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[Neoriceisgood]

I can obviously see why you would feel that way, but I hope that you can see that if I step away from gamergate its not going anywhere. If I can serve as a voice of reason in the middle of it, I'd be really stupid to not try to do that. Someone should. No one else seems to be willing.

I'm just wondering, but don't you think it'd be easier to start a new movement rather than trying to redirect a fairly messy and loaded train onto a new track when there's only one person pushing?

When I saw you talk to Jim Sterling in this thread earlier, it's fairly obvious the two of you agree on a ton of things, the point of divergence seems to literally be the validity of #GG. (and from what I can understand by your posts, #GG isn't even going anywhere unless you put a ton of muscle underneath it. So it's not like the effort of trying to take a step back and rethink your strategy would simply be a bad idea due to percieved effort.)

 

[boogie2988]

But how can you even hope to achieve those goals with a movement known for misogyny? If anything, GG reinforces the stigma of the lonely basement dwelling nerd.
Most writers at best ignore the movement or at worst are getting harrased by GG supporters, (See Walker, Schreier etc.) so I fail to see how any oft your goals are helped by GG.

There have already been articles published, including codes of ethics, that have been published because of gamergate. It has generated a long time coming discussion about ethics in the industry and enlightened the casual gamer of this kind of shit. Some have chosen to question youtubers. Some have chosen to question the companies that make their games. Some have chosen to question the gaming journals. But whats important is many gamers have chosen to apply critical thinking, and that's a good thing. Even if they arrive at "nothing to see here" at least they used critical thinking.

I also think you greatly overestimate the number of people who think GG = misogony. In the neogaf echo chamber it is unanimous. Outside of here, though, it absolutely does not float. The majority of the gamers I have talked to either in person or on the internet either reject that concept outright or havent even heard it mentioned.

 

[boogie2988]

You claim to have read 200 pages of this thread, yet you repeat this completely incorrect statement that has been debunked again and again and again.

boogie, you are not defending gamers. You are not mediating anything. You are standing with a crowd that literally wants to destroy and silence the opposition, which somehow are women and people voicing their opinion or simply existing.

You are willingly supporting a movement that has resulted in:

1. Zoe Quinn being threatened to the point of having to leave her home for months
2. The worst harassment that Sarkeesian has seen in ages to the point of having to leave her home for fear of her life. And she's the person who had a freaking game made about punching her face because she dared to make Youtube videos on women in games.
3. Brianna Wu, a self-made entrepreneur with her own video game company being threatened to the point of having to leave her home
4. Jenna Frank leaving the industry and culture because of harassment
5. Mattie Brice leaving the industry and culture because of harassment
6. Lana Polansky leaving the industry and culture because of harassment
7. Katherine Cross having to go dark for a week and suffering physical ailments because of making a mild analytical article on Gamergate.
8. Women in the Escapist article having to have their names be anonymous for fear of being terrorized
9. Tons of people having to leave the industry and not wishing to start a carreer in video games because of this movement

And who knows what else that we haven't heard about.

You are not helping. You have to take a stand. You cannot condone these people and you cannot help excuse their behavior by trying to defend them.

Please. Take a stand. Denounce Gamergate. Stop supporting this toxic gamer culture and the spoiled bigots in it PHYSICALLY and PSYCHOLOGICALLY HARMING people simply because they exist or identify as a woman.

your first false assumption is that I'm supporting the movement, rather than supporting a fraction of the movement that aligns with my personal philosophy.

The rest of that I didn't read, because it seems inapplicable once you understand that basic concept.

 

[Lime]

This is seriously the most simple and easiest delineation of Gamergate that I've seen (MHwilliams posted it):

That orange square is physically and psychologically harming people and worsening the culture and industry around your video games.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I also think you greatly overestimate the number of people who think GG = misogony. In the neogaf echo chamber it is unanimous. Outside of here, though, it absolutely does not float. The majority of the gamers I have talked to either in person or on the internet either reject that concept outright or havent even heard it mentioned.

Just to give another viewpoint on this:

I have a quite a few gaming friends who don't post on neogaf who see #GG as extremely misogynistic, due to this they're absolutely unwilling to discuss it in public at all as they're extremely afraid of harassment bombs.

I talk about #GG exclusively on neogaf and in private conversations because I'm prone to anxiety, so I don't wish to bring up the subject on an unsafe platform like twitter, as do many of my friends.

 

[boogie2988]

You claim to have read 200 pages of this thread, yet you repeat this completely incorrect statement that has been debunked again and again and again.

boogie, you are not defending gamers. You are not mediating anything. You are standing with a crowd that literally wants to destroy and silence the opposition, which somehow are women and people voicing their opinion or simply existing.

You are willingly supporting a movement that has resulted in:

1. Zoe Quinn being threatened to the point of having to leave her home for months
2. The worst harassment that Sarkeesian has seen in ages to the point of having to leave her home for fear of her life. And she's the person who had a freaking game made about punching her face because she dared to make Youtube videos on women in games.
3. Brianna Wu, a self-made entrepreneur with her own video game company being threatened to the point of having to leave her home
4. Jenna Frank leaving the industry and culture because of harassment
5. Mattie Brice leaving the industry and culture because of harassment
6. Lana Polansky leaving the industry and culture because of harassment
7. Katherine Cross having to go dark for a week and suffering physical ailments because of making a mild analytical article on Gamergate.
8. Women in the Escapist article having to have their names be anonymous for fear of being terrorized
9. Tons of people having to leave the industry and not wishing to start a carreer in video games because of this movement

And who knows what else that we haven't heard about.

You are not helping. You have to take a stand. You cannot condone these people and you cannot help excuse their behavior by trying to defend them.

Please. Take a stand. Denounce Gamergate. Stop supporting this toxic gamer culture and the spoiled bigots in it PHYSICALLY and PSYCHOLOGICALLY HARMING people simply because they exist or identify as a woman.

Changed my mind. Read the rest of your deal and now I'm going to give you a list (though I don't know how to make lists here so whatever)

You're standing against that movement and because of that you are standing with people who have
- doxxed me
- made my wife feel uncomfortable in our home
- made my roomate choose to purchase a gun

we are clearly both terrible monsters.

 

[bishopcruz]

articles claiming we're all misogynistic assholes published well before gamergate was a thing certainly wouldn't give them pause either.

And that was from enthusiast and industry press.

Anyway Boogie, do whatever you need to do to keep yourself healthy. I do appreciate you speaking towards moderation, as I very much do think that so much of this comes from people seeing the other "side" as either cartoonish villains or misinformed ignoramuses.

 

[The Technomancer]

Just to give another viewpoint on this:

I have a quite a few gaming friends who don't post on neogaf who see #GG as extremely misogynistic, due to this they're absolutely unwilling to discuss it in public at all as they're extremely afraid of harassment bombs.

My Facebook frirnds who have discussed it, none of whom I believe post on any message boards, also view the movement as misogynistic

 

[Lime]

your first false assumption is that I'm supporting the movement, rather than supporting a fraction of the movement that aligns with my personal philosophy.

The rest of that I didn't read, because it seems inapplicable once you understand that basic concept.

Boogie, the fraction you are supporting implicitly condones the movement in itself. By saying you only support parts of Gamergate you legitimize the movement in itself. You cannot divorce and separate the bad elements from the good elements. Every terrible and heinous thing that has happened is being done in the name of Gamergate. By supporting and defending people within it, you unfortunately legitimize the movement itself.

I know this is not what you want. But you have to listen to us and understand that when we tell you to that you are making it worse by defending the people within it, you defend the movement in itself. This is what we are telling you. Please. Stop and denounce Gamergate.

 

[SwissLion]

You know, I've had to sleep on this, but there's yet one more thing that really bothers me about the reactions to all this, and it's there "there are no "sides" and no neutral ground" rhetoric.

Now, I don't need to be told that it's a dangerous attitude to remain as neutral as possible in a situation where people's safety and livelihoods are at risk. Either you oppose these actions, or you are, at the very least, complicit in them. This does not need saying.

But the inverse implications of a statement like "there is no neutral ground" subversively claim that because I vehemently oppose GamerGate on a core level, that means that I support everyone else who shares this mindset.

-snoop-

I make no claims about why this is, but it's a trend I have noticed nonetheless, and it's a big reason why I don't want to ally myself with them. Instead of trusting their readership to make the right decisions after exposing the skeletal structure of GamerGate's actions and motivations, there has been a selfish reliance on demanding support and relishing in the righteousness of their actions. And while this obviously isn't as bad as rampant doxxing and harassment, it's not like that makes their company any less frustrating to endure. And if I got the impression that just opposing GamerGate was enough to satisfy everyone else who opposed GamerGate, individual actions in such be damned, I would ultimately have nothing to complain about. But it's not the impression I get, which is why I dread to think I'm taking anyone's side when I say "Fuck fucking GamerGate."

If I am taking a side, it's the only side that really matters: mine.

I'd be interested in hearing where you got this impression from, because to me, a big part of the "There are not two sides" argument is the fact that while Gamergate is a discernible, somewhat unified movement, those who oppose it most certainly aren't.

You'll see a lot of Gamergators refer to "Anti-GG" as some kind of entity planning something, or as being behind actions, which is patently ridiculous. #Anti-GG isn't a thing, I checked!

The only support you might be offering anyone is GG's targets.

 

[boogie2988]

And that was from enthusiast and industry press.

Anyway Boogie, do whatever you need to do to keep yourself healthy. I do appreciate you speaking towards moderation, as I very much do think that so much of this comes from people seeing the other "side" as either cartoonish villains or misinformed ignoramuses.

this. a million times this. please just read this every time you think about telling me how wrong I am, people. this guy gets it.

 

[Lalalandia]

Note: the embargo for media that received The Evil Within from Bethesda is on October 14th, the day of release. As Bethesda declined to send us a review copy of the game (presumably due to the score we gave Wolfenstein: The New Order) we bought our own copy. As such said embargo does not apply, hence why the review is live now.

(italics in orig. bolding added for emphasis)

Not even sure if I should go with this here but is this something other journos have experienced with Bethesda? I've heard stories on podcasts of them being incredibly thin skinned with criticism of the Elder Scrolls series faults (technical or gameplay) but if they're starting down this old 'print scores we agree with or no code for you' publisher road they need calling out. If GG were about ethics it's stuff like this and YT 'brand deals' that would be the centre of their campaign.

 

[boogie2988]

My Facebook frirnds who have discussed it, none of whom I believe post on any message boards, also view the movement as misogynistic

I would imagine this has a lot of to do with the company we keep. My gaming community is absurdly diverse. We have trangendered gamers. we have homosexual gamers. we have female gamers. we have gamers of different colors and nationality. we have gamers with disabilities.

The majority of these folks cannot and will not accept that they're somehow hating on themselves. It seems pretty logical why they don't agree.

I don't know what your gaming community is comprised of, but mine is comprised of diverse gamers who cannot accept that they're harassing themselves.

 

[freddy]

Some Gamergate people are claiming to have tracked down the person responsible for the threats to Anita Sarkeesian.

https://twitter.com/sanc/status/521206513130799105

Read down the whole conversation for the evidence.

 

[tonysidaway]

In other words, your answer is that you don't actually have proof. Got it.

http://wondermark.com/1k62/

 

[boogie2988]

Boogie, the fraction you are supporting implicitly condones the movement in itself. By saying you only support parts of Gamergate you legitimize the movement in itself. You cannot divorce and separate the bad elements from the good elements. Every terrible and heinous thing that has happened is being done in the name of Gamergate. By supporting and defending people within it, you unfortunately legitimize the movement itself.

I know this is not what you want. But you have to listen to us and understand that when we tell you to that you are making it worse by defending the people within it, you defend the movement in itself. This is what we are telling you. Please. Stop and denounce Gamergate.

Lime, we'll continue to have to disagree on this. I still respect your opinions but I'll not be denouncing the movement as a whole because I do not want to harm the majority of which who are perfectly happy, normal, well adjusted men and women who are doing no wrong. Sorry.

I will however continue to denounce the assholes, just like I did an hour ago:
http://boogie2988.tumblr.com/post/99898851778/lets-make-something-very-clear-about-gamergate

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I would imagine this has a lot of to do with the company we keep. My gaming community is absurdly diverse. We have trangendered gamers. we have homosexual gamers. we have female gamers. we have gamers of different colors and nationality. we have gamers with disabilities.

The majority of these folks cannot and will not accept that they're somehow hating on themselves. It seems pretty logical why they don't agree.

I don't know what your gaming community is comprised of, but mine is comprised of diverse gamers who cannot accept that they're harassing themselves.

I don't know your friends, but I assume you realise internalized-hatred is a well documented thing?

Not being able to accept that you're capable of participating in your own oppression != not participating in your own oppression.

 

[boogie2988]

Jesus christ I'm exhausted. can we all just agree to not talk about me or respond to my previous statements for like 6 hours so I can return to some level of sanity? Because otherwise I'm compelled to stay here and continue to defend myself.

 

[Lime]

Since the both sides argument is coming up again, I have to post this:

#GamerGate and the Golden Mean Fallacy

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.”

- Desmond Tutu

#GamerGate, a movement about journalistic ethics spawned from a harassment campaign, championed by neoconservative pundits, and planned primarily by members of 4chan (and 8chan, once 4chan got sick of them), has been going on for several tortured months now.

I’m not about to talk about the specifics of GG, though; take a look at this primer for a relatively recent summary if you need a refresher. I’m not even going to talk about the harassers, trolls, and channers, at least not directly.

I’d like to address a behavior that’s rapidly becoming my least favorite thing to see, and that’s the “both sides” position.

You’re probably familiar with this position from classic arguments like “is misandry a thing” and “boy we sure have killed a lot of brown people abroad.” It’s where a “moderate” — usually a person with gender and race privilege, but not always — bemoans the behavior of ‘both sides’ of a disproportionate argument, usually one that involves legitimate, sustained mistreatment of one side by the other.

The Both Sideser is tired of seeing people argue. The Both Sideser doesn’t want to hear about this any more, and wishes everybody would come to some kind of perfectly balanced compromise and be quiet. The Both Sideser can see that everybody has valid points, and knows that there are some people who have caused some real harm, but really people are just looking for reasons to be upset.

The Both Sideser is an avatar of what rhetoricians (one of which, to disclaim, I am not) call the Golden Mean Fallacy, also known as the Argument to Moderation. By using it, someone with a vested interest in a harmful status quo can appear ‘moderate’ by positioning harassers and and people fighting harassment on the opposite sides of an imaginary spectrum, suggesting that somehow the ideal lies in the middle.

This argument is used often by GamerGate sympathizers, along with a healthy dose of Tu Quoque (aka the “NO U” argument) to make it seem like the “Anti-GGers” commit just as much harassment as GamerGate has.

This is patently false. There is ample evidence that #GamerGate was created in an environment of harassment, from the tag’s origins to the living documents of their “operations”. Anyone mentioning the hashtag critically will be inundated with insults, dismissal, and demands for proof.

So far, several women have been driven from their homes due to death threats, all of whom I have personally met and one of whom I know personally. All of them have been accused of ‘false flagging’, faking their harassment. They didn’t. Many more of my friends have been harassed to a lesser extent, and I can still recall the chill that ran through my body upon seeing my real, full name in the #burgersandfries IRC chatroom from which 4chan planned Zoe Quinn’s harassment. The fact that I wasn’t targeted is solely the result of a lack of prominence that will go away if I reach success as a dev.

Have prominent GamerGaters been harassed? As I understand it, yes. Have any received threats so credible that they left their homes? Absolutely not. We’d know; it’d be paraded in our faces constantly, just like every possibly anti-GG burner account that says something mean.

But there’s another difference here, and it’s vital.

Possibly the worst aspect of Both Sidesing is the presumption that “Anti-GG” is some kind of organized movement — that being harassed or speaking out against harassment automatically associates you with everyone else doing so.

GamerGate is not an official entity, but it IS an existing collective. There are no membership lists, no appointed leaders, and no expulsion process. Anyone can set goals, anyone can promote materials. This gives GG a tremendous amount of flexibility and has allowed it to bring together a lot of people quickly and dodge a lot of potential liability issues. But to any rational person, that should be a double-edged sword: it means that the group cannot disavow membership of harassers.

Either GamerGate can be a collectivist “people’s movement” that shields harassers, or it can be an organization with clear goals, bylines, leadership, and the ability to tell someone to get the hell out.

In contrast, “anti-GamerGate” is not a movement. It’s a stance. Someone who literally hates video games can be anti-GG (and probably is, unless it’s Milo). Anti-GG doesn’t have manifestos or operations or chatrooms, it’s a just a description applied to anyone who says “Hey, this is fucked up.” If you live somewhere that’s Crip or Blood territory, you don’t say that there’s a third “no-colors” gang. That’s just people who aren’t in a gang.

So when I say that harassment sucks and I’m sick of Gaters doing it, some concern troll showing me screenshots of randos being assholes to GamerGaters is totally irrelevant. Those aren’t my people. I don’t know them. Leave me and my friends alone.

And for fuck’s sake, harassment OF GamerGate isn’t nearly the problem that harassment FROM GamerGate is. Don’t “Both Sides” me, bro. It’s bullshit.

http://inurashii.tumblr.com/post/99751399160/gamergate-and-the-golden-mean-fallacy

 

[boogie2988]

I don't know your friends, but I assume you realise internalized-hatred is a well documented thing?

Not being able to accept that you're capable of participating in your own oppression != not participating in your own oppression.

so the women in my gaming group are self-hating women? neato. I guess we'll have to choose to disagree with that too.

 

[Lowlander2]

o.k.

Is this "explain/show our stance" day? I'd actually be curious to hear more about why people who are "against" GG are ...anti-GG. Curious to see how much overlap there'll be.

I would hope that I would have made compelling cases to that idea already, but I realise that I would be a complete hypocrite just doing that. Asking people to truly commit to the idea and demonstrate they are truly against GamerGate instead of just taking a waffly "we are against harassment" mentality is, as far as I'm concerned, natural skepticism.

But as for why I'm against GamerGate, I'm not sure what to tell you that you haven't been told already. GamerGate is literally a mob; it's a banner for which people group themselves under and subconsciously ally themselves with any aggressors who take virulent actions in their name, without having any accountability for their actions. As such, it's a movement without a leader or a true purpose, but because of its supposed malleability, it acts as a perfect security blanket for everyone involved and allows them to avoid questioning the culture in which they indulge themselves, instead allowing them to hold everyone else accountable.

It's about the greatest form of mob mentality in existence in gaming, and everyone involved in GamerGate is demonstrating that, at best, they don't have the mental capacity to fight for what they consider to be ethics on their own terms, and at worse, they are complicit in the rampant harassment of various figures relating to feminism and social justice in the games industry because they are have neither the autonomy to leave the movement behind and avoid the toxic connotations it now has or the bravery to call it out.

Also they're using the suffix "-Gate" as if this is a landmark step forward for journalism and politics as Watergate was. You know, the main problem of GamerGate.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Jesus christ I'm exhausted. can we all just agree to not talk about me or respond to my previous statements for like 6 hours so I can return to some level of sanity? Because otherwise I'm compelled to stay here and continue to defend myself.

That's probably for the best. It doesn't go anywhere and depresses me.

 

[Lime]

Changed my mind. Read the rest of your deal and now I'm going to give you a list (though I don't know how to make lists here so whatever)

You're standing against that movement and because of that you are standing with people who have
- doxxed me
- made my wife feel uncomfortable in our home
- made my roomate choose to purchase a gun

we are clearly both terrible monsters.

I see you edited your post, so let me just reply and tell you that I am super sad and angry that anyone would ever do such thing, especially in the name of some vague idea of justice. This is heinous and misguided and should be condemned on all fronts by everyone. Refer to my post above about the Tu Quoque argument.

Jesus christ I'm exhausted. can we all just agree to not talk about me or respond to my previous statements for like 6 hours so I can return to some level of sanity? Because otherwise I'm compelled to stay here and continue to defend myself.

Boogie, I want you to know that you are perfectly fine and nobody hates you. You are a good person with the best intentions and it's great to see you have a huge heart and wishing for the best for everyone. Nobody has a problem with you. You don't have to defend yourself. No one is attacking or desires to attack you.

What is happening in this thread is an attempt to tell you about the implications of defending Gamergate. We are trying to inform you that it is problematic to be associated with Gamergate. That is not an attack. That is not you having to defend yourself. That is telling you about our and others experiences and how it is hurting us.

And the good ones you are choosing to defend should be told likewise - that they are also being part of something despicable and heinous in nature. You have the power to help them and dissociate themselves from being part of something causing harm to other people.

But before doing all that and before even engaging this thread, make sure that you are healthy. Make sure you provide an oxygen mask for yourself before helping others. You know what I'm saying? If it is harming you, you have to exit the topic and take care of yourself. Okay?

 

[Corpekata]

Some Gamergate people are claiming to have tracked down the person responsible for the threats to Anita Sarkeesian.

https://twitter.com/sanc/status/521206513130799105

Read down the whole conversation for the evidence.

I actually had been to that weirdo's website when I saw him spamming. Didn't know it was the death threat guy, just thought it was a random weirdo. Like everything but the Sarkeesian articles were in Portugese.

 

[pslong009]

Thank you. I still stand by the sentiment behind that tweet, just to be clear. Long after #gamergate is dead and buried, assholes will still be assholes and harass the living shit out of public figures they do not like. Its a sad and awful truth. I wonder who people will blame it on then when there is no hashtag to pin it on any more? My presumptions is we just go back to saying its 'gamers' as a whole.

It would seem a whole lot easier to just right here and now blame the single asshole doing it. But I guess that's too idealistic.

Yes, you're right, there are always going to be assholes out there. What we can do is try to minimize and negate those assholes in all aspects of our culture. As Leigh Alexander said, "When you decline to create or to curate a culture in your spaces, you’re responsible for what spawns in the vacuum. That’s what’s been happening to games." We haven't been curating our spaces very well.

Before I dive into that, quick sidenote - some posters keep bring up soccer fans as a possible analogue, that if someone said "soccer fans are racist assholes", that other soccer fans would be offended at being grouped in with them. I'm a soccer fan - I won't deny that there are vocal racists who are also soccer fans, and that there are contingents even in the US of groups of fans who might not be racists, but are definitely violent assholes. However, those groups are widely condemned by other fans, by the teams they support, and by the leagues in which the teams play. Fans get banned from stadiums for months, years, or even life for such behavior. I personally have gotten someone kicked out of a soccer stadium for chanting racist stuff at Caribbean players. That vile behavior is being addressed, and as such, the great behavior such as this, or this gets highlighted instead.

In terms of gaming, we aren't doing a good job of policing our numbers. Yes, the worst harassment in this particular case is done by a few, but general harassment is casually accepted by the gaming community. This has gone on for a long time now. Console wars, from Nintendo / Genesis to today. The dismissal of people who play certain types of games as "non-gamers", and the bullshit argument that was "hardcore vs casual". Dismissing games from Nintendo as "kiddy" and people who played the Wii as "non-gamers". Harassing people in multiplayer games because you beat them. Harassing people in multiplayer games because you didn't beat them. Harassing people on your team because they didn't what you thought they should have done. Harassing people on your team because they did what you thought they should have done, but you were wrong. Harassing reviewers because they gave a game 8.8 / 10 (Twilight Princess), or 8/10 (Uncharted 3), or because the reviewer is Tom Chick.

And we haven't even started on being a woman playing or making or writing about games.

Like it or not, this is part of our community and there hasn't been enough done to condemn the bad acts. And it has happened frequently enough and over a large enough period of time that we can't say "oh, it's just a couple of bad apples". It's a not insignificant part of the gaming community. Yes, there are some absolutely wonderful aspects of the gaming community. But there are also some absolutely vile aspects as well, and the reaction to those aspects has not been forceful enough. If you want people to not blame 'gamers' for this terrible behavior and to start highlighting the good stuff, we need to start going out of our way to condemn the bad behavior and start excising it from our community.

To me, #GamerGate has become the embodiment of the bad part of our community, the part that lashes out at people for not liking the same things they like, the part that harasses people for not being as good at games as they are, the part that harasses women for being women. There might have been a valid discussion about gaming journalism and ethics, but it's not going to happen now, at least not under the #GamerGate banner. It's now far too tainted with the tinge of harassment and attacks against people who have any sort of disagreement with the idea that the status quo is fine.

Again, you're absolutely right that there are always going to be assholes who harass and belittle others. But until we start loudly saying "No, that's not okay, you need to change your behavior, and if you don't we're going to boot you out", we're implicitly saying that we find that behavior to be acceptable and a part of our culture. And yes, if nothing changes, "gamers" will get blamed, and can we really be surprised when that happens?

Edit: To echo others - I think your heart is in the right place. I know you want what's best for the community. But part of being in a community is recognizing that there can be bad actors in it and that the actions of a few can easily taint the entire community, and that it's up to that community to reform / reject those few. I know you're trying to do it from the inside, but people from the outside don't necessarily see that - they just see you as part of that group that they reject. I know it's an unnuanced view, but when it comes to masses of people who are all shouting stuff, nuance tends to go out the window.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

so the women in my gaming group are self-hating women? neato. I guess we'll have to choose to disagree with that too.

I'm simply pointing out it's an established and known thing, I don't know your friends & make no assumptions.

Anyway as per your request I'll be ignoring your posts for now.

snip
.

Oh you explained it quite clearly. Your post just made me curious if other people wanted to say/do the same.

 

[SwissLion]

Changed my mind. Read the rest of your deal and now I'm going to give you a list (though I don't know how to make lists here so whatever)

You're standing against that movement and because of that you are standing with people who have
- doxxed me
- made my wife feel uncomfortable in our home
- made my roomate choose to purchase a gun

we are clearly both terrible monsters.

This is intellectually dishonest and shitty.

Once again. #Anti-GG isn't a thing. By your definition we're standing with everyone who has ever heard of Gamergate and think it's dumb. This probably includes a lot of awful people, because people can be awful in plenty of ways that don't include being a member of Gamergate.

You're explicitly supporting a distinct movement, which has taken concrete action and encouraged much much more shit just through its existence. It has observable origins and identifiable motivations.

They're not equivalent.

And just to add to the list you were quoting. Gamergate now contains, with less objection voiced than that one trans woman who thought Milo Yiannopolous was a manipulative shitbird...

。☆ 。☆。☆
★。＼｜／。★
ＬＩＴＥＲＡＬ
ＮＡＺＩＳ
★。／｜＼。★
。☆。☆。☆

 

[boogie2988]

I see you edited your post, so let me just reply and tell you that I am super sad and angry that anyone would ever do such thing, especially in the name of some vague idea of justice. This is heinous and misguided and should be condemned on all fronts by everyone. Refer to my post above about the Tu Quoque argument.



Boogie, I want you to know that you are perfectly fine and nobody dislikes you. You are a good person with the best intentions and it's great to see you have a huge heart and wishing for the best for everyone. Nobody has a problem with you. You don't have to defend yourself. No one is attacking or desires to attack you.

What is happening is an attempt to tell you about the implications of defending Gamergate. We are trying to inform you that it is problematic to be associated with Gamergate.

And the good ones you are choosing to defend should be told likewise - that they are also being part of something despicable and heinous in nature.

But before doing all that and before even engaging this thread, make sure that you are healthy. Make sure you provide an oxygen mask for yourself before helping others. You know what I'm saying? If it is harming you, you have to exit the topic and take care of yourself. Okay?

as far as I was concerned I wasn't going to talk about this topic ever again. Then kotaku villified me. Then page 207 of this thread happened.

Trust me. I... WANT... OUT. I want to focus on my mental and physical health. But as long as there are people dragging me back in I am absolutely unable to do that.

I appreciate the kind words though. I'm glad that you feel that way about me. its very comforting. Its hard when people call me stupid and ignorant and shitty and awful to remember that its not personal. I take it personal and it hurts like a mother fucker.

So I appreciate you taking the time to say nice things to me instead. I'm really in need of a recharge after last week. San Francisco was supposed to be that, but then I came home to a mess.

I'm just so fucking tired. I just want this to be over. I absolutely want people involved to start being nice to each other rather than digging up shit and flinging it to see what sticks. If and when that happens I am hoping I'll find peace again. It breaks my heart knowing we'll never get to that point, and the discussion i've had in this thread (and elsewhere) tonight proves that this is true. It makes me feel very, very sad.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Changed my mind. Read the rest of your deal and now I'm going to give you a list (though I don't know how to make lists here so whatever)

You're standing against that movement and because of that you are standing with people who have
- doxxed me
- made my wife feel uncomfortable in our home
- made my roomate choose to purchase a gun

we are clearly both terrible monsters.

I think my issue here is I'd make a statement denouncing that and state something that could be twisted into a "No true Scotsman" statement (i.e. #NoTallAntiGG people), but it's not really necessary. I mean, you obviously don't deserve in real life harassment over this. Your wife certainly shouldn't feel uncomfortable or unsafe in your own home. Nobody on either side of this ridiculous issue should experience any harm as a result of video games.

But having said that, it's easier throw the baby out with the bath water in terms of deriding all GamerGate people when they all choose to fly the same banner. The people who doxxed you? I have absolutely no idea what they stand for and whether or not we share anything in common aside from thinking GamerGate is a dubious cause -- which hardly makes them an "ally" in this... thing (quotes employed because I feel like it implies that there's a war and such grandiosity is simply nonsensical here).

 

[boogie2988]

I'm simply pointing out it's an established and known thing, I don't know your friends & make no assumptions.

Anyway as per your request I'll be ignoring your posts for now.



Oh you explained it quite clearly. Your post just made me curious if other people wanted to say/do the same.

just for 6 hours, please. <3

 

[Neoriceisgood]

just for 6 hours, please. <3

Yeah of course!

 

[partyphone]

it's pretty easy to support good games journalism while denouncing gamergate. i'm having trouble seeing the problem here.

 

[boogie2988]

I think my issue here is I'd make a statement denouncing that and state something that could be twisted into a "No true Scotsman" statement (i.e. #NoTallAntiGG people), but it's not really necessary. I mean, you obviously don't deserve in real life harassment over this. Your wife certainly shouldn't feel uncomfortable or unsafe in your own home. Nobody on either side of this ridiculous issue should experience any harm as a result of video games.

But having said that, it's easier throw the baby out with the bath water in terms of deriding all GamerGate people when they all choose to fly the same banner. The people who doxxed you? I have absolutely no idea what they stand for and whether or not we share anything in common aside from thinking GamerGate is a dubious cause -- which hardly makes them an "ally" in this... thing (quotes employed because I feel like it implies that there's a war and such grandiosity is simply nonsensical here).

Point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't generalize people. I can generalize everyone who thinks gamergate is stupid as the same as the person who doxxed me. You can say that every gamergater, including me for some reason, hates women.

Both of us are wrong to do so. I was attempting to employ sarcasm and over exaggeration to express this point.

Its much more simple and more accurate to say "some people are assholes and people who do those kinds of things are assholes" rather than speak in blanket terms. I was simply trying to convey that in a new way because simply typing that for the 100th time in this thread seemed stupid.

 

[jschreier]

Then kotaku villified me.

What? I assume you're referring to the Shadow of Mordor article, which interviewed you, quoted you heavily, included your video, and made no attempt to cast judgement on anything you've done. Can you point out for me why you think we vilified you?

 

[Lalalandia]

o.k.

Is this "explain/show our stance" day? I'd actually be curious to hear more about why people who are "against" GG are ...anti-GG. Curious to see how much overlap there'll be.

I'm against GG because it is rooted in the Zoe Quinn #Quinnspiracy nonsense (Adam Baldwins GG tag preceded LA's article by a day), it latterly evolved to include those who felt hurt by LA's article (which I still find baffling) but has had no positive outcomes but a hell of a lot of negative ones.

This does feed into a pro/anti GG narrative though which I find worrying, groups that identify themselves as under pressure often build these narratives to hold on to members. You can walk away from any movement at any time if you feel that the movement is going in a direction you don't like or cannot support. It is not admitting defeat or surrendering credibility to say 'this is not going where I want to go so I'm out', I myself have been in movements that have turned into glorified campaign ads for participants or parties so I walked away and you can too.

 

[boogie2988]

it's pretty easy to support good games journalism while denouncing gamergate. i'm having trouble seeing the problem here.

this guy. i like this guy.

this is LITERALLY what I said in my video earlier today. Feel free to either ignore or denounce the shitty people involved (and if for you that's all of gamergate that's fine!).
Lift up on your shoulders the good gamers, and authors, and tweeps who do good things. celebrate them and ignore the assholes.

It just seems so fucking simple and yet no one seems to agree with me.

Maybe we're crazy. Or maybe I'm crazy and you think so too.

Either way i still like you very much for giving a brief moment of believing I wasn't alone in this sentiment.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Point I was trying to make is that we shouldn't generalize people. I can generalize everyone who thinks gamergate is stupid as the same as the person who doxxed me. You can say that every gamergater, including me for some reason, hates women.

Both of us are wrong to do so. I was attempting to employ sarcasm and over exaggeration to express this point.

Its much more simple and more accurate to say "some people are assholes and people who do those kinds of things are assholes" rather than speak in blanket terms. I was simply trying to convey that in a new way because simply typing that for the 100th time in this thread seemed stupid.

It stops being a generalization when it happens on a daily basis to multiple people.

 

[boogie2988]

What? I assume you're referring to the Shadow of Mordor article, which interviewed you, quoted you heavily, included your video, and made no attempt to cast judgement on anything you've done. Can you point out for me why you think we vilified you?

Jason as I said several times in this thread I am absolutely grateful that you guys gave me a chance to defend myself and I'm very appreciative of that.

But as you knew it would that article caused absolutely no end of trouble for me, and it made me out to be a villain in some people's eyes. You absolutely had to know that this was a possible outcome.

I'm not saying that was your primary goal and I'm not even saying it was the intent, I'm just saying that it was the product of that article. This forced me to not only defend myself, but re-enter this conversation I had tried to hard to eject from.

 

[Corto]

this guy. i like this guy.

this is LITERALLY what I said in my video earlier today. Feel free to either ignore or denounce the shitty people involved (and if for you that's all of gamergate that's fine!).
Lift up on your shoulders the good gamers, and authors, and tweeps who do good things. celebrate them and ignore the assholes.

It just seems so fucking simple and yet no one seems to agree with me.

Maybe we're crazy. Or maybe I'm crazy and you think so too.

Either way i still like you very much for giving a brief moment of believing I wasn't alone in this sentiment.

Then denounce gamergate. Use your megaphone, your clout to pull the good people that were attracted by the "fight against corruption" diversionary banner to a new clean slate movement.

 

[jschreier]

Jason as I said several times in this thread I am absolutely grateful that you guys gave me a chance to defend myself and I'm very appreciative of that.

But as you knew it would that article caused absolutely no end of trouble for me, and it made me out to be a villain in some people's eyes. You absolutely had to know that this was a possible outcome.

I'm not saying that was your primary goal and I'm not even saying it was the intent, I'm just saying that it was the product of that article. This forced me to not only defend myself, but re-enter this conversation I had tried to hard to eject from.

But that's not what you said. You said Kotaku "vilified" you. I'm hoping to understand why you believe that.

 

[partyphone]

i think the key is you have to unequivocally denounce gamergate. you can't worry about the handful of naive people who think they're doing something good by supporting it.

 

[boogie2988]

It stops being a generalization when it happens on a daily basis to multiple people.

That's the difference between you and I. People hate it when I use this example but I'm going to use it none the less.

I believe that extremists NEVER represent the whole until a VERY LARGE PORTION of that whole is an extremist. It doesn't matter which example you give here, pick your least favorite and presume I used that one. If there are a million people who believe a thing, and only one... or 10... or 100... or a thousand of those people do something shitty that doesn't mean the entire group is shitty to me.

Whats the cut off for me? I don't know. 75%? too high. Half? Maybe. 25%? reasonable still.

but do I think 25% of gamers are sending death threats and harassing women? not at all. not even close.

Whats your threshold? How many gamers out of the BILLION globally have to be harassing women until, for you, its all of us?

 

[freddy]

What? I assume you're referring to the Shadow of Mordor article, which interviewed you, quoted you heavily, included your video, and made no attempt to cast judgement on anything you've done. Can you point out for me why you think we vilified you?

Jesus man do you have a buzzer go off whenever Kotaku is mentioned? It's like there's bat signal goes up or something.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

But that's not what you said. You said Kotaku "vilified" you. I'm hoping to understand why you believe that.

I think Boogie just messed up on the definition of "vilified", I think he meant "made him look like a villain to people who disagreed with his views" rather than you guys actually vilifying him.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

as far as I was concerned I wasn't going to talk about this topic ever again. Then kotaku villified me. Then page 207 of this thread happened.

Trust me. I... WANT... OUT. I want to focus on my mental and physical health. But as long as there are people dragging me back in I am absolutely unable to do that.

I appreciate the kind words though. I'm glad that you feel that way about me. its very comforting. Its hard when people call me stupid and ignorant and shitty and awful to remember that its not personal. I take it personal and it hurts like a mother fucker.

So I appreciate you taking the time to say nice things to me instead. I'm really in need of a recharge after last week. San Francisco was supposed to be that, but then I came home to a mess.

I'm just so fucking tired. I just want this to be over. I absolutely want people involved to start being nice to each other rather than digging up shit and flinging it to see what sticks. If and when that happens I am hoping I'll find peace again. It breaks my heart knowing we'll never get to that point, and the discussion i've had in this thread (and elsewhere) tonight proves that this is true. It makes me feel very, very sad.

boogie: first of all, stay healthy. This shit isn't worth it. This whole thing is so fucking stupid that it defies my understanding of reality as to why this is even still a thing that we are talking about. Having said that, if you want out, then it's also on you to avoid the conversation. And you don't accomplish that by using a medium that necessitates a 140 character limit that precludes any nuance you might have intended. I'm sure you might argue that there's more context or that you've elaborated elsewhere, but as a standalone sentiment, this? This is a stupid tweet that you should feel bad for having written:

Fun fact:
Even if #GamerGate ended today, crazy people will still make death threats. The media just won't have gamers to blame any more.

Regardless of intent, the read many will take away from that is that the harassment problem is secondary to the real problem here: that the good name of gamers is being besmirched out there. And this is just silly. I'm no more afraid to talk about playing games out in public today than I was yesterday. I'm not suddenly terrified that a conversation I'm having in a restaurant or bar about video games is going to be overheard by law enforcement who are suddenly going to seek a warrant for my internet records so as to discover what misogynistic harassment I've been up to. I'm not fearful in the least that anybody who enjoys this hobby of our's is now suddenly under suspicion of anything nefarious.

And again, I'm sure that your intent isn't to argue that Anonymous Online Gamer #23412 who is worried about how gamers are being perceived has just as much right to feel victimized as Brianna Wu, but the format doesn't allow any such intended nuance to come through. It reads as though harassment isn't a problem worth worrying about because it's going to happen anyway, but maybe we can stop blaming poor gamers for activities that always have and always will happen.

 

[More_Badass]

as far as I was concerned I wasn't going to talk about this topic ever again. Then kotaku villified me. Then page 207 of this thread happened.

Trust me. I... WANT... OUT. I want to focus on my mental and physical health. But as long as there are people dragging me back in I am absolutely unable to do that.

I appreciate the kind words though. I'm glad that you feel that way about me. its very comforting. Its hard when people call me stupid and ignorant and shitty and awful to remember that its not personal. I take it personal and it hurts like a mother fucker.

So I appreciate you taking the time to say nice things to me instead. I'm really in need of a recharge after last week. San Francisco was supposed to be that, but then I came home to a mess.

I'm just so fucking tired. I just want this to be over. I absolutely want people involved to start being nice to each other rather than digging up shit and flinging it to see what sticks. If and when that happens I am hoping I'll find peace again. It breaks my heart knowing we'll never get to that point, and the discussion i've had in this thread (and elsewhere) tonight proves that this is true. It makes me feel very, very sad.

First of all, I want to see thank you for coming to the thread. I had never heard of you before (seems I'm in the minority here) so my first impression was from that tweet that had been posted before. So thank you for coming here and discussing your thoughts and beliefs, because really Twitter is a poor way to have any kind of discussion

Personally I just can't subscribe your notion of this is gaming, this is all the community will be, it will never change. I can't. These assholes that harass and attack and twist and distort, they may be at the forefront, but they don't speak for me, for the medium, for the vast and varied audience that takes part in the hobby. They may be "gamers", but they don't represent the entire community. I'm sick and tired of seeing these people, this vocal minority, define what a gamer is in the minds of journalists and developers and publishers.

I think your opinions are defeatist in a way; games is still a young medium, still maturing, it has a lot of flaws but there is still hope and more than enough time in the future for the medium and industry to shed this black mark on its reputation.

Maybe I'm just young and naive and insulated. I think GamerGate (or at least the idea of it) started out as a good thing, discussing things that absolutely must be discussed like publisher influence on sites and coverage, the role of games media, but opportunists and other toxic personalities took advantage and turned it into the mass of hateful attacks and incessant harassment we see today.

 

[boogie2988]

But that's not what you said. You said Kotaku "vilified" you. I'm hoping to understand why you believe that.

as I said because that was the OUTCOME of the article. I became the villain in that story. I don't know how to say this clearer.

perhaps I am misusing the word Vilified. Ok yes after looking at the definition of the word, I am.

allow me to rephrase.

"After Kotaku wrote an article about a topic that caused me to defend myself and caused many people to believe I was some sort of villain in the story they were weaving"

Hopefully that clarifies things. If you'd like I'll edit the original statement to reflect that change.

 

[Corto]

That's the difference between you and I. People hate it when I use this example but I'm going to use it none the less.

I believe that extremists NEVER represent the whole until a VERY LARGE PORTION of that whole is an extremist. It doesn't matter which example you give here, pick your least favorite and presume I used that one. If there are a million people who believe a thing, and only one... or 10... or 100... or a thousand of those people do something shitty that doesn't mean the entire group is shitty to me.

Whats the cut off for me? I don't know. 75%? too high. Half? Maybe. 25%? reasonable still.

but do I think 25% of gamers are sending death threats and harassing women? not at all. not even close.

Whats your threshold? How many gamers out of the BILLION globally have to be harassing women until, for you, its all of us?

The reasonable threshold in this case should be not associate to a movement expressly created to attack a woman developer personal life with the excuse of fighting against nepotism.

 

[Lime]

boogie: first of all, stay healthy. This shit isn't worth it. This whole thing is so fucking stupid that it defies my understanding of reality as to why this is even still a thing that we are talking about.

I think Cracked's Editor nailed it some weeks back:

Editor's Note: A few weeks ago our message board and general inbox were bombarded with demands we address something called the "GamerGate Scandal", posts written with the urgency and rage one would associate with, say, discovering that Chipotle burritos are made entirely from the meat of human babies. It's apparently a big deal in some circles, so we followed the links and read the piles of data presented, and had to stop and take a deep breath just to grasp it all. "Gentlemen," we said amid the stunned silence, "do you realize that if what they're saying is true, then this is still the most pointless fucking bullshit anyone has ever forced us to read?"

 

[SwissLion]

That's the difference between you and I. People hate it when I use this example but I'm going to use it none the less.

I believe that extremists NEVER represent the whole until a VERY LARGE PORTION of that whole is an extremist. It doesn't matter which example you give here, pick your least favorite and presume I used that one. If there are a million people who believe a thing, and only one... or 10... or 100... or a thousand of those people do something shitty that doesn't mean the entire group is shitty to me.

Whats the cut off for me? I don't know. 75%? too high. Half? Maybe. 25%? reasonable still.

but do I think 25% of gamers are sending death threats and harassing women? not at all. not even close.

Whats your threshold? How many gamers out of the BILLION globally have to be harassing women until, for you, its all of us?

Our problem with this kind of reasoning is that those who are not actively harassing it are passively supporting, justifying and shielding it.

The movement isn't being defined by an extreme minority. It's being defined by its origins, and the only concrete effects it has had. The escapist slightly revising and reiterating their ethics policy is a worthless, trite achievement in the face of all the harm it has caused.

I know you don't like people calling you ignorant (I have implicitly done this) but when you fundamentally misunderstand people's objections to the movement like this it's exactly how you come out.