Remember the Uncharted 3 review thread? 8.5gate? The wall of shame was long.
#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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Remember the Uncharted 3 review thread? 8.5gate? The wall of shame was long.
plagiarize
Banned
and to play video games as they are whether they like them or not. I don't know how old this comic is, so I don't want to rag on it too much...
But yeah. Absolutely. Gamers want people to stop pointing out the distasteful and harmful stuff in video games. I sort of get how it happened. It used to be baseless stuff about violence and we could all circle the wagons and understand that such things were ridiculous... and I think it fostered a reactive culture.
If video games are criticized... it's a call to arms... and at some point a lot of people stopped looking to see if there was any actual substance to the complaints.
Fortunately not every one did... but the argument for the status quo... the 'urgh, I'm sick of hearing about this... can't we just play games?' thing that people try to roll out as rational, or 'not taking a stance' or 'the middle between the two sides' is the exact sort of destructive stuff that Jim woke up to.
It's sort of like trying to argue that the climate change debate only has two sides, and that you wish everyone would stop arguing about climate change and just carry on driving their cars.
That sounds ridiculous, but it's apt, I think. That's what people are doing. 'Hey, you people stop complaining that games have ugly or harmful elements. You other people, stop giving them death threats, because I have to say something to sound at least a bit sane. Now lets all just go back to playing the games that still have ugly and harmful elements in without complaining about them. Look at how neutral I am!'
As I said to my two followers on twitter, enough time has passed for everyone to understand what it's really about. If you're still supporting it now, then I'm calling bullshit on you caring about journalism or ethics. I stayed out of this thread for a long time, because I presumed that some people were just unaware of who was driving it. If they're still on board at this point, I'm holding them completely culpable. Plausible deniability ended weeks back.
Yeah, it's because it's a deviation from the norm. "It's there to tank Metacritic Scores" some may claim. Honestly, I think his justification is pretty shallow (though he's entitled to his opinion) and I never really agree with the guys reviews in the first place
It's reached the BBC and CBC, so people who don't even care about games are noticing now. (And of course, the #GG crowd is accusing those mainstream sources of bias against them.)
LaserBuddha
Member
Seth Rogen dropped the mic and its over.
This is very very very concerning to me, because it doesn't exactly paint gamers in a positive light. We've spent years trying to convince people that we're growing up and progressing the medium, and then the big headline to reach news sites is about how a radical gamer group is terrorizing women who are trying to change things for the better.
LiegeWaffle
Member
So gamergate...
You want to pressure publishers to not give review copies to outlets that reviewed their game poorly?
I feel sad. I realize that even if that is a parody, some people seriously think it is seriously good idea.
I don't know how we can have more straightforward evidence that GamerGate is not about ethics.
I know people like mocking them, but I would choose, say, Kuchera's opinion columns over any hype-driven preview-oriented journalism every single day. He at least has his own opinion and voice, instead of broadcasting whatever PR departments of major publishes tell.
Thank you, Jim, for showing how people can change.
if anyone wants a laugh: comic tweeted by people associated with Gamergate:
at least it accurately represents the gamer as an immature white guy aggressively interrupting women by telling them to shut the fuck up.
I am not sure if an appropriate reaction here is to laugh or to cringe. I wonder how often this scenario actually happens in real life (not with those particular people, but in general).
Exactly. At risk of using unreasonable language, "gamers" (as in the self-identifying sub-group who we don't have a proper name for) have fucked themselves, and everyone else who enjoys video games, in the ass this time.
My mother asked me if I knew about this GG thing today. She's 60.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I had never thought about it like that, but yeah, you're absolutely right. The formative years we all spent on message boards rallying around video games to defend them against the likes of Jack Thompson taught us to be overly-defensive whenever we felt the medium was being attacked. More importantly, it taught us all to focus our hatred on an enemy - in that case, Jack Thompson, but he really could have been anyone.
When people threatened Thompson's life (and it absolutely did happen), a lot of us stayed silent because it was the weirdos, but others correctly pointed out that it proved Thompson's point and for people to stop it. Had Thompson been more competent or less of a ridiculous target, that whole thing could have easily flipped a different direction.
Man. Now that I think about it, I'm not incredibly proud of how I acted in those days. I see a lot of parallels to that fight and what gamergaters must think now, because they're young and stupid and haven't developed proper empathy yet.
This is kind of sobering.
LaserBuddha
Member
What bothers me is that I dont think gamergate-type gamers (from brazen misogynists to narcissists chasing fake corruption to revenge a low score) are as fringe as our kneejerk reactions would make us think. Think about getting on Xbox live chat to play Halo or something...how uncommon are despicable gamers?
This is why Im cool with "gamers are over", because I think the traditional stereotypical gamer (young white male hardcore gamer) is largely a group not worth chasing the approval of. I mean the assholes dont even need to be near >50% of the total to completely spoil the bunch.
Calling yourself a gamer after this will be like wearing a fedora. Actually peoples assumptions will paint the same picture in both cases
More_Badass
Member
Thanks
Thank you so much for putting the medium back a decade or two!
It's not a fringe group at all. Honestly i'd say that kind of person makes up at least half of the people who post this website.
The GamerGate bullcrap has come my way... A blog I run has had a few people commenting about GG events. I didn't care as my comments go very off-topic.
Then people were arguing. I tried to tell them to take it elsewhere. Then the shooting threat happened, and I told them to cease all GamerGate discussion. One guy keeps trying to start it back up by pulling the "Not All GamerGate" card. I don't care, this "movement" needs to cease.
*sigh of relief* I feel better now.
Then people were arguing. I tried to tell them to take it elsewhere. Then the shooting threat happened, and I told them to cease all GamerGate discussion. One guy keeps trying to start it back up by pulling the "Not All GamerGate" card. I don't care, this "movement" needs to cease.
*sigh of relief* I feel better now.
Conciliator
Banned
Yep, but the whole sexualization was icing on the cake for them.
You want to do something about the integrity of reviews, at least, you can start with not attacking and invalidating someone because they didn't tow the line and gave the hyped game from the corporate brand you have stapled yourself to less than an 8/10.
Hemi-PoweredDrone
Member
Cringe. Cringe is definitely the appropriate reaction.
Because I've made lots and lots of IRL friends due to videogames, I'll have to disagree. I've met mostly great people that share my hobby, including some of my closest friends. I'm actually going to say I haven't interacted with a GG-like gamer yet (which is why this blows my mind). That being said, at this point I'm okay if the media needs to "demonize" gamers as a whole if that's what it's needed to properly expose and shame hateful jerks that believe they're free to be awful people. I'll happily show with my acts that I'm not one of them.
plagiarize
Banned
Look, speaking as someone who Jack once directly insulted in an e-mail (and still obviously proud of it), I do still strongly believe that there is no evidence that violent video games are harmful, or any more harmful than all the other violent media out there... but I do think it's important to understand the messages they contain, and I think parents should ultimately be the arbiters of what their kids play and I think it's important that they understand that gaming can increase aggression.
At the same time, I think games need to improve with how women are represented. I constantly point to the way women are much better represented in genre TV, and how that improving their representation there didn't transform genre TV into something that guys couldn't enjoy anymore.
Genre TV isn't perfect, but it demonstrates that you can do better than we're doing in gaming right now.
Positive roll models are hugely important. If all the heroes on TV just solved things with violence then I'd probably be rallying against violence in TV.
But as I try to do with stories about violence in video games, I try to look at the actual evidence and studies, and we know that representation of women in fiction has an influence on children as their impressions develop.
And we aren't talking about banning anything, as is always done with games. We're talking about highlighting what we see as the problem, criticizing people who we think are putting out bad stuff and encouraging people to do more progressive work.
That's how and why free speech works. The violence in games angle was about trying to pass actual law to limit something because of a message it contained (violence solves problems)... this has nothing to do with censorship. It's about trying to change attitudes, and trying to make gaming a place where everyone can have fun.
Yeah. We'll probably lose some stuff that's seen as harmless now... as we lost stuff like minstrel shows and racist stereotypes in Tom and Jerry cartoons which were seen as harmful then...
But it'll be because we grew and learned.
Anita is the one trying to vocalize an opinion. The GamerGate crew are the ones trying to surpress it, all while calling people out for trying to censor things.
Because they don't *remotely* get it. Anyone panicking this much about there potentially being less misogyny in their games is obviously a fan of misogyny.
Uhh...
The Stopgamergate2014 tag seems to be taking up a lot of tweets and also bringing gamergate up along with it.
:0 dunno what's going to happen next. Also this guy feels very relevant.
The Stopgamergate2014 tag seems to be taking up a lot of tweets and also bringing gamergate up along with it.
:0 dunno what's going to happen next. Also this guy feels very relevant.
That's really the hard truth about it too. They burned/are burning any good will we may have had towards us as videogame enthusiasts.
It's unpleasant to think about, but there's no denying it. It's become so normal to us that it's easy to write it off as "just how things are", and the extremists are just some fringe group, but that's how things like #GamerGate get so big. We've just accepted this toxic way of thinking and now it's biting us in the ass.
When I first read the "Gamers are over" article I had the same knee-jerk reaction (well I read the headline, I didn't actually read the article) but actually reading the article, I agree with it completely.
We do need to cast off the former image of what a Gamer represented and show the world that we ARE inclusive, and we really do want a richer, deeper expanse of experiences within the gaming space.
plagiarize
Banned
force them all the way into the mainstream press. force them into common discussion. the more people that put eyes on it, the more obvious it's going to be what's really going on. They can pull the wool over some gamer's eyes by going 'we're gamers just like you' but that doesn't work on people who aren't gamers.
That's why I always point to other things that represent women better than gaming does. Because even if nothing is perfect, and even if other things are as bad or worse, as gamers we should want to be one of the things doing it better, not pointing to the things even more misogynistic to justify not pulling our weight.
Genre TV demonstrates that you can be more inclusive without becoming the watered down crap people against such things claim will happen.
Quote
Member
I'm not sure there is anything to pull from that data besides awareness. How many of those are pro/con on either hashtag? That would be valuable data.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Part of the reaction to the "Gamers are over" article was that Leigh Alexander's appearances on Giant Bomb kind of painted a target on her. That was one reason she wasn't big on Giant Bomb as an organization, because they hung her out to dry following that and then "accidentally" leaked a screencap of a chat window where Ryan Davis was making fun of her while she was in the room. Then when a lot of that dislike flowed in to her criticism of their hiring choices, and the community who overreacted to that criticism, things just got worse.
So she developed an unfair reputation as shrill and reactionary because of it. Which is why I think it's all the more important Giant Bomb's San Francisco staff come out unambiguously against Gamergate, but we've had that discussion.
So she developed an unfair reputation as shrill and reactionary because of it. Which is why I think it's all the more important Giant Bomb's San Francisco staff come out unambiguously against Gamergate, but we've had that discussion.
More_Badass
Member
For my Junior seminar project, I researched the literature on video game violence and found that the vast majority of it was biased, agenda driven, and it's apparent that the researchers went in with the assumption that games cause violence. The more current, objective research showed no lasting effects (only really increases in aggression while playing and shortly after) and that factors like familial relationship and socioeconomic status are the likely cause for violence, not video games. Also there was very very little research done on adolescents and young adults; most was done on young kids.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I didn't originally reply to this because I didn't have anything to add, but I just wanted to be clear: I absolutely believe the push back against those that tried to use video game violence to drive an agenda was just and necessary.
But I do think it also created a culture of fear and defensiveness among gamers. We emerged from war and some of us apparently slept with handguns under our pillows for years, ready to strike. They became paranoid and twisted and birthed...whatever this is.
Jack Thompson was a ridiculous figure pushing an agenda for crazy reasons. This is easily observable. The problem is that Gamergaters have told themselves and convinced themselves and brainwashed themselves in to believing the same of pro-diversity advocates. I am trying to figure out what someone could tell me in 2004 that would have gotten me to rethink my views on a movement I thought was for the best and, for the life of me, I am not sure there is anything beyond growing up.
I think it's fair to say the stopgamergate2014 people are bringing up the gamergate tag together. Getting it out into the mainstream will be both good and terrible at the same time. :\
Kids/adolescents grow up with time and with experience. Maybe they'll call up someone and realize there's a human on the line, but there's really little you can do until they see the problem themselves.
What I'm worried about are the adults. There are people who just never grow up, who never develop that empathy. I don't think that can sort itself out.
I'm happy that it's getting this sort of attention, but this complicates the "two sides" argument. Gamergate is going to justify themselves using that.
What I'm worried about are the adults. There are people who just never grow up, who never develop that empathy. I don't think that can sort itself out.
I'm happy that it's getting this sort of attention, but this complicates the "two sides" argument. Gamergate is going to justify themselves using that.
Quote
Member
It depends what is being said, if 50%, hell, lets go less at 25% of #GameGate is "This #GameGate thing sure seems like a hate group," that is pretty significant and doesn't mean anything in GG's favor.
But there isn't a way to know that without someone doing the research.
I don't think its just #StopGamerGate2014 either. The tag was made as it was hitting mainstream media with the MSNBC interview and HuffPo Live debate.
Did you read the thread title?
They were irrationally justifying crappy behavior for months before the stop hashtag. From what I've seen anecdotally there's a lot of people using both in the same tweet.
#GGers have been terrified about "feminists" "taking their games away".
I will roll on the floor laughing if the end result is parents/girlfriends/wives actually taking games away because of the inevitable negative mainstream press coverage that's coming.
crimsonheadGCN
Banned
NYTimes article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/t...video-game-threats-anita-sarkeesian.html?_r=0
Will be frontpage tomorrow:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/t...video-game-threats-anita-sarkeesian.html?_r=0
Will be frontpage tomorrow:
One recurring argument was "the other side is just as bad", to which the obvious rebuttal is "there is no other side, they aren't claiming affiliation". Maybe it's pessimism on my part, but I get the feeling that Gamergate is going to be galvanized by having a visible opponent, so to speak.
Overall, it can only be a positive, though.
This whole thing is beyond stupid and is quite scary given how horrible the internet can be. The idea of a movement questioning the ethics in the gaming press can be a good one as there are issues affecting it today that deserve to be called out. Things like the treatment of consumers from the press in regards to the announcements of platforms where gamers were belittled and corporations getting pats on the back.
The problem is that gamersgate doesn't focus on anything remotely on that. It started from looking into a situation where there was potential of sexual favours being exchanged for good press. When that was quickly dismissed as untrue and 100% proven to be that nothing shady was going on, the movement still continues to focus on women and is singling them out. If you want to ask questions related to ethics in journalism then go ahead but associating yourself with a movement that was never about that and is instead focused on attacking women means that one is actively being associated with misogynistic assholes.
The problem is that gamersgate doesn't focus on anything remotely on that. It started from looking into a situation where there was potential of sexual favours being exchanged for good press. When that was quickly dismissed as untrue and 100% proven to be that nothing shady was going on, the movement still continues to focus on women and is singling them out. If you want to ask questions related to ethics in journalism then go ahead but associating yourself with a movement that was never about that and is instead focused on attacking women means that one is actively being associated with misogynistic assholes.
More_Badass
Member
Huh, doesn't demonize gaming or gamers
And the comments aren't terrible, I can't believe it
keep scrolling down and give it some time
tonysidaway
Member
Hey, I'm nearly sixty, and I wrote my first (horrible, crappy) game in 1973. We did have computers back in the Cretaceous, you know!
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
if anyone wants a laugh: comic tweeted by people associated with Gamergate:
.
The smug look on the guys face made me think parody.
If it's not, that's just sad.
More_Badass
Member
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Yeah, I thought ShreddedMoose was a big parody...
Also, a real GamerGate comic would probably grossly exaggerate the appearances of Anita and Zoe, I imagine.
Also, a real GamerGate comic would probably grossly exaggerate the appearances of Anita and Zoe, I imagine.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Nope!
Shredded Mouse has been around a number of years. I don't know if this person is new or the same guy, but Shredded Moose has always been about misogynistic PUA logic and how terrible women are.
Or at least pay lip service to "it's about ethics and integrity!" defence.
Actually, admitting they just want women to "STFU" might be the most honest thing about that cartoon.
Geez. Poe's Law I guess.
I tend to agree actually but I know a lot wouldn't. The easiest way to attract attention to something is shout back at it. The amount of crazy psychos who would send death threats will only increase with increased exposure to any controversy.
I never understand this nonsense. It is a common issue in multiple industries.
Education/Nursing are mostly female.
Engineer/Construction are mostly male.
But we have never make a social issue/injustice comments about these industries.
There are plenty of youth programs/scholarships to help young girls break into these fields. Our culture has always associated math and science are for boys so these industries have to deal with it.
For nursing, certain nursing field can't be offered to male candidates. And the harassment for being a male in the nursing field can be daunting.
All these programs and exclusions are somehow not sexism.
So why do people keep pushing for more female developers when the company and the industry don't have a choice in this decision?
Candidates are a finite and limited resources, you can't change the fact that minority of developers are female due to society sigma and gender preference from the day they were born.
If the female candidate pool is already small then just like every other industries, you will be limited to that resource.
But there isn't anything wrong with it since you can't tell female/male to go into a field that they don't like.
The gaming industry should not be hit for a common issue like this.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I don't think you really need to play video games to point out what's problematic about them, really.
There's no context that the act of holding a controller adds that makes, say, Shadows of the Damned any less unsettling. You can argue intention all you want (it would be easy to say they meant it to be unsettling), but that isn't something made more apparent through the act of playing.
Not that it matters, as it's clearly not something that applies to Sarkeesian here. Just thought it was always a bit of a hollow charge.
There's no context that the act of holding a controller adds that makes, say, Shadows of the Damned any less unsettling. You can argue intention all you want (it would be easy to say they meant it to be unsettling), but that isn't something made more apparent through the act of playing.
Not that it matters, as it's clearly not something that applies to Sarkeesian here. Just thought it was always a bit of a hollow charge.
ShockingAlberto
Member
There is nothing inherent about STEM fields that makes women unlikely to go in to them. Women are unlikely to go in to them because they face harassment, uneven salaries, and are frequently passed over for promotions because of their gender.
If you were a woman looking to go in to game development, after the last few weeks, would you?
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I was under the impression those newer Shredded Moose comics were a parody, mostly since the creators of the old comic seemed to go out of their way a few years ago to bury it and make sure no trace of it existed on the internet (probably why its entry on the bad comics wiki comes up first when you search for it).
Going to be simultaneously hilarious and depressing if this is a legitimate revival of it.
Going to be simultaneously hilarious and depressing if this is a legitimate revival of it.
Quote
Member
Women should also get paid the same as their male coworkers who put in the same work and talent. Some should get paid more if they're offering diverse talent that the males can't ect. This is just one issue and pressure that a woman would have to deal vs. man.
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