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[SilentTristero]

I don't have anything substantive to add at this point, except to say I'm heartened by the overall Gaf response to this controversy. Sometimes you can't tell which way a community will split on an issue, and it seems that overall, Gaf doesn't have much patience for hate campaigns. Bravo.

 

[Orayn]

Yes, here on Gaf. This hasn't happened anywhere in the gaming press, as far as I can tell.

Okay, find me an article from the gaming press that clearly states that anyone who disagrees with any aspect of Tropes vs. Women is a misogynist. That's what you're asserting, right?

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

History.



Look at the arguments between self-declared feminists about Nicki Minaj's Anaconda video. I have seen no arguments between self-declared feminists about Anita Sarkeesian's videos at any mainstream gaming website.

Games media is fundamentally different from other media in this respect.

The Sarkeesian videos wouldn't gather all of these dissenting feminist opinions if they were in regard to another medium like film or tv because they are really basic concepts that are already accepted in criticism of other media. It's only with gaming, where the fan base is in its cultural infancy, that her basic premises would provoke dissent.

 

[BlastProcessing]

History.

Counterpoint: Behavioral Science

 

[Fhtagn]

There has been a ton of debate here at Gaf about Sarkeesian's videos. There is plenty to disagree with.

Sorry, yeah, I edited my post because I missed three very important words that changed the meaning dramatically. You pointed out contentious discussion of Anaconda within feminist circles and contrasted that to lack of contentious discussion of Anita's videos. The reason is the latter are totally uncontroversial within feminist circles, so it's not a good comparison.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Okay, find me an article from the gaming press that clearly states that anyone who disagrees with any aspect of Tropes vs. Women is a misogynist. That's what you're asserting, right?

No. What I'm claiming is that mainstream gaming websites do not provide a platform for reasoned criticisms of Tropes vs Women or feminist critiques of gaming more broadly, and then attempt to portray such criticisms as do arise as being motivated by misogyny.

Sorry, yeah, I edited my post because I missed three very important words that changed the meaning dramatically. You pointed out contentious discussion of Anaconda within feminist circles and contrasted that to lack of contentious discussion of Anita's videos. The reason is the latter are totally uncontroversial within feminist circles, so it's not a good comparison.

There are plenty of things in Sarkeesian's videos that are controversial within feminist circles. The very idea that you can make sweeping judgments about "the state of a medium" based on collating a bunch of decontextualized tropes is something that wouldn't pass muster in an academic setting.

 

[CLEEK]

Gaming exists in a context where disagreeing with a given feminist critique is interpreted as disagreeing with feminism.

It's bizarre. Great swathes of Anita's critique can be argued or rebutted, but it's so hard to do without a core group of her supports calling you misogynistic.

I think that the fact gaming and feminism is crossing streams now, compared to decades ago for other media, is at the heart of it. Online social media and blogging has given millions of people (most of them idiots) a vocal contribution in the discussion.

Twitter kills rational debate. It's main purpose is for taking sides and making pithy comments and hyperbolic sound bites.

Every article written about women in gaming, whatever its core message actually is, easily gets lost in a sea of reactionary tweets. If you write an article disagreeing with a Tropes Vs video, it is a certainty that someone, somewhere will call you a misogynist for it.

It doesn't help that some of the smarter people who comment on this are heavily Twitter users themselves.

 

[endless dave]

No. What I'm claiming is that mainstream gaming websites do not provide a platform for reasoned criticisms of Tropes vs Women or feminist critiques of gaming more broadly, and then attempt to portray such criticisms as do arise as being motivated by misogyny.

Could you prove this please?

 

[Fhtagn]

No. What I'm claiming is that mainstream gaming websites do not provide a platform for reasoned criticisms of Tropes vs Women or feminist critiques of gaming more broadly, and then attempt to portray such criticisms as do arise as being motivated by misogyny.

Do you have an example of a critique of her videos that you think is not motivated by misogyny or at least denial of there being representation issues in gaming? I'd like to get a sense of what criticism you think there is to be had that isn't just flat denial that anything is wrong, nor misunderstanding her message as just "games are bad," nor just nitpicking details to avoid engaging in the larger point.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Could you prove this please?

There have been no articles or editorials at mainstream gaming websites critiquing Sarkeesian's critique. There have been tons of articles (Leigh Alexander, Polygon's coverage of the Intel advertising thing, the recent Verge article) that attempt to portray dissatisfaction with the gaming media as being motivated by misogyny.

Do you have an example of a critique of her videos that you think is not motivated by misogyny or at least denial of there being representation issues in gaming? I'd like to get a sense of what criticism you think there is to be had that isn't just flat denial that anything is wrong, nor misunderstanding her message as just "games are bad," nor just nitpicking details to avoid engaging in the larger point.

I don't think anyone's made one. The only place I've seen her videos actually subjected to rigorous criticism is here on Gaf.

 

[Fhtagn]

There are plenty of things in Sarkeesian's videos that are controversial within feminist circles. The very idea that you can make sweeping judgments about "the state of a medium" based on collating a bunch of decontextualized tropes is something that wouldn't pass muster in an academic setting.

Can you provide proof of this? I am tight with academics (my partner is one, so I hang out with a bunch) and feminists, and her videos are anything but controversial as far as I can tell.

 

[vcc]

You could make this statement about any of a number of hashtags. This isn't evidence to support the assertion that Gamergate is principally about harassment.

That doesn't imply the other hashtags have any deeper meaning either. If that's all they do, that's all they are.

 

[CLEEK]

Sorry, yeah, I edited my post because I missed three very important words that changed the meaning dramatically. You pointed out contentious discussion of Anaconda within feminist circles and contrasted that to lack of contentious discussion of Anita's videos. The reason is the latter are totally uncontroversial within feminist circles, so it's not a good comparison.

The sexual objectification of women in games is very much a hot topic. How is that any different from the sexual objectification of women in music videos? Something which constantly causes schisms amongst feminists each time a new example arises.

 

[FlyinJ]

Has this been posted yet:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...ate-interviews/12384-Xbro-GamerGate-Interview

I find this to be the most hilarious part of the article:

From your insight into private discussions, what percentage of game developers would you guess are on the gamers' side in this?

Well, as a rough estimate in my studio, I would say above 95%.

So, there you go. 95% of the Xbox division supports GamerGate!

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

The sexual objectification of women in games is very much a hot topic. How is that any different from the sexual objectification of women in music videos? Something which constantly causes schisms amongst feminists each time a new example arises.

For one thing, because women are much more involved in the production and performance of sexualized music videos. That creates an entire layer that is usually absent from games. Bayonetta is an interesting counter example, but is a counter example, not the trend.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Can you provide proof of this? I am tight with academics (my partner is one, so I hang out with a bunch) and feminists, and her videos are anything but controversial as far as I can tell.

I don't know how you want me to prove that. This is my stance as an academic, this is what I've been taught, this is what I teach my students: tropes by themselves mean nothing when taken out of the context of the works they're in, you can't make serious arguments about the treatment of groups in a given medium solely on the basis of the prevalence of negative tropes in that medium.

 

[partyphone]

what an interesting debate strategy imru ha . make an unsubstantiated claim, accuse others of your own worst behavior, obsessively reply to everyone who disagrees with you and generally annoy everyone. next he's going ti claim victory because no one can refute his empty claims.

 

[endless dave]

I don't know how you want me to prove that. This is my stance as an academic, this is what I've been taught, this is what I teach my students: tropes by themselves mean nothing when taken out of the context of the works they're in, you can't make serious arguments about the treatment of groups in a given medium solely on the basis of the prevalence of negative tropes in that medium.

Could you please provide proof that you are a teacher and teach this to your students?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Yeah, as an academic Imru I would have assumed that you were familiar with begging the question. It would make for a more interesting discussion if you could substantiate your claims rather than simply alluding to them being the product of an overwhelming and widely understood basis which you have yet to clarify.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Has this been posted yet:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...ate-interviews/12384-Xbro-GamerGate-Interview

I find this to be the most hilarious part of the article:

So, there you go. 95% of the Xbox division supports GamerGate!

An interview with a developer that does not want his name in the media (isn't allowed to do interviews by his company most likely) does not hold that much value to me. The fact that industry figures rather stay a thousand miles away from this stuff also tells you something about it.

From the interview:

Our audience is huge, and extremely diverse, so we all know to expect people with less moral fiber to be part of it

I don't know what this 'less moral fiber' is about. But if you know the audience is huge and diverse, why support a movement that apparently has a problem with this diversity and the discussion that comes with it.

From what I have followed, Gamergate is constantly moving the goalpost and seeing every bad thing with the 'movement' (I don't even want to call it that) as an isolated incident and exception, yet on the other side all people are against them and speak as one. There is no way to 'win' with them, since there is no discussion to be had.

 

[Mael]

Has this been posted yet:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...ate-interviews/12384-Xbro-GamerGate-Interview

I find this to be the most hilarious part of the article:



So, there you go. 95% of the Xbox division supports GamerGate!

Well duh they're really the one division that pushed heavily the whole "Gamer" angle in their marketing.
If you want to look at where the whole "gamer" as a male in 15-35 age bracket as a demographic target, they're really where you need to look.

 

[tonysidaway]

Sure. Polygon's editorial line is that misogyny is pervasive in gaming.

It's certainly shockingly prevalent. Do you really want to adopt a debating society attitude to this? _The misogyny may stink, but let's put pegs on our noses so we can discuss it formally._ That attitude also stinks. Just stop it.

 

[JackDT]

There's an Adam Baldwin #gg interview... Hadn't seen that site before.

EveryJoe is the ultimate boy’s club. From the latest sports news and political happenings to the hottest girls on the Internet and the entertainment buzz, EveryJoe delivers non-stop action to men on the go. “No Girls Allowed” may not quite apply, but this boys’ club is focused on a community of shared interests around sports, politics, girls, laughs, crime and entertainment.

http://www.everyjoe.com/2014/10/06/news/interview-adam-baldwin-gamergate-politics-ranger/

Of all the places to do the interview. Maybe not the best choice.

 

[Fhtagn]

I don't know how you want me to prove that. This is my stance as an academic, this is what I've been taught, this is what I teach my students: tropes by themselves mean nothing when taken out of the context of the works they're in, you can't make serious arguments about the treatment of groups in a given medium solely on the basis of the prevalence of negative tropes in that medium.

I just want you to provide some examples of feminist/academic critique of Anita's videos that you are claiming exist.

 

[Corpekata]

Wow Escapist actually interviewed Roguestar, the guy that's talked about cracking emails and reporting people to the IRS? I mean, I get Daniel Vavra and Brad Wardell, but how on earth could they think interviewing him was a good idea? And they didn't even ask about that.

 

[FoneBone]

There's an Adam Baldwin #gg interview... Hadn't seen that site before.

http://www.everyjoe.com/2014/10/06/news/interview-adam-baldwin-gamergate-politics-ranger/

Of all the places to do the interview. Maybe not the best choice.

It's another site owned by Alexander "Cultural Marxism" Macris' company.

 

[Messofanego]

I don't think "ethics" is the right framing for any of this, any more than "misogyny" is the right framing.

Isn't this poster what #gamergate people stand by? Which has explicitly to do with ethics in the industry?

 

[endless dave]

EveryJoe: How do you feel about the direction of the GamerGate movement that you helped create? Is it moving in the right direction? Is it a positive force?

Adam: I think any sunlight shed on journalistic ethics is positive. In any large movement there are going to be jerks, and you have to put that out as a disclaimer with anything you talk about. There’s always going to be some jerks! But the jerks aren’t the driving forces of what GamerGate is all about.

GamerGate all would have been over within a day or two had the game journalists just said “You know what? You’re right. We’re going to change our policies.” At your Escapist Magazine, you guys did that, you had some introspection — “we need to set up some policies so people know where we are coming from” — and that’s a good thing. It gives the others, Gamasutra and Kotaku and the other ones that refused to do it, an example. If they had just done that, it would have been over immediately.

If only you had just given in to our vague, indiscernible demands, were would have all backed off! This really is YOUR fault, you see.

 

[MHWilliams]

It's another site owned by Alexander "Cultural Marxism" Macris' company.

I feel for Greg Tito. He's a good guy trying to navigate a nightmare.

And on Baldwin's point, a number of sites already had ethics policies.

 

[JackDT]

His investigation was disrupted because Zoe Quinn logged onto a public IRC channel about herself? What does that have to do with him or anything else? How does this make any kind of sense?
I can't even really criticize it it just seems like a non sequitur?

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Isn't this poster what #gamergate people stand by? Which has explicitly to do with ethics in the industry?

Note that biased comes first, before corrupt. Gamergate is about identity politics to a larger degree than it is about ethics, in my view.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

It's certainly shockingly prevalent. Do you really want to adopt a debating society attitude to this? _The misogyny may stink, but let's put pegs on our noses so we can discuss it formally._ That attitude also stinks. Just stop it.

That's the only way something like this can be discussed.

Yeah, as an academic Imru I would have assumed that you were familiar with begging the question. It would make for a more interesting discussion if you could substantiate your claims rather than simply alluding to them being the product of an overwhelming and widely understood basis which you have yet to clarify.

You're going to have to be more specific. What claims do you want substantiated? That feminist critiques are transmitted uncritically by mainstream gaming websites, and critiques of those critiques not transmitted at all?

Could you please provide proof that you are a teacher and teach this to your students?

I'm not going to post my name and employer, no.

 

[VibratingDonkey]

Wow Escapist actually interviewed Roguestar, the guy that's talked about cracking emails and reporting people to the IRS? I mean, I get Daniel Vavra and Brad Wardell, but how on earth could they think interviewing him was a good idea? And they didn't even ask about that.

Wow really? That guy's been one of the crazier ggaters. Probably not the best of ideas.

Editor's Note #2: We have removed the testimony of Slade Villena, known as RogueStar, after we've received evidence that he has harassed some contributors to The Escapist. Due to our strong policy against all harassment and abuse, Villena's opinions will no longer be presented alongside those of his colleagues.

Speaking of.

Ggate is not happy about it. They really wanted this guy to speak for them apparently.
Ggate is not about Zoe Quinn.

 

[Mman235]

His investigation was disrupted because Zoe Quinn logged onto a public IRC channel about herself? What does that have to do with him or anything else? How does this make any kind of sense?
I can't even really criticize it it just seems like a non sequitur?

lol is he really going for the "the chat logs were posted without context!!" argument when the in-context ones GamerGate people themselves released were just as bad or worse?

 

[JackDT]

Even if give him a massive benefit of a doubt with respect to 'investigating Phil Fish' (which I don't really), what does Zoe posting IRC logs have anything to do with that, or him at all, like wtf?

 

[tonysidaway]

That's the only way something like this can be discussed.

At what point would you admit that action is merited? An actual bombing and not just a credible terroristic threat?

 

[Mael]

Even if give him a massive benefit of a doubt with respect to 'investigating Phil Fish', what does Zoe posting IRC logs have anything to do with that, or him at all, like wtf?

Even worse, he really seem to believe that she wasn't harassed or anything.

At what point would you admit that action is merited? An actual bombing and not just a credible terroristic threat?

Nah, that wouldn't be enough it would still be deemed as fringe elements.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

At what point would you admit that action is merited? An actual bombing and not just a credible terroristic threat?

What "action" are you talking about? Actually, I'm not sure I've ever said that "action" wasn't merited.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Isn't this poster what #gamergate people stand by? Which has explicitly to do with ethics in the industry?

What the fuck does "Can we play video games already" mean?
This is hilarious coming from the "group" that produces and/or consumes 2 hours (rough estimate) of video content on youtube each day.

 

[Orayn]

What the fuck does "Can we play video games already" mean?
This is hilarious coming from the "group" that produces and/or consumes 2 hours (rough estimate) of video content on youtube each day.

"This thing that I don't have to participate in is somehow preventing me from playing video games so we need to address it so I can play them again!"

It's basically a "PLAY THE GAME NOT THE RESOLUTION" comment in a Digital Foundry thread.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

What the fuck does "Can we play video games already" mean?

I imagine it means something like "can the gaming press stop sermonizing to me about social issues?"

 

[tonysidaway]

What "action" are you talking about? Actually, I'm not sure I've ever said that "action" wasn't merited.

I asked because you seem to be so intent on further debate about whether gaming is riddled with misogyny. Action would be saying it is and, obviously, condemning it. Holding the broader community to account for turning a blind eye. Because while we mess around in the rough looking for your imaginary lost golf ball, women in gaming are being attacked, threatened with rape and murder, for having opinions

 

[Corto]

Note that biased comes first, before corrupt. Gamergate is about identity politics to a larger degree than it is about ethics, in my view.

In my view that is just a diversionary tactic to justify the movement original blatant misogynist nature.

 

[Orayn]

I imagine it means something like "can the gaming press stop sermonizing to me about social issues?"

That universal mandate requiring all gamers to read every article on every site hit those poor GamerGate folks pretty hard.

 

[tonysidaway]

I imagine it means something like "can the gaming press stop sermonizing to me about social issues?"

Are rape threats "social issues"? Or is there another word? Are the police and the FBI investigating "social issues?"

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

I asked because you seem to be so intent on further debate about whether gaming is riddled with misogyny. Action would be saying it is and, obviously, condemning it. Holding the broader community to account for turning a blind eye. Because while we mess around in the right looking for your imaginary lost golf ball, women in gaming are being attacked, threatened with rape and murder, for having opinions

Saying gaming is riddled with misogyny and condemning it isn't action, it's speech. Speech doesn't become action just because you agree with it. I also don't think that doing what you suggest constitutes "holding the broader community to account for turning a blind eye," since holding someone to account necessarily entails that they should experience some consequences for their actions.

The last part is the usual "this problem doesn't matter because this other problem is more important" fallacy. None of these problems matter compare to the imminent massacre of Yazidis in Syria, that doesn't mean we should stop discussing them.

Are rape threats "social issues"? Or is there another word?

I don't think rape threats are the social issues most Gamergate supporters have in mind.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

You're going to have to be more specific. What claims do you want substantiated? That feminist critiques are transmitted uncritically by mainstream gaming websites, and critiques of those critiques not transmitted at all?

This is what I mean, you haven't addressed this question:

I just want you to provide some examples of feminist/academic critique of Anita's videos that you are claiming exist.

And yet your reply presupposes that these critiques are abundant, but ignored.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

I imagine it means something like "can the gaming press stop sermonizing to me about social issues?"

Is it really so hard to NOT click on an article? Or just not visit a site if you think that writing about sexism might corrupt you or make you think about something for five-ten minutes? (Not *you* specifically, I mean this in general).

Actually, NOT clicking and reading articles gives you more time to play a video games already. I've yet to see an instance where a journalists or writer or blogger or whoever comes to your house and takes away your games before you admit that their portrayal of women is less than great.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I imagine it means something like "can the gaming press stop sermonizing to me about social issues?"

My biggest problem with this is that it's always seemed clear that the most vocal critics of the gaming press preaching to them are people that aren't even the target audience for the pieces going out of their way to find this egregious content. In fact, I'm fairly confident that you belong to this group. It seems fairly clear to me that you're not a regular consumer of information written by the mainstream press, but instead read the meta-coverage as reported on discussion forums.

Why is this clear? Because you'll see Alexander's piece singled out by people that aren't the target audience of Gamasutra. Or Walker from RPS singled out from people that aren't the target audience of Rock Paper Shotgun. Or any of the various other articles that don't weigh in too heavily and are often cited with no context that MHWilliams has had to debunk again and again in terms of discrediting the narrative that the nebulous "gaming press" is throwing "gamers" under the bus en masse.

Many or the other biggest targets -- folks like Zoe Quinn or Anita Sarkeesian -- aren't even members of the gaming press. It's clear that much of the backlash is manufactured, which is incredibly ironic given that the single biggest charge often levied against so-called Social Justice Warriors is that they manufacture outrage against unimportant stuff.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Also, ACCORDING TO THE VERY SAME IMAGE, Gamergate is only about "corrupt journalists". How is talking about "social issues" in ANY WAY corrupt?

Do people believe that Anita or Zoe or whoever paid off journalists to write about sexism even though they actually don't care? I guess that would be corruption, right?