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[Neoriceisgood]

I don't think anyone is arguing that every single individual person that sees merrit with GG is an absolute harassing monster incapable of good.

As a whole though, it's entire existence has been an outright mess though.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I'm not really going to post here much anymore, simply to say that I find is depressing how eager people are to write off large groups of people, a multi headed hydra, as one thing, and 'oh well' to all the innocent people that get caught in the cross fire. I don't believe fighting a war is the correct response, and my approach would still result in moderates 'winning' over the extremists who are using things as cover.

I will still post this thought.

Gamergate, the same movement that is just a harassment campaign filled with what some people here have said are 'just extremists', found the identity of the person who sent Anita the death threats, surprise he is apparently not a 'Gamergatter' but regardless on that point? They have notified her and given the information to the police.

https://twitter.com/bubblesort1/status/521650923672993792

I hope this makes some people think twice about their absolutist stances, and realized that people like myself, or Boogie, are trying to end the conflict and remove cover for harassers all the same as you are.

So, the score is one decent thing they might've done versus months of unending abuse and accusations of impropriety, corruption, and other terrible things.

Get back to me when Gamergate isn't accusing every women who's being harassed of "false flagging."

 

[besada]

Aw shit Larry Correia was involved in that? I didn't know. Damnit, the Monster Hunter International books are a guilty pleasure.

Well, ya know, just don't read any of his interviews and they can continue to be

 

[Nekofrog]

The thing is that he can't use #GG in the way he wants to. At this point #GG is equated with misogyny and harassment everywhere that is reasonable, including mass media outlets. It's pointless to do anything with #GG at this point, the well has been poisoned.

oh, i know.

but he doesn't deserve to be shit on for his opinion. nobody does. that's what separates #gg's and everyone else right now, #gg wants to shit on you and shut you down for not seeing things the way they do.

 

[LordJim]

This kind of news coverage reminds me of '4chan exploding vans'.
So silly

 

[besada]

I hope this makes some people think twice about their absolutist stances, and realized that people like myself, or Boogie, are trying to end the conflict and remove cover for harassers all the same as you are.

Hey, if this turns out to actually be true, I'd gladly applaud those #gamergaters that did the leg work. So far, there's not much in the way of evidence, but seriously, if the FBI bag this creep based off their information, then kudos to those involved.

 

[More_Badass]

Well, ya know, just don't read any of his interviews and they can continue to be

Was reading Wikipedia on this Vox Day guy
Wow...

In June, Beale used the SFWAuthors Twitter feed to post a link to his blog, in which he referred to African-American author N. K. Jemisin as "an educated, but ignorant half-savage, with little more understanding of what it took to build a new literature"

Jemisin later commented that "if you represent the civilization to which I’m supposed to aspire then I am all savage, and damned proud of it."

 

[Zen]

I don't think anyone is arguing that every single individual person that sees merrit with GG is an absolute harassing monster incapable of good.

As a whole though, it's entire existence has been an outright mess though.

Agreed on both points, but the problem comes when people use the actions of minorities within a group movement to paint everyone. It's kind of the same bullshit that happened with some people making threats against Bioware devs during the Mass Effect 3 drama It only stratifies people and makes dialogue impossible. There are many people on gamer gate who are against harassment, there are actual real live breathing feminists on GamerGate. Calling them the very things they aren't doesn't solve anything. Empowering good people while denouncing bad people (and encouraging people from within gamer gate to do the same) while giving a platform to discuss legitimate concerns is what will de-escalate this situation. Like all those people who got 'suckered in' by the games journalism stuff regardless of witch hunting and whatnot, the best way to deal wkith them isn't to lump them in with the crazies, pacify their concerns while working towards a dialogue against harassment. That why so many gamer gaters applauded when The Escapist released their updated ethics code, there are people on that side who care about that stuff and don't support harassment. We might disagree with their priorities, but that doesn't change that they exist.

I honestly think people are going to look at this development and say 'oh yeah well gamer gate has done a lot of shitty things (they have)' so this makes our stance on them ok.

Well, my suggestion would be this, you can do the right thing now, or you can sit back and wait until some scoreboard in your head balances out because you feel like you're owed something. This critique absolutely goes for both sides because gamer-gate on balance is probably more guilty of it, but I see it happening on both sides a lot.

Anyway you've always had very good posts in this thread, hope everything works out in the end.

Hey, if this turns out to actually be true, I'd gladly applaud those #gamergaters that did the leg work. So far, there's not much in the way of evidence, but seriously, if the FBI bag this creep based off their information, then kudos to those involved.

That's encouraging to hear.

 

[Xanezz]

Hey not sure if this is common knowledge but I cant find info about it, boogie got banned a few minutes ago, I noticed that when I was reading through the stuff he posted earlier today.

Anyone can enlighten me? Aplogies again if I'm missing something here.

 

[besada]

Was reading Wikipedia on this Vox Day guy
Wow...

Yeah, Vox is a special kind of racist, sexist douchebag. He really swings for the stands.

 

[MYeager]

Well, ya know, just don't read any of his interviews and they can continue to be

Sounds like a good plan!

I hope this makes some people think twice about their absolutist stances, and realized that people like myself, or Boogie, are trying to end the conflict and remove cover for harassers all the same as you are.

I think if you and Boogie are really interested in opening a broader discussion of consumer reporting ethics and video games, which I think is certainly an interesting topic especially as the medium moves more away from niche sites to a broader community and youtube driven culture, then you'd have a better job being heard using a different tag than one that has been used like that one has. I applaud the attempt, but when you have people planning 'Operations' against 'The Enemy' as part of your movement it's hard to be heard over all the confusion and anger associated with it.

 

[Suzushiiro]

A big difference between "SJW" and the other labels you mentioned is that "SJW" started out as an insult & got adopted by a few people out of spite.

It's essentially used to encompass a ton of different groups that care about various social issues.

liberal/progressive being "insults" is similar to people using "Secular" as an insult, there's nothing inherently bad about the words unless you're extremely conservative to begin with.

I'm not gonna go into your group-level diagnosis cause that seems to be extremely sketchy territory.

Yeah, the key word in "Social Justice Warrior" is "Warrior"- it implies that the person is much more interested in playing the part of a victim and/or white knight fighting evil than they are in actually making the world a better place for anyone except maybe themselves. The term was initially created to separate shitty social justice activists from good ones. I've always preferred the term "Social Revenge Warrior" myself, as it makes it much more clear what the problem with the person the label is being applied to is.

But yeah, the problem is that "SJW" has for many come to mean "anyone who makes any social justice-related statement that I disagree with."

 

[antigoon]

"SJW" never had any merit. It's always been a gross descriptor.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

"Skeleton" never had any merit. It's always been a gross descriptor.

Hihi. Sorry, this filter really brightened my day. I need this thing once I geht back home.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I honestly think people are going to look at this and say 'oh yeah well gamer gate has done a lot of shitty things (they have)' so this makes our stance on them ok.

Anyway you've always had very good posts in this thread, hope everything works out in the end.

I've mentioned this before, but my objections to #GG are primarily about it being extremely conspiratorial & reactionary in nature.

Neogaf actually had a fairly civil and interesting thread on game journalism that took an absolute nosedive when GG happened.

Personally I find this more objectionable than anything GG's "discovered" in the last month:

Yeah, the key word in "Social Justice Warrior" is "Warrior"- it implies that the person is much more interested in playing the part of a victim and/or white knight fighting evil than they are in actually making the world a better place for anyone except maybe themselves. The term was initially created to separate shitty social justice activists from good ones. I've always preferred the term "Social Revenge Warrior" myself, as it makes it much more clear what the problem with the person the label is being applied to is.

But yeah, the problem is that "SJW" has for many come to mean "anyone who makes any social justice-related statement that I disagree with."

It has for a while tbh, as someone who's extremely active on TUMBLR I'm usually ahead of the curve on this stuff.

The big issue with "SJW" is that it conflates every single person who cares about any social issue in any way at all into a single group.

As I've mentioned before, a lot of people who use the term "SJW" on tumblr can't even distinguish TERFS, intersectional feminists & neo nazis.

 

[Sakwoff]

Hihi. Sorry, this filter really brightened my day. I need this thing once I geht back home.

There is also this wonderful thing: http://www.beesgo.biz/chrome.html

Have been using it for a while. Always sure to bring delight when browsing gaming communities.

Edit: It was actually made by Zoe long before any of this bullshit started. Heh. The more you know. The internet is small.

Edit2: I mean the ferengizer thingy, to make that clear.

 

[Mael]

I've mentioned this before, but my objections to #GG are primarily about it being extremely conspiratorial & reactionary in nature.

Neogaf actually had a fairly civil and interesting thread on game journalism that took an absolute nosedive when GG happened.

Personally I find this more objectionable than anything GG's "discovered" in the last month:

Oh I remember that one, seriously that physically hurt me.
It's also probably the closest I've ever been in wishing physical violence on a journalist too.

 

[meijiko]

The harassment is only a small part of GamerGate's problems, though. Putting aside the fact that it literally started with harassment of a woman, every time I go on the #GamerGate tag (a habit I should really break, for my own mental health), I see the following:

-Claims that SJW are evil, corrupt, etc.
-Any time a woman reports harassment/threats, there's always a fair few that claim false flag
-Strange and baffling conspiracy theories, usually targeting a "feminist agenda"
-Support of Milo
-Holding up Sommers as a "real feminist" unlike those evil SJW feminazis

These are admittedly far less serious than actual harassment, but all of these points just show to me that GamerGate is not a movement that I can get behind, at all. It just doesn't sound like a safe place for me, even if I care about games and want to see the maturation of games journalism.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Oh I remember that one, seriously that physically hurt me.
It's also probably the closest I've ever been in wishing physical violence on a journalist too.

I find that single graph more worthwhile of a month long twitter revolt than anything #GG seems to be upset about.

It is literally an insult to humanity.

 

[CLEEK]

But until people can correctly distinguish between neo nazis, TERFS and intersectional feminists I won't hold much hope for that. (and yes I've seen people confuse nazi accounts on tumblr for "SJW"s.)

Well, there's the StormfrontorSJW subreddit, which take comments from Neo-nazis and and Tumblr/Jezebel, and you have to guess which is which. More often than not, it's impossible. Horseshoe theory and all.

 

[Sakwoff]

The harassment is only a small part of GamerGate's problems, though. Putting aside the fact that it literally started with harassment of a woman, every time I go on the #GamerGate tag (a habit I should really break, for my own mental health), I see the following:

-Claims that SJW are evil, corrupt, etc.
-Any time a woman reports harassment/threats, there's always a fair few that claim false flag
-Strange and baffling conspiracy theories, usually targeting a "feminist agenda"
-Support of Milo
-Holding up Sommers as a "real feminist" unlike those evil SJW feminazis

These are admittedly far less serious than actual harassment, but all of these points just show to me that GamerGate is not a movement that I can get behind, at all. It just doesn't sound like a safe place for me, even if I care about games and want to see the maturation of games journalism.

Yip. This is why I do not buy into this "moderates" stuff at all. Almost every "moderate" I've read has said some pretty objectionable stuff. Not necessarily with malicious intent, but certainly showing ignorance.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

I have an honest question here:

With this fiasco more and more getting the attention of mainstream media like MSNBC does an actor like Adam Baldwin, who's career has seen better days, realize how this could potentially hurt his image and reputation? If this gets bigger then word will get out and I'm thinking more than one producer/director won't want to work with a misoginistic nut job like Baldwin due to the negative press surrounding him. To this day nary a day goes by without him tweeting about #gamergate.

What does GAF think?

 

[Kris Pistofferson]

A big difference between "SJW" and the other labels you mentioned is that "SJW" started out as an insult & got adopted by a few people out of spite.

It's essentially used to encompass a ton of different groups that care about various social issues.

liberal/progressive being "insults" is similar to people using "Secular" as an insult, there's nothing inherently bad about the words unless you're extremely conservative to begin with.

I'm not gonna go into your group-level diagnosis cause that seems to be extremely sketchy territory.

No big whoop. I'm not trying to argue with anyone but just posting from my own perspective. I don't know if it means anything but I'm not in my 20s speaking from a social sciences degree. I'm 37 with a history of drug abuse and the tons of the manipulative and highly antisocial people that follow in such circles. I'm only saying that, at a certain point, you learn to spot certain behaviors.

But, just to be clear, I'm not at all suggesting that Anita Sarkeesian or Brianne Wu are part of it. Like I said, I'm a big fan of Anita Sarkeesian's videos and fully agree with her sentiment. What I am saying is that it's not a matter of political affiliation but of character disturbance in those people that are sending threats to them. People often mistakenly assume that genuine full-blown clinical psychopathy is something affects one-in-a-million people when it affects one-in-a-hundred people.

And that's a huge number of people.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Well, there's the StormfrontorSJW subreddit, which take comments from Neo-nazis and and Tumblr/Jezebel, and you have to guess which is which. More often than not, it's impossible. Horseshoe theory and all.

I often find these tests kind of disingenuous as they often rely on:

1. people not understanding the issues well enough to notice nuances that make a big difference.

2. people defining SJW so broadly that TERFS are included, which has little to do with SJ as they're essentially the least intersectional (and thus least "Social justice") feminist group imaginable.

There was a test like this about "lad's magazines" & "rapist quotes" too, apparently a huge number of people couldn't distinguish the quotes at all,
I managed to flawlessly seperate them because I actually know the difference between victim blaming & BDSM language.

 

[Mael]

I find that single graph more worthwhile of a month long twitter revolt than anything #GG seems to be upset about.

It is literally an insult to humanity.

I guess if a woman made this they could direct their anger toward this absolute work of art.
Seriously I have no idea how to make this graph using a regular database and normal reporting tools.
I still think I'd be fired on the spot if I ever produced something like that.

 

[SmZA]

Boogie's banned? That kinda saddens me, he seemed like a genuine person who was having a difficult time processing the situation he'd mired himself in, and sadly opted to stay in the muck. I hope it's just a temp-ban.

 

[Galactic Fork]

I often find these tests kind of disingenuous as they often rely on:

1. people not understanding the issues well enough to notice nuances that make a big difference.

2. people defining SJW so broadly that TERFS are included, which has little to do with SJ as they're essentially the least intersectional (and thus least "Social justice") feminist group imaginable.

There was a test like this about "lad's magazines" & "rapist quotes" too, apparently a huge number of people couldn't distinguish the quotes at all,
I managed to flawlessly seperate them because I actually know the difference between victim blaming & BDSM language.

I just went to the subreddit, and felt pretty much the same.

 

[Quote]

Boogie's banned? That kinda saddens me, he seemed like a genuine person who was having a difficult time processing the situation he'd mired himself in, and sadly opted to stay in the muck. I hope it's just a temp-ban.

It might have been a self-requested ban. He was stating he wanted to stay away and think over these things and this thread was making it hard for him to distance himself.

 

[SmZA]

Good call on his part if true.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Is there a filter that changes to word "agenda"? Cause I swear if I ever read something like "You just write this to push your feminist agenda!" I'm gonna freak out. Or cry

 

[LiegeWaffle]

Jim, I hope you will stay in the industry. Jimquisition is one of my favorite shows about games, and it would be a shame if there was one less games reviewer whom I know I can trust.

The fact that one of the most vocal game journalists talking about journalist ethics in the games media is now considering leaving speaks volumes to how much GamerGate is not about ethics.

I genuinely feel like the tone of this entire last few months could have been different if he hadn't come to be one of the few visible 'leaders' in the thing.

The thing is, when you start with Adam Baldwin as one of identifiable leaders, tweeting link to the IA video of that nature, the subsequent people joining your cause would almost certainly be consistent with that. It was pretty much doomed from the beginning.

Gamergate seems to be getting more mainstream press lately. If the goal was to set back the mainstream acceptance of the hobby back 15 years, this campaign is doing a pretty good job. As a person known by friends, coworkers and family to play games it is embarrassing but I'm glad it's getting coverage by journalist outside of the industry because trying to cover this thing from within has to be kind of terrifying for any gaming press outlet.

It's frankly embarrassing that video games get wide media coverage only when bad things happen. But I think this will change eventually, with more and more non-gaming outlets starting to cover games in some way.

I like how even if you take the view that GG is "really" about Leigh Alexander's article making gamers look bad, the mainstream media portrayal of GG will probably have a larger negative effect on gaming's "image" than her article could ever have had.

True. If anyone "killed" gamers, it was GamerGate itself, not Leigh Alexander.

Of course it needs an "operation" name.

That's how you know it's totally not a raid.

 

[Zen]

I would imagine that Boogie was banned by request or the mods perceiving it as doing him a favor, to which I might not argue is a flawed premise. Repeatedly making suicidal statements is extreme, and trying to separate him from of of his sources of engaging with the stressor (temporarily) is likely a good call.

This is mostly true. The logs are here.

So he did go around and mostly try to get people to not harass her, good to see. I really don't think that he's a bad person.

 

[Corpekata]

Given the sleeping pills talk and the death wishes a self ban or 48 hour temp ban would probably have been a good idea so that he'd go to bed like he talked about.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Hey not sure if this is common knowledge but I cant find info about it, boogie got banned a few minutes ago, I noticed that when I was reading through the stuff he posted earlier today.

Anyone can enlighten me? Aplogies again if I'm missing something here.

To be honest, I'd hope one of the mods did it to give him the space he says he needs. He said he was - essentially - unable to look away from this thread, or to stop posting to "defend" himself and that it was making him ill. Whatever I might personally think of his position, or the way he put himself over here, taking him at face value on that suggests his continued participation here was really unhealthy for him. Maybe it's not the case here, but I'd hope someone gave him a temp ban to force a time-out and make him step away and get the break he needed.

 

[besada]

I have an honest question here:

With this fiasco more and more getting the attention of mainstream media like MSNBC does an actor like Adam Baldwin, who's career has seen better days, realize how this could potentially hurt his image and reputation? If this gets bigger then word will get out and I'm thinking more than one producer/director won't want to work with a misoginistic nut job like Baldwin due to the negative press surrounding him. To this day nary a day goes by without him tweeting about #gamergate.

What does GAF think?

Baldwin is already pretty well known for his political opinions. I suspect his crazy time posts about Obama and Ebola are more likely to damage him than #gg.

 

[CLEEK]

I often find these tests kind of disingenuous as they often rely on:

1. people not understanding the issues well enough to notice nuances that make a big difference.

2. people defining SJW so broadly that TERFS are included, which has little to do with SJ as they're essentially the least intersectional (and thus least "Social justice") feminist group imaginable.

This post is patronising as hell. Take a look at the subreddit. You don't need to understand context, or Feminism 101, or intersectionality or kyriarchy theory to know that these 'progressives' are bigoted as fuck, to the point their comments are indistinguishable from self proclaimed neo-nazis.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

This post is patronising as hell. Take a look at the subreddit. You don't need to understand context, or Feminism 101, or intersectionality or kyriarchy theory to know that these 'progressives' are bigoted as fuck, to the point their comments are indistinguishable from self proclaimed neo-nazis.

Point 2 applies far more to the link. I agree that a lot of the quotes shown are indistinguishable from neo-nazis. (The case I had in mind had someone going on about "Racial purity" though, that was a clear and undeniable example of case #1) But they're generally not from people I'd consider intersectional.

I'm sorry I patronised you ~<3

I just went to the subreddit, and felt pretty much the same.

Almost *ALL* of the incredibly toxic "SJW" people I've seen have one thing in common:

they give rat's ass about intersectionality and are obsessively convinced only their own subgroup suffers from "The one true oppression". They actually end up quite similar to MRA groups (known for being largely white and hetero) due to their outright denial of other types of oppression.

I actually frequently see TERFs attack trans activists and black power supporters attack black feminists/womanists because they see intersecitonality as a poison diluting their own "more important" issue. (I actually find these sorts of interactions both troubling and fascinating, and find "SJW" a troubling term exactly because it makes this horrible element of social justice invisible.)

 

[Kris Pistofferson]

Anyone who doesn't think exactly as you do isn't a feminist. OK.

I didn't actually say that but I hope you notice that that's actually a highly manipulative comment.

That point I made about disabled people comes straight from a disabled person's view during this summer's Slutwalk here in Iceland.

 

[Xanezz]

It might have been a self-requested ban. He was stating he wanted to stay away and think over these things and this thread was making it hard for him to distance himself.

Given the sleeping pills talk and the death wishes a self ban or 48 hour temp ban would probably have been a good idea so that he'd go to bed like he talked about.

To be honest, I'd hope one of the mods did it to give him the space he says he needs. He said he was - essentially - unable to look away from this thread, or to stop posting to "defend" himself and that it was making him ill. Whatever I might personally think of his position, or the way he put himself over here, taking him at face value on that suggests his continued participation here was really unhealthy for him. Maybe it's not the case here, but I'd hope someone gave him a temp ban to force a time-out and make him step away and get the break he needed.

Fair, I was just confused since I couldn't see anything wrong with his last few posts. All the best to him, he only means well.

 

[VSigma]

It might have been a self-requested ban. He was stating he wanted to stay away and think over these things and this thread was making it hard for him to distance himself.

Considering the reason he was given for being banned, I very much doubt it was self-requested.

 

[Mael]

Considering the reason he was given for being banned, I very much doubt it was self-requested.

You know that?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Considering the reason he was given for being banned, I very much doubt it was self-requested.

What was the reason? I don't know how you check.

 

[VSigma]

What was the reason? I don't know how you check.

He posted it in a pastebin on Twitter moments ago.

Your time at NeoGAF has been spent consistently apologizing for -- and disingenuously ignoring the actions of -- a movement of harassment and hate, while diverting as much attention as possible away from the issues at hand and toward yourself. You are not the victim here for being thought less of in your tacit support of disgusting and illegal behavior.

Individuals standing up for victims continue to receive thousands of hate messages and death threats, and a third member of the video game industry is forced out of her home and into hiding. People you claim are your friends are leaving social media behind in the wake of mass harassment by the movement you are championing. These are your people. This is your movement.

As you've also expressed a strong desire to leave NeoGAF but continue to participate, you'll now have some more free time to reflect on your decisions of the past several weeks.

-NeoGAF Administration

Here's the link for anyone interested: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ypv079c1

 

[Quote]

Considering the reason he was given for being banned, I very much doubt it was self-requested.

Ah, I see it on his Twitter. Thanks.

 

[Mael]

He posted it in a pastebin on Twitter moments ago.



Here's the link for anyone interested: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=ypv079c1

Well I guess that was one of the possible outcome.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

He posted it in a pastebin on Twitter moments ago.

*whistles*

Perhaps not a time-out for his own sake, then...

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I'm not too surprised, I've seen people in smashgaf get bans over posts a lot "calmer" than his.

 

[FoneBone]

This post is patronising as hell. Take a look at the subreddit. You don't need to understand context, or Feminism 101, or intersectionality or kyriarchy theory to know that these 'progressives' are bigoted as fuck, to the point their comments are indistinguishable from self proclaimed neo-nazis.

I looked and I have to agree with Neorice and Galactic Fork above. The bigoted "SJW" quotes seem to be either TERFs, taken out of context (a trans woman says she's scared of cis men? WHY WOULD THAT BE?), or obvious satire.

 

[More_Badass]

Edit: nvm, saw VSigma's post

 

[VSigma]

The part that entirely boggles my mind is the "support of disgusting and illegal behavior". He's never condoned such actions, in fact, he condemns the harassment and doxxing on both sides of this situation. As we all should, because harassment of any kind is purely unacceptable, a large reason as to why I'm staying neutral.