#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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Some arguments to me from yesterday by 'moderate' 'civil' proponents of gamergate:

https://twitter.com/drewmcgrew/status/521176617394380800

https://twitter.com/kungfoo559/status/521187197718761472
They've gone full on from 'gamergate isn't against diversity' to 'diversity is bad and harmful'

Well, going by the Pastebin from yesterday, the social justice movement is mostly made from Zoe Quinn's Something Awful goon lynch mobs.

(I'm being facetious, just to be clear.)
 
See this stuff? This is what I'm taking issue with.

How renowned a psychologist are you? How many in-depth surveys have you done on what drives these people?

Unless I'm sorely mistaken on my guesses on those fronts you're largely talking out your ass about what victims of abuse should be doing.

Are you trying to assert that it would be better for them to say nothing about it? I can't really tell because you seem to be saying pretty convoluted things in order to avoid the big ugly victim blaming hole you must be aware you're skirting.

And I don't know what you were even trying to say with the anti-GG statements there? Aside from the fact that nobody who isn't a crazy person has ever said all Gamergaters should die, No someone speaking out about the abuse they're facing isn't anything like saying anything like that.

I am not a psychologist, just someone who has seen harassment of various forms happen over the years to people online and in reality.
I have not been subject to severe online harassment, so in that respect I cannot give you anecdotal info. I can however tell you that there is people that love seeing others suffer in some way shape or form for various reasons. I have experienced that in real life before, like many others undoubtedly have, and came to the conclusion that online harassment is very similar to it in many aspects (perhaps performed by the same kind of individuals?), just with the added edge of the harasser knowing they can not and will not be prosecuted for their deeds.

Quite frankly I cannot say what drives them, only that the harassment has increased in the wake of dramatically increased media coverage and backlash on social media. (I quoted AS in that respect for a reason, she has been getting more harassment than ever without even being initially involved at all)

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I was never saying victims should not speak out, in fact I said it does raise awareness, awareness that is vitally important. However, every time someone speaks out against it and the harasser is not punished/noticably punished as a result, it seems to attract more attention.

Not sure how I am saying convoluted things, I felt my statements were clear: speaking out is necessary to raise awareness, yet will inadvertently add more fuel to the fire as it does attract copycats. Be aware of this, expect it.
Speak out against it, but also attempt to find ways to solve it, not just decry it, discuss ways to solve this issue.

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I apologize for having phrased the last sentence in my post wrongly, asessing victims rightfully speaking out and mentioning idiotic overreacting statements against GG in the same sentence.
All I meant to convey was the fact that both of these factors (victims speaking out as well as defenders lashing out and sometimes and thankfully rarely getting rather vile in the face of equally if not more vile harassment) are, apologies for sounding like a broken record, fueling the trolls/phychopaths.

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Yet I quite frankly cannot stand for being accused of "borderline victim blaming" for my previous post, this reaction has been ever so common lately and is hindering discussion with paranoid accusations leveled at people that basically support your own stance.
 
Fine, I removed it. It's just so frustrating and infuriating to read about the personal experiences people have because they have an opinion about representation or respect when it comes to "non-default" people in video games. Like, how much more embarrassing and insipid can you get by getting angry over a luxury hobby like video games being criticized somewhere by a person on the Internet for its lack of equality. Are people really this bigoted and privileged that they can't handle some criticism on some blog or site or youtube video, that they have to resort to death and rape threats to push out non-default people or anyone questioning the status quo?

Yes, a significant number of people are that way.

Its not surprising. A significant number of people resorted to death threats when the status quo of Zelda games getting scores in the 90s was challenged by Gamespot eight years ago.
 
Thanks for clarifying most of your points.

One thing though. Anita particularly got roped into this whole thing because she released a Video while it was blowing up, not because she spoke out about anything.

And as to why I would call it borderline victim blaming, I just don't see the point of pointing out that hey, some people are going to up the ante or join in on harassment when it's announced that it's happening. Beside the fact that it's 100% anecdotal, the only purpose it serves is to make people more afraid to speak about their abuse.

And it's just not really something I've observed causes any more of an adverse reaction than anything else. Releasing a video, offering support for someone else facing abuse, writing an article that idiots misread.

I just don't follow the logic, and I don't think people need any more reasons to stay quiet about their abuse than there already are.
 
It's important for people, especially people in the industry, to shine a light on the abuse people are receiving so it can't be denied or swept under the rug. Victims are accused of making the threats up while having falsified tweets, emails, etc. distributed trying to discredit them further.
 
Thanks for clarifying most of your points.

One thing though. Anita particularly got roped into this whole thing because she released a Video while it was blowing up, not because she spoke out about anything.

And as to why I would call it borderline victim blaming, I just don't see the point of pointing out that hey, some people are going to up the ante or join in on harassment when it's announced that it's happening. Beside the fact that it's 100% anecdotal, the only purpose it serves is to make people more afraid to speak about their abuse.

And it's just not really something I've observed causes any more of an adverse reaction than anything else. Releasing a video, offering support for someone else facing abuse, writing an article that idiots misread.

I just don't follow the logic, and I don't think people need any more reasons to stay quiet about their abuse than there already are.

Was not aware of how AS got roped into this, I only followed this whole debacle in short bursts in consideration of my own sanity. Must've missed that.

I don't believe "feeding the trolls" (in its essence that is what's happening) to be anecdotal anymore. The effect is real and needs to be considered. The only way to counteract it is to find a real way to punish the "troll" in question, even if it's starting only through advanced blocking techniques on twitter being suggested: http://danilocampos.com/2014/07/the-least-twitter-could-do (as brought to my attention via VibratingDonkey)


No solution, but It would be a start.

This is, at best, a box of bandaids. But it arms every user with substantially more tools than they have today to control and enjoy their experience with the platform.
 
Sad times. It's like a never ending cycle now. Someone speaks up and then becomes a target. Death threats from anonymous individuals. News site reports the death threats and victim goes into hiding. They see that the death threat tactic is working and typical internet trolls will continue to do it. There's no end to this

Thing is, I think the core GG movement wants the threats to end just as much as anyone, because it's "bad PR." But they don't seem to have a way to control the trolls who are using the movement as an opportunity to get maximum publicity out of their trolling. Claiming it was unrelated to the movement hasn't worked, so now it sounds like they're trying to assemble examples of GG women being harassed, in order to counter it.

The other thing they're doing, that I think might be kind of getting lost under all the death threat news, is continuing to heavily target advertisers with write-in campaigns to get them to pull ads from any site that has dared discuss gender or diversity in gaming. Because the holiday season is so close, the movement is going to hold on tightly through Christmas, because I guess they're hoping threats against Christmas sales will get advertisers to take this more seriously.

It's not going to end anytime soon.
 
This thread is boring as all hell now, but I've got a question for the more active participants.

Is there anyone who regularly contributes to this thread who isn't a young white guy?
 
I don't believe "feeding the trolls" (in its essence that is what's happening) to be anecdotal anymore. The effect is real and needs to be considered. The only way to counteract it is to find a real way to punish the "troll" in question, even if it's starting only through advanced blocking techniques on twitter being suggested: http://danilocampos.com/2014/07/the-least-twitter-could-do (as brought to my attention via VibratingDonkey)

But what do you consider "Feeding the Trolls?"

That's traditionally been a concept involving to continue to argue or get angry at people being annoying in forum threads or whatever.

None of the things (Other than the actually pointlessly inflammatory ISIS type comments) you mentioned seem to me to fit into that idea, really.

And it certainly is anecdotal when it goes beyond someone being annoying in a forum thread towards an orchestrated, coordinated harassment campaign.
 
This thread is boring as all hell now, but I've got a question for the more active participants.

Is there anyone who regularly contributes to this thread who isn't a young white guy?

I'm not white. But I also came into this thread pretty late. Other members have mentioned being non-white or female (or both), including some with the highest post count in the thread.
 
They somehow think that these types of criticisms somehow are alike and equal.

Also, they clearly don't understand the latter criticism.

Yep, I feel like this is a huge part of it. The "killerspiele" debate is still too fresh.

I also feel like it doesn't help that Sarkeesian is (more or less) the "face" of the feminism debate.
 
unfortunately i think it's just natural for some people to act like animals when you can communicate with a minimum distance of anonymity. You'd have to scrub that anonymity to really change things.

Unfortunately, you are completely wrong. People have been posting completely vile harrassment under their actual names via Facebook and other platforms. Anonymity may certainly be one part of the puzzle, but it's definitely not the root cause.
 
I came across a video yesterday from a GGer trying to explain, calmly and rationally, why he's against diversity in gaming. I was curious what someone's reasons would be, so I took a look:

GamerGate - A Response To Diversity

"Diversity is inclusive, but inclusiveness is not inherently good or bad. This is an industry. Would slavery have been better if they also took Arabs? I don't think so; I think slavery is abhorrent, and inclusiveness in an abhorrent industry is bad."

I..really wish I hadn't.

(Is gaming an abhorrent industry...?)
 
I came across a video yesterday from a GGer trying to explain, calmly and rationally, why he's against diversity in gaming. I was curious what someone's reasons would be, so I took a look:

GamerGate - A Response To Diversity



I..really wish I hadn't.

(Is gaming is an abhorrent industry...?)

Thanks for that excerpt, because I almost gave that a view.

Gaming isn't an abhorrent industry, it's just very young still, and has a lot of growing to do both as an entertainment medium and as a place to work.
 
Thanks for that excerpt, because I almost gave that a view.

Gaming isn't an abhorrent industry, it's just very young still, and has a lot of growing to do both as an entertainment medium and as a place to work.

It was pretty clear he didn't think it was either, yet he felt that one example was enough to prove that diversity is not "inherently good or bad," and thus gaming doesn't need inclusiveness because it's a "luxury industry."
 
Yep, I feel like this is a huge part of it. The "killerspiele" debate is still too fresh.

I also feel like it doesn't help that Sarkeesian is (more or less) the "face" of the feminism debate.

Anita's like the least confrontational face I can even imagine.

I don't buy the argument of "Well we have no problem with feminist analysis, she's just so evil/angry/judgemental/corrupt/whatever about it" because she really isn't.
 
It was pretty clear he didn't think it was either, yet he felt that one example was enough to prove that diversity is not "inherently good or bad," and thus gaming doesn't need inclusiveness because it's a "luxury industry."

That's the part that helps hinder its growth, as a luxury/entertainment industry, a product that is more appealing to more people means more money. It should be a fairly self-evident concept, but...
 
It was pretty clear he didn't think it was either, yet he felt that one example was enough to prove that diversity is not "inherently good or bad," and thus gaming doesn't need inclusiveness because it's a "luxury industry."
What is a "luxury industry"? Never heard that phrase before
 
I don't buy the argument of "Well we have no problem with feminist analysis, she's just so evil/angry/judgemental/corrupt/whatever about it" because she really isn't.

That's because that argument is pretty dumb.
But you can present it pretty well. You know what I mean? You easily make a video where you just pick out one part of one of her videos that's not great or that might be a bit exaggerated and present it as "this is what she's like all the time".

That's basically what happened to me.
 
John Walker has the patience of a saint. Immediately after posting about his experience, the KiA goon squad attempts to prove that he's a liar by searching through Twitter to find whether he's had thousands of insults or only hundreds, whether many death threats or only a few, and of course to make sure if the worst accounts ever used the #GG hashtag while tweeting those specific things (because if they didn't do it at that exact moment, then they're either outliers that don't represent GG at all or false flag shill accounts). He actually replies to point out examples and says he doesn't really appreciate being called a liar, all the while being pretty diplomatic considering that he just stepped into a witch hunt against him, and the responses are predictable in their mental gymnastics: We never accused you of being a liar, you are a liar; We're just intrepid fact checkers, why would you disparage that?; We were only trying to find the tweets so we could, uh, report them on Twitter for you, yeah, that's it.


A little over a year and a half ago Walker was calling out EA and Maxis over SimCity in order to protect consumers, and getting snide responses from Arthur Gies over daring to do so. It seems that just like with Jim Sterling and Rab Florence, a consumer watchdog's usefulness as a straight shooter and bullshit detector runs out the second that they see right through you.
 
An industry that produces luxury goods. Which you could argue video games aren't. It's interesting that the Youtuber would group games with expensive cars, designer clothing, and jewelry, instead of movies, music, and books.
Huh...
That is odd. I always considered games in the same group as film and literature. It's an entertainment medium
 
Unfortunately, you are completely wrong. People have been posting completely vile harrassment under their actual names via Facebook and other platforms. Anonymity may certainly be one part of the puzzle, but it's definitely not the root cause.
Online there are no real consequences to your actions. Or at least, it is not seen as such. If you do this stuff in real life, you risk getting a punch in the face or worse.

I think it would help if people did get arrested for these threats and actually punished to show you can't get away with that behaviour.
 
But what do you consider "Feeding the Trolls?"

That's traditionally been a concept involving to continue to argue or get angry at people being annoying in forum threads or whatever.

None of the things (Other than the actually pointlessly inflammatory ISIS type comments) you mentioned seem to me to fit into that idea, really.

And it certainly is anecdotal when it goes beyond someone being annoying in a forum thread towards an orchestrated, coordinated harassment campaign.

By my definition it can be as simple as giving them attention. Obviously a case by case example, some people are more persistent than giving up after being ignored.

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Also, beware, devils advocate or maybe more of an unpopular opinion in the spirit of aforementioned: I still consider the fact that there is an orchestrated, coordinated harassment campaign to be a little bit of a silly allegation. I don't think those people are any more able/willing to support an actual conspiracy than ZQ etc were.

I keep hearing about wide spreading orchestrated harassment, yet I didn't see any damning evidence. I do not exclude my own lack of knowledge here at all, by all rights I wish you to prove me wrong here, but I just dont see it.
Maybe it's just that I don't consider five idiots in a public IRC channel as "orchestrated" or "organized hate group" or at all representative of the entirety of a movement like GG with millions of "supporters". It certainly is a bunch of idiots trying to dig up/fabricate dirt or worse, but I don't fully see how this isn't just extremism/corruption which hides under the shield of every group in some way.

Please explain it to me, honestly. Maybe I'm just being really dumb here.

(Is gaming an abhorrent industry...?)

Well giving it the same adjective he used to describe slavery certainly isn't helping his case.
 
That's because that argument is pretty dumb.
But you can present it pretty well. You know what I mean? You easily make a video where you just pick out one part of one of her videos that's not great or that might be a bit exaggerated and present it as "this is what she's like all the time".

That's basically what happened to me.

I'm probably just misinterpreting your statement then, but I don't think it's "too bad" that she's the face of the feminist argument. I think her videos aren't perfect, but nothing is. There's always going to be pedantic arseholes that use it to back up their ignorance.
 
Was not aware of how AS got roped into this, I only followed this whole debacle in short bursts in consideration of my own sanity. Must've missed that.

I don't believe "feeding the trolls" (in its essence that is what's happening) to be anecdotal anymore. The effect is real and needs to be considered. The only way to counteract it is to find a real way to punish the "troll" in question, even if it's starting only through advanced blocking techniques on twitter being suggested: http://danilocampos.com/2014/07/the-least-twitter-could-do (as brought to my attention via VibratingDonkey)


No solution, but It would be a start.
A problem with this is the assumption they are trolls looking for attention and not looking to silence. "Trolling" has become essentially "any bad stuff said on the internet" but was originally "annoying shit people on the internet said just to get a reaction" and the original solution won't work because the meaning of trolling has become so broad. This is not "for the luls." They want people talking about social issues to shut up. That won't stop by not feeding them.
 
I'm probably just misinterpreting your statement then, but I don't think it's "too bad" that she's the face of the feminist argument. I think her videos aren't perfect, but nothing is. There's always going to be pedantic arseholes that use it to back up their ignorance.

No of course no. And it doesn't even matter, even if they were perfect there would be enough people doing what they do now.
I still don't think that she is a very good "spokesperson" (I personally also don't really like her videos but I'm still glad they exist) but it probably doesn't even matter.
 
A problem with this is the assumption they are trolls looking for attention and not looking to silence. "Trolling" has become essentially "any bad stuff said on the internet" but was originally "annoying shit people said just to get a reaction" and the original solution won't work because the meaning of trolling has become so broad. This is not "for the luls." They want people talking about social issues to shut up. That won't stop by not feeding them.

As I've said elsewhere, it's not feeding the trolls that's the problem, it's that they're also being clothed and sheltered. In other words, by downplaying these actions as trolling and providing platforms for these actions to take place without repercussions, the issue is being allowed to continue and worsen.
 
A problem with this is the assumption they are trolls looking for attention and not looking to silence. "Trolling" has become essentially "any bad stuff said on the internet" but was originally "annoying shit people on the internet said just to get a reaction" and the original solution won't work because the meaning of trolling has become so broad. This is not "for the luls." They want people talking about social issues to shut up. That won't stop by not feeding them.

Fair enough, but do they really only target outspoken individuals? Is their intent really to silence them? I can still see how people are doing this for the response they're getting, just to a more psychopathic degree than 'classic' trolls. These ones seem to want to see people in fear, calling out for help, maybe they also like seeing the supporters loose composure and lash out (it happens on a daily basis, sadly).

I see this as a vile evolution of the 'classic troll' rather than an organized attempt at silencing people. But I can very much be wrong about this, I have a hard time putting myself into the state of mind of someone getting this harassment for months/years, especially after knowing that harassment happens to everyone in the public eye to some extent (prodominantly youtubers or all genders and colors all getting harassment and threats, all the time)
 
This thread is boring as all hell now, but I've got a question for the more active participants.

Is there anyone who regularly contributes to this thread who isn't a young white guy?

Im latino, I apologize if my race just ruined the screencap with connecting lines you were preparing to post.

It was pretty clear he didn't think it was either, yet he felt that one example was enough to prove that diversity is not "inherently good or bad," and thus gaming doesn't need inclusiveness because it's a "luxury industry."

This is why I like the point that Alexander made about her having factually more gamer cred than any people at GG, anybody that is against expanding audiences is against the concept of a broader, healthier more successful industry, they want it to remain stunted so it can still be this little pathetic string of sequels and copycats compared to the giant that it can be, their concept of "gaming" is too small and want it to remain that way. It all becomes very obvious when folks ultimately, after whining, harassing, making fake twitter accounts, tons of youtube videos, they need to resort to the most hypocritical comment they can make: "Hey, its just vidya games".
 
Fair enough, but do they really only target outspoken individuals? Is their intent really to silence them? I can still see how people are doing this for the response they're getting, just to a more psychopathic degree than 'classic' trolls. These ones seem to want to see people in fear, calling out for help, maybe they also like seeing the supporters loose composure and lash out (it happens on a daily basis, sadly).

I see this as a vile evolution of the 'classic troll' rather than an organized attempt at silencing people. But I can very much be wrong about this, I have a hard time putting myself into the state of mind of someone getting this harassment for months/years, especially after knowing that harassment happens to everyone in the public eye to some extent (prodominantly youtubers or all genders and colors all getting harassment and threats, all the time)

I don't understand why you're trivializing the harassment
 
I keep hearing about wide spreading orchestrated harassment, yet I didn't see any damning evidence. I do not exclude my own lack of knowledge here at all, by all rights I wish you to prove me wrong here, but I just dont see it.

It isn't an organization with a hierarchy, I'm sure, but there's a very visible effort to incite particular reactions through emotionally-loaded images and things like that.

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I've been lurking here awhile, but wish to respond to these topics...

I would like a hash tag about ethics in Journalism discussion.

But #GamerGate isn't that tag.

I was thinking something like #GameEthics or #EIJP (Ethics In Journalism, Please)

Personally, I subscribe to the RTDNA standards.

However, there are a few things in those standards that people need to realize.

The first one has to do with "doxxing" and it will sound kind of horrible to some people.

There is already a precedent for major newspapers and websites in printing or posting addresses of public figures or people seeking influence or power in a field. If websites and newspapers in New York can post maps of everyone who owns a concealed carry license, than posting the address of prominent YouTube commentators is just par for the course and isn't against journalist precedent.

HOWEVER, it is against journalist ethics and both the New York press outlet and the people who posted that information should be condemned for doing this. Although it isn't illegal to post publicly available information in public, it's just irresponsible to do so.

As for people posting threats on the internet directed at someone? That's a bit iffy right there. The internet needs more formal legislation and we will find out when THIS CASE IS DECIDED. Now, there are courts that are ridiculously out of step on this. The previous precedent was United States v. Bagdasarian and the 9th District Court of Appeals. Although that was in a direct threat case. Now, posting public information in public has no precedent as "threatening speech," no matter how much Tumblr wants it to be that way.

As for the amount of harassment that people get and rightfully complain about? The truth is that those who engage in that activity make up a distinct minority of all video game customers and using that minority as the basis for criticism of all "gamers" is irresponsible and ignorant. Many of the editorial articles that "sparked" the fire on this hashtag's communities should have been labeled more clearly as editorial content. The entire defense from those should have been "This is editorial content and the opinions expressed therein may not be the opinions of this company." That's all that needed to be said, end of story.

Problem is that, instead of addressing those in this way, many news sites just doubled down on editorial content. Editorial Content is a part of journalism, but it's not journalism as a whole. So, many of these people demanding "ethics" in journalism are really demanding "ethics in editorials" and that is freaking ridiculous. Clearly marking editorial content isn't going to prevent people from taking editorials as reporting.. but it goes a long way in providing both justification and credibility. As for those editorials "slandering?" Um. No. Slander is spoken, libel is printed.. but only if those are directed at an individual and are not opinion editorials. So, I'm not really sure why the whole "#GamerGate" thing is even still going on. There's just emotional arguments on both sides. I mean, from a legal standpoint, here's what's happening...

1. People are saying stupid things to each other in opinion editorials, private e-mails, and on Twitter. Those stupid things are being taken seriously. Until the hearings on December 1st from the Supreme Court clarify the issue, the severity of threats on individuals made anonymously or not anonymously on the internet in a court of law just depends on the court at the time. While the "fear" is real, the definition as an actual crime is variable. The publication of public information in a public (or private) forum or print media has precedent and is (in itself) NOT a crime. The publication of private information (such as work schedules, life schedules, whereabouts in transit, cell phone numbers, unlisted phone numbers, and so forth) is not criminal in itself, but it is a civil matter and therefore up for debate. In short, I think people who are victims of that kind of "doxxing" should grab a Civil Lawyer and go to town. Although they would very likely lose in a court of law at their own expense. If you post your phone number to Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Google Services like YouTube, and others in your sign up process for those services.. your phone number is now public record. (Always read the Terms and Conditions, people.) Printing that information isn't illegal, it's just TACKY and against Journalist Ethics. If you post your location on Twitter, anyone may use that (now public) information for malicious purposes. My suggestion is to not post your location on Twitter if you are concerned about that possibility. A third party posting your location is a violation and you may want to get litigious.

2. There are people demanding full disclosure on reviews and editorial content. A review is, by it's design and nature, an opinion piece or editorial content. There is no precedent or need, from an ethics standpoint, to divulge information about the process toward a review or editorial. ONLY in reporting news. So, if I know a bunch of people at Mojang and they give me a copy of Minecraft for the Vita to review, I don't have to tell you where I got that copy of Minecraft from. Now, if I'm told about an upcoming expansion to Minecraft that adds hundreds of new animal behavior to the mix, I am obligated to state that the source of the news article I write about that upcoming expansion comes from the company. I don't need to give names though. There is no legal reason for me to do so and disclosure of that information requires an interested party filing paperwork to that regard.

I strongly disagree with you. A review is a two part piece of writing, the first larger portion of a review is a recitation of facts and findings regarding measurable/observable qualities. Number of defects, quality of graphics in regards to advertised quality, whether or not advertised features are present and in working order, etc. This is not opinion, it is an assessment.

The second, and generally much smaller part, is opinion. The simple statement of whether or not it is fun and why.

We can see ready examples of how the corruption in Journalism has caused the first portion to never be covered.

-Mass Effect 3 developers spent months insisting that ME3's best ending could be achieved without multiplayer. On release it was found that multiplayer was required to achieve the best ending, yet I never came across a review that mentioned that, even though it is a major purchasing decision point for many.

Then after release, for weeks, Bioware left a sticky at the top of their board asserting the best ending could be achieved without multiplayer, even when it was demonstrated false, until one day they just let it disappear. No sites reported on this.

-ME3's infamous color endings after we were told that choices matter. What did the Journalists do? Attack us for questioning their reviews that failed to mention it.

-Reportedly, Skyrim on the PS3 wasn't playable after a certain number of hours. Reportedly none of the initial reviews mentioned that you couldn't play the game after a certain amount of time.

-Then we have Journalists like Liana K(?) stating she skews her reviews so developers don't miss their bonuses. Never mind that person or kid who buys the only game he/she can afford for a month or two based on that review, it's ok for the customer to be screwed out of money so long as her developer friends get their bonus.

If the reviewer received an all expenses paid trip with entertainment and/or then received special physical goods with significant ebay values as part of the review process, this needs to be stated right at the top of the article. The consumer needs to know if the reviewer was the recipient of gifts in the process of assessing the measurable qualities of the product. In fact, I believe that is law. We're walking a very fine line on the FTC requirements for disclosure and the Payola laws, and I strongly suspect that if/when this is placed in front of a court that it's going to be found in violation.

I say "When" because with the increasing amount of attention it is only a matter of time before the legal system starts taking a look at what is happening with "Journalism" in games. Part of the price of being a several billion dollar a year industry is that when you're doing something sketchy lawyers, ambulance chasers, politicians, and real investigative journalists start paying attention to what you're doing because breaking the story can boost their career enourmously.

This whole "Opinion" thing that the gaming journalists have been trying to push for awhile now is easily demonstrated to be untrue, and is equally easily demonstrated to be harming consumers.
 
John Walker has the patience of a saint. Immediately after posting about his experience, the KiA goon squad attempts to prove that he's a liar by searching through Twitter to find whether he's had thousands of insults or only hundreds, whether many death threats or only a few, and of course to make sure if the worst accounts ever used the #GG hashtag while tweeting those specific things (because if they didn't do it at that exact moment, then they're either outliers that don't represent GG at all or false flag shill accounts). He actually replies to point out examples and says he doesn't really appreciate being called a liar, all the while being pretty diplomatic considering that he just stepped into a witch hunt against him, and the responses are predictable in their mental gymnastics: We never accused you of being a liar, you are a liar; We're just intrepid fact checkers, why would you disparage that?; We were only trying to find the tweets so we could, uh, report them on Twitter for you, yeah, that's it.


A little over a year and a half ago Walker was calling out EA and Maxis over SimCity in order to protect consumers, and getting snide responses from Arthur Gies over daring to do so. It seems that just like with Jim Sterling and Rab Florence, a consumer watchdog's usefulness as a straight shooter and bullshit detector runs out the second that they see right through you.

He has my respect. He was one of the only people to stand by Rab when he got let go from Eurogamer.
 
Also, beware, devils advocate or maybe more of an unpopular opinion in the spirit of aforementioned: I still consider the fact that there is an orchestrated, coordinated harassment campaign to be a little bit of a silly allegation. I don't think those people are any more able/willing to support an actual conspiracy than ZQ etc were.

I keep hearing about wide spreading orchestrated harassment, yet I didn't see any damning evidence. I do not exclude my own lack of knowledge here at all, by all rights I wish you to prove me wrong here, but I just dont see it.
Maybe it's just that I don't consider five idiots in a public IRC channel as "orchestrated" or "organized hate group" or at all representative of the entirety of a movement like GG with millions of "supporters". It certainly is a bunch of idiots trying to dig up/fabricate dirt or worse, but I don't fully see how this isn't just extremism/corruption which hides under the shield of every group in some way.

Please explain it to me, honestly. Maybe I'm just being really dumb here.

You've got a few key facts extremely wrong here.

Nobody is saying that the harassment is a conspiracy. We, unlike them, actually know what that word means.

To the point of the IRC channels. It wasn't 5 people in one channel, it was several hundred over the course of a few days in one of several. And Gamergate does not have anywhere near a million supporters. Between them, they manage 30k tweets with the tag a day on average, and the way they amend it to every single tweet means they likely have a fraction of that number of members.

But what it actually is, is networks of information gathering, or misinformation fabrication. and the spread of both. Over twitter, in the 8chan board, on the Escapist, etc. It's people that run the whole gamut between misinformed to insane and violent-minded, all getting the same information. Some will use this simply to Sea-lion their way into people's twitter feeds, which is its own brand of shittiness, but many are also using this information to pick targets and apparently, in the deeper areas, to plan attacks.

Eron Gjoni, the original arsehole who sparked this whole thing, has been confirmed as hanging out in places where these people collect and advising them on actions to take. RogueStar or whoever was prominent in the channels trying to organise doxxes and information gathering for them on people.

So yes. It is a coordinated harassment campaign. It is being orchestrated at least to some extent, above and beyond what simple mob anger could do. They're able to do this because they've got ostensibly well-intentioned idiots doing a lot of the information gathering and coordination for them. The harassers are having their tracks covered by arseholes more concerned with the image problem their fucked up movement has than the wellbeing of innocent people.
 
the fire breathing dragons and lightning bolt mages though?

totes realistic
Kingdom Come doesn't have dragons or magic or anything supernatural... -_-

This thread is boring as all hell now, but I've got a question for the more active participants.

Is there anyone who regularly contributes to this thread who isn't a young white guy?
Sorry that you're bored. I for one am not male. And "young" is probably debatable in this context.

Are you more entertained now?

Im latino, I apologize if my race just ruined the screencap with connecting lines you were preparing to post.
lmao
 
John Walker has the patience of a saint. Immediately after posting about his experience, the KiA goon squad attempts to prove that he's a liar by searching through Twitter to find whether he's had thousands of insults or only hundreds, whether many death threats or only a few, and of course to make sure if the worst accounts ever used the #GG hashtag while tweeting those specific things (because if they didn't do it at that exact moment, then they're either outliers that don't represent GG at all or false flag shill accounts). He actually replies to point out examples and says he doesn't really appreciate being called a liar, all the while being pretty diplomatic considering that he just stepped into a witch hunt against him, and the responses are predictable in their mental gymnastics: We never accused you of being a liar, you are a liar; We're just intrepid fact checkers, why would you disparage that?; We were only trying to find the tweets so we could, uh, report them on Twitter for you, yeah, that's it.


A little over a year and a half ago Walker was calling out EA and Maxis over SimCity in order to protect consumers, and getting snide responses from Arthur Gies over daring to do so. It seems that just like with Jim Sterling and Rab Florence, a consumer watchdog's usefulness as a straight shooter and bullshit detector runs out the second that they see right through you.

I just don't understand why people feel the need to do this. Even if I despise almost everything a person stands for doesn't mean I think it's OK for them to be abused or threatened. And it doesn't mean i should ignore they're claims of such. Why should I? I can still oppose them while acknowledging the fact that they're, you know, human and that other people opposed to them can also do awful things. This just doesn't seem like it should be so complicated.
 
By my definition it can be as simple as giving them attention. Obviously a case by case example, some people are more persistent than giving up after being ignored.

----------
Also, beware, devils advocate or maybe more of an unpopular opinion in the spirit of aforementioned: I still consider the fact that there is an orchestrated, coordinated harassment campaign to be a little bit of a silly allegation. I don't think those people are any more able/willing to support an actual conspiracy than ZQ etc were.

I keep hearing about wide spreading orchestrated harassment, yet I didn't see any damning evidence. I do not exclude my own lack of knowledge here at all, by all rights I wish you to prove me wrong here, but I just dont see it.
Maybe it's just that I don't consider five idiots in a public IRC channel as "orchestrated" or "organized hate group" or at all representative of the entirety of a movement like GG with millions of "supporters". It certainly is a bunch of idiots trying to dig up/fabricate dirt or worse, but I don't fully see how this isn't just extremism/corruption which hides under the shield of every group in some way.

Please explain it to me, honestly. Maybe I'm just being really dumb here.



Well giving it the same adjective he used to describe slavery certainly isn't helping his case.


Gamergate doesn't have "millions of supporters" very, very far from it. 10-20 thousand active members more like it.

http://cathodedebris.tumblr.com/pos...how-popular-is-gamergate-how-many-of-them-can

Only if you count everyone that doesn't actively disassociate from it as a gamergater.
 
How so? That was far from being my intention.

It's equating this concentrated effort to silence people (This is often their stated goal, even the "Well intentioned" ones, though often supposedly by different means) through harassment, threats and abuse, to shitty youtube comments anyone of any popularity are going to get.

But you're ignoring the extreme nature of these cases, their explicit and obvious motivation, the nature of the victims, the timing, the environment, the context.

You're even in your post equating the harassment that female or other minority youtubers or other public figures receive, to the average level anyone does, which is irresponsible and misinformed at best.

Female and minority public figures will near-universally receive much higher quantities and much more extreme, directed, and hateful varieties of abuse than the average male/white/straight/otherwise "default" version of their job.

This has been backed up time and again with studies and statistics which have been posted throughout the thread.

Treating these episodes of harassment and abuse as average or normal or expected even, does minimise them, whether you mean to or not. It's hard not to become jaded, I get it, but when you stop being able to recognise changing patterns in disgusting behaviour, or to differentiate extreme cases from the norm, it becomes a serious problem.

Sorry for the longposts. They probably end up muddled in my state. Gonna sleep now probably.
 
Fair enough, but do they really only target outspoken individuals? Is their intent really to silence them? I can still see how people are doing this for the response they're getting, just to a more psychopathic degree than 'classic' trolls. These ones seem to want to see people in fear, calling out for help, maybe they also like seeing the supporters loose composure and lash out (it happens on a daily basis, sadly).

I see this as a vile evolution of the 'classic troll' rather than an organized attempt at silencing people. But I can very much be wrong about this, I have a hard time putting myself into the state of mind of someone getting this harassment for months/years, especially after knowing that harassment happens to everyone in the public eye to some extent (prodominantly youtubers or all genders and colors all getting harassment and threats, all the time)

Well. Twice when Anita Sarkeesian was to go on stage twice now, the venue was told if they let her on stage, they'd blow the place up. The intent there seems more about keeping Sarkeesian out of the spotlight than just a reaction, don't you think?

(Actually it was three times.)
 
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