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[charlequin]

What? They seriously don't want people to donate to Child's Play? That's some bullshit

SJWs and GGs can find common ground in refusing to give money to Penny Arcade!

Wait, it says there that Anna Anthropy is the one Patricia Hernandez supposedly gave positive press to -- I say supposedly because I see no links provided to this publicity -- while rooming together. Yet in this thread over the last few pages people kept repeatedly saying it was Christine Love.

Two different things. Patricia has social relationships with both of them and has written about both Analogue: A Hate Story and several of Anna's games on Kotaku in the past. By default I'd prefer not to actually link over to anything actually trying to dig into this or otherwise dignify the line of "investigation" the hordes are propagating here, but those basic facts are true.

As a general rule, just based on my own experience (a KNOWN SJW DEVELOPER lived on my couch for a month!) you basically can't operate as either a scenester indie developer or a writer covering niche games without heavily socializing across that boundary. Indiecade just happened this last weekend and it's not like the writers and developers are hanging up a curtain wall so they don't accidentally talk to each other.

 

[Vlade]

You won't be saying that when EviLore is no longer able to pay our salaries as a result of decreased ad revenue.

You guys are paid?!?!? I thought you were just bored shut-ins.

 

[stupei]

I give them the benefit of the doubt that they, for whatever reason, do not feel it to be "for the best" if they comment, but

When you look at places, even here on GAF, that say "I wish Giant Bomb would stop talking about #gamergate" in the really barebones way Giant Bomb does, you begin to feel like they know it would anger fans for them to take a stand.

Good thing allowing financial concerns to dictate editorial practices on gaming websites is only a concern if it has an assumed "political agenda."

 

[ClockWorkGarlic]

Don't really know what's been going in this thread but in case it matters: youtuber Dodger finally made a long tweet about gamer gate how she felt about it:

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sd0v77

 

[chaobreaker]

Why is David Jaffe on the support list?

I assume it has to do with that little feud he had with Ben Kuchera, who I am positive is on the GG shitlist?

 

[Lime]

And in the same segment she is listed as an American feminist writer, individualist feminist, feminist philosopher and Jewish feminist.

It is not usual people of the same group argues on principles within the same group.

When you are basically contradicting and effectively working against everything that a group of people have and still are fighting for, you dont get to be called someone who fight for the same goals.

If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, etc. In this case we are talking about an upper class white woman apologizing and defending an oppressive system.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

SJWs and GGs can find common ground in refusing to give money to Penny Arcade!



Two different things. Patricia has social relationships with both of them and has written about both Analogue: A Hate Story and several of Anna's games on Kotaku in the past. By default I'd prefer not to actually link over to anything actually trying to dig into this or otherwise dignify the line of "investigation" the hordes are propagating here, but those basic facts are true.

As a general rule, just based on my own experience (a KNOWN SJW DEVELOPER lived on my couch for a month!) you basically can't operate as either a scenester indie developer or a writer covering niche games without heavily socializing across that boundary. Indiecade just happened this last weekend and it's not like the writers and developers are hanging up a curtain wall so they don't accidentally talk to each other.

I end up knowing a lot of people in this circle just from friends-of-friends. It's sort of impossible to avoid, really.

 

[MHWilliams]

Wasn't there a prominent feminist who weighed in on this topic recently? Christina Hoff Sommers? Would she say that they cannot identify themselves as feminists?

Sommers books include "Who Stole Feminism: How Women Have Betrayed Women" and "The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men". She is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, a libertarian and conservative think tank. (You can look at the frontpage of that site if you want confirmation.)

She believes in something she has coined as "equity feminism" and says that "gender feminism" (another term she's coined) tries to get preferential treatment for women and classifies all women as victims. This is her branch of feminism that she has created. (Note: Different form Equality Feminism.)

So let's see what she's worried about outside of those books.

Title lX: How a Good Law Went Terribly Wrong

The landmark legislation was supposed to bring equality, instead it devastated mens' sports on campus

Schools have cut back on male teams and created new women’s teams, not because of demand but because they fear federal investigations. Since football is a money-generating male sport with large rosters, Title IX quotas have all but decimated smaller less lucrative sports such as men’s swimming, diving, gymnastics and wrestling. More than 450 wrestling teams vanished since 1972, with only 328 remaining.

Then why not say that men’s sports were a casualty of football rather than Title IX? Because women’s groups have consistently rejected reasonable solutions to the football challenge. College football is qualitatively different from sports like diving, rowing and tennis. It is a mass spectacle, loved by millions of students, and integral to the identity and history of colleges and universities everywhere. It requires a large number of players and has no female counterpart. So why not just take it out of the Title IX mix? That one concession would have saved hundreds of small male teams. But no such concession was offered. Football is not destroying men’s teams; intransigent women’s groups and their “proportionality gap” bear most of the blame.

Rape Culture is a ‘Panic Where Paranoia, Censorship, and False Accusations Flourish’

Sexual assault on campus is a genuine problem—but the new rape culture crusade is turning ugly. The list of falsely accused young men subject to kangaroo court justice is growing apace. This movement is turning our campuses into hostile environments for free expression and due process. And so far, university officials, political leaders, and the White House are siding with the mob.

Some will say that these moral panics, while overblown, do call attention to serious problems. This is deeply mistaken. The hysteria around daycare abuse and campus rape shed no light: rather they confuse and discredit genuine cases of abuse and violence. Molestation and rape are horrific crimes that warrant serious attention and vigorous response. Panics breed chaos and mob justice. They claim innocent victims, undermine social trust, and teach us to doubt the evidence of our own experience.

Fair Pay Isn’t Always Equal Pay

The Paycheck Fairness bill would set women against men, empower trial lawyers and activists, perpetuate falsehoods about the status of women in the workplace and create havoc in a precarious job market. It is 1970s-style gender-war feminism for a society that should be celebrating its success in substantially, if not yet completely, overcoming sex-based workplace discrimination.

Why Can’t a Woman Be More Like a Man?

Departments of physics, math, chemis­try, engineering, and computer science have remained traditional, rigorous, competitive, relatively meritocratic, and under the control of no-nonsense professors dedicated to objec­tive standards. All that may be about to change. Following years of meticulous planning by the activists gathered for the hearing, the era of academic détente is coming to an end.

The power and glory of science and engineer­ing is that they are, adamantly, evidence-based. But the evidence of gender bias in math and science is flimsy at best, and the evidence that women are relatively disinclined to pursue these fields at the highest levels is serious. When the bastions of science pay obsequious attention to the flimsy and turn a blind eye to the serious, it is hard to maintain the view that the science enterprise is somehow immune to the enthu­siasms that have corrupted other, supposedly “softer” academic fields.

Few academic scientists know anything about the equity crusade. Most have no idea of its power, its scope, and the threats that they may soon be facing. The business commu­nity and citizens at large are completely in the dark. This is a quiet revolution. Its weapons are government reports that are rarely seen; amendments to federal bills that almost no one reads; small, unnoticed, but dramatically con­sequential changes in the regulations regarding government grants; and congressional hearings attended mostly by true believers.

Will an academic science that is quota-driven, gender-balanced, cooperative rather than competitive, and less time-consuming produce anything like these results? So far, no one in Congress has even thought to ask.

Basically, when it comes to classically feminist topics like domestic violence, the lack of equality in genders, the wage gap, and rape, she tends to focus on how men are effected. And Sommers generally believes first wave feminism fixed all the problems and current feminists are just causing more issues.

She's akin to someone who registers as a Democrat, but votes solidly Republican, or vice-versa.

 

[LiquidSword]

Well, you'll probably be disappointed. They do talk about the harrassment but only for a few minutes and it's really not anything to get riled up about, which makes the reddit reactions all the more troubeling.

Yeah it's not an in depth discussion. It was like what I said on the last page. They denounce the harassment and then all the sudden they are corrupt and should be blacklisted.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

And in the same segment she is listed as an American feminist writer, individualist feminist, feminist philosopher and Jewish feminist.

It is not usual people of the same group argues on principles within the same group.

Her ideals are simply just not those of core feminism. Yes there are several types of feminists but they all have a pretty general idea of what they're after, just different ways to achieve it. Sommers on the other hand isn't fighting for equality when you listen to her. Or rather, she's not for real equality. She lives in some imagination land where women aren't being targeted within an entire industry and forced out with death/rape threats. She has some false idea that men and women are already equal and we should just accept that video games are a club for boys.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

Balloon Juice or Ordinary Gentlemen?

Either way, as somebody who has followed him for a while, Kain's a good guy but way too weather vane-y. He went from a libertarian-leaning to hardcore left, then drifted back toward centrist pox on both of your houses, before finally getting a better gig writing about games and ignoring politics all together.

But, yeah, his articles talking about how Gamergater's aren't horrible people remind me a lot of his early Balloon Juice articles - look, libertarians are just misunderstood. Oh sure, they don't think the Civil Rights Act should've been passed, but they've got their good qualities as well.

Ha! It was Balloon Juice, as a matter of fact. You've got a point about him being a little ambivalent on certain subjects, so hopefully he comes around to a little bit more of a sensible (what I think is sensible, of course) position on this eventually. Like, I glanced at his Twitter feed and it's him just denying harassment is even happening, and blaming the #StopGamerGate2014 people for making things worse. Sigh.

 

[FoneBone]

The single best response to PA's Jerry. Come the fuck on, dude.

 

[RicoTheMad]

I've been following this thread in large chunks but missed what got Boogie banned. What happened? IIRC this thread was on the verge of making him see that there's no real value in supporting the "good side" of GG. I'm looking back and see that he just doubled down on his support of the movement.

It's really depressing to see all this e-celebs argue in favor of GG or eat up its rhetoric even when they're aware of all the vile shit that happens under that banner. I can't believe TB is still arguing that the movement is still about "journalistic integrity" and BroteamPill thinks Sarkeesian and Quinn are making up the threats. I'm still not sure if I should swear off JonTron after he posted that comic.



Erik Kain too. I thought his contributions on Forbes' blogsite were pretty good.

Perhaps judging people based on the actions of lunatics, rather than the thoughts and ideas they view worthy, is not the best course of action?

"I respected X until they didn't join our lynchmob" doesn't say much. Unlike what others would like to lead us to believe, it is perfectly acceptable and logical to take ideas from both GG and nonGG people and analyze them on the merits of the idea alone, rather than the lunatics on either side.

I lose respect for people who think "taking a side" is something you must do. You can be a good individual without being part of a lynch mob. Denounce the individuals, don't go on a witch hunt because someone else told you to.

Harassment is bad. Doesn't mean I side with Leigh Alexander in spewing bile on gamers in general. It also doesn't mean I thin Nero speaks for me or my ideas or that Adam Baldwin's right-wing insanity is right up my alley.

Individualism. It's a beautiful thing.

I think Erik Kain has been pretty level headed throughout the entire thing. Aside from not blatantly siding with Sarkeesian & Co, what has he done wrong?

 

[djplaeskool]

I assume it has to do with that little feud he had with Ben Kuchera, who I am positive is on the GG shitlist?

I think so.
There was that soundcloud "interview" where Jaffe flipped his shit (and to some extent, rightfully so).

 

[TommyT]

It's difficult to determine those outlets and their motivation. Some are afraid for their employees' safety. I can understand their reluctance, but I wish some would take a stand nonetheless.

But certainly they should speak if they are able to as being silent also enabled a vacuum in which the bigots thrive while non-invited people are misled on the hate movement.

You can't be neutral on a moving train, etc.

Fair enough. I do agree that you can't (well ok, you can I suppose) fault them for looking out for their employees safety should that be the reason; but I would think (hope?) that more good comes from putting necessary information in their audiences hands than not.

FWIW - I asked to gauge your rigidness of the lines of the test... if they were pass/fail only. Glad to see they're not given your voice in this thread/cause.

I think you're confusing "not taking a side" with "legitimizing a hate campaign".

Personalities like TB and Erik Kain are doing essentially the latter.

No, actually, I'm not. I was referencing the outlets, not the personalities. Many outlets are indeed not taking a side, whatever their reasons may be, and thus would essentially 'fail' the test by not giving coverage that was appropriate to a persons beliefs/outcome from the mentioned litmus.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Harassment is bad. Doesn't mean I side with Leigh Alexander in spewing bile on gamers in general. It also doesn't mean I thin Nero speaks for me or my ideas or that Adam Baldwin's right-wing insanity is right up my alley.

Individualism. It's a beautiful thing.

Leigh Alexander didn't spew bile on gamers in general. So there you go.

 

[charlequin]

And in the same segment she is listed as an American feminist writer, individualist feminist, feminist philosopher and Jewish feminist.

Basically, CHS can well be a feminist by self-declaration and by agreement with the high-level principle of equality between the sexes, but simultaneously out of line with mainstream feminist thought and not associated with any groups that populate the body of modern feminism.

For some heterodox position, if the question is "does any person who considers themselves a feminist believe x?" then the answer is going to be yes. If it's "do self-identified feminists who believe x line up with a broader picture of feminism as a movement or field of study?" the answer will be no.

 

[chaobreaker]

Perhaps judging people based on the actions of lunatics, rather than the thoughts and ideas they view worthy, is not the best course of action?

"I respected X until they didn't join our lynchmob" doesn't say much. Unlike what others would like to lead us to believe, it is perfectly acceptable and logical to take ideas from both GG and nonGG people and analyze them on the merits of the idea alone, rather than the lunatics on either side.

I lose respect for people who think "taking a side" is something you must do. You can be a good individual without being part of a lynch mob. Denounce the individuals, don't go on a witch hunt because someone else told you to.

Harassment is bad. Doesn't mean I side with Leigh Alexander in spewing bile on gamers in general. It also doesn't mean I thin Nero speaks for me or my ideas or that Adam Baldwin's right-wing insanity is right up my alley.

Individualism. It's a beautiful thing.

It's not about taking a side. A couple of posters have made it more clear on this thread but there's no "other side" to GG.

 

[antigoon]

I see we're mansplaining how to deal with death threats and terrorism now!

Good to hear that the GB crew finally said something about GG on the Bombcast, but I still think Jeff and other EICs of big game sites need to publish editorials explicitly denouncing GG.

 

[FoneBone]

I think Erik Kain has been pretty level headed throughout the entire thing. Aside from not blatantly siding with Sarkeesian & Co, what has he done wrong?

You probably won't agree, but a lot of things, I'd say.

 

[MHWilliams]

Individualism. It's a beautiful thing.

So if you have a problem with Leigh Alexander, just don't read Leigh Alexander. Not sure about all the rest, but having a problem with Leigh Alexander and saying "the games media is hopelessly corrupt!" isn't being individualistic in any way shape or form.

This is a problem I've stated repeatedly.

 

[MYeager]

I've been following this thread in large chunks but missed what got Boogie banned. What happened? IIRC this thread was on the verge of making him see that there's no real value in supporting the "good side" of GG. I'm looking back and see that he just doubled down on his support of the movement.

It's like page 210 or something but he sort of melted down and was asking for people to 'end him'. He seems to be an emotional guy who has taken some of this as a failure of his work for the last 7 years. I don't follow him or his videos but at that point it's just healthy to take a step back.

 

[fedexpeon]

Please, tell us more about how people should handle death threats.

History can help you more than me.
Western society is built on people standing up to threats.

Just google in Malala Yousafzai or any gay right activists if you want more recent events instead of depending on past events from the history book.
These people are currently standing up to what they believe and don't care about death threats.
You must have courage if you want to put up a fight about inequality.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

The single best response to PA's Jerry. Come the fuck on, dude.

Did he seriously compare himself to Jesus Christ for "not picking a side"?

As much as I dislike Penny Arcade, if they picked a side, it would be heard.

 

[Cybit]

Did he seriously compare himself to Jesus Christ for "not picking a side"?

As much as I dislike Penny Arcade, if they picked a side, it would be heard.

He's mocking how reasonable responses such as his are being torn apart on twitter by pro-GG folks.

I feel the quote

But they’ve broken your banner, now, and you helped them do it.

is a pretty solid indication of what they believe.

 

[Corpekata]

History can help you more than me.
Western society is built on people standing up to threats.

Just google in Malala Yousafzai or any gay right activists if you want more recent events instead of depending on past events from the history book.
These people are currently standing up to what they believe and don't care about death threats.
You must have courage if you want to put up a fight about inequality.

Just to be clear. You are saying pop culture critics should have the tenacity of a Nobel Prize winner that's fighting for basic human rights?

 

[Lime]

Perhaps judging people based on the actions of lunatics, rather than the thoughts and ideas they view worthy, is not the best course of action?

"I respected X until they didn't join our lynchmob" doesn't say much. Unlike what others would like to lead us to believe, it is perfectly acceptable and logical to take ideas from both GG and nonGG people and analyze them on the merits of the idea alone, rather than the lunatics on either side.

I lose respect for people who think "taking a side" is something you must do. You can be a good individual without being part of a lynch mob. Denounce the individuals, don't go on a witch hunt because someone else told you to.

Harassment is bad. Doesn't mean I side with Leigh Alexander in spewing bile on gamers in general. It also doesn't mean I thin Nero speaks for me or my ideas or that Adam Baldwin's right-wing insanity is right up my alley.

Individualism. It's a beautiful thing.

I think Erik Kain has been pretty level headed throughout the entire thing. Aside from not blatantly siding with Sarkeesian & Co, what has he done wrong?

Erik Kain is perpetuating and legitimizing Gamergate. He is using his platform to basically convey his misinformed opinion about this entire issue and produce ignorant beliefs and knowledge for others to use as evidence that GG isn't causing harm to other people. He is misguided, as I have written in length earlier in the thread - find the post if you want to know more (I'm on my phone so can't help right now)

Regarding your general point: if a person chooses to side with a group known for hurting and harming other people for simply existing I'm going to call that person out. Even moreso I will denounce that person if he or she is unwilling to listen to other People's personal testimonies on how they are terrorized and if that person continues to be part of something that does Real harm onto others.

 

[Orayn]

History can help you more than me.
Western society is built on people standing up to threats.

Just google in Malala Yousafzai or any gay right activists if you want more recent events instead of depending on past events from the history book.
These people are currently standing up to what they believe and don't care about death threats.
You must have courage if you want to put up a fight about inequality.

Standing up to threats is an incredibly brave and strong thing to do, but fearing for your own safety doesn't make you weak. It makes you a normal human being who doesn't want to die.

 

[JackDT]

I have to admit I literally (and I mean literally literally here) rolled my eyes when he compared himself to Jesus. It's just so dramatic. But that's kind of his writing style. Still love those guys.

 

[RicoTheMad]

Leigh Alexander didn't spew bile on gamers in general. So there you go.

Once you put words on the internet the meaning is what people make of it. Making statements like "Gamers are dead" seems pretty conclusive to me. I've not made it a secret about my thoughts that painting humanity with a wide brush, specially when its a brush spreading filth, is not a good practice.

I do not support the people who do that. As we can see, it certainly does not help anyone's causes and only creates bad blood between people. Attacks often do.

Humanity is made up of many people and cultures. To bring about change requires understanding that not everyone shares your point of view and that sometimes, we can all be wrong and still not be monsters. Changing people's POV comes from developing a mutual understanding and finding common ground to build on, not demolishing everything around you.

When you make definitive statements about groups of people as a whole you are no better than the people generalizing "all women/minorities/whatever do X" which is the type of thinking and actions that further divide rather than unite people of different races/sex/culture/etc.

Sorry, but not something I can get behind. There are far better people espousing the cause of feminism. I don't need to settle for someone who chooses to fight fire with fire in a burning house.

 

[MHWilliams]

Standing up to threats is an incredibly brave and strong thing to do, but fearing for your own safety doesn't make you weak. It makes you a normal human being who doesn't want to die.

And none of the three has gone anywhere. They've left their homes due to safety concerns, but they're all still active.

Once you put words on the internet the meaning is what people make of it. Making statements like "Gamers are dead" seems pretty conclusive to me. I've not made it a secret about my thoughts that painting humanity with a wide brush, specially when its a brush spreading filth, is not a good practice.

Never said by Leigh. The correct statement is:

“Gamer” isn’t just a dated demographic label that most people increasingly prefer not to use. Gamers are over.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Standing up to threats is an incredibly brave and strong thing to do, but fearing for your own safety doesn't make you weak. It makes you a normal human being who doesn't want to die.

With context (a school shooting), both are strong actions, both standing up to the threat and backing down from it.

 

[Gorger]

When you are basically contradicting and effectively working against everything that a group of people have and still are fighting for, you dont get to be called someone who fight for the same goals.

If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, etc. In this case we are talking about an upper class white woman apologizing and defending an oppressive system.

Everything? What do you think her views are on universal suffrage, equal rights for women, reproductive rights and gender neutrality? I feel you are criticizing her too harshly.

And since I don't really agree with her video I feel like I am playing devil's advocate as I love playing female character. I am one of those 15 % who have for as long as I can remember always chosen female characters when given the choice, and would love to see more focus on games with female leads.

 

[Orayn]

I don't think Jerry was actually meaning to compare himself to Jesus, the "crucified with hashtags" thing is pretty typical of the type of hyperbole he likes to use. (I mean hyperbole in the proper sense, Jerry is a great writer.)

 

[RicoTheMad]

So if you have a problem with Leigh Alexander, just don't read Leigh Alexander. Not sure about all the rest, but having a problem with Leigh Alexander and saying "the games media is hopelessly corrupt!" isn't being individualistic in any way shape or form.

This is a problem I've stated repeatedly.

I don't. And I've never said all the games media is hopelessly corrupt. Not too many pages back, I made a list, which contained some media sites I enjoy, who I feel are pretty honest and transparent.

I still enjoy content from other developers from Gamasutra though. See? Not painting with that brush of generalization.

 

[JackDT]

Once you put words on the internet the meaning is what people make of it. Making statements like "Gamers are dead" seems pretty conclusive to me.

Then I guess it's good she never said that? The title is: 'Gamers' don't have to be your audience. 'Gamers' are over.

Note the quote around 'gamers' to delineate gamers as people from 'gamers' the marketing term a la 'GamerGrub'. Jeff Gersmann makes a very similar point to Leigh Alexander right here with different words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apBnWCYSYCM&t=1h42m

How do you feel when he says it? Listen to a few minutes of his conversation. You see how he hates the word gamer too, gamer is a thing marketers use to tell Mountain Dew. It's very close to what Leigh was saying.

A la:

That's the doucebag gamer stereotype by asshole marketers.

 

[Gorger]

Sommers books include "Who Stole Feminism: How Women Have Betrayed Women" and "The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men". She is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, a libertarian and conservative think tank. (You can look at the frontpage of that site if you want confirmation.)

She believes in something she has coined as "equity feminism" and says that "gender feminism" (another term she's coined) tries to get preferential treatment for women and classifies all women as victims. This is her branch of feminism that she has created. (Note: Different form Equality Feminism.)

So let's see what she's worried about outside of those books.

Title lX: How a Good Law Went Terribly Wrong



Rape Culture is a ‘Panic Where Paranoia, Censorship, and False Accusations Flourish’





Fair Pay Isn’t Always Equal Pay


Why Can’t a Woman Be More Like a Man?




Basically, when it comes to classically feminist topics like domestic violence, the lack of equality in genders, the wage gap, and rape, she tends to focus on how men are effected. And Sommers generally believes first wave feminism fixed all the problems and current feminists are just causing more issues.

She's akin to someone who registers as a Democrat, but votes solidly Republican, or vice-versa.

Thanks this was much more informative.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Once you put words on the internet the meaning is what people make of it. Making statements like "Gamers are dead" seems pretty conclusive to me. I've not made it a secret about my thoughts that painting humanity with a wide brush, specially when its a brush spreading filth, is not a good practice.

OK... She did not say "gamers are dead"! She said "'gamers' are over." Notice the little quotes around "gamer"? That was not an accident! It was the word! The stereotype.
She said in real life gamers were diverse, and that publishers shouldn't focus on the narrow idea of "gamer" that they currently focus on. How is that painting anybody with a broad brush?

 

[More_Badass]

I was chatting with a developer that I knew and learned he was pro-GG. I wanted to see if I could get some articulate thoughts on why someone would ever support GamerGate. Here were some of his responses:

On generalization

I'm sure you've heard of the game "League of Legends". Massive game. Millions upon millions play the game on a daily basis. It's known to have one of the "worst" communities out there when it comes to gaming...

Out of the millions upon millions of people who play this game, only about 5ish% is toxic. Even though the community is notorious for bad behavior among gamers, the press, and more. Even he recognizes that it's still to high for his taste, but that the community isn't "bad" like the stereotypes and media make it out to be. That it's typical human behavior to only remember negative things because it has a larger impact on us mentally. Often we hear "Good job!" at our jobs, we hear thanks from loved ones and whatnot all day. So it's the "norm" for us. But toxic behavior isn't the norm, so it sticks out more.

These same principals apply to GamerGate. Are there trolls? Without a doubt. But largely, we're actually very respectful, none of us hate women (A lot of GG IS women). We DO purge the bad from our group, as best as anyone can. We report the trolls just as much as the AntiGG crowd. But when the SJW types control the narrative, and the information flow, and get to pick and choose what is said publicy about the movement then naturally we're labeled the bad guys who just hate women. Which is weird, because if you look at Wu's tweet threats...GamerGate isn't even mentioned.

It's not that "GamerGate is misogynist and hates women!". We just don't like bad people. NO ONE likes to be insulted. Period. So when Leigh writes an article and literally insults gamers, with stereotypes and other bullshit, or when we're compared to ISIS, naturally we flip. It has less to do with people having a vagina and more to do with their actions and words.

On the doxxing and harassment

"Pro GG means you hate women and support harassment!". We don't. Never have. If Anita, or anyone, is getting threats we're just as pissed.

On starting another hashtag

I keep hearing this over and over from anti GG people who don't realize we HAVE another hashtag that we used...and even it was taken over and attacked. #notyourshield.

It wasn't about hate. Just about not using minorities or females as "their weapon". The result? Those minorities and women were harassed, called gender traitors, and more.

So what's the point of changing the hashtag / name when, no matter what, it's been taken over and attacked?

 

[Orayn]

OK... She did not say "gamers are dead"! She said "'gamers' are over." Notice the little quotes around "gamer"? That was not an accident! It was the word! The stereotype.
She said in real life gamers were diverse, and that publishers shouldn't focus on the narrow idea of "gamer" that they currently focus on. How is that painting anybody with a brush?

Yeah but the thing I deliberately misinterpreted seems pretty scary so let's talk about that instead please.

 

[fedexpeon]

Just to be clear. You are saying pop culture critics should have the tenacity of a Nobel Prize winner that's fighting for basic human rights?

Equality is equality.
I don't draw a line.
If they firmly believe in equality and the negative influence from gaming, then yes, they should stand up and speak against it even if they are receiving threats.
MLK knew about the danger of speaking up, but that didn't prevent him from wanting equal rights.

Why does it matter if it is a pop culture thing, a sexual culture thing, a regional culture thing, a traditional culture thing? All of these define and influence society.
And pop culture definitely has a big influence on society. We can rapidly identify an era based on how people dressed and listened to in the past.

 

[Cybit]

I don't think Jerry was actually meaning to compare himself to Jesus, the "crucified with hashtags" thing is pretty typical of the type of hyperbole he likes to use. (I mean hyperbole in the proper sense, Jerry is a great writer.)

Indeed. As a comparison, when's he talking about getting a suit cleaned for an event

Gorbiriel and myself are hosting this year, so I need to take my raiment in and have it purified at some point prior to “literally the day before.” I am not an effective person under the most ordinary conditions, and for some reason the rigors of pretending to be an adult for the duration of this particular event redlines my stunted faculties.

Over the top satirical hyperbole is his shtick. If anyone thinks he legitimately believes he will be crucified....you need to get that sarcasm and satire meter checked.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Yeah but the thing I deliberately misinterpreted seems pretty scary so let's talk about that instead please.

"And I do have this angry mob agreeing with me. Yeah, let's go with that."

 

[RicoTheMad]

And none of the three has gone anywhere. They've left their homes due to safety concerns, but they're all still active.



Never said by Leigh. The correct statement is:

Let's not mince words, you know what I meant. Games are Dead vs Gamers are Over is a small difference and the overall end result is the same. You're declaring a group of diverse individuals is "done" because as we all know in logical arguments "One bad apple spoils the bunch!"

I mean based on that rhetoric we should just give up on humanity already. Humans are over, there's so many jerks out there, there's no hope. Bring on the next species, ours is over.

 

[chaobreaker]

It's like page 210 or something but he sort of melted down and was asking for people to 'end him'. He seems to be an emotional guy who has taken some of this as a failure of his work for the last 7 years. I don't follow him or his videos but at that point it's just healthy to take a step back.

But then he uploads a video denouncing #StopGamerGate2014? I don't know what his intentions are but it's very confusing what he's doing.

 

[Lime]

"A woman said something mean about my hobby once" is the fucking worst excuse for a hate campaign that I've seen trotted out again and again and again.

 

[Brakke]

Eh the "crucify me" thing doesn't really bother me, dude's just being a goof there.

What I don't like from Jerry is the "I grieve for the ones who tried to do it right. When your media doesn’t represent you, or actively attacks you as it has here, it’s not your media." When these #gg clowns "go their own way" as he calls on them to do, I'll be disappointed if that way is anywhere other than a long way off a short pier.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Once you put words on the internet the meaning is what people make of it. Making statements like "Gamers are dead" seems pretty conclusive to me. I've not made it a secret about my thoughts that painting humanity with a wide brush, specially when its a brush spreading filth, is not a good practice.

I do not support the people who do that. As we can see, it certainly does not help anyone's causes and only creates bad blood between people. Attacks often do.

Humanity is made up of many people and cultures. To bring about change requires understanding that not everyone shares your point of view and that sometimes, we can all be wrong and still not be monsters. Changing people's POV comes from developing a mutual understanding and finding common ground to build on, not demolishing everything around you.

When you make definitive statements about groups of people as a whole you are no better than the people generalizing "all women/minorities/whatever do X" which is the type of thinking and actions that further divide rather than unite people of different races/sex/culture/etc.

Sorry, but not something I can get behind. There are far better people espousing the cause of feminism. I don't need to settle for someone who chooses to fight fire with fire in a burning house.

Okay.

Let us assume she actually did say "gamers are dead".

That's not an absolute statement.

Plus, it's vague as fuck. How are they dead? What type of gamer?

 

[MYeager]

Penny Arcade has wisely decided to stay completely out of it. I don't know how much Gabe has actually learned but I think he's at least learned when to keep his mouth shut

EDIT: Apparently Tycho wrote this just this morning:

Might've been wiser for them to just stay out of it. On one hand GG supporters aren't going to want to hear the that they somehow helped break their own banner, and those against it will probably question his whole 'media actively attacking their audience' portion. But at least he's against death threats I guess.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Let's not mince words, you know what I meant. Games are Dead vs Gamers are Over is a small difference and the overall end result is the same. You're declaring a group of diverse individuals is "done" because as we all know in logical arguments "One bad apple spoils the bunch!"

I mean based on that rhetoric we should just give up on humanity already. Humans are over, there's so many jerks out there, there's no hope. Bring on the next species, ours is over.

You're still not recognizing that gamers was in quotes for a reason, and her argument was about marketers no longer needing to pander to a specific stereotypical demographic. This was explained in what I thought were very clear and fair posts in response to you. You're relating to a marketing critique.