Genuine questions: What has GamerGate done and what is it doing now to achieve that? And what does "fair and balanced" mean here?
#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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Genuine questions: What has GamerGate done and what is it doing now to achieve that? And what does "fair and balanced" mean here?
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
According to GG's definition of "fair and balanced"? Fuck no! Press releases already exist, you can read those if you want. I prefer to have individuals' opinions, even if it means that *gulp* I might disagree with them sometimes.
Vavra is being an ass, but I don't think sites like RPS would refuse to cover the game on those grounds.
Read the thread dude.
That doesn't bother me one bit. Now if he was clubbing baby seals, then I might consider withdrawing my pledge.
Yes. I want previews and reviews that describe and evaluate games based on their own merits.
But I also want video games criticism with an attitude and a clear position. I want to read people who analyze the political and ideological content of video games. I want feminist critics, Marxist critics, conservative critics, and so on. Just like we have in all other forms of media and art.
treemasterx
Banned
The Belief of being fare within journalism, Giving a view on both sides of a situation(Ex: Woman in Video Games: a problem that need fixing, but not in the way some people want it.)
Lalalandia
Member
That's a vague mission statement at best not an example of a positive outcome from GG.
The only visible outcomes of the GG campaign are forcing critical female voices out and trying to get advertisers to shun outlets that run articles which question the status quo.
So far their only concrete actions have been to remove, or attempt to remove, prominent female voices from the games industry, or those who support them.
Give me one other concrete action and I'll take that and roll with it.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Serious questions: how old are you? Do you have any idea how journalism work? Have you ever read a newspaper, and/or editorial pieces (outside of the gaming circle)?
And bonus question: what is the way "some people want to fix the woman in videogames problem"?
Oh and while we're at it: why do you always capitalize Video Games?
I want everything quantified and reduced to numeric value. I want games analysis stripped of context and assessed based on mechanics alone. Eradicate subjectivity, kill criticism, give me PURE OBJECTIVE ASSESSMENTS
More_Badass
Member
Not sure what point you're trying to make
Damaging sites and the other actions and behaviors of GG only hurts the medium and the perception of the medium
I want honest coverage uninfluenced by publisher input. That's a worthwhile goal. GamerGate isn't trying to pursue those goals.
I believe there are many important aspects to discuss - the role of games media, the influence of publishers on sites and youtube channels, etc. - but this GamerGate movement isn't doing that, but instead attacking and harassing and dismissing actual concerns
https://storify.com/BradGrenz/gamergate-versus-real-anti-consumer-actions
It's for the greater good of video games!
tonysidaway
Member
AND ABOVE ALL WE WANT A NUMBER BETWEEN 90 AND 100! NONE OF THESE SUBJECTIVE NUMBERS BETWEEN 0 AND 89!
More_Badass
Member
Uncharted 3 is 8/10
say something concrete please, propaganda-like slogans and vagueness will not get you anywhere.
They're literally the only things fuelling Gamergate at this point.
Along with persecution complexes I think it's really about time we start looking into this as a form of alternative energy.
That tends to happen when it comes to thought-provoking articles that garner a lot of attention. If that many people are talking about it, maybe the more constructive reaction would be to take some time for some introspection. Thinking and talking about the ways in which gamer culture is problematic is something that can only serve to improve this entertainment medium we all enjoy.
I think Rock Paper Shotgun, the site GamerGate is most trying to shut down after GamaSutra, literally has the most articles on that game. I could not have invented a more Kafkaesque example for GamerGate to rally behind.
I'm now going to write your advertisers for your site to complain about your agenda-filled bile to make sure that I, The Gamer, won't have to endure another attack on my personality, which is already oppressed and marginalized enough as it is, while I make Twitter sock puppet accounts to provide devils advocate arguments that contain several ad hominem remarks on your sexual life.
How dare you! You, the Antichrist of videogames!
But how many of those articles were posted after GamerGate started? Until today, NONE /tinfoil
treemasterx
Banned
Q1) 18 years old
Q2) Yes my roommate is studying journalism and I talk to him about the state of the Industry right now
Q3) Yes, I read the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal every day, With switching between MSNBC, FOX News, and CBS.So yes, read other sources and develop my own opinion from my sources.
Bonus) What I mean is that there are people who want to make "Cool" Female Characters, but people like Anita Sarkisian want a character to fit into all their check boxes. Woman, Check. No boobs, check. Black, check. Strong, check.
Instead of filling all these checkboxes, just make an interesting or "Cool" Female Character. Someone who has a personality and someone who we care about.
treemasterx
Banned
Sure, Just ask me a strong question.
EDIT: Complimenting someone for a good joke is propaganda. Can no one laugh on this thread?
Can you point me to where Anita said those boxes needed to be checked? Was it the "Tales from My Ass" episode?
More_Badass
Member
Sure
How is attacking sites, harassing individuals both on social media and in their personal life, and dismissing discussions about journalistic ethics and publisher influence in games media in favor of sites "telling gamers to fuck themselves", trying to help the greater good of Video Games?
A strong female character that is more than a superficial embodiment of a woman is also probably going to be a character with personality and we will also care about.
I would point you to:
http://www.zenofdesign.com/my-artistic-freedom-is-fine-thank-you/
http://www.zenofdesign.com/417/
http://www.zenofdesign.com/i-watch-anita-sarkeesian-so-you-dont-have-to-but-you-should/
Do you think Will Wright needs protecting? Sid Meier? David Jaffe? Raph Koster? No. They need input. And they should have the freedom to take input from wherever the hell they want. If we don’t get input, we make the same derivative crap over and over again. Do you think you’re qualified where to tell these people where they should seek this input?
Nobody is trying to silence me. If they tried, they’d likely fail. I have 20 years experience, confidence in my craft, a large multinational company at my back, and about 20 years experience writing and speaking about game design. But there are a lot of people who are trying to silence critics, academics and journalists with more progressive (“SJW”views on games, because they aren’t ‘real’ gamers, or because what they want would ‘ruin’ games. Meanwhile, increases in raw hardware power means that awesome boob physics is more realistic and impressive than ever before.
More diverse voices will lead to better, more diverse and more interesting games. And at the end of the day, isn’t that all any of us really cares about?
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Please refer me to that video or article where she said that, because that's the first time I hear that. Are you sure you're not attacking something that isn't even there in the first place?
"my college roommate skimmed through the videos, i think i know what i'm talking about"
MHWilliams
Member
That latter half is mad depressing.
Didn't happen. You're literally starting from a flawed premise. Here's the timeline for anything remotely related to that.
As I said there:
A personal Tumblr, a site for developers, a site for general tech, BuzzFeed, and Vice. Of the gaming websites, Kotaku's was merely a link to Alexander's article and Destructoid's was completely different in tone.
So where are all these sites touting gamer is dead?
Even Sarkeesian doesn't say that.
Again, you start from a faulty premise: "These things sound true. I don't like these things. I should act." Instead of finding out if the things are actually true.
axisofweevils
Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
New article from The Verge. Guess Polygon will go even further up the blocklist now.
http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/8/6919179/stop-supporting-gamergate
http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/8/6919179/stop-supporting-gamergate
Deliberately provocative article intended to make sure this nonsense goes on for as long as possible.
And the Gaters will be dumb enough to fall for it.
As time goes on and I look more and more at this GamerGate stuff, I'm just losing my patience and understanding for GGers. I read that article and normally I would say it's kind of aggressive for my tastes but I just don't care anymore. GGers are being willfully ignorant so that they can keep this hate machine running.
There is absolutely nothing good coming out of GG. One really sad thing about this is that real discussion of journalistic concerns that we used to have here on NeoGAF is gone (the Rab Florence thread, which had some off base accusations but also real discussion and concerns addressed regularly by people like Jason Schreier). Now we have this GG garbage where people claim it's about ethics and then a few questions later go on some rant about Anita or something else related to feminism.
It's like they are saying it's unethical simply to believe in social justice.
I look at the Reddit link from earlier where GGers congregate and they're being ridiculous there, even complaining about Anita's XOXO Festival talk (which has nothing to do with journalism and ethics so why are they even talking about that?). It is so completely obvious what GG is really about, I just can't believe anyone is supporting it thinking it's something else unless they're purposely putting their heads in the sand.
I tried to believe there is a part of GG that really cares about ethics and I have looked for it but even here on NeoGAF all of them eventually show their true colours.
Everything about GG and everyone who, after all this, still fights for GG, whether they do so out of (willful) ignorance or because they're terrible people, I have lost all respect for. So with that I'll have to excuse myself from this lest I lose faith in gamers as a whole.
There is absolutely nothing good coming out of GG. One really sad thing about this is that real discussion of journalistic concerns that we used to have here on NeoGAF is gone (the Rab Florence thread, which had some off base accusations but also real discussion and concerns addressed regularly by people like Jason Schreier). Now we have this GG garbage where people claim it's about ethics and then a few questions later go on some rant about Anita or something else related to feminism.
It's like they are saying it's unethical simply to believe in social justice.
I look at the Reddit link from earlier where GGers congregate and they're being ridiculous there, even complaining about Anita's XOXO Festival talk (which has nothing to do with journalism and ethics so why are they even talking about that?). It is so completely obvious what GG is really about, I just can't believe anyone is supporting it thinking it's something else unless they're purposely putting their heads in the sand.
I tried to believe there is a part of GG that really cares about ethics and I have looked for it but even here on NeoGAF all of them eventually show their true colours.
Everything about GG and everyone who, after all this, still fights for GG, whether they do so out of (willful) ignorance or because they're terrible people, I have lost all respect for. So with that I'll have to excuse myself from this lest I lose faith in gamers as a whole.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Really? That's a shame. I stopped watching South Park over a decade ago, but I still vaguely remember the "it's okay to be gay" episode. But I guess that wasn't edgy enough for today...
The goat thing is out of context. It's not about "disagreeing with an actor", it's about satirizing his insane anti-Obama CT fearmongering.
More_Badass
Member
@frequencey - I totally understand
When I first heard of GamerGate, it sounded good. A discussion on the role of games media, the influence of publishers, and other important issues that should be discussed and debated.
And maybe there were good motives and intentions at the start, but not anymore. This movement isn't a discussion. It isn't looking to debate. It's just attacking and harassing and spewing its rhetoric while dismissing any attempts at reason and logic
When I first heard of GamerGate, it sounded good. A discussion on the role of games media, the influence of publishers, and other important issues that should be discussed and debated.
And maybe there were good motives and intentions at the start, but not anymore. This movement isn't a discussion. It isn't looking to debate. It's just attacking and harassing and spewing its rhetoric while dismissing any attempts at reason and logic
The tragicomical thing about this is that whatever has been written in regards to the stereotype of the gamer has been confirmed again and again and again through the actions of the Gamergate people.
"let us prove that we're not misogynists by saying and doing misogynistic things"
or
"some gamers are privileged misogynistic people insecure about their hobby"
"no we're not!" *harasses and threatens women for stating their opinion on video games*
It's like the video game version of Lewis' Law which states that "Comments on any article about feminism justify feminism"
"let us prove that we're not misogynists by saying and doing misogynistic things"
or
"some gamers are privileged misogynistic people insecure about their hobby"
"no we're not!" *harasses and threatens women for stating their opinion on video games*
It's like the video game version of Lewis' Law which states that "Comments on any article about feminism justify feminism"
Steve Youngblood
Member
When I first heard about #GamerGate it was in the context of "wait, hold on a second: why is Jayne from FireFly commenting on this Zoe Quinn story?" So from the start it never struck me as anything even remotely legitimate. And even then, I couldn't believe that the story was still getting traction. And here we are... what, 2 months later? And this is still a thing? Unbelievable.
robovanburen
Member
I look at it as Verge saying, "Hey, we don't need GGers' business. We'll appeal to everyone else instead." It's less risky of a move for them than other sites because they're not a game-specific outlet.
Yes, it's hard to remember sometimes that GamerGate literally started because Adam Baldwin posted a disgusting, libelous video about Zoe Quinn's sex life, and debunked claims that she slept with games journalists to get coverage of her game.
You know, her game that she has never sold, and only ever given away.
And that she got donations for, which were sent along to charities.
VibratingDonkey
Member
The stuff with Sarkeesian is so boring and trite. She says things, no one has to listen, much less change their games. It's up to developers (or the publishers funding them) to create whatever they want. In many cases developers appreciate feedback and input because it helps them grow, consider things they didn't before and ultimately make better games. They're free to choose which feedback to consider, how to interpret it, what to take from it. Like, for instance; "make an interesting or "Cool" Female Character. Someone who has a personality and someone who we care about."
The idea of wanting to silence criticism/feedback because it's effectively censorship or stifling creative freedom, is inconceivably stupid. Not saying this is necessarily the track treemaster is on, just saying.
Because some people misrepresented an article about the definition of "gamer" growing beyond its stereotypical roots due to its inflammatory tone, and blew up the scale of these "gamerhating" articles, eventually leading to ggate wanting to force the writer to shut up by financially attacking the publishing site. And this in turn leading to further crusades to do the same to other sites publishing things ggate doesn't approve of. Like RPS, which occasionally writes about social justice things, I guess. Because apparently being in favor of social justice is an ethical breach which justifies the "dismantling" of a site.
Etc. and such. There's no shortage of bad shit that has been achieved under the ggate banner. What there is a shortage of however, is ggate accomplishments in the areas of journalistic integrity, ethics, corruption, inclusiveness, artistic freedom, anti-censorship and anti-harassment. I.e. basically everything ggate has ever claimed to be about. All the accusations of corruption have been proven false and/or nonsense. Meanwhile ggate is largely ignoring actual ethical concerns. And the journalist ggate has chosen to band behind is this guy. This guy. I mention above how ggate is pro-actively trying to censor sites and shut up those who say things ggate disapproves of.
Like, this is a joke. And it's sad that otherwise sensible people are swept up by it. Gamergate is actively harmful, toxic bullshit.
The idea of wanting to silence criticism/feedback because it's effectively censorship or stifling creative freedom, is inconceivably stupid. Not saying this is necessarily the track treemaster is on, just saying.
Because Jenn Frank said harassment is bad and got hounded out of the industry after someone decided to dig into her background to find something to accuse her of, which of course turned out to be false, like every single other instance of supposed impropriety dug up by ggate to justify further dogpiling on people they want to shut up.
Because some people misrepresented an article about the definition of "gamer" growing beyond its stereotypical roots due to its inflammatory tone, and blew up the scale of these "gamerhating" articles, eventually leading to ggate wanting to force the writer to shut up by financially attacking the publishing site. And this in turn leading to further crusades to do the same to other sites publishing things ggate doesn't approve of. Like RPS, which occasionally writes about social justice things, I guess. Because apparently being in favor of social justice is an ethical breach which justifies the "dismantling" of a site.
Etc. and such. There's no shortage of bad shit that has been achieved under the ggate banner. What there is a shortage of however, is ggate accomplishments in the areas of journalistic integrity, ethics, corruption, inclusiveness, artistic freedom, anti-censorship and anti-harassment. I.e. basically everything ggate has ever claimed to be about. All the accusations of corruption have been proven false and/or nonsense. Meanwhile ggate is largely ignoring actual ethical concerns. And the journalist ggate has chosen to band behind is this guy. This guy. I mention above how ggate is pro-actively trying to censor sites and shut up those who say things ggate disapproves of.
Like, this is a joke. And it's sad that otherwise sensible people are swept up by it. Gamergate is actively harmful, toxic bullshit.
That Thunderclap thing is a perfect example of how warped the movement itself is. We always hear these cries of "We're not woman haters, it's just a small percent!" Yet nearly every massively public event like that has links to people like Milo or Internet Aristocrat, or links to how they should be attacking Digra. When one of their videos goes viral it'll hit say, reddit's videos sub (which is a default sub) and have thousands of posts and upvotes for things like "Zoe Quinn slept for reviews" that the movement claims to have moved beyond. There is massive widespread belief that these evil feminists have colluded with every major website on the planet to silence Gamergate. There's no self reflection that maybe all of these sites are telling your movement to fuck off because they all arrived at the same conclusion that it is dumb, it has to be a conspiracy. Prominent leaders in the movement suggest people like Sarkeesian are skillful enough criminals to not only defraud the public, but the IRS and FBI. Things like "Kingdom Come Deliverance has been blacklisted" are taken as gospel, ignoring that the reality is that most game websites have shitty PC coverage in general, and aren't going to cover the average alpha that has barely any content.
The assholes aren't the fringe. There's some normal people, sure, but the loudest and most popular voices are very often doing the same sort of thing GGers try to dismiss as just being a few people, and being viewed, retweeted, upvoted and referenced on massive scales.
The assholes aren't the fringe. There's some normal people, sure, but the loudest and most popular voices are very often doing the same sort of thing GGers try to dismiss as just being a few people, and being viewed, retweeted, upvoted and referenced on massive scales.
Actually, some people do listen. Neil Druckmann from Naughty Dog was "informed" by Sarkeesian when he wrote The Last of Us. We also see Manveer Heir, lead designer of Mass Effect 3, publicly talk about how Sarkeesian is on the money and how developers are responsible. Same with one of the developers of Bioshock 2. And those are just the outspoken ones - imagine the ones who are listening and learning without announcing it!
Funny sidenote on that: There was this guy a couple of weeks ago here on Neogaf who couldn't possibly reconcile that one of his favorite games and developers (Neil Druckmann with TLOU) had learned something from the arch-nemesis Sarkeesian who is out to destroy video games, so he had to make these really illogical leaps to rationalize how those two contradictory things could make sense and his world would remain right. It was interesting in a weird way to read.
I think in general gaming culture is harmful and toxic. Gamergate is nothing new and this shit has been going on for such a long time and so many years now.
Off the top of my head:
- Jade Raymond and that terrible comic and every thread about her
- Penny Arcade and that awful Dickwolves debacle and the defense of it
- Penny Arcade and their transphobic jokes last year
- Online behavior towards women and people of color in video
- Attack on Jennifer Hepler at Bioware
- Brenda Braithwaite getting attacked for criticizing booth babes
- the IGDA party at GDC last year
- Anita Sarkeesian
- Zoe Quinn
- Leigh Alexander
- Carolyn Petit at Gamespot who dared to criticize GTA5 for its portrayal women and ONLY scoring it a 9
- The assumption that girls and women don't play video games. If they do, they are fake gamer girls. It's constantly in question
- The almost non-existence of female Youtube personalities
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I think I remember that. Was that the one who said that Neil Druckmann was "too smart" to be influenced by Anita's videos, and therefore, he must have somehow lied or exaggerated her influence on his writing? That was certainly a riot.
Oh man. The funny thing is that I didn't have a problem with the original comic. I didn't think it trivialized rape, but rather, it satirized bad game design. But obviously I could see why some people would have a problem with it, and so when PA started defending it in the most crass ways, with the t-shirts and everything, it was just... urgh, what a bunch of fuckwits.
LiegeWaffle
Member
I am confused. He suggests that Polygon should stand up to GamerGate? I am not sure what they are supposed to do, they are already on the list of evil SJWs, it is not like anyone from the people who'd need to listen to them would.
Seriously this:
That is one of the things that worry me the most about the toxicity of gamer culture. Like some dude sitting in his bathrobe spending literally hours of Youtube video to talk about how Sarkeesian is wrong and destroying video games. How do you do that? How can you not have enough self-awareness and perspective to know that you're literally spending *hours* on a misguided monologue? It's just obsessive to the point of creepiness.
IGN, Gamespot, Joystiq, GiantBomb, etc. These sites have major pull and exposure, yet do *nothing* (as far as I'm aware). To reiterate why it is important for those sites to speak up:
When you decline to create or to curate a culture in your spaces, you’re responsible for what spawns in the vacuum. That’s what’s been happening to games.
did you even read the entire thing before responding? he addresses exactyl what you're asking
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
But someone has to save video games from the relentless attacks of the evil SJWs! We should be lucky there's this hero out there willing to invest so many hours of his time to fight them off on youtube.
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