Destiny's Raid, 'Vault of Glass' is now available to play. Hardest challenge yet.

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The stream makes it obvious that Bungie wasn't lying -- raids are designed for well organized groups of skilled players, which is simply incompatible with MM. At the end of the day, people asking for MM are really just asking for them to nerf the raid difficulty so that it's viable for MM like strikes.

We already have strikes. I'm not sure if I'll ever get to do a raid (I'm busy, my friends are busy and suck at games), but I'm glad raids are special. I'm sick of games being dumbed down for the lowest common denominator. It's ok for games to create content for different types of gamers.
 
ffejeromdiks said:
Do you really want to do a 6+ hour raid with people you don't even know? People who will inevitably rage quit and refuse to communicate making it literally impossible to finish? Say you can't finish it one sitting, and you want to return to it later...what exactly are the chances that all 5 of the other guys are ever going to be on again at the same time?

Cannot believe so many people would even want to attempt this with randoms, cause even if you could, you'd be on here posting "Why did I buy this? I can't beat this stupid raid!"
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Could you imagine having a shit fireteam leader doing this? You would be stuck to their progress (or lack thereof). I would rather die playing people I know and trust than randoms

Regular strike missions are hard enough with 2 other randoms.
 
Two Words said:
Yeah this is the most hilarious part. If they are worried ransoms will quit quickly, just put a suspension on them for an hour or 2 to make that happen less.
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That's my issue, there are plenty of games with systems that have sorted out this issue already.

Level 26 is already going to keep a lot of people from joining without intending to finish. Perhaps a time or gear penalty for those who quit (XP loss, etc).

Plenty of games have sorted this out and the reality is as a console game I sort of expect getting to content in an online game to not have so many hoops to jump through to access.

I'll probably wind up putting a raid together with GAF at some point when my wife is out of town. That will probably happen once. Elsewise I'll have a random Saturday afternoon open up and will probably do something else with my time since finding a random group online is much harder than finding a random group in game.
 
can't believe that people are actually defending Bungie and their awfully stupid decision of not including the matchmaking. first of all, this is not a problem just for this raid. besides that, I don't care if it's really long or hard. if I buy this game 3 months from now and I won't find anyone (or 6 people, yeah, you need six.) here or any other forum when I want to play the fucking raid, well, I can't play it.

I won't finish it with randoms? Who. Fucking. Cares. at least I'll be able to play it.

there could have been a lot of ways to implement a matchmaking system in this. different difficulties? Divide the whole thing in less longer chapters? Etc.

but hey, keep defending this garbage, please.

family_guy said:
I think the point is that coordinating a time that works for 6 people is still a hassle as opposed to just having the game match you up. If for some reason one of your players can't make it then the game SHOULD fill that slot for you.
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also this.
 
tranciful said:
The stream makes it obvious that Bungie wasn't lying -- raids are designed for well organized groups of skilled players, which is simply incompatible with MM. At the end of the day, people asking for MM are really just asking for them to nerf the raid difficulty so that it's viable for MM like strikes.

We already have strikes. I'm not sure if I'll ever get to do a raid (I'm busy, my friends are busy and suck at games), but I'm glad raids are special. I'm sick of games being dumbed down for the lowest common denominator. It's ok for games to create content for different types of gamers.
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Yup, pretty much my exact same opinion after watching what this raid is all about.
 
Holy fuck this thread is just another " whine about Destiny " thread.

Not even talking about the Raid anymore

img-2760794-1-3770820-9363323418-aband.gif
 
XANDER CAGE said:
They'd just turn out to be rares anyway so it's not like it matters.
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I farmed for a bit. I got 6 legendary engrams over a few hours. Two were legendary items, the rest materials or blues.

I'd rather just have found the two. Same thing in the end and nowhere near as frustrating.
 
The more I watch the streams the more I don't want to do this with randos. I want to do this with a focused group of friends who is used to playing together.

Has anyone made it past the 1 tier boss yet? I am rooting for datto and his crew to be the first to finish. If someone has finished please ignore this comment. lol. Been workin.
 
Bungie doesn't want you joining with random people to do raids no matter where you pick them up. GAF, the tower, MM, anywhere... you do see that right? Yes, you CAN pick up people using these methods and play the raid, but that doesn't mean it's the method Bungie is promoting.

They want you to find 5 other people that you have played with, know their playstyles, know they have good communication, know their gear stacks well with yours, and know when (timezones etc) they CAN play since you have to use the same fireteam if you quit and want to pick it back up later, etc... I agree, finding randoms via GAF, b.net, etc... isn't a good solution to the MM exclusion for Raids... Bungie apparently agrees as well.

But people keep saying "so what, they won't give me MM for Raids so they instead have us joining with randoms on GAF? GG!!" No. You can do that, yes, but it is not the recommended method. Attempt it and you may succeed, but the odds are stacked against you more than they would be had you done your research.
 
StoOgE said:
That's my issue, there are plenty of games with systems that have sorted out this issue already.

Level 26 is already going to keep a lot of people from joining without intending to finish. Perhaps a time or gear penalty for those who quit (XP loss, etc).

Plenty of games have sorted this out and the reality is as a console game I sort of expect getting to content in an online game to not have so many hoops to jump through to access.

I'll probably wind up putting a raid together with GAF at some point when my wife is out of town. That will probably happen once. Elsewise I'll have a random Saturday afternoon open up and will probably do something else with my time since finding a random group online is much harder than finding a random group in game.
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Lemme know if you wanna coop. PM me
 
Having no matchmaking is stupid, really really stupid. Communication is stupidly limited in game, so you basically have to play with 5 friends who happen to play Destiny too, at the same time as you. Friends you had before, not friends you made ingame, since you can't make friends ingame. You can't even communicate with your clan. You can't even know who's online for gods sake.

People here are relying on LFG topics on forums or dedicated sites. You know what those are? Those are random matchmaking. Only not automatic, you have to do it yourself, like it's 2003 or something. This is insane.

I know raids are hard, good, they're supposed to. But making friends to play with is also hard in Destiny. Either have automatic matchmaking, or have better communication options with other players. Having none is insane.

Raids are too hard with randoms? Okay, sure. Let me be the judge of that. Let me raid with randoms, and fail miserably. I don't mind. At least I'm playing.
 
Nugg said:
Having no matchmaking is stupid, really really stupid. Communication is stupidly limited in game, so you basically have to play with 5 friends who happen to play Destiny too, at the same time as you. Friends you had before, not friends you made ingame, since you can't make friends ingame. You can't even communicate with your clan. You can't even know who's online for gods sake.

People here are relying on LFG topics on forums or dedicated sites. You know what those are? Those are random matchmaking. Only not automatic, you have to do it yourself, like it's 2003 or something. This is insane.

I know raids are hard, good, they're supposed to. But making friends to play with is also hard in Destiny. Either have automatic matchmaking, or have better communication options with other players. Having none is insane.
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Yep, all of this. It's nuts that this is happening to us in a game at the end of 2014.
 
Zakalwe said:
Why not?
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You do realize you are comparing the game to Destiny, right?



Play some games. Add people. Join fireteams and chat. Build up a group.

Doesn't take long.
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Or Bungie could have had the foresight or social gaming knowledge to add the most basic of social game features. This is 2014. This is the utmost basic stuff that is missing in this game. Stuff that has been part of MMOs for 20 years nearly. It is not defensible.
 
Homeboyd said:
They want you to find 5 other people that you have played with, know their playstyles, know they have good communication,
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And how do you get to know all that stuff the very first time? Yo don't. You have to play with randoms first, found here or another forums. Then you will know how they play. If they can communicate or not. MM help to do this part.


Homeboyd said:
know their gear stacks well with yours,
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Basic matchmaking filter

Homeboyd said:
and know when (timezones etc) they CAN play since you have to use the same fireteam if you quit and want to pick it back up later, etc...
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Ehmmm. Matchmaking won't put you with people in the future. It will put you with people playing in the very same moment.

Homeboyd said:
I agree, finding randoms via GAF, b.net, etc... isn't a good solution to the MM exclusion for Raids... Bungie apparently agrees as well.
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There is no way that Bungie did this at purpose with zero social features. Is just a technical limitation because MM in this kind of content is more complex. Is not just put together a bunch of people. It use save state and need to put together people with the same state (boss 1 down, chest 1 down). Is the exact reason why the weekly strike doesn't have MM. There is no fucking reason, they just can't.
 
-tetsuo- said:
You do realize you are comparing the game to Destiny, right?
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You'll have to elaborate.

-tetsuo- said:
Or Bungie could have had the foresight or social gaming knowledge to add the most basic of social game features. This is 2014. This is the utmost basic stuff that is missing in this game. Stuff that has been part of MMOs for 20 years nearly. It is not defensible.
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I agree with you.

The point is you can easily add people in game despite the lack of features.
 
NullPointer said:
The thing I don't get is how different really is it to recruit through a forum as opposed to matchmaking? Or bugging people at random in the tower or out in the open world?

Except of course, its more difficult with those methods as opposed to a real-time algorithm that can find people that want to raid, right then and there, matching your region.

I think, for some people, the fact that its arbitrarily difficult and exclusionary is exactly what provides the appeal.
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I think the key difference is that with people matchmaking or being bugged at random it's "I'd like to play now. You are here and playing the game; would you like to play with me?". Over a forum it's a delayed-response thing; "I'd like to play at 6pm tonight. Anyone else gonna be around?"

Edit: And if something comes up and one of the group can't make it, the whole group is screwed. Five people just wasted their time.
 
Also the whole narrative that has built up in the thread and in possibly bungie's mind that randoms are completely useless and a waste of time is shortsighted. Some of the best moments I had online in games were being teamed up in a CoD zombie mode with 3 other funny as hell yet good players, random drop ins on Borderlands,etc.

Yea there are some bad match ups so what, just move on and start a new search. The option to have random matchmaking is better then none at all
 
This Athean boss moves slow and just fires slow moving grenades. Makes it quite challenging. The guy who's streaming is doing a ton of damage too, but he's barely making a dent. Also, the critical spot on him is super small, but when he hits him there, it's like 2.5x damage. Seems like if you're fighting the boss you'll need the sniper.
 
IAmRandom31 said:
The real question is, " how fun are the battles? "

Really the only question worth asking.
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But I already know the answer to that. There's two encounter types (kill everyone and then move on or kill everyone and then focus fire on the bullet sponge boss) and at most three enemy factions (have and fallen are basically the same "shoot these humanoids 2-3 times in the head unless maybe some melee dudes rush you").

What I want is "kill enough to clear a path to a power weapon/vehicle/situation where I do anything but LT-RT heads from cover".

Two Words said:
You don't even defend him. At no point does the AI attempt to attack the Ghost.
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hah yes. "Hold X to hold position".
 
Nugg said:
People here are relying on LFG topics on forums or dedicated sites. You know what those are? Those are random matchmaking. Only not automatic, you have to do it yourself, like it's 2003 or something. This is insane.
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Except it is not. It's totally different thing. Other requires at least some from of coordination dedication, other is made automatically a system. Which one sounds more fit?

Matchmaking is a shitty system for anything that needs coordination, dedication or at least some sort of skill. It didn't work for Resistance 2. It didn't work with Left 4 friggin' Dead.
 
marianitten said:
And how do you get to know all that stuff the very first time? Yo don't. You have to play with randoms first, found here or another forums. Then you will know how they play. If they can communicate or not. MM help to do this part.
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Right, you play with them in explore, crucible, strikes, stuff that doesn't require communication like raids do.
Basic matchmaking filter
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Ok?
Ehmmm. Matchmaking won't put you with people in the future. Will put you with people playing in the very same moment.
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I don't even know what your point is here. Like I said, if you get matched with random people NOW and you run the raid for a couple hours and someone gets tired and wants to quit, you're fucked. And now, if you want to pick the raid back up the next day, you have to go find those same 5 people MM matched you with the first time or start all over. Now if you're saying they should remove that requirement, ok, but it's there so MM would be horrible because of it (among many other reasons).
 
Homeboyd said:
Bungie doesn't want you joining with random people to do raids no matter where you pick them up. GAF, the tower, MM, anywhere... you do see that right? Yes, you CAN pick up people using these methods and play the raid, but that doesn't mean it's the method Bungie is promoting.

They want you to find 5 other people that you have played with, know their playstyles, know they have good communication, know their gear stacks well with yours, and know when (timezones etc) they CAN play since you have to use the same fireteam if you quit and want to pick it back up later, etc... I agree, finding randoms via GAF, b.net, etc... isn't a good solution to the MM exclusion for Raids... Bungie apparently agrees as well.

But people keep saying "so what, they won't give me MM for Raids so they instead have us joining with randoms on GAF? GG!!" No. You can do that, yes, but it is not the recommended method. Attempt it and you may succeed, but the odds are stacked against you more than they would be had you done your research.
Click to expand...

maybe they should have let you have more than a 3 person fire team for the base game then?

It would be like valve making DOTA and CS 5v5 in playlists, but tournaments are 7v7

not everyone has 6 friends with this game. let alone people at their level, with the gear, with the skill and the communication. its like bungie literally expected every human on the planet to buy this game.
 
No matchmaking? It's like we're back in 2008.

This game reminds me a lot of D3 at launch. Excellent combat mechanics, not much else. D3 did turn out to be good so hopefully Destiny improves as well.
 
ffejeromdiks said:
Do you really want to do a 6+ hour raid with people you don't even know? People who will inevitably rage quit and refuse to communicate making it literally impossible to finish? Say you can't finish it one sitting, and you want to return to it later...what exactly are the chances that all 5 of the other guys are ever going to be on again at the same time?

Cannot believe so many people would even want to attempt this with randoms, cause even if you could, you'd be on here posting "Why did I buy this? I can't beat this stupid raid!"
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People making these comments have to have 0 end game raid experience. You can't beat a fuggin raid with randoms smh...
 
Homeboyd said:
They want you to find 5 other people that you have played with, know their playstyles, know they have good communication, know their gear stacks well with yours, and know when (timezones etc) they CAN play since you have to use the same fireteam if you quit and want to pick it back up later, etc... I agree, finding randoms via GAF, b.net, etc... isn't a good solution to the MM exclusion for Raids... Bungie apparently agrees as well.
Click to expand...

Is the game a sufficiently good environment for developing and nurturing those communal bonds?
 
Omega Rex said:
maybe they should have let you have more than a 3 person fire team for the base game then?

It would be like valve making DOTA and CS 5v5 in playlists, but tournaments are 7v7

not everyone has 6 friends with this game. let alone people at their level, with the gear, with the skill and the communication. its like bungie literally expected every human on the planet to buy this game.
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Yeah that's a valid complaint. So is the lack of proximity chat/etc.. to actually "meet" other people in the game world.

mclem said:
Is the game a sufficiently good environment for developing and nurturing those communal bonds?
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No. I agree.
 
Sir TapTap said:
And how long does it take? I probably won't reinstall the game for it, but I was expecting to see more discussion about it (not matchmaking) here.
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Looks fun from the streams. From what I gather it would be better if everyone was 27+. Have some void weapons with you if you can because shields are up and things have to be done quickly. Lots of teams I have seen so far don't seem very balanced. I was expecting 2 of every class with subclasses split to cover all bases just in case, but it looks like I was the only one thinking that. I didn't realize there were so few Titans. I have been watching and picking all the spots I would ground pound or drop a bubble or toss a void grenade. So frustrating.
 
PetriP-TNT said:
Except it is not. It's totally different thing. Other requires at least some from of coordination dedication, other is made automatically a system. Which one sounds more fit?
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Exactly.

The main problem with MM is the lack of commitment.

Geneally, people who seek out groups on forums will be more committed to the game than the people who click on the MM option.

Not saying there shouldn't be MM, but the comparison that it's the same as forum hunting is inaccurate.
 
tranciful said:
, which is simply incompatible with MM. At the end of the day, people asking for MM are really just asking for them to nerf the raid difficulty so that it's viable for MM like strikes.
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Can people stop saying this bullshit like it's fact please? I'm a random and I'm fucking good at video games. Half my friends lists are filled with randoms, some of them being some of the best pc players in the world. We only talked because of the games inherit chat functions, and have done and won many things together. Some people just don't have the time or will to have a consistent baseline of friends for every game. My friends from CS don't play mohaa, and my friends from bf don't play Coh, so I'm always playing with randoms.

It's really sad that the makers of proximity chat have gotten so antisocial minded.


And if a random is trying to raid they obviously are aware of the "requirements."
 
marianitten said:
Ehmmm. Matchmaking won't put you with people in the future. Will put you with people playing in the very same moment.
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Those people won't be the same people you've practiced with so it's like starting over and wasting several hours failing over and over again. The whole point is to find a group you play with consistently as you slowly get better over several sessions -- MM doesn't help that. You'll still have timezone and time commitment issues no matter how you find your group.

Until newer gear makes this raid easier, it's simply incompatible with MM. Sorry. You shouldn't have assumed Bungie was lying.
 
Homeboyd said:
I don't even know what your point is here. Like I said, if you get matched with random people NOW and you run the raid for a couple hours and someone gets tired and wants to quit, you're fucked. And now, if you want to pick the raid back up the next day, you have to go find those same 5 people MM matched you with the first time or start all over. Now if you're saying they should remove that requirement, ok, but it's there so MM would be horrible because of it (among many other reasons).
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And that won't happen with the people in the GAF thread? Can we mark people as quitter / moron / AFKer in there?
 
LyleLanley said:
Doesn't WOW have a raid matchmaking system? If that works I don't see why Destiny can't have a similar system.
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This is the honest truth. Anyone who says that randoms can't finish a raid are deluding themselves. Will randoms be getting server first on raids? No, of course not. But at a certain point, all (ALL) raids become "puggable", as it's called.
 
commish said:
This is the honest truth. Anyone who says that randoms can't finish a raid are deluding themselves. Will randoms be getting server first on raids? No, of course not. But at a certain point, all (ALL) raids become "puggable", as it's called.
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They will probably open it up in the future. Like FFXIV did with coil.
 
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