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[boogie2988]

I feel like I'm not really making sense any more and its because its about 5 hours past my usual bedtime and I took a LOT of sleeping pills and I'm really kind of exhausted now and I'd just really like to take a break from defending myself and sleep a little while so we can we agree as a group to wait a tleast 4-6 hours before resuming talking about how shitty i am. please.

 

[Corpekata]

Get some sleep and feel better man and rest assured that some of the people you seem to think hate you do not.

 

[boogie2988]

The reasonable threshold in this case should be not associate to a movement expressly created to attack a woman developer personal life with the excuse of fighting against nepotism.

and again I try to get people to understand that the majority of people involved outright reject this idea and do not even consider it what you do; some misogynistic movement fueled by red-pillers aimed at destroying women/

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Boogie go sleep, people will understand if you don't reply to posts for a while; we won't suddenly believe you're Sauron overnight.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is ostensibly where I'm at with all this now. I have had a good few GGers be perfectly respectful to me, but that doesn't make me want to join GG. It makes me wish these good people were backing a nicer horse.

Jim, I understand if you can't, but can you comment on the Escapist situation at all? You've been fairly aggressively critical on Twitter about that recent GG piece. I honestly agree that it was awful, but I would much rather have you in a position of even greater editorial influence over there rather then something like you leaving or cutting back on content with them. Of course both scenarios could be completely fanciful.

 

[Lowlander2]

Anti-GG doesn’t have manifestos or operations or chatrooms, it’s a just a description applied to anyone who says “Hey, this is fucked up.”

I'm simply not sure I'm ready to believe this. True, there isn't as much organisation and grouping as there is with GG, as precious little as there is, but there are still some common threads that tend to group a lot of them together in a form of comraderie, rather than just a similar sense of justice.

As an example, Social Justice Warrior, or SJW, was seen as such a ridiculous insult to many people actually involved in social justice that they're deliberately appropriating it, and on Twitter you'll see many people with Social Justice <RPG class> as their name or in their bio. But there's something stopping me in adopting this too, even though I'm a firm believer in social justice in general, and that's the idea that being a Social Justice Whatever myself means that I'm instantly in the same party with every other Social Justice RPG Archetype, when there are many I do not trust, like or respect. I don't want those connotations. In fact, I'd sooner make a statement of intent that I reject being instantly allied with anyone else with that sort of Twitter bio or name.

In the context of people against GamerGate, the identifier is far less tangible than a giveaway like the example above, but it sure as shit isn't as simple as saying "this is fucked up", or again, I'd have nothing to complain about.

 

[boogie2988]

Our problem with this kind of reasoning is that those who are not actively harassing it are passively supporting, justifying and shielding it.

The movement isn't being defined by an extreme minority. It's being defined by its origins, and the only concrete effects it has had. The escapist slightly revising and reiterating their ethics policy is a worthless, trite achievement in the face of all the harm it has caused.

I know you don't like people calling you ignorant (I have implicitly done this) but when you fundamentally misunderstand people's objections to the movement like this it's exactly how you come out.

so using this logic... because I own an ipad I am personally torturing the people who make them. yes, I know that there is some truth to this kind of logic but its very difficult for the majority of people to accept it and the iphone is still really fucking popular.

I cannot accept that using a hashtag to beg people to be kind to each other is the same as attacking zoe quinn personally. I just don't' have it in me.

 

[bishopcruz]

What is happening in this thread is an attempt to tell you about the implications of defending Gamergate. We are trying to inform you that it is problematic to be associated with Gamergate. That is not an attack. That is not you having to defend yourself. That is telling you about our and others experiences and how it is hurting us.

Lime, I honestly have kept away from posting in this bad boy of a thread in many ways primarily because of several post that you have made.I want to state flat out that I am not intending that as an attack in any way, just as a statement of where I am coming from.

I understand that you are very much incensed about the hurt that you and others have experienced, and that it perfectly understandable. What I hope you can understand is that in many ways people joined #GG (in whatever way you can join such an amorphous thing) primarily in response to the "gamers are dead" articles I have seen you defend length several times in this thread.

Those articles touched a nerve, they hurt people, offended people. That in many ways informed everything that came after it. And no matter how you try to spin it, the Leigh Alexander article, among others was grossly insulting. I don't want to argue those points.

So it is coming from a place of hurt and anger as well.

And I know it's different, lord knows that what happened to Anita, Zoe and the like is far worse than what happens to the average gater, but the fact is, as empathetic as we try to be, personal hurt tends to stay with us more than offenses against someone we don't even know.

 

[boogie2988]

Boogie go sleep, people will understand if you don't reply to posts for a while; we won't suddenly believe you're Sauron overnight.

you need to read page 207 again then. i can't wake up to that. I just can't. I'd rather not sleep at all.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

you need to read page 207 again then. i can't wake up to that. I just can't. I'd rather not sleep at all.

I only have 108 pages, clearly our settings are different. x:

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Edit: Not worth it.

 

[boogie2988]

I am beginning to realize that I have gone completely off the rails right into dangerous territory now and so I'm going to try to take a few more sleeping pills and try to pull myself away from this computer and I'm just going to try to pretend that we've all agreed to stop talking about how shitty I am for a little while and you guys will wait until I'm in my right mind so I'll be able to defend myself and while I know this is asking too much and won't happen I'm going to do my best to believe and and maybe these pills will knock me out. good night.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

... Goodnight Boogie.

 

[ClosingADoor]

so using this logic... because I own an ipad I am personally torturing the people who make them. yes, I know that there is some truth to this kind of logic but its very difficult for the majority of people to accept it and the iphone is still really fucking popular.

I cannot accept that using a hashtag to beg people to be kind to each other is the same as attacking zoe quinn personally. I just don't' have it in me.

Come on man, if by now you can't understand how using that tag reflects badly on you, because those people are using it t harass others, nothing will ever convince you.

Not all people using it are bad or do bad things. But the tag is tainted by that stuff and that's just the way it is.

 

[Lalalandia]

Sleep well Boogie, I know in times of stress it's helped me regain my own sense of balance and self worth.

 

[boogie2988]

Come on man, if by now you can't understand how using that tag reflects badly on you, because those people are using it t harass others, nothing will ever convince you.

Not all people using it are bad or do bad things. But the tag is tainted by that stuff and that's just the way it is.

and for the 5005th time in this thread I am going to try to explain to you that while you believe that the majority of the people outside of this echo chamber outright reject that idea.

 

[More_Badass]

Hope it's not rude to ask, but who exactly is Boogie? I only first heard of him when someone posted the Tweet here. Is he a journalist?

 

[boogie2988]

Hope it's not rude to ask, but who exactly is Boogie? I only first heard of him when someone posted the Tweet here. Is he a journalist?

just some second rate youtuber who built a following asking for inclusivity, kindness, and integrity in gaming who in the past 2 months managed to destroy it by asking for inclusivity, kindness, and integrity in gaming.

so to more directly answer you question; nobody in about 3 weeks at this rate.

 

[ClosingADoor]

and for the 5005th time in this thread I am going to try to explain to you that while you believe that the majority of the people outside of this echo chamber outright reject that idea.

I know your standpoint, and you have every right to believe that. But the majority here don't - or at least from what I have read. I don't think either side will ever convince each other at this point.

I honestly believe it is in the best interest of everyone to just let it all go for a few months and pick up the separate issues that are now bundled all together after that.

I do appreciate your posts here and understand your standpoint. I just don't agree with it, just like you don't have to agree with mine

 

[Son of Cervantes]

just some second rate youtuber who built a following asking for inclusivity, kindness, and integrity in gaming who in the past 2 months managed to destroy it by asking for inclusivity, kindness, and integrity in gaming.

so to more directly answer you question; nobody in about 3 weeks at this rate.

Boogie, take time off from this thread. It's not doing you any good.

 

[Lalalandia]

Hope it's not rude to ask, but who exactly is Boogie? I only first heard of him when someone posted the Tweet here. Is he a journalist?

Draw my life - Boogie2988
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ1cUup0ATg

Not at all he's a prominent YouTube creator who became particularly famous for the mad rantings of one of his characters 'Francis' who is played as a stereotypical 'gamer' complete with freak outs over nonsense. Good stuff regardless of my disagreements with his stance on GG.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Hope it's not rude to ask, but who exactly is Boogie? I only first heard of him when someone posted the Tweet here. Is he a journalist?

He's a very popular youtuber (generally known for both his "Francis" character & his general opinion videos on any sort of gaming issue, generally speaking his stuff's fun to watch.)

He's also clearly in need for a good night sleep.

 

[sneaky77]

you need to read page 207 again then. i can't wake up to that. I just can't. I'd rather not sleep at all.

So you're upset that you went (I assume, willingly) on Kotaku, and gave an interview, and made a youtube video.. both of which are very public.. and somehow you're upset people are discussing that and possibly disagreeing with you?

Sorry bud, you chose that.. you're a public figure, is how you make your money and no one forced you to do either of those things. It's fine if you don't want to come on this thread and talk non stop about it, but you put it out there.. people have the right to discuss.

 

[More_Badass]

just some second rate youtuber who built a following asking for inclusivity, kindness, and integrity in gaming who in the past 2 months managed to destroy it by asking for inclusivity, kindness, and integrity in gaming.

so to more directly answer you question; nobody in about 3 weeks at this rate.

Maybe, I'm just young and naive. But there's still hope for the medium. It's still young, still maturing. It has a lot of flaws but there is still hope and more than enough time in the future for the medium and industry to shed this black mark on its reputation. I can't accept that this is all the community will be, that it will never change. I can't.

These people that harass and attack and twist and distort, they may be at the forefront now, but they don't speak for me, for the medium, for the vast and varied audience that takes part in the hobby. They may be "gamers", but they don't represent the entire community. I'm sick and tired of seeing these people, this vocal minority, define what a gamer is in the minds of journalists and developers and publishers.

So please don't stop fighting for those notions of inclusivity and integrity. We need voices like that to show that those people don't represent the medium, don't represent the community that enjoys the hobby

 

[boogie2988]

Sorry bud, you chose that.. you're a public figure, is how you make your money and no one forced you to do either of those things. It's fine if you don't want to come on this thread and talk non stop about it, but you put it out there.. people have the right to discuss.

am I stupid, or is this an EXACT EXAMPLE of victim blaming?

I'm probably just stupid.

But I digress: yes I did choose to make that a topic of discussion and a topic I willingly chose to participate in to help inform the consumer. I thought the consumer would be grateful. Many consumers were not and were downright mean about it. That's the risk we take when we are truthful with the consumer, but its worth it in the end as long as a few become educated and do good things with that information.

Also (and I hope jason sees this) many of the contracts I have signed have had addendums removing some of that hurtful language from them. I assume all future contracts will have this too. Lots of good came out of it too.

I was just trying to state that because of that article I got drug back into this conversation against my will. Simply that.

 

[SwissLion]

so using this logic... because I own an ipad I am personally torturing the people who make them. yes, I know that there is some truth to this kind of logic but its very difficult for the majority of people to accept it and the iphone is still really fucking popular.

I cannot accept that using a hashtag to beg people to be kind to each other is the same as attacking zoe quinn personally. I just don't' have it in me.

It's not the same and nobody is saying it is.

What we're saying is that those who aren't directly harassing anyone are not absolved of all responsibility for the way they are shielding it.

They're providing an air (and that's about it, not even a sheen) of legitimacy to a movement literally founded to slut-shame a female dev. Like that was 100% objectively its beginning. The fact that nobody seems to stop and question how they ended up linked DIRECTLY to that is completely baffling to me.

Every person who is a part of Gamergate is either ignoring (shitty), excusing (super shitty), indirectly supporting (pretty shitty), or simply disguising (probably unintentional, still shitty). Like if you were just using the hashtag to spread your message of love all "Be excellent to eachother #Gamergate" nobody would have a problem with it.

But people have already pointed out that you're repeating misleading talking points from Gamergate. The Gamer persecution complex is a big part about why this has thrived so much. People still stuck in the mentality of ten years ago when anti-Gamer legislation was being considered (barely ever legitimately) are applying that same lens to cultural criticism, or calls from within the culture to help improve it, or any goddamned thing they please, as attacks on their culture or the medium they feel they own.

EDIT:

and for the 5005th time in this thread I am going to try to explain to you that while you believe that the majority of the people outside of this echo chamber outright reject that idea.

Every other community outside of the escapist forums and twitter randos has largely held a similar position. It's been posited in several articles at this point.

We are not the echo chamber. Gamergate is.

 

[boogie2988]

It's not the same and nobody is saying it is.

What we're saying is that those who aren't directly harassing anyone are not absolved of all responsibility for the way they are shielding it.

They're providing an air (and that's about it, not even a sheen) of legitimacy to a movement literally founded to slut-shame a female dev. Like that was 100% objectively its beginning. The fact that nobody seems to stop and question how they ended up linked DIRECTLY to that is completely baffling to me.

Every person who is a part of Gamergate is either ignoring (shitty), excusing (super shitty), indirectly supporting (pretty shitty), or simply disguising (probably unintentional, still shitty). Like if you were just using the hashtag to spread your message of love all "Be excellent to eachother #Gamergate" nobody would have a problem with it.

But people have already pointed out that you're repeating misleading talking points from Gamergate. The Gamer persecution complex is a big part about why this has thrived so much. People still stuck in the mentality of ten years ago when anti-Gamer legislation was being considered (barely ever legitimately) are applying that same lens to cultural criticism, or calls from within the culture to help improve it, or any goddamned thing they please, as attacks on their culture or the medium they feel they own.

I'm not shielding it. I'm condemning the bad people. case in point:
http://boogie2988.tumblr.com/post/99898851778/lets-make-something-very-clear-about-gamergate

I simply do not have the strength left to defend myself from the rest of your statement please and thank you

 

[Prax]

I stayed up to read through the thread and keep up to date. And wow.

Anyway, I usually only pop in to say stuff when there seems to be a huge compulsion to.

I don't want to keep you up boogie, but your further discussion about this and almost using this thread to validate your existence is unhealthy. It will probably do you a lot of good (and the other contributors and readers of this thread a lot of good, actually) to not use this place as a venting mechanism and it would serve you better to discuss these feelings privately with a therapist.
Not because I want you to be silent, but because I feel the way you are absorbing people's words and then your subsequent reaction to them with your compulsion to reply to defend yourself in a self-destructive way (by adding self-harm ideations) is a detriment to your mental health and spirit.

And this goes for other who may also "over-identify" with something that has very dubious roots with very messy branches.
Don't let labels define you to the point of restriction and suffocation. For example, the identity of a "gamer" should not require you defend it from every criticism to the point that you feel you have to support terrible motives or bad/misguided aspects of it. Just because you're a gamer doesn't mean you have to support gamergate, the specific movement of.. whatever it thinks it is. You don't need to justify bs or people who spew bs just because they "share" a label or identity or partial ideologies with you.

Also, be more discerning about causes and wagons you're hooking yourself onto. Just because one or two things seem appealing at first glance or might appear valid/legit, like a nice paint job or abstract promises of freedom from restrictions, doesn't mean it's still not heading into oncoming traffic for a pileup.
"But not everyone in the car is a bad person! One person is good with directions. Another might like the horn too much.. but the other one just wanted to explore the open road!! WE'RE NOT ALL BAD" Well, the wagon you're riding on appears to be holding maybe one too many people thinking horseplay and road rage is OK, and everyone else on the road is tense because they see the accident just waiting to happen (and hoping they won't get caught in it or the jam).

And take it to heart that try as you may to steer such a "movement" as gamergate, it's better to just do your best to get everyone to pull over and stop the road trip. Or if you're more inclined, just bail out and be glad you did before it sideswipes and crashes into more people.

So I hope you understand.
My great analogy.

 

[Tetsuo9]

At the end of the day, I wonder if this whole "we have to stand up to abuse" is going to change anything in the short-term. I can see that in years, some people will get the message and will not abuse people online. But gamergate itself is still going strong and the same abusive behaviour is going on in xbox live, in games like CS or eve online, that is what I play.

I wonder if we should focus instead on demanding devs stronger moderation of voice and chat communications online, and design of better filters, systems of community self-moderation (like the tribunal in league of legends) and design games that require less direct communication (like Hearthstone).

 

[Lime]

Lime, I honestly have kept away from posting in this bad boy of a thread in many ways primarily because of several post that you have made.I want to state flat out that I am not intending that as an attack in any way, just as a statement of where I am coming from.

I understand that you are very much incensed about the hurt that you and others have experienced, and that it perfectly understandable. What I hope you can understand is that in many ways people joined #GG (in whatever way you can join such an amorphous thing) primarily in response to the "gamers are dead" articles I have seen you defend length several times in this thread.

Those articles touched a nerve, they hurt people, offended people. That in many ways informed everything that came after it. And no matter how you try to spin it, the Leigh Alexander article, among others was grossly insulting. I don't want to argue those points.

So it is coming from a place of hurt and anger as well.

And I know it's different, lord knows that what happened to Anita, Zoe and the like is far worse than what happens to the average gater, but the fact is, as empathetic as we try to be, personal hurt tends to stay with us more than offenses against someone we don't even know.

I understand where people are coming from. I understand the hurt and anger. If you recognize that what has happened to Sarkeesian, Quinn, Wu, Frank, Brice, etc., you also recognize that the personal hurt you receive from the "Gamers Are Over" articles need to be spoke off in a different context than what is currently going on with Gamergate.

What makes it impossible to speak of the hurt and anger people feel from Leigh Alexander and Daniel Golding and all the others, is the fucking gamer bigots who are harassing and threatening anyone who exist as a non-subservient woman or a person speaking up about the status quo or how they feel things could improve and diversify. It is these fucking gamers bigots who are making it impossible to talk about your feelings being hurt by the Gamers Are Over articles. These people are taking away any room or space for discussion of actual issues and of actual feelings.

So, don't be angry or hurt over the Gamers Are Over articles. Be angry with the people who continue to confirm the ridiculous gamer stereotype and continue to confirm what Alexander characterized. Because that is literally what they are doing and they are shitting all over you and anyone associated with the gamer identity. So direct your anger towards them and the way that they continuously assert their position of power through harassment, terrorism, and censorship.

 

[kcp12304]

Take a break dude and everyone should give him a break too. Unplug for a bit.

 

[Orayn]

am I stupid, or is this an EXACT EXAMPLE of victim blaming?

I'm probably just stupid.

But I digress: yes I did choose to make that a topic of discussion and a topic I willingly chose to participate in to help inform the consumer. I thought the consumer would be grateful. Many consumers were not and were downright mean about it. That's the risk we take when we are truthful with the consumer, but its worth it in the end as long as a few become educated and do good things with that information.

Also (and I hope jason sees this) many of the contracts I have signed have had addendums removing some of that hurtful language from them. I assume all future contracts will have this too. Lots of good came out of it too.

I was just trying to state that because of that article I got drug back into this conversation against my will. Simply that.

I'm sad to hear that you think of it this way, because people in this thread are not attacking you. A lot of the scrutiny is from people who really like you.

But yeah, as others have said, it can be very stressful and exhausting to keep up with a thread where people are quoting you a bunch and giving you a hard time. Hell, I'm only part of the "echo chamber" and this thread stresses *me* out, so there's absolutely no shame in taking a break from a topic if it's affecting you in a negative way.

 

[SwissLion]

"I don't like harassment and those who do it at anyone are dumb-butts" has never, and will never, mean anything without concrete action to stop facilitating them. Words are cheap.

I've outlined pretty broadly how just repeating talking points and taking part in the tag helps these people ruin lives. It's often in negligible ways, on the individual level, but when you get enough people acting in the same way, or are prominent enough, you start concretely adding to the hatred, and it barely matters what your intentions are.

That's what mobs do. They turn reason into noise, turn gentle pushes into deadly tramples, they absorb people and don't let go, and it doesn't matter how many people within the mob are just well-intentioned bodies, they're adding to the mass, and they're being directed by the worst elements.

 

[freddy]

stuff

My grandfather once warned me about sitting on the fence and told me I'd be split in half by people pulling on either side of my trouser leg. My advice is if you continue to straddle that fence stop posting here and in extreme places on the other side. Double down on your fans that have supported you through thick and thin. If you have to say something about GamerGate say it on your channel. There are many here expressing concern about your well being but the thread as a whole will continue to rip into you, until you drop the hashtag. Leave it be and talk to your fanbase.

 

[boogie2988]

I'm sad to hear that you think of it this way, because people in this thread are not attacking you. A lot of the scrutiny is from people who really like you.

But yeah, as others have said, it can be very stressful and exhausting to keep up with a thread where people are quoting you a bunch and giving you a hard time. Hell, I'm only part of the "echo chamber" and this thread stresses *me* out, so there's absolutely no shame in taking a break from a topic if it's affecting you in a negative way.

can't take a break as long as I feel compelled to defend myself and this thread keeps giving me plenty fo reasons. I'm currently up to a quaddruple dose of my sleeping pills and i still can't drag myself away from this cmputer even tho i did fall asleep at if for about 3 minutes and that was nice.

its difficult that people who really like me would call me stupid and ignorant and willfully obtuse but i guess maybe you're right but i'd never say those things to people i like. I'd just try to reason with them without the name calling or insulting language but i guess i can't hold otherse to that standard.

 

[Ayt]

This is extremely unhealthy. Please just go to sleep.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Sort of curious about other's views on this.

I focus on the harassment because it bothers me a lot, but it has very little to do with my support/lack of support for #GG at a core level.


From the very start I've not been interested in #GG due to the fact that it is by it's very nature an extremely conspiratorial movement. Many of the proposed "moderates" still equate "corruption" with some sort of weird DiGra-feminist conspiracy.

I agree that the discussion regarding harassment is much much broader than #GG, but it's obvious that #GG fueled the fires of harassment (or at least made it much easier to see in some cases)

 

[Lime]

At the end of the day, I wonder if this whole "we have to stand up to abuse" is going to change anything in the short-term. I can see that in years, some people will get the message and will not abuse people online. But gamergate itself is still going strong and the same abusive behaviour is going on in xbox live, in games like CS or eve online, that is what I play.

I wonder if we should focus instead on demanding devs stronger moderation of voice and chat communications online, and design of better filters, systems of community self-moderation (like the tribunal in league of legends) and design games that require less direct communication (like Hearthstone).

Galactic Fork kind of touched upon this earlier:

While this can be true, it's not the "bad people" that represent the group, it's the group's response to the "bad people." If a guy says shit over Xbox Live, and nobody says anything, that represents gamers. If lots of people talk shit over Xbox live or MMOs and any complaint or pushback is met with "well go to a different server" or "block them," that represents gamers. It's saying the "bad people" have a definitive place in the community and it's everybody else's job to accept it, or adjust their actions around it. It makes the "bad people" the default, and those who don't want to deal with them "the other." The people not affected by "the bad people" are more put out by the people complaining about the "bad people" than the "bad people" themselves. And that reflects on the community.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Okay, so this is what I don't understand about the "moderate" gator who's just upset about those articles.

See, I was upset when a bunch of media people decided that ME3 was perfectly fine and entitled losers only disliked it because they didn't like sad endings, and that an ending change would ruin games-as-art forever. Even as someone who doesn't really care for DMC, I cringed whenever I heard "oh you just can't handle black hair." When Arthur Gies was acting like he had made some kind of secret bet where he had to defend SimCity for a whole week to win a million dollars? That was pretty funny! Or when we heard that Sony would implement DRM too, just like MS, because this was simply the inevitable arc of technology and we all had to accept it. Even in the months leading up to all of this insanity, it was a running joke among the mods to post obvious examples of Polygon's descent into clickbait after their longform features (sadly) failed to produce hits, even when Kuchera was insisting that "clickbait" didn't exist.

But I never joined a hashtag campaign over any of this. I made fun of them or vociferously disagreed with them online for far longer than is humanly healthy, yeah. But I have no idea what such a campaign would have done, or accomplished, that would be reasonable in any way, shape, or form.


So, as someone who's spent the last week trying to become good at fighting with a ninja frog pokeyman, and desperately trying to pretend that Ganondorf will be top-tier this time, I... wasn't really offended by any of these articles that apparently were supposed to be insulting me.

But you know what? Not my place to say what offends someone. Okay.

But... that leads me the question: If you honestly only joined the 'gate over those articles... why join a hashtag campaign? What, exactly, are you honestly doing with that campaign? What have you accomplished? What are you hoping to accomplish? What things are you doing right now that you honestly think will make those accomplishments happen? How much 'gate-related time have you spent actually working towards those goals, in comparison to just... telling people online that it's not about (bad thing), it's about (good thing)?

Because saying "well I'm a gamer and I'm not a misogynist" is all well and good, but you have to understand that most (if not all) of the people who wrote and agreed with those articles are "gamers" in the traditional sense as well, and they certainly don't think that all gamers are misogynists either. It's also not really accomplishing anything as a movement. So if you and the rest of the moderates aren't really moving anything forward, then the only visible action is from the people who are trying to accomplish a goal; and boy, do they have "interesting" goals. And so far, the only actions being taken are by the "crazies" who you claim don't represent you. That's why the only news being reported on is "person violently harassed out of their home after criticizing an internet movement," or "B-list actor thinks that small academic group that nobody has ever heard of is a government-funded conspiracy to control gaming."


So far, all of the moderates I've seen don't seem to be really doing anything with even a fraction of the effort as the "fringe that doesn't represent us." All I ever see of them is affirmations that they're respectable human beings (which is great, but I and most other people honestly weren't impugning you on that), or rushing to the defense of a nine-letter nonsense word whenever someone associated with it does something terrible.

What do you call members of a movement who don't actually... move?

 

[redder]

This is extremely unhealthy. Please just go to sleep.

Please boogie get some sleep.

Could a mod temporarily lock this thread for a while?

 

[freddy]

But... that leads me the question: If you honestly only joined the 'gate over those articles... why join a hashtag campaign? What, exactly, are you honestly doing with that campaign? What have you accomplished? What are you hoping to accomplish? What things are you doing right now that you honestly think will make those accomplishments happen? How much 'gate-related time have you spent actually working towards those goals, in comparison to just... telling people online that it's not about (bad thing), it's about (good thing)?

Is there anyone really left in this thread to answer you?

 

[SwissLion]

Boogie as much as I disagree with you I don't want to see you get hurt. Sleeping pills are dangerous shit. Nobody will begrudge you if you get some sleep and address us when you wake up. Stay safe.

 

[tonysidaway]

Could we _please_, for the sake of common human decency, stop discussing whether or not the disgusting behaviour over the past month and a half can be excused as a reaction to opinion articles _written in the midst of those very same inhuman, false and harmful attacks on women in gaming, and in response to them?_

Firstly, it's a logical impossibility. Secondly, that kind of response has only served to underline and emphasise the need of every single person in gaming to denounce this thoroughly nasty and _ongoing_ behaviour.

 

[boogie2988]

yeah let me apologize again for my posts in this thread this morning. If that video I posted today wasn't an indication I'm not in my right mind right now and its entirely because of this conversation that's taking place in this thread, on twitter and elsewhere.

I'm beginning to slowly understand that I'll never have what I am fighting so desperately for in this lifetime and GG and the events surrounding it are proving it. This is literally killing me inside.

It also sucks that I've sacrificed a large portion of my life and career to trying to get those things. Inlcusiveness in gaming. Integrity in gaming. Integrity in how its reported. Kindness. Love of the hobby. Erasings its stigma.

I'll not live to see a single one of those things and there are tons of people on every side who are going to absolutely make sure of that.

I hope that can help you understand why I've completely lost my shit right now.

I'm gonna go and try to regroup not be part of this and if you guys could understand that I'll compulsively check this thread tomorrow when I wake up a few times and it would do me worlds of good to NOT see you talking about me and instead talking about other aspects of this whole thing it could really help me start clawing my way back to sanity. thank you.

I understand you think I fucked up. I understand you think I'm stupid. I understand that you think I'm shitty. I don't know what else there is to say and it really seems like we're just repeating ourselves at this point so lets start calling other people shitty for a while and give me a chance to regroup. I promise I won't forget how awful some of you think I am in that meantime. Not that I could forget if I tried.

Again, please forgive me. I'm not my best right now. In fact, thinking back on it, this might well be my worst.

 

[Corpekata]

The conspiracy stuff is what put me off. Just so much of it and it so widely believed. Even today you'll still see people talking about sex for reviews. Phil Fish doxxed himself. No, wait, we can use his doxx for a new conspiracy, so now his doxx is real.

That and a lot of them are against political interests and want to be painted as neutral who then ate up literally everything from other people with clear political interests.

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

Whoa, this is quite the meltdown. I'd really recommend following other people's suggestions in taking a break for a while.

That being said, I'm not on top of this thread 100%, but I really haven't seen people calling Boogie a piece of shit, as he says happens in dozens of posts. Critique of questionable statements, sure, but certainly nothing warranting being hyperbolic enough to claim that one's career is worthless and they should be put out of their misery.

 

[Orayn]

can't take a break as long as I feel compelled to defend myself and this thread keeps giving me plenty fo reasons. I'm currently up to a quaddruple dose of my sleeping pills and i still can't drag myself away from this cmputer even tho i did fall asleep at if for about 3 minutes and that was nice.

its difficult that people who really like me would call me stupid and ignorant and willfully obtuse but i guess maybe you're right but i'd never say those things to people i like. I'd just try to reason with them without the name calling or insulting language but i guess i can't hold otherse to that standard.

If it helps, I'll request a voluntary ban from GAF to make sure I'm not contributing to this stuff for a while. I really don't want my actions to have this effect on someone if I can help it.

 

[jschreier]

Jesus man do you have a buzzer go off whenever Kotaku is mentioned? It's like there's bat signal goes up or something.

I have been reading this thread more regularly since GG led to Brianna Wu having to flee her home, and I felt compelled to chime in when we were accused of doing something we didn't do.

FWIW, Jim Sterling's thoughts here echo my own, specifically this tweet. It's embarrassing that this is still going on, and perhaps the biggest shame in all of this is that we're no longer having real conversations about actual ethical issues in games media.

 

[boogie2988]

If it helps, I'll request a voluntary ban from GAF to make sure I'm not contributing to this stuff for a while. I really don't want my actions to have this effect on someone if I can help it.

nah no need, i'm taking care of the problem myself. getting some sleep. thanks for being considerate.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

But... that leads me the question: If you honestly only joined the 'gate over those articles... why join a hashtag campaign? What, exactly, are you honestly doing with that campaign? What have you accomplished? What are you hoping to accomplish? What things are you doing right now that you honestly think will make those accomplishments happen? How much 'gate-related time have you spent actually working towards those goals, in comparison to just... telling people online that it's not about (bad thing), it's about (good thing)?

Hashtag campaigns literally have one enormous benefit: they're amazing for getting a message across extremely LOUDLY. Due to how twitter trends work it's an extremely effective way to gain a "booming" voice within social media not allowed by essentially any other form (tumblr's unreliable, facebook's backwards in this stuff)

hashtag campaigns are great for any subject or issue that literally relies on one primary goal: getting more exposure/people on board.

This is why they're often used for things such as making sexual harassment visible. (people often argue it "doesn't happen", so a hashtag with thousands of people joining in sharing their experience has "value".)


If a hashtag campaign targets specific people however ... it can literally be a tool to make harassment bombs easier. (this is the big problem most people have with #GG, even if it isn't "about" harassment, it sure as hell has increased the number of visible harassment cases.)