, I'm allowed the option to read both!

 

[Freshmaker]

Upping the level of discourse is precisely one of the (potential) benefits of publishing opinion pieces. I'll take a angry scolding -- or, impossible as you may think it sounds, a considered critique -- of a boobplate incident over a re-written press release or account of a junket event any day of the week. And ideally, I'm allowed the option to read both!

I will never call a shrill talking down to as measured criticism.

 

[Palette Swap]

All of that stuff is true. Very true.

However the Japanese are incredibly ignorant when it comes to racial and religious sensitivities. They live in cultural isolation, and they only have our media to use as their understanding. Needless to say, their understanding of African Americans and Africans is...awful. They literally just see what our racist media shows. They are so insensitive that I can never bring myself to judge them. It's like yelling at grampa for saying something racist.

Oh yeah, I get that, I'm not completely giving Japanese devs a free pass, particularly for games designed for the West too, but I'm aware of the cultural differences.

Rereading the piece, I remembered the number of kneejerks reactions dismissing the notion this was racist as outlandish. It kind of goes to show things have evolved as the conversation wouldn't be the same today. My point was about the whole ecosystem, not singling out the devs.

 

[marrec]

I will never call a shrill talking down to as measured criticism.

What you call it doesn't invalidate it's necessity within a media if the culture and community want to do more than just make the same thing over and over again or give it any more power to shape the culture than consumers are willing to give it.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I'd love for someone to analyse race in games the same way Anita Sarkeesian has done it for the women issues.

Would kickstarter.

I've been preparing a kickstarter on this for over a year.

Wanted to make sure I've done enough research, but life sort of got in the way. I had some people on board for interviews like Patrick Klepek and Ian Bogost, but the legwork on this sort of thing is completely and utterly insane.

 

[Noaloha]

I've been preparing a kickstarter on this for over a year.

Wanted to make sure I've done enough research, but life sort of got in the way. I had some people on board for interviews like Patrick Klepek and Ian Bogost, but the legwork on this sort of thing is completely and utterly insane.

Awesome!

Can you give any sort of approximate "hopefully should be ready to launch by around ___" date, or is it all still too prep-stagey for such an estimate to have any real worth?

 

[Freshmaker]

What you call it doesn't invalidate it's necessity within a media if the culture and community want to do more than just make the same thing over and over again or give it any more power to shape the culture than consumers are willing to give it.

If the delivery makes me not take it seriously, then there is a problem with the delivery.

Generally I avoid playing or buying fanservice games because of what they represent etc, but I'm not going to start raving at the devs.

 

[jschreier]

http://apgnation.com/archives/2014/09/09/6977/truth-gaming-interview-fine-young-capitalists

And why was that?

People keep asking me about this, so I addressed it here: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s9dufq