#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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VibratingDonkey said:
You wait for the site to get access to the game through other means. Review may be published after the game's out, which shouldn't be a problem for you personally, but is for the site because timeliness matters in terms of page views. I can understand why sites go to these events, but feel they shouldn't. Ultimately I guess this. Publishers can do this because the market enables them, i.e. stop pre-ordering. The least I ask of games media though is to make clear the terms/conditions under which the game was reviewed. Some sites failed to do this with BF4.

Haggar is sexier than Zangief.

If you think about it, no one really needs a day one review. If you read reviews as purchasing advice, well that means you were already on the fence about the game, and wanted to think it over before purchasing, so waiting until after day one to get a bigger number of opinions is in your best interest. If you read reviews as criticism and opinion, you really shouldn't have any time sensitive concerns to start out with.
 
Yeah. That would make me really angry.

There's a big difference between attraction and objectification. :S

Exactly. It cheapens the effect.

So what happens when we subvert it? Take Alyx Vance (from Half Life) who happens to have this particular mod and your impression of her changes instantly from a genuinely likeable character into a sex object. And, to put it in context for straight males, when Joel Schumacher (who is gay) put nipples on the Batman costume the fans went ballistic. If you want to see the female perspective of that, you have to picture Batman in a thong.

Because that's what women see in gaming.
 
So Re/Code just did it's own look at GamerGate and how Intel entered the picture. Standard overview, much like Vox.

I'm also interested in Erik Kain's YouTube talk with Greg Tito, editor-in-chief of The Escapist, Janelle Bonanno, editor-in-chief of GameFront, and TotalBiscuit on the topic, even if I don't completely agree with certain topics. It's odd to read the comments and see how many disagree with Tito's rather common sense points.

A refreshingly objective discussion on the topic, thanks for linking.
 
Yeah... :C
It doesn't seem like she even did anything that would remotely warrant this. Calling out harassment shouldn't be greeted with more harassment. That's so...

so stupid.

A lot of harassment & "revenge" tactics work similarly. Obviously we've seen it with some of GG's targets but I also know similar tactics get used to dismiss rape victims and what not irl.
 
The issue is ownership of gaming. Plain and simple.

Gaming has been "owned" by the stereotypical gamer since its inception, and generally being socially isolated, it was one of the few things they did own. In the past decade that ownership had started to be worn with pride. But the industry has been gradually shifting away from them recently, and more scrutiny is being placed on it for inclusiveness. This is all a reaction to claw back that ownership.

Media toeing the line is all part of ownership.

I have been gaming for like 20 years now. I have never felt like i was owed anything or i own this industry. I dont care who plays games or what types of games they play or prefer. I am mostly a Halo player. I am just not good at DOTA2 or cannot get into it. But i appreciate that its there and i am glad that people play it and it has an audience. I think games are diverse in their genres and should be more inclusive towards character writing. I am all for better written characters of all types. It doesnt bother me.

However my friend seems to think that we are missing out on ground breaking new gameplay mechanics. I dont always see how the narrative that is more inclusive will lead to something ground breaking in terms of mechanics. Maybe i am too close minded to see it.

If someone can explain to me what he means?

As a side note. Nobody is going to take away what most games today already offer in terms of mechanics. Its just that characters in games will be better represented.

As far as game journalists are concerned id like to see more diversity among them as well. That be great to see them practice what they preach.
 
Elijah Wood made a short comment about gamergate on an interview for playboy about his production company new movie "Open Window".

Prior to the privacy of these photos being hacked, which is heinous, there was this whole explosion online with GamerGate as well, where you have these feminist women who have a real genuine perspective and what should've just been discourse turned into a mire of hatred and genuine death threats. It moves beyond the Internet space and has real consequences in people's lives. I think if anything can be gleaned from these recent events, maybe it's getting to where we can actually have a real fucking dialogue about what it is that we do online and the genuine consequences that those things can have.

http://www.playboy.com/articles/eli...itle=Elijah-Wood-Opens-Up-About-Sasha-Grey-LO
 
I'm also interested in Erik Kain's YouTube talk with Greg Tito, editor-in-chief of The Escapist, Janelle Bonanno, editor-in-chief of GameFront, and TotalBiscuit on the topic, even if I don't completely agree with certain topics. It's odd to read the comments and see how many disagree with Tito's rather common sense points.

I want to like what they have to say...

But they don't bother talking about the death threats and harassment that is having real life consequences on people in the real world. Gamers aren't little angels. I know this, because I am a gamer. We form mobs all the time and attack people ruthlessly. We're not always "cool" people. We're often so passionate that we feel threatened and persecuted by the stupidest, most trivial things. That's not cool.

Also Reddit has a lot of warnings about people creating posts to garner harassment campaigns. They usually have a big warning about not linking to twitter because of stuff like this. If gamers want to attack a company...fine. But don't go after individuals who make games that you didn't want to buy anyways.

There's just no way I could be on the side that pretends that harassment campaigns aren't real.

Edit: That goes for both sides as well. I can't stand knowing Boogie, Jontron and TB were targeted. This is crazy.
 
I want to like what they have to say...

But they don't bother talking about the death threats and harassment that is having real life consequences on people in the real world. Gamers aren't little angels. I know this, because I am a gamer. We form mobs all the time and attack people ruthlessly. We're not always "cool" people. We're often so passionate that we feel threatened and persecuted by the stupidest, most trivial things. That's not cool.

Also Reddit has a lot of warnings about people creating posts to garner harassment campaigns. They usually have a big warning about not linking to twitter because of stuff like this. If gamers want to attack a company...fine. But don't go after individuals who make games that you didn't want to buy anyways.

There's just no way I could be on the side that pretends that harassment campaigns aren't real.

Yeah, there's a bit of jumping around that ideas, but that's partially because TB is the most outspoken and as he noted he's completely consumer-first.

I don't completely agree with the overall tone and it almost made me want to jump on the next one, but it's a start and Tito had some good points.
 
I don't get TB's hooligan point. Some of our football clubs here in the Netherlands have far stronger regulation than others precisely because the "fans of that club" are much more prone to harassment and aggression.

That's the whole issue with #GG, it isn't just a football club with a few hooligans. It's one of the clubs that clearly has a persistent hooligan problem not seen in similar "clubs". (Say: gaf's pre-GG media discussion thread.)
 
I don't get TB's hooligan point. Some of our football clubs here in the Netherlands have far stronger regulation than others precisely because the "fans of that club" are much more prone to harassment and aggression.

That's the whole issue with #GG, it isn't just a football club with a few hooligans. It's one of the clubs that clearly has a persistent hooligan problem not seen in similar "clubs". (Say: gaf's pre-GG media discussion thread.)

Exactly. That goes with anything. If you're a devote Christian, than the crazy ones are your responsibility. They absolutely do reflect on the whole group. Those "minority" crazy people are the direct result of the values, ideals and culture that brought you into that group. Any place where you bring your passion is going to have crazies that you may or may not condone. The only reason anyone refuses to fix their own is because they enjoy seeing the other side suffer too much to actively stop the hostility. Instead they defend the hostility which makes it so so so much worse. :S

With any list of benevolent ideals comes a massive shadow of projected hatred. It is undeniable. This is the culture we created for ourselves.

I don't really like TB's stuff much, but I think that's because I believe "the consumer doesn't know what they want." so they should shut up and let the creators', who know what they're doing, explore. (That's probably because I'm a Zelda fan though...)
 
What I don't get about the sense of ownership or sense of social isolation the stereotypical gamer feels is that games were never considered as geeky or nerdy as tabletop role playing or comics books after the late '70s or early '80s. I grew up during the NES era, and I remember everyone I knew playing games back then, whether consoles or arcades.

There was a stereotype of comic book readers or D&Ders being males who lived in the basement, but video games? Everyone likes video games. The only time I heard the supposed gamer stereotype come up (until somewhat recently) was among other gamers on the internet. Am I the only one? Or were kids in school looked down on for gaming after the SNES/Genesis generation?

When we were kids everyone played video games, yes, but until the turn of the millennium most people simply stopped playing games or kept quiet about it when they entered high school. Teens and adults who played games were the outsiders, with a "childish" hobby.

The PS1 and PS2 had a hand in changing that, with more mature and realistic games, so it became more acceptable to be an older gamer.
 
I don't really like TB's stuff much, but I think that's because I believe "the consumer doesn't know what they want." so they should shut up and the let creators' who know what they're doing explore. (That's probably because I'm a Zelda fan though...)

I think the issue is that a lot of these guys conflate how you should treat creative content & other consumer issues like drm/on disc-dlc.

"the consumer is king" quite often used as a weird ass "majority rule" argument in the #GG discussion.
 
http://www.pcgamer.com/how-gamecubewii-emulator-dolphin-got-a-turbocharge/

1) PC Gamer writes a cool article about the Dolphin emulator

2) In the article, it's clear the developer who improved Dolphin happens to be a woman

3) They quote her saying it's intimidating to get into development because she's so outnumbered, but she did it anyway

Note: the article does not use the word "woman" once.


Comment:
This is great n all but I can't help but feel like you're purposefully writing this article because it was an achievement of a woman, very well done though.

Reply:
If this were RPS, I would agree, but this just seems like Fiora's origin story which is cool. It's great work on its own and I'd be enthused about it but I was never a fan of the GC/Wii stuff.


Another comment:
If it was about performance increases, they would've spoken about the project in general... But nope, this is 100% about the fact a *woman* did it.

Relevance to GamerGate: They've so thoroughly convinced a bunch of insecure men that Rock Paper Shotgun is some vile hellhole of feminist propaganda that those insecure men get upset about any article that happens to be about a woman, and therefore state as automatically accepted truth that especially if such an article was published on RPS, it *must* be because she's a woman.
 
http://www.pcgamer.com/how-gamecubewii-emulator-dolphin-got-a-turbocharge/

1) PC Gamer writes a cool article about the Dolphin emulator

2) In the article, it's clear the developer who improved Dolphin happens to be a woman

3) They quote her saying it's intimidating to get into development because she's so outnumbered, but she did it anyway

Note: the article does not use the word "woman" once.


Comment:

Reply:


Another comment:

Relevance to GamerGate: They've so thoroughly convinced a bunch of insecure men that Rock Paper Shotgun is some vile hellhole of feminist propaganda that those insecure men get upset about any article that happens to be about a woman, and therefore state as automatically accepted truth that especially if such an article was published on RPS, it *must* be because she's a woman.

That's pretty normal when it comes to anything. Getting told I got "____" only because I'm black/a girl, is pretty harsh, but a very common part of my life. *shrugs* People inherently feel as though women and minorities suck at everything. So the only reason we get anywhere is because people pity or feel sorry for us and just hand us things.

No. That is not the case. It is actually the complete opposite. This is why the discussion goes no where every time. Because I'm the entitled one. <____>

I will say, I do check my privilege quite often. :P

I think the issue is that a lot of these guys conflate how you should treat creative content & other consumer issues like drm/on disc-dlc.

"the consumer is king" quite often used as a weird ass "majority rule" argument in the #GG discussion.

Which is why anyone who asks for better female representation isn't a true gamer/"consumer." :C
 
That's pretty normal when it comes to anything. Getting told I got ____ because I'm black/a girl, is pretty harsh, but a very common part of my life. *shrugs* People inherently feel as though women and minorities suck at everything. So the only reason we get anywhere is because people pity or feel sorry for us and just give us things.

No. That is not the case. It is actually the complete opposite. <____>

I definitely feel like the most talented engineers I work with are women.

Sadly, I think it's because of societal ingrained white/Asian male privelege in tech that the women who do make it through institutional biases did so by being ridiculously talented, far moreso than their male counterparts.
 
Which is why anyone who asks for better female representation isn't a true gamer/"consumer." :C

Yeah that's what honestly baffles me about a large chunk of the whole SJW-MEDIA!11!!-argument.

It's quite insidious that they're branding themselves as the only relevant consumer of gaming & that any press with "SJ" opinions is doing them a disservice, entirely ignoring the fact that there's actually quite a substantial audience for that type of coverage.

It's a giant "mememe" where any dissenting voice is seen as "part of the conspiracy" & never treated as a different type of consumer.
 
I definitely feel like the most talented engineers I work with are women.

Sadly, I think it's because of societal ingrained white/Asian male privelege in tech that the women who do make it through institutional biases did so by being ridiculously talented, far moreso than their male counterparts.

Yeah. Basically if a minority/woman is extremely good compared to another extremely good "normal" candidate, the minority/woman will always be chosen. However, if both candidates are average, then the women and minorities are always rejected based off of unconscious biases. These studies are consistent year after year. These biases are unconscious, instinctual and based off of societal perceptions. We can't change it unless everyone suddenly stops thinking women/minorities are bad at "______."

Yeah that's what honestly baffles me about a large chunk of the whole SJW-MEDIA!11!!-argument.

It's quite insidious that they're branding themselves as the only relevant consumer of gaming & that any press with "SJ" opinions is doing them a disservice, entirely ignoring the fact that there's actually quite a substantial audience for that type of coverage.

It's a giant "mememe" where any dissenting voice is seen as "part of the conspiracy" & never treated as a different type of consumer.

Realistically, most hardcore female gamers don't care about female protagonists. (I don't really care...) and most minorities don't care about minority protagonists. (Once again, I don't really care) We just play the games. However, men who are not minorities, care quite a bit. They need relatability and they need to feel masculine while gaming. They don't relate well to women, and quite honestly, a lot of people are still pretty racist or apathetic towards other races. So if minorities and women don't care, while the main demographic does care...then why wouldn't you always have a white male protagonist? If you do add a girl in, then there's good chance it will add zero profitability.

I think this will change though. Just naturally from companies who have strong flexibility and creative freedom. Companies that have limitless budgets for whatever. Nintendo, Naughty Dog and Valve have loving audiences. It doesn't matter if Nintendo makes a game about a turd nugget, I would buy it, because I trust them that much. These companies have so much loyalty that they can introduce more diverse representations without a risk...because players always know that these companies are consistently awesome.

To make my stance clear: I don't care about more protagonist representation...but I care about seeing less stereotypes and more nuanced, quality writing because I think that would be amazing. Also I think there are about 68 million hardcore female gamers to cater to. That's quite the number. Edit Edit: It amazes me how many interesting female characters Hyrule Warriors has. They're all very distinct and...female.
 
So Re/Code just did it's own look at GamerGate and how Intel entered the picture. Standard overview, much like Vox.

I'm also interested in Erik Kain's YouTube talk with Greg Tito, editor-in-chief of The Escapist, Janelle Bonanno, editor-in-chief of GameFront, and TotalBiscuit on the topic, even if I don't completely agree with certain topics. It's odd to read the comments and see how many disagree with Tito's rather common sense points.

Wow at the level of ignorance about how women are targeted by the movement and how people are harassed and how the origin colors the movement.

And wow at Janelle's complete fumbling and changing the subject when asked about the misogyny in the movement. It was like listening to some politician twisting the question to provide a vague non-answer.

And wow at having 3 white guys on Gamergate to discuss something they are completely oblivious and inexperienced to as non-exposed white men.

And wow @ Erik Kain for asking questions like "Why aren't media discussing Zoe Quinn?" It's like he completely doesn't get the fundamental intuitive fact that whatever Quinn has done and who's she had sex has done is fucking irrelevant - every adult should get why that isn't something that needs coverage.
 
Realistically, most hardcore female gamers don't care about female protagonists. (I don't really care...) and most minorities don't care about minority protagonists. We just play the games. However, men who are not minorities, care quite a bit. They need relatability and they need to feel masculine while gaming. They don't relate well to women, and quite honestly, a lot of people are still racist. So if minorities and women don't care, while the main demographic does care...then why wouldn't you always have a white male protagonist? If you do add a girl in, then there's good chance it will add zero profitability.

I think this will change though. Just naturally from companies who have visions. Nintendo and Naughty Dog and Valve have loving audiences. It doesn't matter if Nintendo makes a game about a turd nugget, I would buy it. These companies have so much loyalty that they can introduce more diverse representations without a risk...because players always know that these companies are consistently awesome.

I'm not just talking about protagonists mind you. Heck most of Anita's tropes are just about weird stereotypes in background/secondary characters, for example.

I can't speak for anyone outside of my direct friends, but in general some of the biggest complaints are about "invisbility/erasure" and outright only being allowed as an extremely negative stereotype.
Not getting a protagonist due to marketing is one thing, but in a lot of cases entire identities get erased or are the butt of a joke/blatant bigotry. (this is very extreme when it comes to e.g. trans portrayal in almost any media, they're either a joke or a victim.)

If a game's filled with sexist or racist stereotypes cause it caters to a demographic that "likes that" that's quite a different story than the "white male protagonist for white male audience"-trope.
Rather than saying "this game isn't for minorities, that's why the protagonists white" it becomes "this game isn't for minorities, so you're not allowed to care if we portray them badly."
 
I'm not just talking about protagonists mind you. Heck most of Anita's tropes are just about weird stereotypes in background/secondary characters, for example.

I can't speak for anyone outside of my direct friends, but in general some of the biggest complaints are about "invisbility/erasure" and outright only being allowed as an extremely negative stereotype.
Not getting a protagonist due to marketing is one thing, but in a lot of cases entire identities get erased or are the butt of a joke/blatant bigotry. (this is very extreme when it comes to e.g. trans portrayal in almost any media, they're either a joke or a victim.)

If a game's filled with sexist or racist stereotypes cause it caters to a demographic that "likes that" that's quite a different story than the "white male protagonist for white male audience"-trope.
Rather than saying "this game isn't for minorities, that's why the protagonists white" it becomes "this game isn't for minorities, so you're not allowed to care if we portray them badly."

Very fair point. Which is why I think social criticism is good and maybe even extremely necessary. But I'm not really into asking girls to be placed into every game just because. Most of these bad decisions you talk about are...the result of often unintentional stereotypes.

Stereotypes are easily digestible and understandable for people...which is why they are so prevalent. They honestly don't mean any harm. Even though they shape people's perceptions of others. :\
 
Very fair point. Which is why I think social criticism is good and maybe even extremely necessary. But I'm not really into asking girls to be placed into every game just because. Most of these bad decisions you talk about are...the result of often unintentional stereotypes.

Unintentional becomes intentional once awareness is raised. I assume this is one reason people are so obsessed with calling Anita a liar, because they'd rather her be wrong than accept they might've accidentally been kinda shitty.

I think the "asking girls to be placed in every game just because" thing is a bit of a strawman-ish statement though. If a game does not suggest or define gender (e.g. tetris) it doesn't insinuate things about gender and thus wouldn't really need "Females shoehorned in".
The issue with a lot of AA games, which these discussions are generally about, is that they're often trying to portray some sort of "realism" or "historical accuracy" & proceed to translate this to fairly lackluster or even damaging/negative portrayal of minorities.
 
Unintentional becomes intentional once awareness is raised. I assume this is one reason people are so obsessed with calling Anita a liar, because they'd rather her be wrong than accept they might've accidentally been kinda shitty.

I think the "asking girls to be placed in every game just because" thing is a bit of a strawman-ish statement though. If a game does not suggest or define gender (e.g. tetris) it doesn't insinuate things about gender and thus wouldn't really need "Females shoehorned in".
The issue with a lot of AA games, which these discussions are generally about, is that they're often trying to portray some sort of "realism" or "historical accuracy" & proceed to translate this to fairly lackluster or even damaging/negative portrayal of minorities.

Lol. Yeah...That's what's screwed up. But after all, this is about the consumer, what the consumer wants...and the perceptions of what the most common consumer believes. A healthy mind is one with a fair share of self-delusion. If you break someone's perception of reality...then you're going to be in for a ride. Lol.
 
Lol. Yeah...That's what's screwed up. But after all, this is about the consumer, what the consumer wants...and the perceptions of what the most common consumer believes. A healthy mind is one with a fair share of self-delusion. If you break someone's perception of reality...then you're going to be in for a ride. Lol.

That's purely a question of being in their bubble or not though. One big reason someone like Anita has it rough is because it's sooo easy for people to call her "the other" and pretend she's invading.

I think I only heard one person complain on the entire internet about ssb4 having so many new female characters for example, inclusivity usually isn't really treated as that bad once it happens. (another example is fighting games often having quite a diverse cast, they're considered extremely hardcore core games)

This is where some of #GG's weird opinions on inclusivity and "protecting artistic freedom"gets weird and muddy. I've seen many people convinced that advocating for diversity/avoiding stereotypes is somehow seen as "bullying"; but I don't think I've ever seen a backlash due to a game being too inclusive & not discriminatory enough when portraying people. (so they're against talking about inclusivity in gaming, but totally okay with actual inclusivity?)
 
That's purely a question of being in their bubble or not though. One big reason someone like Anita has it rough is because it's sooo easy for people to call her "the other" and pretend she's invading.

I think I only heard one person complain on the entire internet about ssb4 having so many new female characters for example, inclusivity usually isn't really treated as that bad once it happens. (another example is fighting games often having quite a diverse cast, they're considered extremely hardcore core games)

This is where some of #GG's weird opinions on inclusivity and "protecting artistic freedom"gets weird and muddy. I've seen many people convinced that advocating for diversity/avoiding stereotypes is somehow seen as "bullying"; but I don't think I've ever seen a backlash due to a game being too inclusive & not discriminatory enough when portraying people. (so they're against talking about inclusivity in gaming, but totally okay with actual inclusivity?)

I can't remember any backlash to games including female characters but I do remember complaints about CJ being the main character in GTA San Andreas and Bioware have received backlash for including gay characters as well as Gone Home being called Gone Homo.
 
I can't remember any backlash to games including female characters but I do remember complaints about CJ being the main character in GTA San Andreas and Bioware have received backlash for including gay characters as well as Gone Home being called Gone Homo.

I was mostly talking in non-protagonist content, but the backlash against homosexuality is just sad and disgusting.
 
Realistically, most hardcore female gamers don't care about female protagonists. (I don't really care...) and most minorities don't care about minority protagonists. (Once again, I don't really care) We just play the games. However, men who are not minorities, care quite a bit. They need relatability and they need to feel masculine while gaming. They don't relate well to women, and quite honestly, a lot of people are still pretty racist or apathetic towards other races. So if minorities and women don't care, while the main demographic does care...then why wouldn't you always have a white male protagonist? If you do add a girl in, then there's good chance it will add zero profitability.

I think this will change though. Just naturally from companies who have strong flexibility and creative freedom. Companies that have limitless budgets for whatever. Nintendo, Naughty Dog and Valve have loving audiences. It doesn't matter if Nintendo makes a game about a turd nugget, I would buy it, because I trust them that much. These companies have so much loyalty that they can introduce more diverse representations without a risk...because players always know that these companies are consistently awesome.

To make my stance clear: I don't care about more protagonist representation...but I care about seeing less stereotypes and more nuanced, quality writing because I think that would be amazing. Also I think there are about 68 million hardcore female gamers to cater to. That's quite the number. Edit Edit: It amazes me how many interesting female characters Hyrule Warriors has. They're all very distinct and...female.

The work done by Adrienne Shaw echoes your experiences of not caring about similar-looking protagonists in their video games. Here are some quotes of the interviews she's done for her academic work (this is her dissertation):

Troubling the common narrative that desire for representation comes from audiences, in my past work with female, LGBTQ and Arab gamers, interviewees are largely unconcerned with representation.

Interviewees viewed identifiers like gender, race and sexuality in abstraction as surface level connections. Kat described, &#8213;at first glance you&#8216;re going to automatically assume that someone your age, race, gender, is going to be someone you&#8216;ll connect with more because you assume you&#8216;ll have a common way you&#8216;ll see the world.&#8214;

Players who are members of a marginalized group accept, if begrudgingly, the lack of representation of that group in video games because they are not part of the adolescent, White, heterosexual, male gaming market. At times, this results in a sort of defeated apathy. Sasha described, representation is &#8213;not important, but it's nice! Even though it's not going to happen. They've been doing this shit for years, so it's not going to change.

Eve Kosofky Sedgwick (1993) emphasizes that the terms gay, straight, bisexual, etc., for example, cannot actually encompass the diversity of individuals within those groups. In all types of identification, we simultaneously identify with other identities, a fact which troubles all &#819;overarching&#8216; identity groups. Assuming that any particular identity, like gay, White, or transgender will be the primary salient identity of a given individual is overly simplistic.

Interviewees in both my earlier and this current research, moreover, viewed the representation of marginalized groups in games as relatively unimportant.

Stuart Hall explains these aspects of identification with characters:

The fully unified, completed, secure, and coherent identity is a fantasy. Instead, as the systems of meaning and cultural representation multiply, we are confronted by a bewildering, fleeting multiplicity of possible identities, any one of which we could identify with &#8212; at least temporarily

However, as Shaw states, representation still matters;

It is not simply an issue of whether or not people generally think representation is important. It is the distinction between realism and fiction, between serious and play, which form the biggest divides between those who see diversity in media as a necessary goal, and those who see it as relatively trivial. I also argue that the way minority representation has been made to matter, through marketing and assumptions about audiences&#8216; interactions with texts, promotes pluralism, in the sense that groups are only represented if they are targeted as a market. The defense of representation on the basis of marginalized groups&#8216; need to see people &#8213;like them, leads to niche marketing (pluralism). In contrast, diversity in video games should be promoted as valuable unto itself. This is feasible in part, because players&#8216; relationships with in-game characters are complex and, in part, because interviewees stressed that they did not only need to see people like them in their media. Researchers should question, moreover, the assumption that diversity requires a defense in the first place. Marginalized audiences are often called upon to demand representation, but media producers are not sufficiently called upon to see diversity as an integral part of their products, rather than a feature only included if thecase for such inclusion can be made.
 
Erik Kain @ Forbes put out another great atricle (imo at least) in response to The Verge's.
I realize most of the regular posters ITT will undoubtably see things differently (which is fine), but I'd suggest giving it a read through to, at the very least, see things from another perspective.

The only way I see this mess being at least somewhat resolved is for gaming journalists to take the initiative by starting some form of discussion rather than pushing inflammatory narratives.
Generalizations and demonizing really do nothing to solve any of this. It only dumps fuel on the fire. I feel like Forbes, Slate, and The Escapist have been doing a really awesome job when it comes to this stuff.
 
Erik Kain @ Forbes put out another great atricle (imo at least) in response to The Verge's.
I realize most of the regular posters ITT will undoubtably see things differently (which is fine), but I'd suggest giving it a read through to, at the very least, see things from another perspective.

The only way I see this mess being at least somewhat resolved is for gaming journalists to take the initiative by starting some form of discussion rather than pushing inflammatory narratives.
Generalizations and demonizing really do nothing to solve any of this. It only dumps fuel on the fire.
It's not generalizing and demonizing so much as accurately describing gamergate. what "inflammatory narrative" are you even talking about? there's nothing there.
 
Erik Kain @ Forbes put out another great atricle (imo at least) in response to The Verge's.
I realize most of the regular posters ITT will undoubtably see things differently (which is fine), but I'd suggest giving it a read through to, at the very least, see things from another perspective.

The only way I see this mess being at least somewhat resolved is for gaming journalists to take the initiative by starting some form of discussion rather than pushing inflammatory narratives.
Generalizations and demonizing really do nothing to solve any of this. It only dumps fuel on the fire. I feel like Forbes, Slate, and The Escapist have been doing a really awesome job when it comes to this stuff.

erik kain willing to move beyond the "started by misogynist, it's only misogyny" rhetoric! me likes!
 
Erik Kain @ Forbes put out another great atricle (imo at least) in response to The Verge's.
I realize most of the regular posters ITT will undoubtably see things differently (which is fine), but I'd suggest giving it a read through to, at the very least, see things from another perspective.

The only way I see this mess being at least somewhat resolved is for gaming journalists to take the initiative by starting some form of discussion rather than pushing inflammatory narratives.
Generalizations and demonizing really do nothing to solve any of this. It only dumps fuel on the fire. I feel like Forbes, Slate, and The Escapist have been doing a really awesome job when it comes to this stuff.

I'm right here. Hi.
 
Erik Kain @ Forbes put out another great atricle (imo at least) in response to The Verge's.
I realize most of the regular posters ITT will undoubtably see things differently (which is fine), but I'd suggest giving it a read through to, at the very least, see things from another perspective.

The only way I see this mess being at least somewhat resolved is for gaming journalists to take the initiative by starting some form of discussion rather than pushing inflammatory narratives.
Generalizations and demonizing really do nothing to solve any of this. It only dumps fuel on the fire. I feel like Forbes, Slate, and The Escapist have been doing a really awesome job when it comes to this stuff.

I mean, this Forbes article is generalizing as well. I don't think anyone should discount an article just because it uses some generalizations.
 
erik kain willing to move beyond the "started by misogynist, it's only misogyny" rhetoric! me likes!

If gamer gate wants to move past accusations of misogyny it would be nice to see proponents take a more self reflective and active stance against the misogyny within it. Don't just say "I am against harassing women" or "I have never harassed a woman." You chose to shack up with some really hateful people, if you don't want to be associated with their hate you gotta take the lead and do work to make sure the harassment stops. If the worst elements of gamer gate are directly told by the best that what they are doing is not ok it will be a lot more effective than hearing the same thing from "sjw" types.
 
Erik Kain @ Forbes put out another great atricle (imo at least) in response to The Verge's.
I realize most of the regular posters ITT will undoubtably see things differently (which is fine), but I'd suggest giving it a read through to, at the very least, see things from another perspective.

The only way I see this mess being at least somewhat resolved is for gaming journalists to take the initiative by starting some form of discussion rather than pushing inflammatory narratives.
Generalizations and demonizing really do nothing to solve any of this. It really only dumps fuel on the fire.

Man, Erik Kain simply does not get it. Dude needs both a course in basic argumentation theory and an introduction theory to feminism 101. I'm going to go through his article, because I know that people listen to him and that someone thinks he's a knowledgeable voice when it comes to video games in general. Unfortunately, this article is not such a case.

Like, he states that,

I can&#8217;t help but think I&#8217;m a target here, even though this doesn&#8217;t describe me

from his reading of the Jacobin article, as if he is inserting himself into what is being criticized. He completely fails to understand that Frase is referencing a specific subset of misogynistic nerds.

And then he goes on a tirade to defend himself through his love life, as if he is an example of a Nice Nerd with a healthy view of the opposite sex. He just doesn't get the argument being made, i.e. that it's not about him and he doesn't need to prove that he's not a misogynistic nerd himself. Seriously.

Similarly he uses the "non-Gamer" argument to exclude Frase's viewpoints when Kain writes that:

These writers latch onto an entire group of people and then gleefully denounce them. I can forgive Peter Frase, a politics writer at a non-gaming website, for coming to these conclusions. It&#8217;s reminiscent of the myriad publications who decry games for causing school shootings and violence. It comes across as uninformed, the writings of someone who latches on to the type of stuff he sees written in video game publications themselves.

He then proceeds to state that "this is not a gamer problem, but an Internet problem", as if anyone is actually saying that gamers are the only vile people existing. This argument by Kain obscures the issue and takes away focus from the fact that people within gaming culture are experiencing harassment and threats. Yes, other places are terribly bigoted as well. But that does not excuse or take away from the fact that gaming culture do in fact have a problem with people who aren't white straight males.

Kain then proceeds to make the frankly ignorant and unaware assumption that anyone is saying that playing video games make you sexist, when he writes:

As far as I know this is true: We do have a sacrosanct right to beat virtual prostitutes to death in video games. Or at least a constitutional right. And nobody is worried that this right is being taken away, nor making a big deal out of the whole &#8220;beat a prostitute to death in GTA V&#8221; thing except for a group of people who thinks this means that all gamers are inherently sexist and that video games cause sexism. Which I find to be a ludicrous argument&#8212;every bit as absurd and gross as the notion that video games cause real world violence. Gamers don&#8217;t want games to be sexist for sexism&#8217;s sake, they just don&#8217;t want content to be dictated to them by the critics.

Like, Sarkeesian and tons of other people have yelled this from the mountain tops of Himalaya in every damn video and article they've made that consuming sexist media does not mean you yourself become sexist. You just have to be aware of the problematic elements of it and that is perfectly fine. I seriously can't believe Kain falls into the same uninformed and stubborn sinkhole that so many others constantly fall into because they do not listen and they do not pay attention to the people who are talking about issues concerning social and political aspects.

Kain subsequently says that the way that the discussion is going on right now, is basically "finger-pointing and moralizing", which again, is another instance of him failing to understand that criticism of video games does not mean that you yourself are a bigot for enjoying them. No one is being attacked. No one is being personally compromised in the discussion of sexist or racist or homophobic portrayals and behavior in the video game industry.

Finally, Kain steps yet again in the spinach when he writes that "For one thing, we are not all gamers.", thereby showing that he completely misunderstood Frase's point with the line "we&#8217;re all gamers now. So let&#8217;s protect each other". Similarly to Leigh Alexander's piece, Frase is talking about the fact that almost everyone plays games and is therefore a "gamer". Kain misunderstands this point as to think that it's a comment on enthusiasts versus non-enthusiasts.

And once again, Kain thinks he is personally targeted simply for playing games, like so many other people who have failed to understand what Alexander was talking about in her original piece, when Kain writes;

And yes, I say &#8220;we&#8221; because I&#8217;m a game enthusiast. I know gamers can be jerks. [...] I&#8217;m just really, really sick of hearing that all gamers are awful, that we are sexist and privileged and horrible just because a lot of us played games before it was cool, or watched cheesy science fiction before it was cool, or read fantasy novels before they were cool

Just don&#8217;t come into my hobby and then tell me I&#8217;m a horrible person because that stereotype you have about me still exists in your head.

The whole "come into my hobby and tell me I'm a horrible person" is simply a really weird statement to make. He is projecting and misunderstanding to a very large extent and I am frankly surprised that he hasn't researched and interviewed people more than having knee-jerk reactions to pieces related to social and political aspects and the toxicity of gamer culture.

In the later sections, he makes the usual "why can't we just have fun and play video games?" dismissal that once again obscures the issue and takes away the focus on how people are being mistreated and harassed within that very same culture of "fun":

Politics. Stupid, hideous, fun-destroying politics are killing video games. At a certain point all I can do is throw my hands in the air and walk away. Go play some video games. Shake my head in disgust. I was worried this issue would be spun this way, and now it has.

Then he repeats the "stop calling me sexist!" line once again.

There are sexists everywhere, so why do so many people who write about games constantly paint a portrait of the gamer as sexist? There are violent scenes and sex in movies, so why do gamers always get pinned as violent and obsessed with objectifying women? I admit, I&#8217;m just tired of all the moralizing. I expect it from the non-gamers. I expect it from FOX News and CBS and CNN and all the places where games have long been demonized or laughed at. I don&#8217;t expect it from game publications.

In sum, all I can say is that this particular piece by Erik Kain (as well as his prior coverage of the Gamergate thing and his complete unawareness of the harassment involved in the campaign) tells me that he is not equipped to talk about these issues and he would really benefit from talking to people concerned and working with gender and racial politics in media and video games. He is perpetuating false beliefs about social issues in video games and he is unknowingly using his platform as a writer to further marginalize the people exposed to harassment and threats by legitimizing a movement rooted in misogyny with the aim to silence and quell any criticism related to gender, race & sexuality and such issues.

Kain needs to sit down and learn before writing another article on this subject.
 
Geez, Lime, save some for the rest of us. No point in me rebutting Kain's article as well.

I do have to say that when the author gets something wrong in the very first paragraph, "While most “gamers are over” articles popped up near the end of August, The Verge waited until yesterday to publish T.C. Sottek’s denouncement of #GamerGate and, by extension, gamers as a whole.", it's usually not a very good sign.
 
Erik Kain also proves that he does not grasp the history of Gamergate, when he presents a demonstrably false order of events:

gamergateloltuu9w.png

That's not a rebuttal of his article (which I posted above), but it is an indication of his inability to understand the subject matter comprehensively.
 
If gamer gate wants to move past accusations of misogyny it would be nice to see proponents take a more self reflective and active stance against the misogyny within it. Don't just say "I am against harassing women" or "I have never harassed a woman." You chose to shack up with some really hateful people, if you don't want to be associated with their hate you gotta take the lead and do work to make sure the harassment stops. If the worst elements of gamer gate are directly told by the best that what they are doing is not ok it will be a lot more effective than hearing the same thing from "sjw" types.

Before SJW's start accusing people of bigotry, they should get their own house in order.

Etc etc etc

You're just saying that one side of the argument is morally pure and perfect, and the other is not. This view can be held by both sides, and then nothing will happen to resolve anything. Just further engrained tribalism.
 
Furthermore, Sottek isn’t even being honest. Sottek doesn’t believe that “we are all gamers.” After all, #GamerGate and its supporters are, apparently, no longer wanted, no longer needed, confined to the dustbin of history and good riddance. Leigh Alexander and the bevy of writers who followed in her footsteps made this abundantly clear: Games have evolved (true!) and now include more types of players and games than ever (also true!) so now gamers are irrelevant and need to go away (false!). Somehow, this group of people who has been playing games for all this time are just a nuisance. We should be dragged out of polite society and tossed into the wind.

This is such an obtuse misunderstanding that he has to know he's doing it. Especially amusing that he's doing it in the same sections accusing the other guy of doing it.
 
Really well said.

The idea that he could seriously suggest that anything is "destroying video games" simultaneously shows how warped his view of the situation is and why he is so crazy defensive.

That podcast that was posted earlier basically airbrushed off the entirety of the harassment associated with Gamergate.

Before SJW's start accusing people of bigotry, they should get their own house in order.

Etc etc etc

That's what everyone's being doing. Brice, Cross, Rhodes, Street have done it several times. Many other people have been calling for people to be open and forthcoming to middle-ground followers of GG.

Furthermore, anyone doing harassment or doxing in the name of social justice is misguided and is severely called out by other people.
 
Before SJW's start accusing people of bigotry, they should get their own house in order.

Etc etc etc

You're just saying that one side of the argument is morally pure and perfect, and the other is not. This view can be held by both sides, and then nothing will happen to resolve anything. Just further engrained tribalism.

One problem with what you're saying is that "gamer gate" is a specific movement actively adopted by it's supporters. "SJW", on the other hand, is most commonly a pejorative assigned by the detractors of a certain "side." SJW is used more by the people against feminist criticism than the people for it. Therefore, the detractors get to decide who is a SJW and who isn't.

So, if I've never called myself a SJW, never identified as such, and really have no idea what SJW means, I don't really feel the need or responsibility to clean up the bad parts of SJWs. If you willingly say you support gamer gate, you absolutely should feel the responsibility to clean up the bad parts of gamer gate.
 
"Players who are members of a marginalized group accept, if begrudgingly, the lack of representation of that group in video games because they are not part of the adolescent, White, heterosexual, male gaming market. At times, this results in a sort of defeated apathy. Sasha described, representation is &#8213;not important, but it's nice! Even though it's not going to happen. They've been doing this shit for years, so it's not going to change."

That describes my perspective perfectly. When I was 6 to 12 years old, I loved to play as characters who "look like me." But over time, it became close to impossible. I became socialized and globalized and I just don't care anymore. Lol. "It'd be nice...buuuut, it's not going to happen."

This is where some of #GG's weird opinions on inclusivity and "protecting artistic freedom"gets weird and muddy. I've seen many people convinced that advocating for diversity/avoiding stereotypes is somehow seen as "bullying"; but I don't think I've ever seen a backlash due to a game being too inclusive & not discriminatory enough when portraying people. (so they're against talking about inclusivity in gaming, but totally okay with actual inclusivity?)

Here's the thing. People, especially adults, hate being told what to do. People wish to do things on their own accord. People, very naturally hate being blamed, shamed or judged...especially if they've fallen victim to social rejection in their past. So yelling at them about inclusion is more likely to make them less happy about it. However, if it supposedly happens without any "influence," then they're ecstatic. It's just a psychological thing. I like being nice because I want to be nice, not because someone forced/threatened me to. That's the kind of issue we're running into time and time again. It's the kind of "I would have done it, but since you told me to do it, I'm not going to do it!" kind of attitude that a lot of people have.

Erik Kain @ Forbes put out another great atricle (imo at least) in response to The Verge's.
I realize most of the regular posters ITT will undoubtably see things differently (which is fine), but I'd suggest giving it a read through to, at the very least, see things from another perspective.

The only way I see this mess being at least somewhat resolved is for gaming journalists to take the initiative by starting some form of discussion rather than pushing inflammatory narratives.
Generalizations and demonizing really do nothing to solve any of this. It only dumps fuel on the fire. I feel like Forbes, Slate, and The Escapist have been doing a really awesome job when it comes to this stuff.

I think the gist is good. It's not good to generalize or demonize. I want to engage. However I don't think misogyny is demonizing...everyone does some woman hating every now and then. That's life. I think it's fair to say I have misogynistic and misandristic tendencies every now and then. After all, every human being is a bit of a misanthrope when their trust is broken. However gamergate started off with hundreds of people saying "This isn't about misogyny...this is about that whore who slept to get good reviews for her game!" How do you say that straight faced without realizing what you're insinuating...? That was the unanimous sentiment that echoed for several weeks. That was happening...while swatting and plane bomb threats were happening at the same time. How can you look at that week and NOT say something wasn't wrong about "gamers." Something went terribly terribly wrong with gamers. We were front stage and center that week, because everyone fell off their rocker over the "vidya."

I certainly wouldn't compare gamergate to an actual violent group...but psychological terrorism might be an accurate word. The consequences of mobbing people...is unreal.

"The most important thing to understand is that you will go a little insane. At the very beginning of the mobbing, when the right response is crucial, adrenalin will kick in and you'll shift into fight or flight or freeze response. You'll be torn between anger over being attacked and despair for the consequences to your reputation. You will desperately want to do anything that will make things better, but you won't have a clue what that may be.

Your instinct to make the mobbing end immediately will be more correct than you will know at the time. The longterm psychological efforts of mobbing can be so horrible that most members of a mob would be ashamed if they knew what they were doing, no matter what they thought you had done. Most mobbing targets have to deal with some degree of adjustment disorder. Some kill themselves. During and after a mobbing, you may have trouble sleeping. You may eat or drink more. You may be unable to focus on your work. The depression and obsession that can be caused by a mobbing may drive away the friends who had stood by you during the mobbing, starting another and deeper cycle of depression and obsession."
 
That describes my perspective perfectly. When I was 6 to 12 years old, I loved to play as characters who "look like me." But over time, it became close to impossible. I became socialized and globalized and I just don't care anymore. Lol. "It'd be nice...buuuut, it's not going to happen."



Here's the thing. People, especially adults, hate being told what to do. People wish to do things on their own accord. People, very naturally hate being blamed, shamed or judged...especially if they've fallen victim to social rejection in their past. So yelling at them about inclusion is more likely to make them less happy about it. However, if it supposedly happens without any "influence," then they're ecstatic. It's just a psychological thing. I like being nice because I want to be nice, not because someone forced/threatened me to. That's the kind of issue we're running into time and time again. It's the kind of "I would have done it, but since you told me to do it, I'm not going to do it!" kind of attitude that a lot of people have.



I think the gist is good. It's not good to generalize or demonize. I want to engage. However I don't think misogyny is demonizing...everyone does some woman hating every now and then. That's life. I think it's fair to say I have misogynistic and misandristic tendencies every now and then. After all, every human being is a bit of a misanthrope when their trust is broken. However gamergate started off with hundreds of people saying "This isn't about misogyny...this is about that whore who slept to get good reviews for her game!" How do you say that straight faced without realizing what you're insinuating...? That was the unanimous sentiment that echoed for several weeks. That was happening...while swatting and plane bomb threats were happening at the same time. How can you look at that week and NOT say something wasn't wrong about "gamers." Something went terribly terribly wrong with gamers. We were front stage and center that week, because everyone fell off their rocker over the "vidya."

I certainly wouldn't compare gamergate to an actual violent group...but psychological terrorism might be an accurate word. The consequences of mobbing people...is unreal.

"The most important thing to understand is that you will go a little insane. At the very beginning of the mobbing, when the right response is crucial, adrenalin will kick in and you'll shift into fight or flight or freeze response. You'll be torn between anger over being attacked and despair for the consequences to your reputation. You will desperately want to do anything that will make things better, but you won't have a clue what that may be.

Your instinct to make the mobbing end immediately will be more correct than you will know at the time. The longterm psychological efforts of mobbing can be so horrible that most members of a mob would be ashamed if they knew what they were doing, no matter what they thought you had done. Most mobbing targets have to deal with some degree of adjustment disorder. Some kill themselves. During and after a mobbing, you may have trouble sleeping. You may eat or drink more. You may be unable to focus on your work. The depression and obsession that can be caused by a mobbing may drive away the friends who had stood by you during the mobbing, starting another and deeper cycle of depression and obsession."
Sorry, but I have to disagree. At least on one point.

Something went terribly terribly wrong with gamers."
Let's be honest here. There's nothing wrong with "gamers". There's something very wrong with some people who play games and spew those kind of statements and display that kind of behavior. But don't diminish yourself by including yourself with those sick individuals. By saying "we" as if those people represent the entire community that consitutes "gamer". I'm a gamer and I have never gone batshit insane over something as trivial as a game or someone's opinion of a game
 
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