#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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I hope you're not feeling like you're being piled on here DeadEarly, as I think this is actually some valuable discussion.

Perhaps "objective" was the wrong word to use.

What I meant, was that reviewers should be more concerned with adequately communicating if the reader would enjoy the game, as opposed to their own feelings on the matter.
I don't think a reviewer can communicate if their reader would enjoy the game as they don't know their reader, unless it happens to be a really personal thing. I mean, they can say things like: "If you enjoyed X, you'll likely enjoy this game.", which is certainly valuable. Still, the game has to stand on its own and the reviewer is only able to communicate what they thought about it.

No matter how you cut it, unless they're being untruthful or misleading, their own feelings on the matter is the review.
 
Some people really don't like Anthony Burch's twitter antics. I have to agree that he's pretty obnoxious, but it wouldn't stop me from buying this game.

Ah I see; so he "caved to the PC police" I guess? (the perspective of GG'ers, not my own)

I googled him, thanks.

That's a little better than them reacting to that joke in the game.. lol.. but that's not saying much.
 
Perhaps "objective" was the wrong word to use.

What I meant, was that reviewers should be more concerned with adequately communicating if the reader would enjoy the game, as opposed to their own feelings on the matter.
Maybe using a specific example will better illustrate the disconnect here. Lets go with Arthur Gies' review of Bayonetta, and ask a few questions. You can answer as many as you want but I'm most interested in #3 and #7:

1.Do you think Gies can't genuinely find the fanservice detrimental to the enjoyment of the game, and consider that relevant to his recommendation of it?

2.Do you think Gies can't reasonable conclude that much of his target audience would be bothered by it as well?

3.What is more subjective about saying "the fanservice detracts from this game" than saying "the story is awful" or "the voice acting is awful", or "the game is ugly"?

4. If Gies ignores what he considers to be a negative aspect, and gives the game its otherwise glowing review, how is that an honest review?

5.It is widely accepted for a movie critic to "penalize" a movie for creative decisions that they felt were detrimental to the experience. Do you accept that kind of criticism in movie reviews, and if so, why not accept it in games?

6.How would someone in "general games audience" outlet like Polygon review, say, a Dynasty Warriors game, without considering their own tastes and the tastes of their readers?

7. Can you paint us a picture of an objective review? Preferably including how you would score all the basic elements of a game including visual design, story, music, gameplay, etc.
 
You find a reviewer that reviews games close to your tastes and opinions and use that as a metric for if you'll potentially enjoy something.

Wow, that's very difficult!



wow! someone else had this great idea!

Yeah, this is how I decide whether to spend money on a visit to the cinema. I pick a few films that sounds promising, and read reviews by people I trust, factoring in what I know of their personal tastes. Isn't that how game reviewing works? Here I admit my ignorance, but if not, why not?
 
Again, what you're describing can't really be nailed down, and will vary from person to person. If I were reviewing a game with strong sexual content, it'd probably be reflected as such, but I wouldn't use such judging language.

As an aside, I can't think of much media with "one dimensional sex toys" outside of pornography and examples in which the trope was used to humorous effect, but someone would probably disagree pretty strongly on that.

Lots of reviews use language that's just as harsh to judge mechanics, so why would it be out of line to do the same for other types of content? If the reader doesn't feel the same way, it's pretty easy for them to discern that the author is presenting an opinion make up their own mind about what content will and won't bother them.

You seem to be worried that reviews will mislead consumers by presenting their own views as universal facts, but everything in a review that isn't a simple description of a game feature or tech spec has an implied "IMO" after it. That is an inherent feature.
 
Again, what you're describing can't really be nailed down, and will vary from person to person. If I were reviewing a game with strong sexual content, it'd probably be reflected as such, but I wouldn't use such judging language.

Ugh. A review IS an opinion, a "judgement". What's the difference between using "judging" language when talking about the controls and when talking about the game's tone and themes?

Aside from the fact that you personally care about one but not the other.
 
Talk about reviewing a game based on how they think readers would like it and not the reviewer's own subjective views is reminding me of that Game Informer Paper Mario TTYD thing that everyone criticized them for.
 
It's almost like there's a ton of reviews/reviewers/types of reviews at your disposal so you, yourself can figure out who has your interests and priorities in mind and be sure to follow up with those people? There is no shortage of gaming review sites and youtubes dude.

Yep. Or you could just watch a couple of gameplay videos on youtube or read some previews and if it looks good, rent it and if you like what you played, go buy it. This process has worked well for me for years. Can't remember the last time I read a review honestly.
 
Perhaps "objective" was the wrong word to use.

What I meant, was that reviewers should be more concerned with adequately communicating if the reader would enjoy the game, as opposed to their own feelings on the matter.

You are putting the onus in the wrong place. A reviewer can only give their own sibjective opinion. It's uo to the reader to see if they find value in it and reas the reviewers they find value in.
 
Sometimes I'm wondering if people just confuse "informed" & "objective" with regarding to how reliable a reviewer is.

Oh dear, is it showing?
Anyways, I mentioned porn, didn't I?

I'm morbidly curious as I've seen more people do this ... what made you go "You know how I want to be known on this forum ... as an anime porn character!" ?

I never quite understood the mentality behind that life choice.
 
Without getting into the politics of that specific case, do you really feel that miniature opinion pieces like that have a place in what's supposed to be an informative review?

Here is what I don't get about people jumping on a review for having "miniature opinion pieces".

The pattern seems to be:

1 Reviewer expresses an opinion.
2. That opinion affects the overall review score.
3. Readers who disagree with the review point to the "miniature opinion piece" as proof that the review is somehow invalid.
4. A Hell-portal opens and Twitter looks like something out of Event Horizon for a day or so.

What I don't get is if the reviewer is able to express their thoughts clearly and you don't agree with those thoughts, didn't the reviewer do their job? Didn't they give their readers enough information to allow them to decide for themselves? Wouldn't it be way way worse if the reviewer hid their reasoning? Isn't ethics all about disclosure?

Reviewers I personally trust are ones who have demonstrated to me exactly where they are coming from. I can actually get more value out of a well written review from a someone who I disagree with than a garbage review that gives a game I like a high score. I know he gets mentioned a lot, but Ebert was the king of this.
 
I don't understand the Borderlands boycott..

Are they really doing it because of a joke about being "friend zoned"?
Anthony Burch has criticized Gamergate in the past. Some hassled Pitchford about it, trying to get Burch fired or something, Pitchford got upset at these people attacking one of his employees, some ggaters took screencaps of his hostile reaction and spread it around on the hashtag for a while with the intent of getting people to mob and boycott and just generally continue spreading the ill will. Guess it's still happening.

At least I think that is what's at the core of it.
 
Ah I see; so he "caved to the PC police" I guess? (the perspective of GG'ers, not my own)

I googled him, thanks.

That's a little better than them reacting to that joke in the game.. lol.. but that's not saying much.

IDK, he has kind of an abrasive personality. I'm pretty sure people wouldn't like him with or without his framed Anita Sarkeesian tweets on his desk.

tvMFiUu.png
 
Sometimes I'm wondering if people just confuse "informed" & "objective" with regarding to how reliable a reviewer is.



I'm morbidly curious as I've seen more people do this ... what made you go "You know how I want to be known on this forum ... as an anime porn character!" ?

I never quite understood the mentality behind that life choice.
Tomoko a qt <3
 
Anthony Burch has criticized Gamergate in the past. Some hassled Pitchford about it, trying to get Burch fired or something, Pitchford got upset at these people attacking one of his employees, some ggaters took screencaps of his hostile reaction and spread it around on the hashtag for a while with the intent of getting people to mob and boycott and just generally continue spreading the ill will. Guess it's still happening.

At least I think that is what's at the core of it.

Yikes.

BennyBlanco: Not really likely to be the reason for why GG would target Borderlands, but thanks for the info I guess. I prefer if the games I like are created by personalities I like.. but if not I just don't pay attention, not really worth it.
 
I read a handful of these "reviews" and they're just awful. They're essentially reading like a press release. There is literally zero information in there that makes me think the game is an 8 or 7 or whatever score it ended up getting.

That's the joke. The site is making fun of people who demand "objective" game reviews by showing just how uninteresting a truly objective review would be. The arbitrary scores at the end are a pot-shot at the modern 7-10 review scale.
 
That's the joke. The site is making fun of people who demand "objective" game reviews by showing just how uninteresting a truly objective review would be. The arbitrary scores at the end are a pot-shot at the modern 7-10 review scale.
I honestly could not tell if they were serious or not but it's good to know
 
I read a handful of these "reviews" and they're just awful. They're essentially reading like a press release. There is literally zero information in there that makes me think the game is an 8 or 7 or whatever score it ended up getting.

I don't think you guys get that this is a joke site specifically making fun of people asking for objective game reviews.
 
There can´t never be an objective review, there´s enough neuroscience studies that show that liking or disliking something is a process in wich you feel something good or bad and after that you rationalize your feelings on the matter, so if you read a book, see a movie or play a game and after that you review it, what you do is try to rationalize the feelings that said activities have produced in you, there´s a pretty interesting video at TED of Daniel kaneman explaining what are some of the things that make an impression in wheter you like something or not and two of the most important factors regardless if it is listening to music or being subjected to a colonoscopy is how long the process last and the ending of it, so go figure if reviewing something is subjective , that in those two pretty different experinces listening to a record or a colonoscopy the same principles apply.

On another note i have an eight year old daughter and i love to play games with her, we play speed runners, we play the lego games, we play the kind of games that i can safely have her playing with me, and after all this time whenever i read someone opposing inclusion, best representation in games and so on, my blood boils, i´m sad, pissed at all this, the fact that someone like Jenn Frank and many others have left game writting, or game development is pretty sad, this is and has been deppresing, to follow and to read.

There´s never been a better time to play games, you have the whole spectrum, you can play your AAA games, your indies, and seen so many people scared of this and going under the flag of some ethical crusade is really, really sad. The game industry has a lot of problems and we should all work to try and fix it, but sure inclusion and a fair traitment of its members should be something to fight for, nor something to be scared of,
don´t know if i have made a lot of sense but all of this gamergate thing is starting to overstay its welcome, like John Oliver said use your rage productively people
 
If I had to think of an objective measure to review games that'd still signify some level of quality I can only come up with a single solid rating system:

glitches/hour


The higher a game's G/H rating, the more probable that it's not a good game. (e.g big rigs)
 
I read a handful of these "reviews" and they're just awful. They're essentially reading like a press release. There is literally zero information in there that makes me think the game is an 8 or 7 or whatever score it ended up getting.

Yes, people have now told you is a joke. But that is the point of the joke. Purely objective information cannot tell you whether a game is worth the money. Reviews in real life, in every entertainment medium, are overwhelmingly subjective. And that's a good thing.
 
By george, I've got it! The solution to full reviews that allow the reader to only see what they want! Madlib reviews!

Bayonetta 2 is unapologetically, even defiantly (adjective).
This is a (tool) that cuts both ways. Developer Platinum Games has once again gone for broke, creating an (adjective) game of spectacle so big that it's occasionally (adjective). Bayonetta 2 is the kind of game where you might ask, seriously, why you're not allowed to strap a massive (weapon) to your (article of clothing). It's extravagant, like the golden age of Japanese action games never ended, like that arms race just escalated on and on.

It's also the kind of game that left me asking how many times and how many different ways developer Platinum could run a camera up the main character's (body part, plural) and (body part, singular).

On one side of the (noun) is a character action game that refines the (adjective) combat foundations of the original Bayonetta and avoids the lack of variety that dragged it down in the last third. On the other, the deliberate (random word) and (random word) on display serves as a (adjective) distraction from the creativity and design smarts elsewhere.
 
If I had to think of an objective measure to review games that'd still signify some level of quality I can only come up with a single solid rating system:

glitches/hour


The higher a game's G/H rating, the more probable that it's not a good game. (e.g big rigs)

But even then you get into the subjective world of fun glitches.
 
How does that work, exactly? Are you looking for a review that contains only facts? "The game runs at 60fps, it took this reviewer 16 hours over four days to complete using the standard PS3 controller and a 40" diagonal HDTV in a darkened room. Toilet breaks are facilitated by a simple pause mechanism."

I mean, an objective review of a game would be incredibly useless.

Simple!? "Simple" is an opinion. You are Bias.
 
I just realised the endless "is wavedashing a glitch" arguments in the smash community, who argue wavedashing made melee a much better game.

No matter how objective you try to be ... it never works!

And that's the hilarious thing with all of this. A site is great only until the person doesn't agree with the writer and suddenly there is bias.
 
Do you? What value does someone else's opinion have? I'm trying to, as I said, make an informed decision.

And as for your second point, why on earth would I go to a source designed to influence me into purchasing the product for unbiased information?

...because a place where you can get unbiased information on an artistic product doesn't and cannot exist. Unless you're looking for tech specs.

What purpose do you think reviews serve?
 
Would be nice to just point out how a game's portrayal or representation of women blows without people blowing fuses.

When gamers send fucking death threats to women for simply existing and having an opinion, I'm not sure if this will ever be a feasible future in our lifetimes. I'm sorry, but this had been so disheartening to experience and be through.

I'm sick of this garbage, even when we see it in a closely moderated space like Neogaf. And I'm tired of people supporting those ignorant and stubborn gamers who can't handle when something gets criticized.
 
IDK, he has kind of an abrasive personality. I'm pretty sure people wouldn't like him with or without his framed Anita Sarkeesian tweets on his desk.

tvMFiUu.png

He worked for Destructoid for years. You don't come out of there the same person.

Regardless, if people want to continue to not play video games based on the personality of the people who make them, even though they have no real stock in those people, their attitudes, or their lifelihood, that's their decision. I know people get off on saying how much they'll never play Fez because Phil Fish made it, even though it really was one of the best games put out in 2012.

People do all sorts of things for dumb reasons. I don't shop at Market Basket because the density of stupid people within the store makes me physically angry, even though they have the best food prices across the board. ::SHRUG::

When gamers send fucking death threats to women for simply existing and having an opinion, I'm not sure if this will ever be a feasible future in our lifetimes. I'm sorry, but this had been so disheartening to experience and be through.

I'm sick of this garbage, even when we see it in a closely moderated space like Neogaf. And I'm tired of people supporting those ignorant and stubborn gamers who can't handle when something gets criticized.

It's not the same thing, but I had to explain to people last night why doing blackface was racist. It was met with similar animosity as what you'd find here in a gamergate thread, both pro and con. I empathize.
 
Am I the only one who found "I can't hear you over my money and personal satisfaction" really funny?

I don't even know the dude, but that tweet strikes my funny bone.
 
Am I the only one who found "I can't hear you over my money and personal satisfaction" really funny?

Part of the issue with these mutton-heads is that they believe creators should always kiss their ass, because they're the consumer. So any creator that handles their invective and whinging with anything less than perfect aplomb is attacking his userbase and therefore deserves any awful thing done to them.
 
Am I the only one who found "I can't hear you over my money and personal satisfaction" really funny?

I don't even know the dude, but that tweet strikes my funny bone.

Hah; I found it kind of funny.

And I'd really have to see what he "blocked" to know if his detractors had any point there; plenty of non constructive trolls have hid behind the label of being "merely criticism" when complaining about being blocked or banned from something.
 
I thought people were going to burn down Jeff Gerstmann's house when he gave Driveclub a 2/5. Heard some elaborate explanations of why he shouldn't be allowed to review games any more.

And the protests always amount to the same argument that comes out of a hardcore fanbases (of a then-unreleased game, *snicker*) any time a review is less than glowing: the only acceptable audience to write a review for, and the only acceptable point of view to write from, is that of the hardcore niche that unquestionably adores and anticipates the game. Usually neogaf avoids the worst aspects of online gamer discussion, but we are the KING of this.

Why would a reviewer want to engage with that kind of feedback?
 
I appreciate Brianna Wu's eagerness to sit down with some of slime balls in this whole thing, if only to give them more reason to prove how shitty they are. The Milo thing was already talked about, but then there was this when she talked/reached out to Balwdin:

aW1ZXje.png


OxWVv5j.png
 
Am I the only one who found "I can't hear you over my money and personal satisfaction" really funny?

I don't even know the dude, but that tweet strikes my funny bone.
Yea, I thought it was kinda funny. It's also pretty much the exact same kinda humour you'd see in HAWP or the different podcasts he's been on.
 
I'm possibly misremembering this, apologies if so and please correct me:

Wasn't Burch the fellow early on who called out #GG as only targeting certain women for certain perceived ethical trangressions, citing himself as also having done the same thing? "Hey, I know I'm a guy, but I did this too; why aren't you on my back about it?"

I feel sure that was a thing. I also seem to recall Burch (or whoever it was if I'm misremembering) having to go out of his way to antagonise the hashtag in order to finally score their attention.
 
I'm possibly misremembering this, apologies if so and please correct me:

Wasn't Burch the fellow early on who called out #GG as only targeting certain women for certain perceived ethical trangressions, citing himself as also having done the same thing? "Hey, I know I'm a guy, but I did this too; why aren't you on my back about it?"

I believe this is what you are referring to: https://twitter.com/reverendanthony/status/507381413721939968\

He was trying to show that the whole thing had nothing to do with 'journalistic integrity' but with a game creator (Zoe Quinn) being a woman.
 
I appreciate Brianna Wu's eagerness to sit down with some of slime balls in this whole thing, if only to give them more reason to prove how shitty they are. The Milo thing was already talked about, but then there was this when she talked/reached out to Balwdin:
aW1ZXje.png

OxWVv5j.png

It's honestly astonishing to me that he is that much of an asshole, I need to try harder to remember that just because someone played one of my favourite characters says nothing about who they are.
 
I appreciate Brianna Wu's eagerness to sit down with some of slime balls in this whole thing, if only to give them more reason to prove how shitty they are. The Milo thing was already talked about, but then there was this when she talked/reached out to Balwdin:

aW1ZXje.png


OxWVv5j.png

How did they found out it is #gg that did the threats anyway? Otherwise I can understand the anger from being falsely accuse.
 
How did they found out it is #gg that did the threats anyway? Otherwise I can understand the anger from being falsely accuse.

She was doxed in 8chan on their gg board and her harassment came as a result of a fan-made meme ridiculing gg.

Also, watch out that you are doubting a victim's claims.
 
It's honestly astonishing to me that he is that much of an asshole, I need to try harder to remember that just because someone played one of my favourite characters says nothing about who they are.

Never meet your heroes. It always ends in disappointment when you find out that they really are just human.
 
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