Yes.
#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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Yes.
I wish we could just send emails to all their moms recommending a little time-out.
LiegeWaffle
Member
I suspect that nobody will actually make such move after they saw how well that worked out for Intel.
More_Badass
Member
I don't see people with a cause or a movement. From their actions and their behavior, I see bullies. That's all this Gamergate group is, bullies who suddenly found themselves with power through social media and a stage to spew their hate and twisted beliefs
They're using bullying behaviour, but I wouldn't say they're bullies. They're a paranoid mob.
I am quoting this post to point out that it is awful and horrible and completely devoid of any real content and that you should feel bad for making it.
Either come with real arguments that can actually be addressed or just stay the hell out of the thread. Is that so hard?
I'm optimistic that the mess Intel got themselves in will dissuade anybody else from obliging #GG.
Pretty shady of #GG to be omitting #GamerGate from their emails to purposefully mislead, though.
Side note -- I've yet to find a #GG figure with more than a couple thousand twitter followers. Puts it into perspective how numerous they are -- definitely seems like a vocal (and organized) minority.
Pretty shady of #GG to be omitting #GamerGate from their emails to purposefully mislead, though.
Side note -- I've yet to find a #GG figure with more than a couple thousand twitter followers. Puts it into perspective how numerous they are -- definitely seems like a vocal (and organized) minority.
More_Badass
Member
What exactly are you trying to argue or state here? What are you saying? You're just vaguely criticizing what others have said, not stating your own opinion on the matter
And please don't make unsubstantiated generalizations about people, that's just insulting
Most of the things in my list are fairly self-evident and are impossible for me to provide evidence for (since I'm pointing out debunked claims which by definition have no evidence)
Here's some other links for items in my list:
On Zoe Quinn and Nathan Grayson
Kotaku shows that Nathan never wrote the articles he was accused of writing: http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346
RPS: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...-valve-greenlights-50-more-games/#more-183169
This is the only article Nathan ever wrote on Rock Paper Shotgun that mentioned Depression quest.
Accusations against Zoe and Anita that they made up threats, never filed police reports
These are common accusations you can find everywhere on GamerGate, Mens Rights Activists, and other similar websites. It is baseless speculation that has never been substantiated. Mostly rooted in blatant misogyny, but of course they'll deny that to the high heavens.
One example of accusations (WARNING: awful MRAs at the link): http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2fb7px/why_would_anybody_believe_that_anita_sarkeesian/
This doesn't need much to debunk, since it sounds utterly ridiculous to anyone without a vested interest of making them look bad, but the FBI did specifically confirmed a bomb threat against Anita:
http://www.polygon.com/2014/9/17/6225835/fbi-investigating-anita-sarkeesian-threats
Donations to charity
Zoe Quinn was accused of lying about donating DQ proceeds to charity. Charity confirms the donations were actually received
I haven't seen much of anything concerning Giant Bomb or Patrick Klepek today, at least nothing more than the usual hot air. The most ire from today has been directed towards RPS and Nvidia and that whole stupid nonsense.
Gerstmann clearly the very symbol of bowing to publisher pressure, lack of transparency, and corruption.
Dev behind Kingdom Come currently throwing a pity party for himself because the evil SJW media isn't covering his game's Alpha update. Ignoring all context that it's pretty hard for PC games to get covered by the average site that's not dedicated to PC games, and that most alpha games don't get much coverage until they're a bit more complete (as in, entering Beta generally). Even Hyper Light Drifter, probably more anticipated, is barely getting any coverage for its' beta build.
And of course GGers eating it up as proof he's been blacklisted.
And of course GGers eating it up as proof he's been blacklisted.
StreetsAhead
Member
I can't believe they're encouraging people to ask for college credit for reading DiGRA papers in an effort to 'fact check' them.
No college or university will give them credit for doing that anyway.
I've looked through my recent emails and press releases and have seen nothing about that game. It's also the first I (as far as I can recall) am even hearing about that game. That is to say, their PR leaves a lot to be desired.
Furthermore, it's an update for an alpha. Nobody with much sense about them is going to bother with a news story on that unless they run a fansite for that particular game or genre, or it's a really slow news day.
MHWilliams
Member
That would require seeing a press release or anything. Trying to keep track of the tons of game updates during review season is a nightmare, even if I did keep up with specific milestones.
I've heard of it before. I remember reading an RPS preview by Nathan Grayson, but it's not my thing, so I didn't follow it beyond that.
tonysidaway
Member
Via David Hill:
https://twitter.com/RaygunBrown/status/518546482358546432
It turns out that in real life the actor Adam Baldwin (no relation) is as mad as a box of frogs.
https://twitter.com/RaygunBrown/status/518546482358546432
It turns out that in real life the actor Adam Baldwin (no relation) is as mad as a box of frogs.
I thought this was widely known? I never understood why these people decided to latch onto him. He's always had crazy political views.
More_Badass
Member
The ironic thing is that RPS had previously done 10 articles on Kingdom Come
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/kingdom-come-deliverance/
An interview or preview for a new game, or a game that is newly announced is certainly one thing, of course. But to get upset because there was no coverage on an alpha update for a game that isn't even due for a final public release until the end of 2015? Come on.
Did they reach out to outlets through contact forms about getting news up? Or did they expect those posting news to just know about the new developments in their game? News posters aren't Spider-Man, we don't have a sense that kicks in going, "oh, news is over here, better get it!" Even then, it's still the final decision of those running the site if something is worth posting or not and he really shouldn't get in such a huff about it. I'm sure the PR for his company isn't too thrilled about what he's said.
LiegeWaffle
Member
As in, Nathan Grayson wrote about their game 1000x more than he wrote about Depression Quest? I find this simply amazing. The amount of logic in GamerGate approaches minus infinity closer and closer with every single day.
I haven't been following this idiotic debacle all that much but is JonTron considered a "good guy" by the #GamerGate crowd? Not that I cared about him to begin with but I'd never thought he'd be on that side of things.
He bowed out early but he was pretty much their champion for about a week. Usual things like "Why don't Sarkeesian allow comments on her videos" and tweeting porn comics of Zoe Quinn. I think he's been disowned by the movement at large though, like Boogie, because he decided to not be associated with it anymore.
Baldwin. American Enterprise Institute. Breitbart. Infowars. They got them all.
Sub_Level
wants to fuck an Asian grill.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Yeah... usual.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Is this the same moron who dismissed the existence of harassment in the industry because people like Amy Hennig never talk about it? Sure makes me glad I didn't back their game after all.
More_Badass
Member
On Twitter? Checked the Warhorse Studios page, didn't see anything like this
The lead guy, the one that's outspoken, Daniel Vavra. https://twitter.com/DanielVavra If you search the game's title you can find GGers talking about the "blacklist." And popular GG rag techraptor has this article up http://techraptor.net/content/anti-gamergate-publications-blacklist-kingdom-come-deliverance
I'm not sure if he name dropped her but yeah, he did have similar platitudes about women in the industry.
The Blue Jihad
Member
Stuff like:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132803573
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132834758
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132840002
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132803573
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132902729
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132902222
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132843206
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132896726
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132897005
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132844493
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132898067
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132888428
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132869789
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132868940
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132846521
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132845615
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132846686
Examples of everything I'm talking about. The shitty giggling in the back of the classroom. The utter lack of any real sense of decorum. "Not right now" in responses to raising concerns about how media has been acting. Props to Cyan for shutting some of that garbage down, but I just can't imagine that posts like "Fucking lol" are considered adequate and respectable.
But hey, what do I know. I'm in the asylum with the rest of you lunatics, anyway.
More_Badass
Member
Oh, thanks for the compliment. Much appreciated
You act as if comments like that are the main kinds of discussion going on, cherrypicking while on the same pages you have posts such as
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132944618
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=132988379
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=133006382
As well framing those comments out of context, as few of those are reactions to Gamergate related posts and controversy (the /Philosophy of Rape comment stemming from a post about some GG rumor on Twitter that had links to Reddit)
And as I had stated before, you're just vaguely criticizing what others have said, not stating your own opinion on the matter. Why don't you contribute and discuss your thoughts and beliefs rather than insult and make unsubstantiated generalizations?
endless dave
Member
In a 173 page thread are you really that bothered that some people are snickering or making jokes about the whole thing? Especially when the vast majority of discussion as been on point?
More_Badass
Member
Nvm
Exactly one link saying anything approaching "Not Now" (With perfectly good reasoning) with a couple saying "Maybe this is not the best place."
And then a whole bunch of stuff where you feel like you, or the things you support, or just some random things, are being laughed at, often completely justifiably?
For most of this stuff there is no appropriate response but ridicule. I consider this entire situation ridiculous. It would be actively hilarious if it hadn't been so harmful.
Maybe instead of pointing out moments where people have ridiculed ridiculous things (Because this is something to be ashamed of I guess?) why not present something that you feel is not ridiculous, so that we can maybe get on your level, discourse-wise.
Unless these examples are things that you don't believe deserve the reactions they got, in which case, you're probably right to take the out.
And then a whole bunch of stuff where you feel like you, or the things you support, or just some random things, are being laughed at, often completely justifiably?
For most of this stuff there is no appropriate response but ridicule. I consider this entire situation ridiculous. It would be actively hilarious if it hadn't been so harmful.
Maybe instead of pointing out moments where people have ridiculed ridiculous things (Because this is something to be ashamed of I guess?) why not present something that you feel is not ridiculous, so that we can maybe get on your level, discourse-wise.
Unless these examples are things that you don't believe deserve the reactions they got, in which case, you're probably right to take the out.
Thanks for the examples. There are a few which don't contribute to discussion, but I still don't think this is nearly as big of a problem as you're presenting it to be, though.
I do think you're right in that we should be discussing things, so I'll talk about all of them. Screenshots used for clarity.
If I understand you correctly, you're accusing the members in these examples of trying to stifle discussion about media corruption. In this post, Partyphone is actually criticizing a corporation's public statement for being disingenious. This is not stifling discussion. This is discussion.
Lime here has posted a statement from Gamergate, a satirical discussion from its opponents, and has stated their own opinion on it. This is also discussion; they're not just making fun of a side, they're showing exactly what it is about that side that they're making fun of. The implication is that the statement is so ridiculous that a reader should instantly recognize the problem.
As a follow up to the previous example, Morrigan Stark is pointing out that this is only acceptable because it's satirizing Alec Baldwin's statements. If Devin Faraci and Leigh Alexander were simply insulting Baldwin rather than highlighting the ridiculousity of his reasoning, then she also would believe that it's just the "giggling in the back of the classroom" you've talked about. This is discussion.
I can agree that Labor probably shouldn't be acting as if the whole of Reddit is represented by this particular subreddit, though it is Reddit's policies that allow this subreddit to exist. This post itself doesn't contribute, but if you'd look back one page, this particular point has been discussed by Orayn and others. Evidently, discussion has not been stifled.
I agree that this post did not contribute to discussion.
While Partyphone probably shouldn't have been so dismissive - doxxing of any kind is something to be criticized - he did open himself up to criticism by researching and posted the stated issue. He did this while providing an opinion of his own. Further discussion could come out of a post like this, either by countering his opinion or by posting out how posting a real name without permission is unacceptable. Discussion has not been stifled.
Oersted is just stating their own opinion on this subreddit. He isn't even criticizing Gamergate or Reddit as a whole in this particular post. This isn't stifling discussion at all. Does discussion mean that we're all supposed to pretend that we don't have opinions and that we never think anyone is in the wrong?
Exact same as above. I think "rape is bad" is one of those things that are pretty fair to assume without further discussion, especially considering the psychological trauma we've seen associated with it.
I can agree with you here, this is just being snarky and not actually contributing to the discussion.
This is the only example of "not right now" I've seen in these examples, and it's not trying to dismiss legitimate concerns at all. Jstripes is repeating an opinion that has been stated by others before; those with legitimate concerns that do not want to be associated with a harassment campaign should choose another label and start afresh.
I can agree with this one as well. Jstripes should be criticizing the action and not the person.
I can understand why this might seem dismissive, but it actually isn't. Tonysidaway is replying to a post which questions why Gamergate is reacting differently to two different people. He is providing what he believes to be an answer to the question. This is discussion.
While this one doesn't really contribute, it's not dismissing an argument or stifling discussion. Tchocky has posted about a ridiculous occurrence and Lime finds it funny. There's nothing strange about that. Someone else could check the comments on the blog if they had an issue with the statement.
Aeolist is sharing information that is relevant to the thread while making their own opinion known. I don't see how this damages discussion.
Don't see what the problem is with this. SwissLion is pointing out what their opponent's opinions seem like from their own perspective. They believe that there is a contradiction there, and there are pointing it out.
Your final example. Lime is trying to clarify SwissLion's point. Again, I don't see a problem with this.
Open discussion does not mean that neither side dominates. It means that both sides have the opportunity to explain their perspective freely, and that they will both be open to criticism if brought into the open. If one perspective is based on weak reasoning that can be picked apart, if people have opinions and are able to state them, if people are held accountable for saying horrible things that they can't back up, if ridiculous things are being ridiculed, that doesn't mean that there is a problem with the discussion.
You're free to debate anything I've said here, by the way. No one's stopping you from doing that.
The Blue Jihad
Member
That those comments happened at all is problematic. The existence of nuanced, thought out responses doesn't excuse the garbage, and it'd be nice if you could at least acknowledge the propensity for dickery here--and maybe acknowledge that it doesn't really belong in a thread that focuses on the use of language, itself.
The house is burning. This thread and its predecessors amount to little more than deciding where to put the 2nd floor piano while the house burns down. There is no solution. There is no meaningful discussion to be had. There is no way out and the only out that did exist was to not play. To stay out of it. To avoid getting dragged in. To resist the urge to jump in voluntarily. There is nothing that the "normals" here can do, and those GAFfers who are members of the press/media...they have my sympathies, because the fallout from this is going to be long-term and the major challenge will be trying to rebuild a level of trust. Coming from someone who never really identified with any group over the years, despite having spent an entire Halloween night in high school playing Metal Gear Solid 1 by myself in my parents' basement, this debacle has completely, officially soured me on gaming media.
To be fair, I've been growing increasingly disillusioned with the establishment over the past five years, but this was the breaking point. It was all bullshit drama. There was a single piece of the original problem that warranted discussion (dev/media coziness) and I didn't give two shits about any of the rest--from a gaming standpoint, at least. The corporate professional in me was a different story, because that part was livid that nobody thought it a problem that an employee slept with a supervisor. Like, what the fuck.
Then seeing all of the indignant bullshit getting tossed around. Nothing was good enough for anyone. All decisions were the wrong decisions. Damned if you did, dammed if you didn't. It was all outrage, all the time, from all directions. If everything was a problem, then nothing was. It all reminded me of the pundit handwringing during election 2008. Every single little bump in the daily numbers caused equal amounts of joy and panic, depending on which channel it was and what the numbers did. It was so cynically transparent that I stopped watching most of it months before the election and completely stopped after.
We've been conditioned by the 24-hour news cycle to always need some drama happening. That is no clearer than in American politics, but it's also become increasingly obvious in gaming media. This scandal was a perfect example. Nobody could just let it be. Everyone had to get involved, which in turn just ensured the nightmare would keep going, in a self-perpetuating cycle of horror.
And I see this thread as nothing more than a willing participant in perpetuating that cycle.
Maybe it's for the best. The past two months have proven to me that my gravitating toward primarily tabletop gaming over the last couple of years was the right decision.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Mockery of certain subjects is warranted, for sure. This is one of those subjects.
5 stories from Nathan Grayson himself. Corrupt SJW journalists are totally out to get him.
The site they most hate for its SJW agenda may have literally given the most coverage so far. You couldn't invent a worse example.
More_Badass
Member
Honestly I think this whole Gamergate "movement" should warrant at least some modicum of ridicule. Their beliefs, the sheer fanatical single-minded nature of it all, is so insane, one can't help but be stunned and scoff and chuckle nervously in disbelief. I was unaware of this whole thing until recently and was shocked by the insanity of it all. It's incredibly unsettling to see the mindset of an uncensored Internet mob given a taste of power and a target (I'm a psychology major, so it's really kind of fascinating and scary seeing how these people think)
Personally I find your opinion on games media pretty cynical and jaded. I never really bothered to follow or care about the "Who's who" of games journalism; all the names that have been a part of this whole thing have been new to me. I never had put much trust or faith in games media in the first place, focusing more on forum impressions and the like. There are some journalists I trust (Chris Priestman, Shaun Musgrave), but for the most part, 75% of the games I play aren't even covered by major sites
I guess I am part of the media, since I have a blog, where I focus on indie games, but I've given this whole situation a wide berth and kept the focus on what matters: the games.
I do think the whole hype machine nature of many of the big sites is worrying and hurtful to games and developers. I dislike review scores and rankings for that reason, totally arbritary useless values that do nothing but stoke the flames of those "tribalistic" mob tendencies that have been discussed lately
But I do feel stuff like this needs to be discussed, can be discussed in a rational manner. To avoid it, in fear of being dragged down as you say, is the worst possible choice. Maybe you feel that way, because of how you've seen discussions go in the past, and I'm sorry you feel that way. It's always better to talk and discuss and debate than remain silent
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It's so dumb, it's pretty much a self-parody.
I agree with your stance on this whole debacle, but does that really mean you have to give up your hobby?
I mean, I'm as sick of this shit-slinging festival as you are, but I'm still enjoying mah vidyah as much as ever. Luckily, none of this shit is actually seeping into the games themselves.
Lalalandia
Member
What on earth are you talking about? This is not a thread about language this is a thread about a hate campaign. Some people latched onto it because LA's language made them mad but make no mistake this is a hate campaign. Stop thread shitting because we won't let you redefine the thread into a long tone police whine about LA when that is a minor aside. You have completely and deliberately ignored the many answers to your points and the fact that we are merely unpersuaded by your point of view. A significant portion of the folks on this thread disagree with you, deal with it.
J
What the fuck are you talking about? And you keep trying to claim that this isn't about ZQ's alleges sex life.
What on earth are you talking about? No none of the MS paint diagrams meant anything and if you have ant proof worth sharing how about you do that instead of thread whining for a change?
This is the philosophy that NeoGAF tried to follow by banning all discussion of this bullshit but people kept on stinking up the Rab/EG thread with it so they started this thread. After 172 pages of the same unproven or proven false bullshit there is nothing left but the hate that has driven this nonsense from the start. When the hate stops, the thread stops, to claim that we are somehow fueling this by laughing at the latest inanity from prominent GGers is ridiculous.
I and many others are unpersuaded by your arguments Blue Jihad that is all, deal.
Lalalandia
Member
http://jonstonechannel2.tumblr.com/post/99246356388/why-bother-with-gamergate
A blog dealing with why there is no 'debate' to be had with the GG hate mob and why engagement is often futile.
A blog dealing with why there is no 'debate' to be had with the GG hate mob and why engagement is often futile.
Necromanti
Member
I agree that conflicts of interest can be an issue and should be addressed through an honest disclaimer when necessary, but wasn't the notion that someone had received preferential treatment from a member of the games media they were sleeping with, debunked? There are a lot of discussions to be had about problems in the games industry (like coercion of journalists by publishers in the past), but the foundation that sparked this whole debate seemed like a poor piece of evidence to generate this new movement to begin with. Maybe it's because the movement isn't exactly unified, but the issue of journalistic ethics didn't seem like a major focus to as serious degree, at least.
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