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[CosmicQueso]

Good insight. I'll happily defer to you here. For the purposes of this conversation, I was shying away from acknowledging the growth in mobile/social development not because I don't think they count as "real" games or anything silly like that, but because it certainly complicates the analysis of assessing how diverse gaming is.

It does certainly complicate things.

At this point, however, the audience that the industry is attempting to appeal to is approaching the size and scale of other entertainment mediums. Not really sure any other medium has had this scale of transition (perhaps Comics to a lesser degree?)

Surprisingly, it was probably the Console market (the Wii in particular) that provided the bridge. Anyways, sorry for the tangent. I definitely appreciate and understand everything you're saying.

 

[jschreier]

We hope that a lot, but it rarely turns out that way, unfortunately. Particularly not when we have a bevy of martyrs willing to burn sockpuppet accounts to shit up threads. Our issue is currently one of staffing. Existing staff is spending so much time dealing with a single GG thread that we're already having issues covering other threads, and we decided that for now, we can only handle this thread.

Of course, I'd be plenty happy if this thread actually discussed games journalism, given that's what #gg is supposedly about, and that would certainly be more interesting to me on a personal level than the fiftieth recitation of the definitions of feminism or censorship.

Yeah, I sympathize. Modding this site cannot be easy.

 

[More_Badass]

Edit: I think I totally misunderstood you. Disregard.

If I need to clarify, I just find it shocking (well, maybe not shocking) that people can take a sentence, take the meaning entirely out of context from the message of the article, and form an entire opinion around that one out-of-context sentence

I guess it stands out to me, since I've been writing psychology research papers for the past year and one of the first things you learn is how to analyze research literature: what's the question, what's the implications of the research, what are the consequences, how could you improve upon the research, what other questions could arise from the conclusion, were there any errors in the methods, were the researchers biased, etc

So it's sad and disappointing to see people form such set-in-stone opinions, justified by out-of-context and distorted sentences and phrases

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I'm watching the 3 female GGers on huffpro interview, this is quite something.

 

[Anton Sugar]

I'm watching the 3 female GGers on huffpro interview, this is quite something.

That's a good description for it.

 

[Patryn]

Maureen Ryan, the television critic for The Huffington Post, has posted a piece on this whole mess.

While most of the piece is about what you expect (gives a primer on the whole thing, expresses horror at how bad the harassment has gotten), it also allows her to examine the reactions that she's gotten as a prominent female critic.

It also further proves that this whole thing is starting to blow up in the mainstream, in a way that, hopefully, will damper the strength of the GG movement as it exposes has poisoned and hateful the whole thing is.

As I refuse to go to their sites, what is the GG's reaction to this sudden wave of mainstream attention, especially given most of it doesn't seem to paint them in the greatest light?

 

[More_Badass]

Did Leign Alexander always write for Rock Paper Shotgun? Just noticed she was the author of an article
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/16/lo-fi-lets-play-the-institute/

 

[Intheflorsh]

Did Leign Alexander always write for Rock Paper Shotgun? Just noticed she was the author of an article
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/16/lo-fi-lets-play-the-institute/

She's a freelancer, she's written for a bunch of sites.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

So things I have learned from watching that segment:

1. Neogaf is a journalist website

2. when a journalist points out "SJW" isn't a nice term you should repeatedly use it 4 more times, loudly.

3. It's totally okay to use your ethnicity and gender to deflect criticism regarding an entire movement's inclusivity issues. (#yesyourshield?)

4. GG isn't about feminism but it's definitely about feminism.

5. nobody can prove GG harassed anyone ever but the opposition definitely harasses a ton.


I might've missed one or two things.

 

[Noaloha]

Did Leign Alexander always write for Rock Paper Shotgun? Just noticed she was the author of an article
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/10/16/lo-fi-lets-play-the-institute/

I'm pretty sure she freelances a whole bunch. Here's a piece she did for Shut Up And Sit Down, in which she tries to learn how to play Netrunner (a card game with a somewhat steep initial learning curve) and, in so doing, wrestles with some self-reflection.

edit: oops, beaten

 

[HereticJ]

The Young Turks covered this as their first news story. Pretty weird to see how non-gamers are viewing things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhjFarhm2Jo&list=UU1yBKRuGpC1tSM73A0ZjYjQ

I apologize if this has been posted already, it can be hard to keep up in this thread.

Edit: Also, I can't believe that university wouldn't ban guns after someone threatened her with a gun. Just really can't wrap my head around it.

 

[Jim Sterling]

So things I have learned from watching that segment:

1. Neogaf is a journalist website

2. when a journalist points out "SJW" isn't a nice term you should repeatedly use it 4 more times, loudly.

3. It's totally okay to use your ethnicity and gender to deflect criticism regarding an entire movement's inclusivity issues. (#yesyourshield?)

4. GG isn't about feminism but it's definitely about feminism.

5. nobody can prove GG harassed anyone ever but the opposition definitely harasses a ton.


I might've missed one or two things.

Oh, you've adequately described what half my twitter reply feed looked like for the past few weeks!

 

[GeordieMark]

Talk about selective reading comprehension

Excepts from emails people sent



Man, people get hung up on one phrase, one sentence, without considering the whole content of the piece.

I totally agree with you that people should look at the whole piece to understand the context, rather than zeroing in on a phrase or sentence and getting hung up on it, but at the same time some of the terms used do seem rather unnecessary and only serve to wind people up.

There is no need for the childish insults. You can be trying to make a point about almost anything and as soon as you resort to that kind of language, you're going to turn some people off, no matter how valid the point you are making is.

I would recommend anyone writing about GG rises above that, and make their point in a calm and clear way. Quite often that approach is more impactful than resorting to pithy insults.

 

[Spider from Mars]

The Young Turks covered this as their first news story. Pretty weird to see how non-gamers are viewing things.

They talked about in on Al Jazeera last night and their conclusion was that some people take kideo games way too seriously. Some people need to get a grip.

 

[Brakke]

I do have to thank these clowns for ruining the word "based". I never quite figured out how to use it myself, now that it's become part of the Vocabulary of Jerks: I needn't bother.

 

[Shake Appeal]

I do have to thank these clowns for ruining the word "based". I never quite figured out how to use it myself, now that it's become part of the Vocabulary of Jerks: I needn't bother.

Don't worry, they are being decidedly un-based.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Oh, you've adequately described what half my twitter reply feed looked like for the past few weeks!

I can only hope the other half was incredibly positive. :x

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

They are calling for a boycott of Blizzard on that page. So I think to myself... gee... it MUST be because of the Gamespot stuff.

But no. It's because Blizzard advertise on Kotaku and 'Kotaku attacks their customers'.

Right?! They were so very close to actually addressing an issue, and it turns out they're upset about advertising on fucking kotaku. You just can't make this stuff up.

I do have to thank these clowns for ruining the word "based". I never quite figured out how to use it myself, now that it's become part of the Vocabulary of Jerks: I needn't bother.

Yeah. I find it really annoying that they're also using the word 'meow' to throw off word clouds.

 

[Jim Sterling]

I can only hope the other half was incredibly positive. :x

People have been pretty wonderful since I got placed in the crosshairs. Really shows you who actually cares about games media content and videogames, and who's just in this shit to be spiteful.

 

[Ayt]

This letter to PixieJenni had some good points I thought: https://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/2014/10/16/gamergate-as-a-defence-of-internet-culture/

It's pretty raw, but it makes the point that a lot of GamersGate is basically the defense of 4chan style lawless internet culture.

And today on twitter PixieJenni gets gaslit and told she is an insane cultist in need of deprogramming by a prominent gamergater claiming he's a mental health professional.

 

[Cybit]

It's kind of ironic that in their efforts to destroy her, her enemies have done nothing but raise her profile into the stratosphere. They literally are providing a far bigger megaphone than she could have ever achieved on her own.

The tragic part of this is that those same enemies fail to understand their role in this, and can only think that somehow, because she's inadvertently benefited from all this, she must have caused all this and enjoyed it all.

I also suspect that if you asked her if her newfound fame was worth the price she's paid, she would unequivocally say no.

Considering that had they not even gone after her during the kickstarter phase, there is a good chance that none of this even begins, the irony is absolutely hilarious from all of this.

Someone asked her about the price of fame at GGC last weekend and she seemed to think it was worth it (was hearing this as a side conversation, so I might have misheard). Now whether the same answer would be given after a few beers is unknown, but she seemed ok with it in the context of bringing these issues to the forefront.

Congrats #GG, you've now turned Anita into the spokeswoman for feminist critique of gaming (which as someone who finds her methodology flawed, I'm not particularly happy about, but, hey w/e, we live in a world with Sean Hannity, I can deal). You managed to take the bad position you were in and make it the worst.

 

[dLMN8R]

GamerGate is an attack on ethical journalism

1) The main target of #GamerGate is not a journalist. She’s a video game developer. Holding her accountable for “ethics in journalism” is like telling your accountant that it’s his job to negotiate peace treaties in the Middle East.

2) The second biggest target of #GamerGate is an exemplar of clean journalism. If what you don’t like about gaming journalism is that it’s too cozy with the industry and therefore the writers are afraid to be critical, then your fucking hero should be Anita Sarkeesian. She funded herself with Kickstarter and not industry money. She is harshly critical of video games, even as she is a fan. She is the ideal of what a critical gaming journalist should be: Knowledgeable, critical, fair, thorough and utterly non-corrupt.

3) The biggest victory to date of #GamerGate has been an attack on ethical journalism. One of the most important ideas when it comes to ethical journalism is that there’s a wall between advertising and editorial. #GamerGaters hate this rule of ethics, because, as opponents of ethical journalism, they wish to control what journalists say and censor any ideas or opinions that they don’t want to hear. And so they have been targeting advertisers, trying to get them to pull ads from gaming websites that publish ideas they wish to censor.

5) The most recent target of #GamerGate was selected because she engages in ethical journalism. If Brianna Wu had kept her mouth shut and just quietly developed video games, she probably would have been left alone. Instead, she dipped her toe into the art of writing ethical journalistic pieces. But, because they are opponents of ethical journalism, #GamerGaters attacked Wu like they do any other young woman that doesn’t just churn out mindless pro-sexist propaganda.

6) One of the main leaders of #GamerGate works for Breitbart. Milo Yiannopoulos has been up front, rallying the troops of #GamerGate and even helping them select the inevitably young, female targets for harassment. He also works for Breitbart, an organization whose hostility towards ethical journalism is legendary. No surprise there, because #GamerGate is also opposed to ethical journalism.

In other words, #GamerGate is about “ethics in journalism” in the same way Fox News is “fair and balanced”, which is to say “not in the slightest and, in fact, they are the opposite”. Fox News called itself “fair and balanced” to cover for a not-exactly-discreet intention to be unfair, unbalanced and frequently just straight up misleading. And so #GamerGate claims to be about ethics in journalism, when in fact it is about the opposite: Bullying gaming journalists until they get in line with a corporate-friendly agenda of uncritically marketing “games pitched at the intellectual and emotional level of a 16-year-old suburban masturbator“. Anyone who actually tries to talk about anything interesting or intellectually engaging, particularly if female, will be drilled out with harassment.

Fucking owns

This is amazing.

 

[QuantumZebra]

It's not defining or describing culture so much as what the outside world sees gaming culture as.

Did you read the next few paragraphs?


She's saying we are known for the few bad apples because we do nothing to discourage them. We tolerate them in our community and allow them to prosper. We tell people who don't wanna put up with the crap to go to a different a server if they don't like it. Or "trolls gonna troll." By not doing anything about them, they become the default, and those of us who don't like them have to alter our behavior around them. They become our voice because we are silent.

Damn good post.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

People have been pretty wonderful since I got placed in the crosshairs. Really shows you who actually cares about games media content and videogames, and who's just in this shit to be spiteful.

You'll probably know far more about this than me, but I'm actually having a hard time picturing GGers actually being fans of you to begin with.

A lot of your videos are exactly about the types of things that disgust them (feminism, being generally self reflective, being right) so the language of "betrayal" seems more like an attempt to seem like they cared rather than something said by actual fans.

 

[Brakke]

Don't worry, they are being decidedly un-based.

Given their track record on the subject of "understanding words", I'm sure they're doing it wrong.

 

[Dr_LucienSanchez]

People have been pretty wonderful since I got placed in the crosshairs. Really shows you who actually cares about games media content and videogames, and who's just in this shit to be spiteful.

Yeah, I mean, because of all this stuff going on I've recently become been checking your work out and have been really digging it. I'd imagine that there are others like me also. It's just that the loud voices drown out anything else, which is too bad.

 

[Oidisco]

And today on twitter PixieJenni gets gaslit and told she is an insane cultist in need of deprogramming by a prominent gamergater claiming he's a mental health professional.

Yea, that King of Pol guy is kinda fucked up me thinks. He seriously cannot deal with the fact that she disagrees with him, so she must be sick and he needs to help her.

Fucking hell...

 

[nikoz]

This is amazing.

I knew something felt wrong about this whole thing.

 

[Jim Sterling]

You'll probably know far more about this than me, but I'm actually having a hard time picturing GGers actually being fans of you to begin with.

A lot of your videos are exactly about the types of things that disgust them (feminism, being generally self reflective, being right) so the language of "betrayal" seems more like an attempt to seem like they cared rather than something said by actual fans.

There have been *some* actual fans of my work who seem to view my lack of support for GG as treachery, and no, I have NO idea how they could be fans and ever believe I'd be on board with any of it. Before then, there *are* some folks who seem like me in spite of my "SJW tendencies," so there is that.

For the most part, however, those who really went in with attempts to shame me into agreement and accusations of betrayal were not even so much as following me on twitter, while their statements regarding my work exhibited a fundamental lack of understanding of it, leading me to believe they were piecing together assumptions rather than actual content. Those feigning offense at me the hardest were clearly never fans to begin with.

 

[fallout]

That kotakuinaction subreddit sure is something special, eh? I'm reading it now and the the top posts involve a really humorous boycott thing, some heroic GG effort against doxing, and an elaborate conversion story about somebody going from 'anti' to 'pro-gg.' I hate that I'm even suggesting this, but the last one reads like the biggest fantasy ever.

A lot of weird stuff. I had no idea.

Is that subreddit meant to be representative of what the movement wants? I'm not seeing much, if anything about journalistic ethics. It's mostly meta-discussion consisting of:

• Articles/posts/tweets in favour of the movement.
• Articles/posts/tweets in opposition of the movement.
• Posts about how the movement is doing things without actually saying anything about journalistic ethics.
• Criticism of SJW's.
• Criticism of Anita Sarkeesian's Utah talk cancellation.
• Brianna Wu's fruit thing (?).

There's also a boycott of Blizzard (to pull ads from Kotaku) and some complaints about Polygon's Bayo 2 review. Unless they're concerned about Blizzard advertising on a site that might be reviewing their games, those have nothing to do with ethics, either.

I'm going to guess that someone supportive of the movement will tell me that this subreddit isn't meant to be representative of the movement's goals with regard to journalistic ethics, but I can't really find anything that is.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

There have been *some* actual fans of my work who seem to view my lack of support for GG as treachery, and no, I have NO idea how they could be fans and ever believe I'd be on board with any of it. Before then, there *are* some folks who seem like me in spite of my "SJW tendencies," so there is that.

For the most part, however, those who really went in with attempts to shame me into agreement and accusations of betrayal were not even so much as following me on twitter, while their statements regarding my work exhibited a fundamental lack of understanding of it, leading me to believe they were piecing together assumptions rather than actual content. Those feigning offense at me the hardest were clearly never fans to begin with.

Yeah I figured. Then again they seem to be quite forgiving regarding past behavior as long as you kindly go "oh yes GG I love you ~<3" (e.g. Milo)

 

[Prax]

I didn't realize, but CBC news also summarized and weighed in: http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/yourcom...the-internet-has-had-enough-of-gamergate.html

I also like how they emphasize the Canadian-ness of Anita and stopgamergate2014. lol

I have to keep remembering to not read the comments out of morbid curiosity. lol Gosh those pro-gg fools make me cringe. The fight they are having with their cognitive dissonance is just short of being worthy of pity though.

 

[plagiarize]

Is that subreddit meant to be representative of what the movement wants? I'm not seeing much, if anything about journalistic ethics. It's mostly meta-discussion consisting of:

• Articles/posts/tweets in favour of the movement.
• Articles/posts/tweets in opposition of the movement.
• Posts about how the movement is doing things without actually saying anything about journalistic ethics.
• Criticism of SJW's.
• Criticism of Anita Sarkeesian's Utah talk cancellation.
• Brianna Wu's fruit thing (?).

There's also a boycott of Blizzard (to pull ads from Kotaku) and some complaints about Polygon's Bayo 2 review. Unless they're concerned about Blizzard advertising on a site that might be reviewing their games, those have nothing to do with ethics, either.

I'm going to guess that someone supportive of the movement will tell me that this subreddit isn't meant to be representative of the movement's goals with regard to journalistic ethics, but I can't really find anything that is.

We don't need to ask them what their goal is.

I mean, they're super happy that someone who works at Microsoft supports them and their cause.

I believe that ultimately the game devs coming out in support of the gamers is what will end this whole scandal, or at least tip the balance so much in our favor that they (the SJWs and other groups of ‘special snowflakes’) will simply stop trying to interfere with our games and culture in such an aggressive way.

Sure, he completely defrocks the whole movement's true goals and exposes it for everyone to see, but hey, like the daily instances of that, they can just deny they ever happened! Problem solved right?

"Stop trying to interfere with OUR games."

There's a statement that sums up the whole movement.

Hey, people who play games and think they should be less sexist, STOP TRYING TO INTERFERE WITH THE SEXISM IN MY GAMES.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I just noticed Anita's essentially wearing a feminine version of a lumberjack shirt.

 

[Stet]

I just noticed Anita's essentially wearing a feminine version of a lumberjack shirt.

Here in Canada, we just call them shirts.

 

[Menome]

People have been pretty wonderful since I got placed in the crosshairs. Really shows you who actually cares about games media content and videogames, and who's just in this shit to be spiteful.

I admit that I was initially put off of your work by the issues that you've addressed and apologised for and only started getting into Jimquisition et al. this year, thanks to GAF's weekly threads.

Since then I've come to respect you and your work, even if there's been a couple of bullet points I didn't agree with (and feeling that you blatantly cheated in your Doom II Uncivil War video by hiding in a corner ). I know it's a drop in the ocean amongst everything else going on, but I want to say thank you for what you're doing and the stance you're taking.

 

[ICKE]

Congrats #GG, you've now turned Anita into the spokeswoman for feminist critique of gaming (which as someone who finds her methodology flawed, I'm not particularly happy about, but, hey w/e, we live in a world with Sean Hannity, I can deal). You managed to take the bad position you were in and make it the worst.

I'm not certain it is necessarily a loss if a divisive feminist like Anita is seen as the figurehead of the opposing side. Her somewhat flawed messaging only serves to disenfranchise gamers especially when media plays along and calls them basement dwelling white geeks or what have you. Now we have a bunch of outtlets giving legitimacy to every loon and entrenching both sides. When the environment becomes toxic and every negative sentence or picture is seen as representative of the other, you can expect gridlock. This is fertile ground for endless fame wars just like in real life politics. We only need Fox News and "Yes yes gamers are a blight and you can even simulate mass murder of women in xyz games" to complete this growing siege mentality. The only time they would probably be willing to stand with social progressives to score some points among their viewers.

Its just madness though oddly entertaining. I watched the TYT broadcast and the comment section was a mix of loons screaming to one another.

 

[partyphone]

I didn't realize, but CBC news also summarized and weighed in: http://www.cbc.ca/newsblogs/yourcom...the-internet-has-had-enough-of-gamergate.html

I also like how they emphasize the Canadian-ness of Anita and stopgamergate2014. lol

I have to keep remembering to not read the comments out of morbid curiosity. lol Gosh those pro-gg fools make me cringe. The fight they are having with their cognitive dissonance is just short of being worthy of pity though.

I personally love the concern trolls.

Calling out these people is just making things worse!

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Here in Canada, we just call them shirts.

Because to you guys chopping wood is as natural a thing to do as being alive? :3c

 

[BlastProcessing]

My opinions about this whole case:

Also when it coems to the Zoe Quinn stuff. The amount of shit and disgusting things, rapoe threats, death threats etc. that came towards her are disgusting. What she did is fo course horrible to do, but that does not mean she deserved it. And form what Ive read the men she slept with did not receive the same amount of shit like she did. But Ive not read too much up on this.

The amount of disgusting stuff Ive read from people who supports this GamerGate thing is terifying.

I might not agree with everything Anita says, but the amount of harrasment agaisnt women going on in the industry is disgusting and frightening.

Im dissapointing in my culture. Tons on gamers are so conservative that as soon as somebody speaks up against something people love the harassments and threats are coming.

Ive seen a bit of Anitas videos. They are very interesting. I do not agree with everything she says (and Im a feminist). What she has been saying has started a discussion I feel it's time we have.

There are so many examples of women in the games industry who are being threated like Anita (happily not that muc). If a woman gives GTA a low score, expresses ehre opinion on what she want to be changed in a game the harassment starts.

I'll bite. What horrible thing did Zoe Quinn do?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I'll bite. What horrible thing did Zoe Quinn do?

According to her ex she was basically Hitler.

 

[SwissLion]

I just noticed Anita's essentially wearing a feminine version of a lumberjack shirt.

I wear a shirt very much like hers a lot. It's my favourite shirt and I'm a dude.

Oh my... does this make me... a

Spoiler

CANADIAN FEMINIST MEDIA CRITIC

?!

 

[Menome]

I'll bite. What horrible thing did Zoe Quinn do?

She dyed her hair purple, The Colour Purple is a social-justicey kind of book and film starring black actress Whoopi Goldberg, who once guested on an episode of Absolutely Fabulous to perform a lesbian wedding ceremony. That's enough social justice elements to send a toxic GGer into overdrive.

 

[meijiko]

I wear a shirt very much like hers a lot. It's my favourite shirt and I'm a dude.

Oh my... does this make me... a

Spoiler

CANADIAN FEMINIST MEDIA CRITIC

?!

Lumberjack shirts are clearly a SJW feminazi conspiracy.

 

[BlastProcessing]

According to her ex she was basically Hitler.

Can you imagine a world where everybody's Exes got to define them?

Yikes.

I mean, I guess it would make job interviews more fun.

 

[bbsting120]

http://thisisinfamous.com/gamergate-allow-monsters-live-among-anyone-will-see/

Another long, but good read.

 

[plagiarize]

I'll bite. What horrible thing did Zoe Quinn do?

She cheated on her boyfriend, which, you know, doesn't make you a great person... but it's got nothing to do with anything really.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I wear a shirt very much like hers a lot. It's my favourite shirt and I'm a dude.

Oh my... does this make me... a

Spoiler

CANADIAN FEMINIST MEDIA CRITIC

?!

Well there was that Gator that thought two different people were the same because both of them ended their tweets in a period. Sooo... yeah. With them that's a totally plausible assumption.

 

[FlyinJ]

The parallels between Gamer Gate and the Tea Party are almost 1:1


Every mainstream news organization calls them out for what they are - check
Every single mainstream news organization is biased and corrupt because of this - check
Chock full of sociopathic libertarians - check
Tons of members oblivious to the actual birth and reason for the movement - check
Absurd illogical social media rants - check

I could go on and on...

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I'll bite. What horrible thing did Zoe Quinn do?

I'm going to give the person you're responding to the benefit of the doubt and assume they have strong feelings about infidelity. And if so, I'll just note that I can see that perspective, but note that it's really not relevant to the broader conversation and suggest moving on.