#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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Jim Sterling
Member
Harassment can define many things, but the overall quality is that it's communication/interaction that continues despite one party's wishes. Criticism on a forum isn't truly harassment since they're not coming to YOU with the communication. If, however, you've made it quite clear on Twitter or another personal social network that you don't want to talk about a thing, and people continue to hit you with the topic, that can be called harassment.
The difference between what GAF here is doing and what's happening on Twitter is that, even when you make it quite plain that you've said all you have to say on an issue, it doesn't stop. Even if you go so far as to block, there will just be brand new twitter accounts with little egg avatars ready to keep it going.
For six weeks I tried to reasonably lay out why I won't support GG, and for six weeks people refused to respect my wishes and kept needling, needling, needling, until I reached the "fuck it" stage.
Neoriceisgood
Member
^ This hits the nail on the head regarding what I've been trying to say, yeah.
boogie2988
Banned
seems like a very valid opinion. I have felt that same way on this topic many times and had to hit a hard exit twice. I'm sure the third one is right around the corner. But I am a glutton for punishment (among other things) and keep coming back to this thread and that hashtag. I'm glad you're strong enough to say when enough is enough for you, Jim.
If you need to step away. I say step away. It's videogames, there are too many people so heavily invested in this they will let it and have let it consume them to the point of being harmful to their real lives.
But I applaud you for wanting to be the guy who is willing to go against the current conversation trend at the moment and taking all the abuse you've taken. Hell even on moderated forums like this, as i've seen, people get really... intense if you disagree with them and it can become a piling on thing that springboards into a freight train. But just remember, at the end of the day you're standing for something you believe in.
I don't believe in censoring discussion nor silencing people's viewpoints and i've taken the crap in this thread for telling them its not okay to just paint a bunch of people as evil and walking off. Demonising a entire group is never productive due to the actions of a vile few. I will take that side in any debate because I think all ideas of opinion deserve to be discussed. this isn't science, this isn't cold, hard facts like evolution, there are a group of people who seem to have a beef with gaming media, a group who seem to not have that beef, and a group who think group a are liars due to a few vile people poisoning the well.
So its good to have people like you out there reminding people its not really that way. As for your personal abuse? If it's threatening absolutely report it, if its on that border line, then know at least there are people who may not agree with everything you're saying ,but absolutely support your right and desire to say it.
Good luck.
Oh hey, Vox Day's in on this thing! Great company you're keeping, guys.*
(*Edit: meaning #GG in general, I don't want to derail the progress individuals may be making in this thread)
(*Edit: meaning #GG in general, I don't want to derail the progress individuals may be making in this thread)
boogie2988
Banned
thank you. thanks a LOT. that really helps. you are awesome.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I'd say it's a little more than an opinion, Jim's essentially describing mobbing which is a well-defined form of harassment.
(Even within twitter's guidelines themselves it's considered abuse when the stuff Jim describes happens: https://support.twitter.com/entries/15794 )
boogie2988
Banned
I know quite a lot about mobbing, having been a victim of it many times. Most recently this last week after a certain kotaku article
I'm saying that I see how jim has arrived at his current feelings, and I agree with the sentiment. I never meant to say it could only exclusively be an opinion. My apologies for misspeaking.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I know quite a lot about mobbing, having been a victim of it many times. Most recently this last week after a certain kotaku article
I'm saying that I see how jim has arrived at his current feelings, and I agree with the sentiment. I never meant to say it could only exclusively be an opinion. My apologies for misspeaking.
That's fine, no need to apologize, I hope your question regarding the difference between gaf /forums in general & twitter has been answered.
boogie2988
Banned
yes. People calling you shitty things indirectly is not harassment. calling someone shitty things directly via social media is harassment.
got it.
Jim Sterling
Member
See, and this is another part of why I'm shocked people seem to think not aligning with GG is some sort of hypocrisy on my part. Breitbart? Baldwin? Vox fucking Day? Why exactly would I want to throw in with that? Even in my shitheaded "shock jock" Destructoid days (that GGers keep bringing up now because they think it's new and not something I've talked about myself in detail), I can't see myself aligning with a site that has demonstrated nothing but contempt for gamers, a nutjob conspiracy theorist, and Vox fucking Day. That's to say nothing of the work I've done for the past four or five years, and how people like the aforementioned stand against it.
By the time this shit was being brought up in conjunction with Alex Jones, I knew I'd made the right decision in not backing any of it.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I'd say "shitty things" is still a bit too subjective. (as I can conclude from your previous posts for example, we have diametrically opposed reactions to things said about us.)
The part Jim said about "unwanted/unsolicited/aggressive" direct communication can be harassment.
Often politeness/not being "Shitty" is used as a shield to claim malicious behavior is not harassment, so it's generally not used (exclusively) within definitions of mobbing. (after all, how someone experiences comments is entirely subjective, the litmus test should be on the victim's discomfort rather than a vague consensus if the comments directed at them pass the standards of "Shitty enough to count".)
If I'm making sense. ^^
Moral Panic
Member
People aren't painting literally every member of Gamergate as evil or misogynists or anything else.
Wish this site had sigs so I could put that stuff in here.
We're fully aware that a lot of people have jumped onto the Gamergate train because they worry about Journalistic ethics.
The fact remains that very few if any of the incidences Gamergate has made its focus were actually eithics issues at all.
And the other fact remains that at its heart, due to its origins, attitudes, and actions, many people have characterised it as a regressive, anti-feminist, or misogynistic movement.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. At this point, if you're actively participating in Gamergate you're either an arsehole or you're misguided.
I'm going to condemn the arseholes and I'm going to bemoan the presence of those who I think are misguided. I don't think these people, who yes, probably make up the majority of the movement, are all misogynists, or harassers, or evil. The worst thing I can say for sure about them is they're probably a little too ready to join in on a mob.
It's of course a complex issue and a diverse movement. That doesn't mean that general characterisations derived from literally months of observation and analysis are automatically intellectually corrupt.
Wish this site had sigs so I could put that stuff in here.
We're fully aware that a lot of people have jumped onto the Gamergate train because they worry about Journalistic ethics.
The fact remains that very few if any of the incidences Gamergate has made its focus were actually eithics issues at all.
And the other fact remains that at its heart, due to its origins, attitudes, and actions, many people have characterised it as a regressive, anti-feminist, or misogynistic movement.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. At this point, if you're actively participating in Gamergate you're either an arsehole or you're misguided.
I'm going to condemn the arseholes and I'm going to bemoan the presence of those who I think are misguided. I don't think these people, who yes, probably make up the majority of the movement, are all misogynists, or harassers, or evil. The worst thing I can say for sure about them is they're probably a little too ready to join in on a mob.
It's of course a complex issue and a diverse movement. That doesn't mean that general characterisations derived from literally months of observation and analysis are automatically intellectually corrupt.
boogie2988
Banned
Jesus christ I just read page 207 of this thread again and I really do pray that I don't wake up tomorrow. Or maybe instead I can wake up from this nightmare. jesus christ.
EDIT: sorry for saying jesus christ. IF there was a loving and passionate god I'd be dead by now already.
EDIT: sorry for saying jesus christ. IF there was a loving and passionate god I'd be dead by now already.
Jim Sterling
Member
This is ostensibly where I'm at with all this now. I have had a good few GGers be perfectly respectful to me, but that doesn't make me want to join GG. It makes me wish these good people were backing a nicer horse.
Mr. Pointy
Member
Book a holiday. Go on a cruise or something. Take a couple of weeks off from the internet.
You'll feel better.
boogie2988
Banned
I agree with the vacation thing but I'm really needing one from this life, not just a holiday weekend. I just got back from san francisco, but reading about how I'm being purposely misleading and i'm not smart enough to understand basic concepts and how I'm being purposely obtuse to avoid responsibility, really ruins the entire experience for me. I'm back into a seriously fucked up level of depression that I wasnt even close to before the trip. EDIT: and it all comes from creating a video appealing to every person involved in this thing to try to apply some empathy to the others involved. Fucking idiotic and idealist, I know. But I had to try.
Yup. Pretty much.
I'll occasionally strike up a conversation if I see someone being kind of reasonable in someone's twitter mentions and it often just comes down to them having joined up with Gamergate because they didn't like that one Hitman bit in Anita's last video, or don't really understand feminism, or caught shit once from some tumblr kid, but who are otherwise nice people.
And I'm just like.
Dang.
You don't even know.
Sarkeesian points out misogynistic tropes in many video games. That doesn't mean all those games are misogynistic trash or even that the individual developers are bad people.
Pointing out #Gamergate is composed of numerous fuckwits circling around a misogynistic hate campaign does not mean every individual adopting the hashtag is a worthless human being. I supported stupid crap when I was young too.
Pointing out #Gamergate is composed of numerous fuckwits circling around a misogynistic hate campaign does not mean every individual adopting the hashtag is a worthless human being. I supported stupid crap when I was young too.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Y'know I'm fairly certain a lot of members reacted a bit heavy to your tweet because generally speaking a lot of us do like you a lot & know you're a great guy with his heart in the right place.
I can't speak for others, but I've followed you on youtube for ages & I've been a fan of a lot of your videos. It makes me care a lot more about you supporting a movement I genuinly consider toxic than any other person associated with it.
I'm sorry you're feeling this distraught about it though. :/
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Hey Boogie I' curious about something. What is your goal? Not GGs goal, but what is it that you specifically want to achieve and how is GG helping that cause?
And whatever it is, is it worth it? Wether or not it's a small vor a large part of GG, I think we can all agree that GG caused a lot oft misery. But what did it achieve so far? It drove people out oft the industry and some of them even out of their houses but for what?
I'm just curious what you are "fighting" for that is worth so much suffering. And suffering actually isn't an hyperbole.
Because I know you are not some asshole who just uses GG AS a cover to say vile stuff, so I'm curious why you stick with this movement.
And whatever it is, is it worth it? Wether or not it's a small vor a large part of GG, I think we can all agree that GG caused a lot oft misery. But what did it achieve so far? It drove people out oft the industry and some of them even out of their houses but for what?
I'm just curious what you are "fighting" for that is worth so much suffering. And suffering actually isn't an hyperbole.
Because I know you are not some asshole who just uses GG AS a cover to say vile stuff, so I'm curious why you stick with this movement.
boogie2988
Banned
I've stated it about 33 times in this thread but I don't mind a 34th in case people will read it.
My personal goals are
Integrity in the gaming industry
inclusiveness in the gaming industry
ridding the hobby of all unnecessary stigma surrounding it
my goals in gamergate are the same, with one added thing; I want to encourage everyone involved to apply empathy to everyone else involved and try to find a reasonable way for this to end that doesn't damage the hobby.
If somehow I get those things with either my sanity or my career intact, I'd consider that a bonus as well.
I'm sorry you feel this way.
Most of us realize you're coming from a good place and we will always support you regardless of your views on this. Just put this into perspective a bit. A lot of us are quick to tear each other apart over sides without actually thinking about what we're saying. This is a critical flaw with both sides, and I'm glad you're open to engage us both
Unfortunately, I'd say the damage has already been dealt. A lot of people, including you, are suffering from this damage.
boogie2988
Banned
Thank you. I still stand by the sentiment behind that tweet, just to be clear. Long after #gamergate is dead and buried, assholes will still be assholes and harass the living shit out of public figures they do not like. Its a sad and awful truth. I wonder who people will blame it on then when there is no hashtag to pin it on any more? My presumptions is we just go back to saying its 'gamers' as a whole.
It would seem a whole lot easier to just right here and now blame the single asshole doing it. But I guess that's too idealistic.
boogie2988
Banned
I'm sorry you feel this way.
Most of us realize you're coming from a good place and we will always support you regardless of your views on this. Just put this into perspective a bit. A lot of us are quick to tear each other apart over sides without actually thinking about what we're saying. This is a critical flaw with both sides, and I'm glad you're open to engage us both.
I'm very aware of that flaw and I have tons and tons of scratches from people on both sides of this thing. I know its suicide to want to try to be the voice of reason in the middle of this and just ask people on both sides to be kind to each other, but I am compelled to do so.
I know this is probably delusional but this is the 'perfect storm' of things that are important to me and I am absolutely compelled to be involved. I love gamers, I love inclusiveness, I love equality, I love intergrity, and I love gaming. Every time I try to walk away I simply can't.
So I come in here and I post on twitter and I get cut and cut and cut and cut and cut. Unfortunately for me I have quite the endurance for that kind of shit and I let it push me right to the edge and apparently today, well past it.
its the same level of compulsion that made me eat myself to death, to be clear. You see how well I'm handling that one. It should only make sense this compulsion to beg for empathy and kindness and to try to improve the world a little bit is stronger, and much harder for me to deny... regardless of these awful consequences.
EDIT: I should also add the two times that I did manage to successfully walk away, I've had two gamers (who happened to be female) bring me back in. The first was a proud feminist at retropalooza who said she appreciated so much the work I had done to try to calm the waters and that the movement needed a voice of reason to help guide them. The second was an email from an anonymous person (who claimed to be female but who knows) that begged me to get back involved. She said in her letter that she agreed with gamergate but also agreed with her rights as a woman and I was the only person speaking that made any sense to her. Its shit like this that keeps me coming back to both this thread and to twitter.
You may not realize this now, but you will in time: you will not be able to achieve these goals under the gamergate banner. It's been irrevocably tarnished by the actions of a "few".
Neoriceisgood
Member
I can only speak for myself here, but the "goal" isn't to blame people but to encourage in-group policing as much as possible.
Assholes & harassment take place everywhere in every group, this is because it's a cultural problem related to numerous issues that are pervasive in most layers of society. (bullying, victim-blaming, viligant behavior)
The issue is: nobody can fix this issue on a global cultural level, it's too large a scale to concievably work at, so from a logistic point of view people try to focus on whatever is dearest to their heart.
As someone with a much wider interest than just gaming I can guarantee you, similar conversations take place in tech, science, education, comics, general art, different genres of books e.g. YA novels. (There are *a lot* of discussions about how many poplular YA novels like twilight, 50 shades etc perpetuate abusive relationships for example.)
In every single of those conversations there's always the counterreaction to "oh well what if one person/one book/one character did this, it doesn't mean all of x does it."
But that's the issue, to deal with these issues we first need to understand
that on a systemic cultural level we're all participating in a system that seemingly
enables this sort of behavior.
(for clarity: I never assume I'm always the most reasonable, the most moderate, the smartest, the one with the best understanding of inclusivity or in any way the most moral person in a discussion. So I never get upset or take it personally when people assume that I'm not. )
We can cross that bridge when we come to it. I really don't think the non-gaming media will suddenly decide to blame everyone who plays video games for the actions of a few terrible people, but if they're planning to do that I really doubt GG would cause them to hesitate.
boogie2988
Banned
I realize that I'll accomplish those goals or die trying. I've been trying for 7 years without that 'banner' and when this banner is gone I'll keep going for 7 more, as long as god doesn't have the mercy to strike me dead.
boogie2988
Banned
articles claiming we're all misogynistic assholes published well before gamergate was a thing certainly wouldn't give them pause either.
No article said that.
Boogie, I implore you to re-read Leigh Alexander's article again if you still think that was her only message. She goes out of her way to say that the stereotypes and nasty people are not the only people who play video games.
It was written to tell developers that they shouldn't fear or pander to the worst aspects of the community.
Lowlander2
Banned
You know, I've had to sleep on this, but there's yet one more thing that really bothers me about the reactions to all this, and it's there "there are no "sides" and no neutral ground" rhetoric.
Now, I don't need to be told that it's a dangerous attitude to remain as neutral as possible in a situation where people's safety and livelihoods are at risk. Either you oppose these actions, or you are, at the very least, complicit in them. This does not need saying.
But the inverse implications of a statement like "there is no neutral ground" subversively claim that because I vehemently oppose GamerGate on a core level, that means that I support everyone else who shares this mindset. But not only is this not remotely true, I feel it's a dangerous attitude to be grouped in with people I genuinely do not respect and have very little love lost for just because they hate a groupthink mob as much as I do, and I don't feel like I should have to make a statement of intent to say this. There are people who, even though I do not think actions taken towards them are just, I still disrespect or, at worst, despise. It's no secret I hold Alexander in this regard, but there are yet others.
It goes beyond "I don't like these people" or "they might have been mean to me once". If there is a "two sides" argument to be made, it's that very few people against GamerGate trust anyone else to join their distrust of GamerGate using their own ethos and integrity, instead laying down ultimatums and rhetoric. For whatever reason, and I don't have the confidence in how much thought I've put into this to have the courage to make a conclusive statement about the nature of the social justice and games criticism crossover, no one single person seems to actually respect the autonomy of anyone reading their various thinkpieces and articles to trust them to make the right decisions on their own.
This is exactly why I grew very bitter with that group right at the beginning of the year. Once the initial wave of articles that led me to examine the status quo for what it was had passed, I had learned to examine what I had taken for granted with a more discerning eye, but this only backfired once I started really thinking about the approach of the more demanding articles: Allen's Open Letter to Games Criticism, a letter whose ethos summaries Re/Action's approach and, sadly, downfall, chief among them. And now we can count "No One Will Take Your Shitty Toys Away" and perhaps "Gamers Are Over" among them.
I make no claims about why this is, but it's a trend I have noticed nonetheless, and it's a big reason why I don't want to ally myself with them. Instead of trusting their readership to make the right decisions after exposing the skeletal structure of GamerGate's actions and motivations, there has been a selfish reliance on demanding support and relishing in the righteousness of their actions. And while this obviously isn't as bad as rampant doxxing and harassment, it's not like that makes their company any less frustrating to endure. And if I got the impression that just opposing GamerGate was enough to satisfy everyone else who opposed GamerGate, individual actions in such be damned, I would ultimately have nothing to complain about. But it's not the impression I get, which is why I dread to think I'm taking anyone's side when I say "Fuck fucking GamerGate."
If I am taking a side, it's the only side that really matters: mine.
Now, I don't need to be told that it's a dangerous attitude to remain as neutral as possible in a situation where people's safety and livelihoods are at risk. Either you oppose these actions, or you are, at the very least, complicit in them. This does not need saying.
But the inverse implications of a statement like "there is no neutral ground" subversively claim that because I vehemently oppose GamerGate on a core level, that means that I support everyone else who shares this mindset. But not only is this not remotely true, I feel it's a dangerous attitude to be grouped in with people I genuinely do not respect and have very little love lost for just because they hate a groupthink mob as much as I do, and I don't feel like I should have to make a statement of intent to say this. There are people who, even though I do not think actions taken towards them are just, I still disrespect or, at worst, despise. It's no secret I hold Alexander in this regard, but there are yet others.
It goes beyond "I don't like these people" or "they might have been mean to me once". If there is a "two sides" argument to be made, it's that very few people against GamerGate trust anyone else to join their distrust of GamerGate using their own ethos and integrity, instead laying down ultimatums and rhetoric. For whatever reason, and I don't have the confidence in how much thought I've put into this to have the courage to make a conclusive statement about the nature of the social justice and games criticism crossover, no one single person seems to actually respect the autonomy of anyone reading their various thinkpieces and articles to trust them to make the right decisions on their own.
This is exactly why I grew very bitter with that group right at the beginning of the year. Once the initial wave of articles that led me to examine the status quo for what it was had passed, I had learned to examine what I had taken for granted with a more discerning eye, but this only backfired once I started really thinking about the approach of the more demanding articles: Allen's Open Letter to Games Criticism, a letter whose ethos summaries Re/Action's approach and, sadly, downfall, chief among them. And now we can count "No One Will Take Your Shitty Toys Away" and perhaps "Gamers Are Over" among them.
I make no claims about why this is, but it's a trend I have noticed nonetheless, and it's a big reason why I don't want to ally myself with them. Instead of trusting their readership to make the right decisions after exposing the skeletal structure of GamerGate's actions and motivations, there has been a selfish reliance on demanding support and relishing in the righteousness of their actions. And while this obviously isn't as bad as rampant doxxing and harassment, it's not like that makes their company any less frustrating to endure. And if I got the impression that just opposing GamerGate was enough to satisfy everyone else who opposed GamerGate, individual actions in such be damned, I would ultimately have nothing to complain about. But it's not the impression I get, which is why I dread to think I'm taking anyone's side when I say "Fuck fucking GamerGate."
If I am taking a side, it's the only side that really matters: mine.
boogie2988
Banned
Damage has already been done.
Every prop for gamergate is doing damage.
No-one who is anti-gamergate is anti-integrity or inclusiveness. The principal victims of this mess have been those that support inclusive and alternative approaches to the medium.
Stepping away from gamergate would only serve to bolster your personal goals.
Neoriceisgood
Member
o.k.
Is this "explain/show our stance" day? I'd actually be curious to hear more about why people who are "against" GG are ...anti-GG. Curious to see how much overlap there'll be.
boogie2988
Banned
I can obviously see why you would feel that way, but I hope that you can see that if I step away from gamergate its not going anywhere. If I can serve as a voice of reason in the middle of it, I'd be really stupid to not try to do that. Someone should. No one else seems to be willing.
The thing is, Gamergate has absolutely created an environment favourable for this kind of behaviour. It's providing them motivation and unwitting manpower when it comes to selecting targets.
I understand that you don't want to see "Gamers" generalised and maligned. But Gamergate represents a tiny fraction of gamers. It's not defending them from attack, or from influence by corrupt gaming press. It's lashing out at imagined enemies or at real people for imagined crimes.
The blame is not falling on Gamergate without basis, no matter what you think. It is not a coincidence that the highest concentration and some of the most extreme harassment of prominent feminists in the industry possibly ever is accompanying Gamergate.
There's no separating it from its clear origins and the effects it is having on the industry. And if Gamergate's not to blame then what the hell is?
Intheflorsh
Banned
This is really disturbing to read. If you're stressed out to the point where you're entertaining suicidal thoughts, it's time to step away from the computer and talk to a therapist or someone you trust.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
But how can you even hope to achieve those goals with a movement known for misogyny? If anything, GG reinforces the stigma of the lonely basement dwelling nerd.
Most writers at best ignore the movement or at worst are getting harrased by GG supporters, (See Walker, Schreier etc.) so I fail to see how any oft your goals are helped by GG.
Leigh Alexander has updated her blog with recent work and mentions she is joining the guardian's tech podcast so if GGers though t they were going to harass her into silence they are having the opposite effect and she is getting featured in more diverse places so they are probably helping her more than hindering.
boogie2988
Banned
I want to be very clear. I am not now nor will I ever again be suicidal. I just wish I was dead. I've never been the type of person who was capable of doing anything about it, other than giving into his compulsive eating disorder.
I'd never be willing to take my own life, I'm just finally at a point that I wish one of the many people who issue death threats to me in a week would finally have the balls to step up and follow through for fucks sakes.
We're agreeing. Leigh Alexander's article did not condemn everyone who plays video games. Gonna quote from it:
This is her saying in no uncertain terms that the market for video games is diverse. There are bad elements out there, but they don't have to define the audience for an entire medium.
You claim to have read 200 pages of this thread, yet you repeat this completely incorrect statement that has been debunked again and again and again.
boogie, you are not defending gamers. You are not mediating anything. You are standing with a crowd that literally wants to destroy and silence the opposition, which somehow are women and people voicing their opinion or simply existing.
You are willingly supporting a movement that has resulted in:
- Zoe Quinn being threatened to the point of having to leave her home for months
- The worst harassment that Sarkeesian has seen in ages to the point of having to leave her home for fear of her life. And she's the person who had a freaking game made about punching her face because she dared to make Youtube videos on women in games.
- Brianna Wu, a self-made entrepreneur with her own video game company being threatened to the point of having to leave her home
- Jenna Frank leaving the industry and culture because of harassment
- Mattie Brice leaving the industry and culture because of harassment
- Lana Polansky leaving the industry and culture because of harassment
- Katherine Cross having to go dark for a week and suffering physical ailments because of making a mild analytical article on Gamergate.
- Women in the Escapist article having to have their names be anonymous for fear of being terrorized
- Tons of people having to leave the industry and not wishing to start a carreer in video games because of this movement
You are not helping. You have to take a stand. You cannot condone these people and you cannot help excuse their behavior by trying to defend them.
Please. Take a stand. Denounce Gamergate. Stop supporting this toxic gamer culture and the spoiled bigots in it PHYSICALLY and PSYCHOLOGICALLY HARMING people simply because they exist or identify as a woman.
- Status