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[Son of Cervantes]

Wow, I can't believe Boogie got banned. At first I thought it was self-imposed, but not only is it not self-imposed, it's a permanent ban. That's really sad, I love that big guy.

Re: The Bayonetta review, I don't really have much respect for Gies as a reviewer or a journalist. Obviously, he's perfectly free to express his opinions regarding the game (every review is inherently a subjective statement based on the reviewer's tastes). That said, his analysis seems to be purely surface level, not particularly well thought out, and ultimately unconvincing.

tbh, knowing his history, I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote it as clickbait, knowing that he'd get a reaction out of it. I say this knowing his history; he's not exactly some shy, wilting flower who is offended by sexual language or commentary.

I'm pretty cynical about everything posted on Polygon, though. It's an awful site.

 

[partyphone]

even if you're being charitable to gamergate and dismiss all the hateful things as products of fringe actors the movement is still deeply troubled and flawed. they clearly do not know what corruption or ethics are. one of their main tactics is actually the opposite of ethical journalism. threatening to cut off revenue from sites unless they capitulate is not the moral high ground they think it is.

 

[MYeager]

This industry isn't ready to be considered as art.

It's certainly shown that there are people who are consumers that aren't ready for it to hear the type of criticism or discussion of other art, or even other entertainment mediums. I don't think Ebert was never asked to hold his personal social commentary when discussing what he thought about a movie.

 

[More_Badass]

its shown me gamers as a whole cannot discuss and debate anything of real substance without it resorting to a smear campaign, harassment, or demonization. This industry isn't ready to be considered as art.

I disagree whole-heartedly. Games are works of art and creativity. Yes, even Call of Duty. Some games are more artistic than others, with a focus to deliever some message or evoke an emotion through narrative or visuals or an art style or themes, but all games are art.

Those people that damage discussion don't detract and diminish those that do discuss games with real substance and depth.

 

[vcc]

So thats why I said maybe those people who DO care about ethics should abandon it now, because now the conversation has been set, and much like american politics, liberal and conservative, once you're branded as either, many people ...

So here is the problem with reform of the game press.

It is barely surviving.

This is because jouralism and the entire writing industry is shrinking and barely treading water.

What you propose requires a huge restructuring of how the game press works and lots of non game ad money as well as a fresh crop of writters who arent associated with the game industry AND DONT WANT TO BE. See the problem? The ad money for it doesn't exist and the job is so shitty that only people who desprately want to be a part of the 'games industry' would do it.

Being a 'enthusiast' press means by definition it's a compromised industry and the fact all the money is shit means the news outlers are easy to sway by the rich and much more massive true games industry.

Despite this, many folks in the games press do a decent job and outright bought reviews are few. Generally it's just rating systems that don't give lower than 7 which is the problem and gamers have adjusted with the scale anyways. 7= mediocre in games while pretty good in movies.

 

[Quote]

Has this been posted? http://cathodedebris.tumblr.com/pos...apists-alexander-marcis-has-been-crowdfunding

I don't know anything about The Escapist or it's people. This might be conspiracy territory.

 

[L Thammy]

Wow, I can't believe Boogie got banned. At first I thought it was self-imposed, but not only is it not self-imposed, it's a permanent ban. That's really sad, I love that big guy.

Didn't know that happened. I read a few of the pages where he started posting, but it seemed like the thread exploded and I couldn't keep up.

The permaban is sad, but I do think it's for the best that he not discuss things here right now. It didn't seem like he's able to approach this topic in a healthy way.

 

[partyphone]

It's certainly shown that there are people who are consumers that aren't ready for it to hear the type of criticism or discussion of other art, or even other entertainment mediums. I don't think Ebert was never asked to hold his personal social commentary when discussing what he thought about a movie.

yep yep.

the audience for games is expanding, which means the number of people talking about games is increasing. so it's inevitable that people outside of the 18-35 year old white male demographic start criticizing games from their perspective. like anita taking a feminist perspective. her perspective. and this is very, very threatening to the 18-35 year old, mostly white, mostly male who has bought into the idea that gamer is an identity and that this identity looks and thinks a lot like them. gamergate is base tribalism.

 

[vcc]

It really is tragic. It's just heartbreaking to think that people dedicated to doing something positive are wasting their energy on an outlet that doesn't have that as a goal. Maybe some small portion of it does, but it gets buried under the amount of people with other interests.

I feel like the best thing would be for the moderates of Gamergate not just to leave, but to fracture. To separate based on their specific goals, to create group that clearly stand for certain things, and to state right from the beginning that there is certain sort of behaviour that they will not tolerate.

I feel the opossite. It was people who had a perverse idea of good trying to do objectively great harm and then losing interest.

 

[Kimawolf]

It's certainly shown that there are people who are consumers that aren't ready for it to hear the type of criticism or discussion of other art, or even other entertainment mediums. I don't think Ebert was never asked to hold his personal social commentary when discussing what he thought about a movie.

But the movie audience is definitely READY for it. and more importantly its a big enough industry where his kind of social commentary on some movies means nothing to the audience of something like transformers. Gaming is not that big yet. not big enough, and their audience isn't ready, so forcing it on them won't work. They could have all just said "this is not how we're operating, these women are here to stay". and left it at that, instead, two months later we're still getting articles.

And yes I do mean they should splinter off, doing something else because Gamergate is not viable.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

Didn't know that happened. I read a few of the pages where he started posting, but it seemed like the thread exploded and I couldn't keep up.

The permaban is sad, but I do think it's for the best that he not discuss things here right now. It didn't seem like he's able to approach this topic in a healthy way.

I would love it if he could come back and just not post in this thread, as he takes it way too personally and it seems to affect his mental health adversely.

 

[Lime]

I mean good as in the industry itselfi s changed "for good". It won't ever be what it was prior to this entire debacle happening. and I never said it was a good change by the way. I ended my statement saying "this shows the industry is not grown up, its not ready to be considered as art."

Thanks for the clarification. English isn't my native language, so "for the good" flew by me.

My games. I consider gaming my hobby like many others, I speak for MYSELF when i say i don't want political commentary in what i do for relaxation. I read news papers, discuss politics with friends, adversaries and others etc when I am wanting to do that,

But what games are you playing? There are a lot of politics in games. There is and should be room to discuss those things. You are totally allowed to ignore them and you're totally free to ignore the analysis and discussion of them. But you can't tell that others shouldn't talk about these politics that exist in the games we consume and the culture surrounding them. Something as seemingly innocent as Sim City can be used to make political statements or draw upon capitalistic conditions and frameworks. Or the culture surrounding something as innocent like Tetris also has political and social connotations, despite the game itself not referencing anything of political significance.

It's totally fine that you don't want to be bothered by politics in the entertainment you want to relax with. But you have to be fine with other people and groups and sites discussing these things.

 

[vcc]

But the movie audience is definitely READY for it. and more importantly its a big enough industry where his kind of social commentary on some movies means nothing to the audience of something like transformers. Gaming is not that big yet. not big enough, and their audience isn't ready, so forcing it on them won't work. They could have all just said "this is not how we're operating, these women are here to stay". and left it at that, instead, two months later we're still getting articles.

And yes I do mean they should splinter off, doing something else because Gamergate is not viable.

Games are worth more thab the theatre box office. If you count mobile its about as big as the whole movie biz. It's not small and fragile.

 

[MYeager]

But the movie audience is definitely READY for it. and more importantly its a big enough industry where his kind of social commentary on some movies means nothing to the audience of something like transformers. Gaming is not that big yet. not big enough, and their audience isn't ready, so forcing it on them won't work. They could have all just said "this is not how we're operating, these women are here to stay". and left it at that, instead, two months later we're still getting articles.

And yes I do mean they should splinter off, doing something else because Gamergate is not viable.

Aside from the fact that it's a multi-billion dollar industry with a wide audience, when do you think will gaming be big enough that it'll be ready for open critical discussion?

 

[L Thammy]

I feel the opossite. It was people who had a perverse idea of good trying to do objectively great harm and then losing interest.

I think that's true of, say, Adam Baldwin. But I don't think Gamergate is static. The ethical issues claimed were smokescreens, but the people who genuinely bought into them may have been genuinely concerned, they're just not fully aware that their concerns aren't the main one. That's part of why you get inconsistent claims about what Gamergate's goals are.

I would love it if he could come back and just not post in this thread, as he takes it way too personally and it seems to affect his mental health adversely.

I don't just mean that. It seemed - from what I could read - that he had reached a point where he wasn't able to tell the difference between verbal abuse and well-intentioned criticism. I think that's a bad state to be in when you're trying to talk about a heavy topic.

 

[Corpekata]

I don't really care that Macris backed someone's kickstarter, just like I don't really care about Patreon.

That said, I do think it's pretty clear that Marcis sourced his interviews in a questionable way given he was willing to feature people like Roguestar and Desborough. Don't think he's actually credit with the interviews but on Twitter he's basically said as much.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

I would love it if he could come back and just not post in this thread, as he takes it way too personally and it seems to affect his mental health adversely.

That's the problem. He was playing victim because people challenged his thoughts that he never really cleared up. He kept attacking himself and not the actual argument that was being laid down. I respect him and his opinions, but I'm not down with the whole "It doesn't matter what I say because you guys will all call it stupid and I'm a horrible person etc etc."

The fuck?

If you want change, peace, acceptability on both sides, aligning yourself with what is a hate movement with some loose definition of integrity and authentication in gaming is definitely not the right choice. We all know what gamergate could be what it actually has become. I don't even want to hear the argument about vocal minorities making it bad because clearly the majority is not doing anything to combat that.

It is what it is.

 

[vcc]

I think that's true of, say, Adam Baldwin. But I don't think Gamergate is static. The ethical issues claimed were smokescreens, but the people who genuinely bought into them may have been genuinely concerned, they're just not fully aware that their concerns aren't the main one. That's part of why you get inconsistent claims about what Gamergate's goals are.

The best you can do is support the outlets you think are ethical. I never visit kotaku and try and visit giant bomb when I can. After the gamespot Gerstmann incident I have also never visited gamespot.

 

[tonysidaway]

I hope the ladies involved understand that a few horrible people don't represent all gamers, and I hope the gamers understand that this conversation effectively is over. it's too late. Once real life was brought into it, it ended any chance of it being salvaged.

It started with real life harassment. It escalated when the thugs couldn't get the gaming press to connive in the harassment by exposing Zoe Quinn to their hate campaign. So the gaming press became a target, too, on the pretext of "ethics".

 

[Kimawolf]

Aside from the fact that it's a multi-billion dollar industry with a wide audience, when do you think will gaming be big enough that it'll be ready for open critical discussion?

I have no clue. but to me it's obvious its not now. Look at the last few months of "gates" and articles responding to the gates. Its more than mere denouncement. Its outright hate due to these people all being friends.

And I do hold the press to a higher standard by the by because they are press, journalists, they should have a higher standard of conversation than the fans. that's all i'm saying.

 

[Corpekata]

I don't think the average woman will feel like the average gamer endorses harrassment, but they will feel like it's not taken seriously. Just look at how big of an asshole Milo is being to women that have had threats right now and how a ton of gamers just think he's a fucking rock star.

 

[Family Fry]

Man, boogie isn't doing himself any favours retweeting a (dayum drops) five guys youtube video, seriously?

Maybe I'm late on this one, just catching up on it all and I'm forever amazed at what's happening and just how quick it moves from person to person.

 

[More_Badass]

I have no clue. but to me it's obvious its not now. Look at the last few months of "gates" and articles responding to the gates. Its more than mere denouncement. Its outright hate due to these people all being friends.

And I do hold the press to a higher standard by the by because they are press, journalists, they should have a higher standard of conversation than the fans. that's all i'm saying.

Yeah, but those people who hate doesn't represent the audience. My mother plays games, my dad is a gamer, my young brother is a gamer, my even younger cousin plays games, my friends plays games. The community and audience that plays games is so much bigger than those people that resort to "gates" and hate. It may not seem like that, but really it is.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

That's the problem. He was playing victim because people challenged his thoughts that he never really cleared up. He kept attacking himself and not the actual argument that was being laid down. I respect him and his opinions, but I'm not down with the whole "It doesn't matter what I say because you guys will all call it stupid and I'm a horrible person etc etc."

The fuck?

If you want change, peace, acceptability on both sides, aligning yourself with what is a hate movement with some loose definition of integrity and authentication in gaming is definitely not the right choice. We all know what gamergate could be what it actually has become. I don't even want to hear the argument about vocal minorities making it bad because clearly the majority is not doing anything to combat that.

It is what it is.

I absolutely agree that he was beating himself up for no reason, but I feel like a lot of people came off as though they were concern trolling him too. Not saying that was the case, but I'm sure it confused him because it seemed that way.

 

[Corpekata]

Man, boogie isn't doing himself any favours retweeting a (dayum drops) five guys youtube video, seriously?

Maybe I'm late on this one, just catching up on it all and I'm forever amazed at what's happening and just how quick it moves from person to person.

I don't see the issue with retweeting that. Video came out today.

 

[tonysidaway]

Something as seemingly innocent as Sim City can be used to make political statements or draw upon capitalistic conditions and frameworks. Or the culture surrounding something as innocent like Tetris also has political and social connotations, despite the game itself not referencing anything of political significance.

Tell me about it! Any Western European will know that feeling of surprise they had in Sim City 1 when all the people left as soon as you put the tax rate up to a decent level. The parameters seemed to have been set on American assumptions.

 

[tchocky]

David Jaffe on twitter now is criticising the MSNBC report for not giving GamerGates side of the story.

 

[CambriaRising]

Man, boogie isn't doing himself any favours retweeting a (dayum drops) five guys youtube video, seriously?

Whats the significance?

 

[tonysidaway]

I have no clue. but to me it's obvious its not now. Look at the last few months of "gates" and articles responding to the gates. Its more than mere denouncement. Its outright hate due to these people all being friends.

How many friends do you imagine Roger Ebert had in movies over his long career? How about book reviewers? Are they allowed to have social contacts with authors? Hate in this context is simply a symptom of ignorance.

 

[MYeager]

I have no clue. but to me it's obvious its not now. Look at the last few months of "gates" and articles responding to the gates. Its more than mere denouncement. Its outright hate due to these people all being friends.

And I do hold the press to a higher standard by the by because they are press, journalists, they should have a higher standard of conversation than the fans. that's all i'm saying.

Not sure what the size has to do with people in an industry knowing each other. Film critics know film makers. Car enthusiasts writers know car makers and racers. Press know politicians and their staff. Assuming gamers enjoy or read about any other product or medium how are they able to accept and rationalize criticism of any other product but not when it comes to video games? What makes gaming the exception?

 

[antigoon]

David Jaffe on twitter now is criticising the MSNBC report for not giving GamerGates side of the story.

I wonder what supporters of a hate movement have to say about their hate movement!

 

[JackDT]

Whats the significance?

It's not impossible that's its a coincidence but "Five Guys" was the title of of most forum and reddit topics about Zoe Quinn at start of #GamerGate, it's the title of a video about Zoe Quinn with ~million views, the IRC rooms about Zoe Quinn were called burdersandfries, etc.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Jaffe's a gater, huh....

not surprised

 

[Kimawolf]

How many friends do you imagine Roger Ebert had in movies over his long career? How about book reviewers? Are they allowed to have social contacts with authors? Hate in this context is simply a symptom of ignorance.

I don't think it matters if you're friends with someone. I think its your reaction to what happens to the friend when they are in distress that matters. it's like people defending Roman Polanski. to me he's a despicable human being, no matter of his "genius" but there were quite a few older reviewers who still supported him. For me that's enough to no longer trust their reviews.

 

[CambriaRising]

It's not impossible that's its a coincidence but "Five Guys" was the title of of most forum and reddit topics about Zoe Quinn at start of #GamerGate, it's the title of a video about Zoe Quinn with ~million views, the IRC rooms about Zoe Quinn were called burdersandfries, etc.

I'm inclined to believe it was a coincidence.

I'm sorry if the timing was weird, I just really like that guy and his content and I do everything I can to promote him and that vid is good

 

[JackDT]

Jaffe's a gater, huh....

not surprised

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1scq9gq

Seen some folks label me 'moderate' pro #gamergate. And for a bit I was ok with that because I do 100% support TWO of the pillars of GG: supporting quality journalism and calling out sites that run misleading and damaging clickbait articles. Hell, I've been super vocal about these two beliefs LONG before there was a GG. And I don't see that ever changing.

But I can no longer tolerate someone thinking I am even a MODERATE supporter of #gamergate. It's just got way too much toxicity and cruelty and mean-spiritedness embedded within and hovering around it. And I would just HATE for anyone to think I support ANY of the hateful, threatening, and misogynistic views some of its more vocal members espouse.

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sc0m7c

#2- I simply do not buy that bloggers (and even big game journalists) are affecting small devs ability to do work and/or make money. Every time I ask for proof I get a link to two things:

1-a game dev CEO who kickstarted a game and got told he was anti-women and such but refused to change his game (good for him)

2- an artist who had a boss who said he needed to change the box art (or some kind of art) for the game because some complained the woman in the image showed too much skin. To this I say: so fucking what? ...

3- The idea that a game journalist (and even more some fringe game blogger like @leighalexander- who I am on record as really, really, really disliking) can affect sales because they don't agree with the politics of a developer is laughable. ...

4- Related, I keep getting hit with people going ,'Well Jaffe, these journalists are SMEARING devs by saying bad shit about them!!!!'...ok, well welcome to the big leagues of putting something out in the world for public consumption and getting judged for it. ...

 

[Riposte]

David Jaffe on twitter now is criticising the MSNBC report for not giving GamerGates side of the story.

He was also arguing against GamerGate immediately before, probably worth pointing that out. (EDIT: Yes, worth pointing out given Labor's reaction lol)

Not sure what the size has to do with people in an industry knowing each other. Film critics know film makers. Car enthusiasts writers know car makers and racers. Press know politicians and their staff. Assuming gamers enjoy or read about any other product or medium how are they able to accept and rationalize criticism of any other product but not when it comes to video games? What makes gaming the exception?

Game criticism does have this weird thing in that it's been essentially fused with game journalism, which can put it closer to the marketing arm of a company than (established) film critics tend to be. I actually think a separation is in order, but that's a little unrealistic admittedly.

It's not impossible that's its a coincidence but "Five Guys" was the title of of most forum and reddit topics about Zoe Quinn at start of #GamerGate, it's the title of a video about Zoe Quinn with ~million views, the IRC rooms about Zoe Quinn were called burdersandfries, etc.

lol "IsSuchAThingEvenPossible".jpg

 

[Corpekata]

Jaffe's a gater, huh....

not surprised

He's not actually.

 

[tchocky]

Jaffe's a gater, huh....

not surprised

Not fully he recognises they are harassing women but he hates Kotaku because Patricia Hernandez called him a sexist for some twitter comments and he hates Leigh Alexander because she insulted twisted metal.

 

[antigoon]

He's not actually.

at the very least he seems sympathetic

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sc0m7c

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

It's totally fine that you don't want to be bothered by politics in the entertainment you want to relax with. But you have to be fine with other people and groups and sites discussing these things.

I think a huge part of it is that people lump talking about race or gender into 'making the game about social issues'.

 

[23qwerty]

Far too on point.

 

[tonysidaway]

I don't think it matters if you're friends with someone. I think its your reaction to what happens to the friend when they are in distress that matters. it's like people defending Roman Polanski. to me he's a despicable human being, no matter of his "genius" but there were quite a few older reviewers who still supported him. For me that's enough to no longer trust their reviews.

So the game journalists failed to support the disgusting attacks on Zoe Quinn, not because they are decent human beings, but because some of them had met her? Do carry on, want to borrow a shovel?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Hmm...

We'll see

 

[L Thammy]

I think a huge part of it is that people lump talking about race or gender into 'making the game about social issues'.

Seems very similar to the "I don't hate gay people, I just don't want politics in my games" bit.

Wow. I just discovered that the Vivian mascot that the Gamergaters designed ("see! We love girls, so we created this fictional girl to protect us from criticism!") is actually a reference to an old /v rape joke. and why so many used eggplant icons for their Twitter avatars.

Wait, since when was Piccolo dick a rape thing? I don't think the animated GIF itself strongly suggests one way or another.

 

[Lime]

Wow. I just discovered that the Vivian mascot that the Gamergaters designed ("see! We love girls, so we created this fictional girl to protect us from criticism!") is actually a reference to an old /v rape joke. and why so many used eggplant icons for their Twitter avatars.

I seriously can't believe these people.

@ Kimawolf: Did you see my post on the previous page?

But what games are you playing? There are a lot of politics in games. There is and should be room to discuss those things. You are totally allowed to ignore them and you're totally free to ignore the analysis and discussion of them. But you can't tell that others shouldn't talk about these politics that exist in the games we consume and the culture surrounding them. Something as seemingly innocent as Sim City can be used to make political statements or draw upon capitalistic conditions and frameworks. Or the culture surrounding something as innocent like Tetris also has political and social connotations, despite the game itself not referencing anything of political significance.

It's totally fine that you don't want to be bothered by politics in the entertainment you want to relax with. But you have to be fine with other people and groups and sites discussing these things.

 

[Corpekata]

at the very least he seems sympathetic

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sc0m7c

Well, I mean, I think he's doing there what a lot of the more sane people are doing. Recognizing issues with journalism and actually talking about the horrible people in GG. If the average GGer recognized how horrible people like Roguestar are, or how stupid bringing up Divinity Original Sin's cover for the Nth time is, they'd have my sympathy too.

I mean, I find it pretty bizaare I'm in a position where I'm finding Jaffe's opinion to be pretty reasonable, as I don't really like the guy, but I don't really take any issue with things said here.

 

[USC-fan]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1scq9gq

Yeah seem gamergate been hijack.

Started out just about the first thing. Really don't understand were all the other nonsense came from.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Seems very similar to the "I don't hate gay people, I just don't want politics in my games" bit.

Another point to hit is that people have a pre-conceived notion of what "should be" in a game. So it doesn't really matter if the core theme is civil rights. The dialogue turns into "there's someone on the dev team that turned it into the Million Man March, and we need to tell the devs not to listen to this person who is probably the only black on the team".

EDIT: if you think I'm being too hyper in my example, please do look up Jennifer Helper or even read the Pillars of Eternity kickstarter thread on this very website around the time it was "revealed" one of the concept artists was Asian.

 

[bonercop]

Yeah seem gamergate been hijack.

Started out just about the first thing. Really don't understand were all the other nonsense came from.

um, it started out with a small-time indie dev's sex life. it's always been a shitshow. It bothers me when people pretend otherwise.