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Legend of Korra Book 4: Balance |OT| A Feast of Crows

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shira dropped the bomb and ran away smh.

Lol, yeah, I can't imagine Bryke confirming something like that. They don't really give away major reveals like that ahead of time. It wouldn't make sense to anyway.

Also, Korra's art (especially but by no means exclusively the background art) continues to amaze.

tumblr_nd8vi3NMrP1rs7t8go5_1280.png
 
Did anybody else notice how good the animation was during the fire bending sequence? Seriously that fire looked amazing and it was all just so smooth and detailed.
 
That seems fair. I wasn't part of the Miyazaki discussion really, I'm just saying I want more of the big spirits.

Yeah, I know but it looks like now that TLoK is ending we won't be seeing any of the other big spirits. :/

I wouldn't say that. We have empathy because we are social animals. A creature does not need to concern itself with socialization for the purposes of survival (which I'm sure many spirits wouldn't) or even reproduction (again, many spirits are presumably immortal), empathy would be a pretty useless trait for them. I'm sure they'd have a connection to the avatar and seek to help, but that doesn't necessitate good things for Korra. For example, a spirit could come along, see Korra's disconnect to Raava, and think that the next life would reconnect them. So the spirit would then try to strangle Korra on the spot, all the while knowing it was doing it's best service possible to the Avatar. And it'd be true too. And empathy is particularly a point of contention when discussing various creatures of many mythologies.

If it weren't for Korra, a lot of the small spirits would have ended up getting corrupted/enslaved by Vaatu. It's not surprising at all that the weaker spirits respect/revere Korra due to her actions and because she houses the most powerful spirit in existence (aka Raava) within her.

Like the kami of Earth's Shintoism, the spirits in A:TLA vary immensely in strength, appearance, and behavior. Some are awe-inducing gods and others steal your socks that's just how they are.
 
I wouldn't say that. We have empathy because we are social animals. A creature does not need to concern itself with socialization for the purposes of survival (which I'm sure many spirits wouldn't) or even reproduction (again, many spirits are presumably immortal), empathy would be a pretty useless trait for them. I'm sure they'd have a connection to the avatar and seek to help, but that doesn't necessitate good things for Korra. For example, a spirit could come along, see Korra's disconnect to Raava, and think that the next life would reconnect them. So the spirit would then try to strangle Korra on the spot, all the while knowing it was doing it's best service possible to the Avatar. And it'd be true too. And empathy is particularly a point of contention when discussing various creatures of many mythologies.

I don't see Aang as the representative of all avatars so much as I see him as the pinnacle of them, how they should be, and that's kind of hard to beat because he saved the world, while other avatars lived in more peaceful times where such a sacrifice wasn't necessary. Kuruk and Kyoshi, we barely know them. We had a few conversations with them total, and they could have been spiritual in other ways. Spirituality doesn't necessarily mean pacifist, I hope you know. There's a story about Zen how a great teacher cut a cat in half to prove a point to students about zen. We'd need to see a full story of their lives to have an idea of who they were.

Come on now, that's a pretty ridiculous argument with some real strains in logic. If you have to resort to evolutionary psychology to justify your annoyance with spirits being helpful you're really over-thinking it (especially because they wouldn't be subject to natural selection in the first place. The mere lack of evolutionary pressure doesn't give you any positive information or conclusions in of itself). If we're going to use that logic we might as well say none of the spirits should be able to communicate with humans either.

And I don't know why you think my use of the word spiritual was a proxy for pacifism. It's not about the use of violence in of itself (even if it was, all of the past Avatars seemed pretty cool with killing Ozai anyway), it's about the explicit way the show presented how Kyoshi and Kuruk thought about and approached problems and how that differed from Aang. We have to work off what we're given, the content is resource constrained and necessarily limited. Kyoshi and Kuruk are pretty clearly intended to be a contrast against Aang, I don't see much merit in saying that was just a snapshot of their lives, it's a very common storytelling convention to use key events to exemplify and contrast. The burden of proof you're requesting from a television show is a little absurd.
 
The fact that the swamp pulled Aang down itself and gave it visions, and the whole episode was about how any kind of divisions are illusions....yeah, the show never out and said it, but I've yet to hear an alternative that gives another plausible explanation. And even if you dismiss my view as just speculation, then the problem still remains that the spirits are acting without any kind of sense or reason. It just happens that now TLA is joined in that flaw and things like the lion turtle become whole DEM's instead of having way too obscure justifications for their own good.

Anyway, my objection was not seeing too many spirits, but the way they're portrayed. I'm just talking about them being cutesy "I just want to help you because I wuv you." creatures that don't show any of the alienness that the previous spirits of TLA had. I don't even mean they have to be menacing, just show something that acknowledges that they're more than glorified hamtaro's.

As far as physical prowess goes, it's a part of life and therefore a part of the avatar. However, that's...anything. My typing on this keyboard is a physical act in a way, but the meaningfulness of it is not in the keystrokes, but the words that are produced that I use to communicate with you. Same thing with the Avatar. The bending is just a means to an end, to understand the four cultures on an intuitive level, so as to better keep balance. And keeping balance can take the form of stopping someone physically, but the 'avatarness' of such an act comes from the meaning of the action. So it's not to say that Korra stopping those two theives would have been an unworthy aspect of the avatar, but she has consistently demonstrated she thinks it's the only aspect of it that matters. She's going to fighting rings, doing all sorts of physically demanding tasks, all in order to prove somehow she's still the avatar. I don't think she understands that the best act as the avatar that she performed was to just talk to that one guy on the bridge to offer wisdom, and we need her to learn that is the important part of the avatar.

That's a good point about 'avatarness' :p

I agree that WAS Korra's problem, but what I liked about this episode is that it showed how that's no longer the only thing holding Korra back. We even learned that the fighting ring wasn't exactly some test she was trying to put herself through just to see how far she's gotten. She was following her projection, trying to find out what it meant. Korra already knows she's not the sum of her bending, but what she's going through is something else.

This episode was more about Korra facing her trauma than actually any existencial questions about herself (although those are still there, a bit). She's physically traumatized and that trauma is the thing holding her back at the moment, which is what Katara also said. She needs to absorb it, instead of fighting it or avoiding

In fact, Katara said so herself. She can physically heal Korra back to normal, but it's her mind that will decide if she's recovered or no.

On the subject of the Swamp, which you touched upon.

The Swamp "calling" Aang was, I believe, was meant to simply imply that the Spirit World was calling through an almost "Living Force-style" power, which you refer to as the planet itself (and your theory about the Avatar Spirit being the Spirit of the World incarnate, as proposed originally by Bryke). LOK did kind of change that idea a bit, but the Swamp is still a big giant spirit/being that knows what's best for the world or itself. It could simply be a spiritual place like the Fire Nation spirit forest in The Search comics (I know your opinion of the comics, but it reinforces the notion that the Swamp is one of many special windows into the Spirit World)
 
Great episode!

Nice seeing her progress over the years.
Getting some strong Asami and Korra vibes.

Korra creating an alternate spirit that wasn't just her imagination was weird.
Especially when it can mentally? or physically? harm her.

Can't wait to see how OG Toph can help.
 
If it weren't for Korra, a lot of the small spirits would have ended up getting corrupted/enslaved by Vaatu. It's not surprising at all that the weaker spirits respect/revere Korra due to her actions and because she houses the most powerful spirit in existence (aka Raava) within her.

Like the kami of Earth's Shintoism, the spirits in A:TLA vary immensely in strength, appearance, and behavior. Some are awe-inducing gods and others steal your socks that's just how they are.
Empathy does not work like that. It's not based in reason. It's much more subtle and unconscious than that, and based off the stupidest, most irrelevant things. There are a lot of creatures in mythology that consider contractual obligations sacred and will pay back people in kind, but that's not the same thing as respect or reverence. And keep in mind that Korra does NOT have Raava in her, so she's worthless. As I said, a reasonable explanation would have been that Korra is defunct as a container, so the best way to repay the avatar in this case would be to kill her. It's not to say that option has to happen, but it's to demonstrate how something with no empathy, but a devotion to serving the avatar might react.

And keep in mind just because it's similar to Shintoism and is an influence, that does not necessarily mean it is the same thing as it. Thus far, we don't even have an indication that the spirits are respresentative of various objects, aside from I guess the panda being the guardian of that one forest.

Come on now, that's a pretty ridiculous argument with some real strains in logic. If you have to resort to evolutionary psychology to justify your annoyance with spirits being helpful you're really over-thinking it (especially because they wouldn't be subject to natural selection in the first place. The mere lack of evolutionary pressure doesn't give you any positive information or conclusions in of itself). If we're going to use that logic we might as well say none of the spirits should be able to communicate with humans either.

And I don't know why you think my use of the word spiritual was a proxy for pacifism. It's not about the use of violence in of itself (even if it was, all of the past Avatars seemed pretty cool with killing Ozai anyway), it's about the explicit way the show presented how Kyoshi and Kuruk thought about and approached problems and how that differed from Aang. We have to work off what we're given, the content is resource constrained and necessarily limited. Kyoshi and Kuruk are pretty clearly intended to be a contrast against Aang, I don't see much merit in saying that was just a snapshot of their lives, it's a very common storytelling convention to use key events to exemplify and contrast. The burden of proof you're requesting from a television show is a little absurd.

My point wasn't to include evolutionary psychology, but to point out that your arguing from a very anthropocentric position. You're projecting empathy onto creatures that you have no reason to believe would possess it just because that's what humans do. I was just using evolution to point out how absurd that position is.

Kuruk was, all in all, shown to be a failure of an avatar. He was derided for his partying and constant fighting instead of attending to his avatar duties. He might have been an awesome avatar at other points of his life, but the parts we were shown were the parts where he was stated to be in the wrong. So 'Kuruk did it' isn't an argument to be made in favor of him. We are shown a more favorable view of Kyoshi, but even she does not paint her actions shown as either good or bad, just 'what had to be done'. Again, maybe she was an awesome avatar for most of her life, but by and large, just because we are shown very selective bits of those two avatar's lives does not mean we can either pass a value judgement of them, or assume that that value judgement (were we to have it) would be a good one.

That's a good point about 'avatarness' :p

I agree that WAS Korra's problem, but what I liked about this episode is that it showed how that's no longer the only thing holding Korra back. We even learned that the fighting ring wasn't exactly some test she was trying to put herself through just to see how far she's gotten. She was following her projection, trying to find out what it meant. Korra already knows she's not the sum of her bending, but what she's going through is something else.

This episode was more about Korra facing her trauma than actually any existencial questions about herself (although those are still there, a bit). She's physically traumatized and that trauma is the thing holding her back at the moment, which is what Katara also said. She needs to absorb it, instead of fighting it or avoiding

In fact, Katara said so herself. She can physically heal Korra back to normal, but it's her mind that will decide if she's recovered or no.

On the subject of the Swamp, which you touched upon.

The Swamp "calling" Aang was, I believe, was meant to simply imply that the Spirit World was calling through an almost "Living Force-style" power, which you refer to as the planet itself (and your theory about the Avatar Spirit being the Spirit of the World incarnate, as proposed originally by Bryke). LOK did kind of change that idea a bit, but the Swamp is still a big giant spirit/being that knows what's best for the world or itself. It could simply be a spiritual place like the Fire Nation spirit forest in The Search comics (I know your opinion of the comics, but it reinforces the notion that the Swamp is one of many special windows into the Spirit World)

I would say she's in a transformative process, but I'm not sure where the transformation is leading. I think she still THINKS fighting is the answer. After all, she's following her shadow self and the first thing she expects will help resolve her issues is if she can physically beat it. But we'll see where they're going with this.

As for the rest, as you said, you know my opinion of the comics. Whatever muse was with Bryke when they wrote TLA, she has left and nearly every meddling with the finished product they've done has been for the worse. I have to tangle with them when I'm reviewing products like Korra that mess with it, but I don't take that to be canon concerning TLA alone.

For the record, I hope your right. The lesson that violence isn't the answer to everything and that Korra is strong enough to stand on her own is something that I've wanted to be a central tenet of LoK since it's inception. It's too late to save the series, but it's better late than never.

Now, I'd love to continue this conversation with all of you, but my time has been very constrained lately. Good discussions. I'll be sad when Korra ends and we'll all have to find another series to collectively talk about.
 
Pretty good episode.
Can't believe people are arguing about spirits being able to sense each other. Is that something that really breaks lore?

Anyways, it was great seeing Korra struggle to get better. Only thing that bothered me during the sequence was am I crazy or did Katara get younger? Seeing Korra imagining her avatar self was cool until either it became real at the end (which makes no sense) or Korra passed out and the fight was a dream. Toph's voice was perfect. Recognized it was her instantly. For some reason I expected her to be huge like the actor that played her in ATLA.
 
My point wasn't to include evolutionary psychology, but to point out that your arguing from a very anthropocentric position. You're projecting empathy onto creatures that you have no reason to believe would possess it just because that's what humans do. I was just using evolution to point out how absurd that position is.

Kuruk was, all in all, shown to be a failure of an avatar. He was derided for his partying and constant fighting instead of attending to his avatar duties. He might have been an awesome avatar at other points of his life, but the parts we were shown were the parts where he was stated to be in the wrong. So 'Kuruk did it' isn't an argument to be made in favor of him. We are shown a more favorable view of Kyoshi, but even she does not paint her actions shown as either good or bad, just 'what had to be done'. Again, maybe she was an awesome avatar for most of her life, but by and large, just because we are shown very selective bits of those two avatar's lives does not mean we can either pass a value judgement of them, or assume that that value judgement (were we to have it) would be a good one.

The problem is that you're replacing the way spirits are actually depicted in-universe with abstract conceptions of spirits. I understand that you don't like the way the show developed them, but Beginnings is canon whether we like it or not. The spirits are for better or worse very anthropomorphized and human-like. Could they have been different? Yes, but Korra's depiction is self-consistent.

(Side note on the evolution point, your position seemed to be, empathy is a result of evolutionary pressure, therefore a creature not subject to those pressures would not have empathy. But this does not follow logically. How evolution works tells us nothing about how a being not subject to evolution would work. There is no foundation to reason whether they would have more or less empathy.)

Regarding Avatar comparison I think I kept editing past your original response as I think we're more in agreement than not on this.

And I think we have a tendency to overemphasize Aang as being representative of all Avatars. Aang's spirituality was more because of his Air Nomad culture, not because of any Avatar specific personality trait. It's not like Kyoshi or Kuruk were particularly spiritual folks, although Roku was. There was a lot of missed potential though for a Roku-Aang type relationship with Korra/Kyoshi. Korra would have identified with her, and Kyoshi could have helped correct or at least caution Korra about the fist-first method and how it may not be the best solution. Korra eschewed the past lives thing all the way to the point of eliminating it entirely, and I think Korra had more to benefit from their counsel personal development wise than Aang did.

I originally only had the bolded present. Korra could have learned from her similarities to Kuruk/Kyoshi because they reflected on their behavior and actions. It would have helped Korra objectively think about what kind of Avatar she wanted to exemplify.
 
Pretty good episode.
Can't believe people are arguing about spirits being able to sense each other. Is that something that really breaks lore?

Anyways, it was great seeing Korra struggle to get better. Only thing that bothered me during the sequence was am I crazy or did Katara get younger? Seeing Korra imagining her avatar self was cool until either it became real at the end (which makes no sense) or Korra passed out and the fight was a dream. Toph's voice was perfect. Recognized it was her instantly. For some reason I expected her to be huge like the actor that played her in ATLA.

Yeah. Hearing her say "Beats me." with that tone gave it away instantly haha.
 
Pretty good episode.
Can't believe people are arguing about spirits being able to sense each other. Is that something that really breaks lore?

Anyways, it was great seeing Korra struggle to get better. Only thing that bothered me during the sequence was am I crazy or did Katara get younger? Seeing Korra imagining her avatar self was cool until either it became real at the end (which makes no sense) or Korra passed out and the fight was a dream. Toph's voice was perfect. Recognized it was her instantly. For some reason I expected her to be huge like the actor that played her in ATLA.

I just assumed she was bending at herself
 
The problem is that you're replacing the way spirits are actually depicted in-universe with abstract conceptions of spirits. I understand that you don't like the way the show developed them, but Beginnings is canon whether we like it or not. The spirits are for better or worse very anthropomorphized and human-like. Could they have been different? Yes, but Korra's depiction is self-consistent.

(Side note on the evolution point, your position seemed to be, empathy is a result of evolutionary pressure, therefore a creature not subject to those pressures would not have empathy. But this does not follow logically. How evolution works tells us nothing about how a being not subject to evolution would work. There is no foundation to reason whether they would have more or less empathy.)

Regarding Avatar comparison I think I kept editing past your original response as I think we're more in agreement than not on this.



I originally only had the bolded present. Korra could have learned from her similarities to Kuruk/Kyoshi because they reflected on their behavior and actions. It would have helped Korra objectively think about what kind of Avatar she wanted to exemplify.

Consistancy is only one piece of telling a good story. The other, and more important, part is meaning. I don't know what these cutsy spirits are suppose to mean in the context of Korra's world. TLA's spirits meant that there was a greater world, more machinations than humans are aware of. It made the universe feel bigger, grander than what we were shown, which made it feel more...epic, for lack of a better world. These cutsey spirits don't tell me anything except that there are cute and huggable little critters in the world, and we already have Momo and Pabu for that. I think it's telling how little thought the writers put into the spirit world when, once the gates are opened, the only inconvenience that Republic city seems to have to deal with is some trees growing in places they'd rather not.

As far as evolution goes, a being that isn't not subject to evolution.....well, for one, 'beings' don't evolve. Species do, through propagation and mutations, selection of those mutations, and then back to propagation. So, by extention, we do know how beings that don't evolve work, because that's every being. Second, it's not to say that empathy is impossible for spiritual creatures. It's just that evolution is the reason we have empathy, so if another creature is going to have it, the writers ought to provide some kind of rationale for it being there.

Lastly, I don't want Aang reduced to his nomatic beliefs. Afterall, Gyatsu, the monk that mentored him and treated him as family more than any other monk, was surrounded by dead corpses of the fire nation where his body was. Aang went out of his way to make his value of human life the focus of his dealing as the avatar and it should be treated as a philosophical point of view by itself, rather than just remnants of a culture Aang hasn't shaken off. Especially since nomatic beliefs don't really gel with the world Korra lives in. Even though now there are airbenders, they seem to have made the temples their home, rather than traveling the world.
 
Empathy does not work like that. It's not based in reason. It's much more subtle and unconscious than that, and based off the stupidest, most irrelevant things. There are a lot of creatures in mythology that consider contractual obligations sacred and will pay back people in kind, but that's not the same thing as respect or reverence. And keep in mind that Korra does NOT have Raava in her, so she's worthless. As I said, a reasonable explanation would have been that Korra is defunct as a container, so the best way to repay the avatar in this case would be to kill her. It's not to say that option has to happen, but it's to demonstrate how something with no empathy, but a devotion to serving the avatar might react.

And keep in mind just because it's similar to Shintoism and is an influence, that does not necessarily mean it is the same thing as it. Thus far, we don't even have an indication that the spirits are respresentative of various objects, aside from I guess the panda being the guardian of that one forest.

I didn't mention empathy at all and I'm not arguing that. I have no idea why you're obsessed with the idea of all the spirits wanting to kill Korra. The little spirits couldn't even harm a regular human being- let alone the avatar.

Korra still DOES have Raava within her. Otherwise, she wouldn't be able to bend all the elements. But she is merely unable to connect with Raava spiritually and enter the avatar state after her injury- that's the problem. Aang couldn't enter the avatar state after he was struck by Azula- it didn't mean he was no longer the Avatar.

Shintoism is more than just kami representing "objects"- that is a gross misinterpretation of the belief system. EVERYTHING has kami- from abstract concepts to physical places and living things.

In the Avatar world, we've seen:
Raava = Peace
Vaatu = Chaos
La = Ocean
Tui/Yue = Moon
Wan Shi Tong = Knowledge

Plus, Painted Lady and Hei Bai which guard over a river and a forest respectively.

Shintoism also describes kami that represent the pretty much the exact same concepts/physical forces.

Kami can behave in almost any way imaginable. Some of them behave/feel just like humans do. Some are incredible forces of nature while others are pathetically weak.
 
Did someone already mention that
the Avatar state Korra
was just
the spirits trying to lead her to Toph
? I mean, I found it obvious, but maybe I'm wrong.

I mean, the hints:
They push her away from Republic City.
They try to make her fight like Toph did.
They then led her to the swamp where she was.
 
I didn't mention empathy at all and I'm not arguing that. I have no idea why you're obsessed with the idea of all the spirits wanting to kill Korra. The little spirits couldn't even harm a regular human being- let alone the avatar.

Korra still DOES have Raava within her. Otherwise, she wouldn't be able to bend all the elements. But she is merely unable to connect with Raava spiritually and enter the avatar state after her injury- that's the problem. Aang couldn't enter the avatar state after he was struck by Azula- it didn't mean he was no longer the Avatar.

Shintoism is more than just kami representing "objects"- that is a gross misinterpretation of the belief system. EVERYTHING has kami- from abstract concepts to physical places and living things.

In the Avatar world, we've seen:
Raava = Peace
Vaatu = Chaos
La = Ocean
Tui/Yue = Moon
Wan Shi Tong = Knowledge

Plus, Painted Lady and Hei Bai which guard over a river and a forest respectively.

Shintoism also describes kami that represent the pretty much the exact same concepts/physical forces.

Kami can behave in almost any way imaginable. Some of them behave/feel just like humans do. Some don't think at all. Many of the most ancient religions/mythologies feature gods, spirits, etc. having the same flaws and emotions of people.

Lack of empathy does not necessarily imply killing urges, just indifference to other people as people. It's just the easiest way to portray the difference, since it's so drastic an example. My point was that there is no reason for them to really care about Korra, except either A. empathy or B. as an obligation to repay. You suggested they'd do it out of the latter, but I question why these creatures would have either. The most logical course of action is that they wouldn't care about her suffering. And even if the latter were true....

Well, let me clarify one thing first. It's not this specific incident that annoys me, but how spirits are being portrayed as a whole in LoK throughout. I want to see that alienness from TLA come back. So if they're going to have a spirit helping them, but I'd like to see something that suggests these are spirits and not people just inhabiting small cute bodies. The whole "Help out of the kindness of my heart" (which is how I see the scene to have played out) is just too anthropocentric a reaction. So, something like "Why don't you just kill yourself so you can reincarnate into a new body that will have it's connection to Raava back?" and just have Korra reject that notion, because of course she doesn't want to kill herself, but a spirit wouldn't understand. Then the Spirit shrugs and helps Korra out like it plays out in the show. It's a bit darker than LoK should be, but I'm just throwing it out as an example of how the show could go about maintaining the alienness of the spirits. Or have some spirits like that, while others being very close to humans (by which I mean have korra meet some of the alien spirits, because right now, the fact that all the spirits Aang met are a certain alien quality to them while all the spirits in Korra are humanistic just suggests a shift in writer portrayal rather than different kinds of spirits existing simultaneously).

And there should always be some sliver of alienness to them, if only to differentiate them as spirits. Because if they're just humans in a different skin...honestly, whats the point of them being spirits at all? And again, while the show has clearly been inspired by shintoism, that doesn't mean we can assume it has the same rules as a whole. Maybe only important spirits get any kind of representation, for example, while others exist pointlessly. Maybe they seek to find a thing to represent them, for whatever reason. Ultimately, you have to look at the rules Avatar itself set up alone, and it's left a clear blank in way of what spirits are. You can use shintoism as a lens to which you understand the series, because it does work. But that lens is optional. I don't have to accept it's rules as part of LoK's world building.
 
Did someone already mention that
the Avatar state Korra
was just
the spirits trying to lead her to Toph
? I mean, I found it obvious, but maybe I'm wrong.

I mean, the hints:
They push her away from Republic City.
They try to make her fight like Toph did.
They then led her to the swamp where she was.

I don't think that's consistent with the smaller spirit's hostility towards NotKorra, or with the fact that it attacked Korra when all she had to do was walk like 50 feet to see Toph.

also why are you guys still spoiler tagging stuff?
 
Lack of empathy does not necessarily imply killing urges, just indifference to other people as people. It's just the easiest way to portray the difference, since it's so drastic an example. My point was that there is no reason for them to really care about Korra, except either A. empathy or B. as an obligation to repay. You suggested they'd do it out of the latter, but I question why these creatures would have either. The most logical course of action is that they wouldn't care about her suffering. And even if the latter were true....

Well, let me clarify one thing first. It's not this specific incident that annoys me, but how spirits are being portrayed as a whole in LoK throughout. I want to see that alienness from TLA come back. So if they're going to have a spirit helping them, but I'd like to see something that suggests these are spirits and not people just inhabiting small cute bodies. The whole "Help out of the kindness of my heart" is just too anthropocentric a reaction. So, something like "Why don't you just kill yourself so you can reincarnate into a new body that will have it's connection to Raava back?" and just have Korra reject that notion, because of course she doesn't want to kill herself, but a spirit wouldn't understand. Then the Spirit shrugs and helps Korra out like it plays out in the show. It's a bit darker than LoK should be, but I'm just throwing it out as an example of how the show could go about maintaining the alienness of the spirits.

And there should always be a sliver of alienness to them, if only to differentiate them as spirits. Because if they're just humans in a different skin...honestly, whats the point of them?

You say they "should" maintain a certain alieness to them when really there isn't any particular reason for them to. In A:TLA, we never got to see Aang interact with some of the lesser/weaker spirits- just some of the powerful ones. I think the Baboon spirit from the Book One finale is the only example. Even the powerful spirits have some form of empathy as Tui and La manifested themselves physically in the first place in order to aid humanity.

The world's oldest mythologies haves gods and spirits that are anthropomorphic in nature. Greek gods are pretty much humans with super strength. I find the spirits of A:TLA and TLOK to be compelling as they draw from these ancient ideas about how the supernatural should act.

Shintoism believes that all kami are to be respected, even weak ones because kami are directly in tune with the energy of the universe and have an understanding of being that humans do not.

This is why that small spirit in The Legend of Korra knew that Korra had to go see Toph in the swamp in order to heal. The average human would not have been able to guide her in this way.

There is also the possibility that the spirit is more powerful than its appearance suggests as we know the freakin' ocean spirit is literally a fish.
 
Spoiler tagging is supposed to stop until 7 PM Central (8 pm eastern, 5 pm pacific). It's confusing with the "correct standard time" in the OP.
Send Satch to Lake Laogai
shira dropped the bomb and ran away smh.
Lol, yeah, I can't imagine Bryke confirming something like that. They don't really give away major reveals like that ahead of time. It wouldn't make sense to anyway.
Believe whatever you want.
 
You say they "should" maintain a certain alieness to them when really there isn't any particular reason for them to. In A:TLA, we never got to see Aang interact with some of the lesser/weaker spirits- just some of the powerful ones. I think the Baboon spirit from the Book One finale is the only example. Even the powerful spirits have some form of empathy as Tui and La manifested themselves physically in the first place in order to aid humanity.

The world's oldest mythologies haves gods and spirits that are anthropomorphic in nature. Greek gods are pretty much humans with super strength.

Shintoism believes that all kami are to be respected, even weak ones because kami are directly in tune with the energy of the universe and have an understanding of being that humans do not.


There is also the possibility that the spirit is more powerful than its appearance suggests as we know the freakin' ocean spirit is literally a fish.

There wasn't anything implying that spirits were necessarily powerful. Koh was said to be old, but that doesn't necessarily imply power. His ability to take faces could be very specific, with him being only dangerous specifically in the circumstance that Aang was put in. The giant wolf spirit was big, but we don't know if that's necessarily powerful. Similarly, we don't know if the panda or Painted lady spirits were exceptionally powerful. Obviously strong enough to be formidible to humans, but we don't know if that's normal, lower, or higher tier. The moon and ocean spirits are the only powerful ones we definitely know because of how the lack of their presence would literally screw up the whole world.

And as I said in my previous post, if they want to assert that spirits like the ones Aang met, and spirits like the ones Korra meets exist simultaneously, they should have some of the alien spirits appear in LoK. Right now, based on the fact that none of these spirits have appeared in LoK, even if we include the ones we saw in Wan's era, while literally all of the spirits of Aang's era had that alienness, plus the fact that LoK has retconned a great deal of the spiritual aspects of TLA, I can't reconcile the two series different portrayals the way you want me to.

This is why that small spirit in The Legend of Korra knew that Korra had to go see Toph in the swamp in order to heal. The average human would not have been able to guide her in this way.

I don't see why not. All they'd need to know is that Toph has spiritual knowledge and where she's hiding out. Hell, Korra could have stumbled upon her by coincidence in her travels if the writers wrote it that way.

Im suprised no one complained about Korra's outbursts

Her outbursts are usually without good reasoning behind them. Here, there's more of a sympathetic factor at work due to better writing, as well as the fact that she immediately apologized.
 
I agree that it was more justified and apologizing after the one at Katara made it a lot better but I still expected people to complain about it anyway.
 
Shintoism believes that all kami are to be respected, even weak ones because kami are directly in tune with the energy of the universe and have an understanding of being that humans do not.

Is there some Bryke quote I've missed or is there some other reason why we're apparently assuming that the Spirits in Avatar/Korra operate on the same rules as Shinto's kami? Also, there doesn't seem to be any cultural impetus towards respecting all spirits in TLOK. This was probably more the case in ATLA, but now we get episode subplots like Bumi trying to force a spirit to wear a sweater.

Believe whatever you want.

I've never thought Korrasami was going to happen, but I don't think that Bryke would let slip their shipping endgame either.

I agree that it was more justified and apologizing after the one at Katara made it a lot better but I still expected people to complain about it anyway.

It's almost like most people have thought-out reasons when they criticize the show.
 
I'm actually surprised they pulled Toph out so quickly. I figured they'd wait till the end, glad they didn't and she remains a somewhat re-occurring character.
 
I'm actually surprised they pulled Toph out so quickly. I figured they'd wait till the end, glad they didn't and she remains a somewhat re-occurring character.

she'll probably only be used as a wise character to help train Korra. Or help her get her confidence back, but probably training. She might disappear for a bit and then appear near the finale to fight with her daughters.
 
ED: On second thought, I think this discussion has been exhausted. I'll cut it down to the only point I don't think was previously made.

Beginnings shows that the spirits and humans have coexisted since sometime before the existence of the Avatar cycle. Let us assume their human species evolved and was not simply created by some kind of god. If they and spirits were created by some kind of god, they seem to have been created largely similar. In such a system where spirits must have predated the humans of the Avatar world (unless we're supposing the humans evolved and then spirits appeared), the evolution of humans would have been influenced by the existence of spirits. Any shared traits would be more likely to have originated in spirits and not humans since they would have predated them.
 
Good episode. The ending was a surprise, interested in where they're going with it.
I guess they'll get into shadow-Korra in the next episode, it was pretty weird when they started straight up fighting. My guess is they'll go for some kind of spirit manifestation of fear or something, or maybe they'll just cheap out and say she was going crazy.

Her outbursts are usually without good reasoning behind them. Here, there's more of a sympathetic factor at work due to better writing, as well as the fact that she immediately apologized.
She usually apologizes in the end though.
And when she does have outbursts they're mostly warranted (most of the time)
 
Very long post.

These are all very good points, actually. The part about evolution was a result of a misread, so sorry about that. It's about 12 am, and I'm tired and distracted. As I said in a previous post, I should have ended this conversation much earlier. I swear, Gaf will be the reason I fail school....Anyway, as a result, I went off on a tangent about evolution, and I completely forgot that humans existed along side humans, which opens up lots of possibilities for empathy to develop. So yeah, very good counter argument.

To be clear, I believe there should be a reason for things happening within a story, and I just don't see much of that within Korra's interaction with the spirits to be the way they are. Even if I admit that Beginnings happened and it's all done and over with, it isn't good to have all spirits act so....normal, by and large, if only for the fact that TLA is supposed to be part of the continuity as well. As Kinvara pointed out, these creatures can exist simultaneously, but the writers first have to show that they are there, because right now it doesn't feel like it. In that sense, the way LoK has handled the spirits in that scene can be improved.

And as for Aang, if your argument is that Kyoshi would have just gotten her better....true, but it's not like she talked to Aang much either. Or even ask about him to others. I concede to your point that Korra would have benefited from Kyoshi or Kuruk, but it seems a moot point considering how uninterested she was in talking to any of them.

Still, I think spirituality is a great part of being the avatar, if only because spirituality is a great part of being an air nomad, and the Avatar is meant to have a hand in each culture. And spirituality, as defined by Avatar, is about letting go of attachments and dismissing boundaries. One way or another, Korra would have to enrich herself spiritually to become the avatar, and with Aang being as spiritual as he is, he seems like the logical one to look up to, even if Kyoshi would have served her purposes better.
 
These are all very good points, actually. The part about evolution was a result of a misread, so sorry about that. It's about 12 am, and I'm tired and distracted. As I said in a previous post, I should have ended this conversation much earlier. I swear, Gaf will be the reason I fail school....Anyway, as a result, I went off on a tangent about evolution, and I completely forgot that humans existed along side humans, which opens up lots of possibilities for empathy to develop. So yeah, very good counter argument.

To be clear, I believe there should be a reason for things happening within a story, and I just don't see much of that within Korra's interaction with the spirits to be the way they are. Even if I admit that Beginnings happened and it's all done and over with, it isn't good to have all spirits act so....normal, by and large. As Kinvara pointed out, these creatures can exist simultaneously, but the writers first have to show that they are there. In that sense, the way LoK has handled the spirits in that scene can be improved.

And as for Aang, if your argument is that Kyoshi would have just gotten her better....true, but it's not like she talked to Aang much either. Or even ask about him. I concede to your point that Korra would have benefited from Kyoshi or Kuruk, but it seems a moot point considering how uninterested she was in talking to any of them.

Still, I think spirituality is a great part of being the avatar, if only because spirituality is a great part of being an air nomad, and the Avatar is meant to have a hand in each culture. And spirituality, as defined by Avatar, is about letting go of attachments and dismissing boundaries. One way or another, Korra would have to enrich herself spiritually to become the avatar, and with Aang being as spiritual as he is, he seems like the logical one to look up to, even if Kyoshi would have served her purposes better.

No I have the same problem with GAF, and not being able to let things go when I should because I want to have the last word or because I feel like my position won't be fully represented if I don't respond. Unfortunately, by the time I realized my post was mostly superfluous and edited it, I think you had already posted but I didn't notice so I didn't save you any time in the end. I got distracted by petty issues when the substantive points are largely agreed upon (all cute human-like spirits is not very mysterious or interesting), (Korra should have had more spiritual development, probably my biggest problem with the series actually), etc.
 
No I have the same problem with GAF, and not being able to let things go when I should because I want to have the last word or because I feel like my position won't be fully represented if I don't respond. Unfortunately, I only realized my post was largely superfluous after you responded so unfortunately I didn't save you any time.

It's fine. Honestly, I enjoy reading intelligent, well thought out posts, even if it's my ass they're kicking. Still, it really is best, as I do have work to do. Thanks for the great discussion.
 
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