I just listened to this. It has been a long time since I've heard something that embarrassing.
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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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I just listened to this. It has been a long time since I've heard something that embarrassing.
I have some trouble with the argument that everything they do in terms of charity or fundrising it's just spite-funding or things that make them look better. Just saw some boogie's tweets about a new fundrising to PACER's national bullying prevention center. https://www.crowdrise.com/gamergatestompsoutbullying/fundraiser/loping
Seems to me like this could be proof that many people in gamergate are indeed trying to make good things from inside the movement, but in terms of feminism and social issues they lean towards far-right in the politics spectrum, finding gamergate crowd comfortable.
I will agree that focusing more on Grayson would've been less sexist.
As for your second point, I don't really feel that comparison works. Here we have evidence-albeit evidence that was proven wrong since-that she did something wrong. To attack her for that based on evidence is not sexist. If his attack was based solely on sexism, then he would've ignored all evidence. You could argue that he wanted to attack her for sexist reasons and then built false evidence to support his case, but I don't believe he did that. I believe he found evidence of wrongdoing and attacked her for it, without sexism factoring in.
I do want to make a side note that the majority of you have been very helpful in this discussion, providing links and evidence, and I'm enjoying having it.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
This actually highlights another troubling aspect of gaters: it's entirely natural that they may have genuine empathy for other causes and charities, while still being blind to the hateful nature of what they're doing/trying to do to gaming and the people involved.
BlastProcessing
Member
I don't care how he justifies his actions. Everybody is the hero of their own movie. I am sure he thinks that the people he hurts are deserving. I never said he was working for money, I said he was working for clicks.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Five Guys is a 25 minute video about inconsequential bull shit. You've got to be kidding me that this guy was anything but an asshole for dedicating that kind of effort to this crap.
No we don't.
There was no evidence Grayson ever wrote a review for Quinn or gave her favorable coverage. The only evidence presented was an article Grayson wrote mentioning Depression Quest had been Greenlit, and that occured before their relationship even began.
This is just as unsubstantiated as the homosexuals cause tornadoes claim.
I have to kind of agree. At this point, I feel like the good goals of GamerGate-calling out some journalists for unethical behavior, showing that gamers don't like articles written lumping them all together as being hateful, and showing a demand for more integrity in gaming journalism in general-have been accomplished. We've seen evidence of these things happening across several sites, and I don't really see what good there's left to push for. Like, at this point, what is there left to accomplish?
BlastProcessing
Member
They could get some more advertisers to pull money to pressure outlets to change their editorial. Because getting Journalists to cow to advertisers is the type of hard hitting ethical reform that this industry needs.
Indeed. She actually wrote an article a couple years back on what she's experienced in the atheist community:
http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl...y_i_spoke_out_then_came_the_rape_threats.html
The parallels between that and what's happening with this recent movement are pretty striking.
I never was claiming he wasn't an asshole, hell, I even admitted he was.
I have to admit that I've mostly heard of GamerGate through InternetAristocrat, as I have been enjoying his videos long before this whole thing, and I came into this thread to gather some more information and to learn more about the other side of things. That said, I could've sworn he provided more evidence (not neccessarily true evidence, but evidence) than that.
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking too. Getting advertisers to pull ads because they're upset at an article lopping gamers together as being sexist isn't something I neccessarily disagree with, but doing it because they gave Bayonetta 2 a bad score (even if it was for reasons I wouldn't agree with) is a bad line to cross.
jim-jam bongs
Member
And does making a bunch of shit up to prove a woman slept to the top not strike you as a spectacularly sexist thing to do?
Hemi-PoweredDrone
Member
Yeah, her only option really is to continue what she's doing, as at least that bothers the haters. Any sort if a concession will make them feel like they're "winning" but still be pissed because she exists.
I missed what happened. Why are we talking about atheists?
You can be an atheist and an omnist. And you can also be a Christian and omnist. It's not really a religion, it's just the belief that there's a good reason people believe in stuff, even if you don't agree with some of it. If you're religious then you believe "in a single transcendent purpose or cause uniting all things or people" If you're non religious you believe "There may be an influence more akin to existentialism in which consciousness is a power or force that helps determine the reality, yet is not a divine influence."
It's just a good way to destroy any feelings of intolerance and hatred for me, personally. Trapping yourself into something and becoming more narrow-minded and stubborn as you grow, just doesn't feel right. Realizing that most people, down to their core are essentially one in the same, is a good feeling to have.Our worldviews, values, uncertainties, fears and dreams make up so much of our reality, to deny any one person's views would be...ehhh, troublesome.
I guess that's similar to how I treat agnosticism, I haven't looked far enough into it as it isn't a huge concern if mine. I just see different beliefs and just try to understand what they are and why they could believe them, even though I don't believe in them myself, unless one of the many things suddenly can convince me. I treat all beliefs equally (save for maybe scientology, as it's dogma seems too exploitative to have started as something people honestly believed in), by treating it all as a non-issue. It's generally.not worth it for a non-believer like me to really put much thought into what someone believes.
Who is boogie? I wasn't online much of the day and seen to have missed quite a bit of stuff.
Then that seems to have gotten lost in translation to someone that doesn't usually follow him, as it seemed to just from a rather angry place, our he's just trying to start shit. Him trying to be entertaining hasn't come of very well.
Not if he didn't make it up. If someone else made it up and he believed it, then he is a fool, not a sexist.
I'll agree, if you didn't really follow InternetAristocrat before GamerGate, it'd be easier to see him as some angry person trying to start shit on the internet, and not as someone poking fun at lolcows, sort of like Retsupurae or something.
WE DID IT GUYS
NOW WATCH THIS DRIVE
EmCeeGramr
Member
Hatchtag, the first time I ever heard of Internet Aristocrat was when he was implying that Jennifer Hepler's online harassment wasn't really that big of a deal and was only getting coverage because EA and BioWare were trying to drum up sympathy points to drown out all criticism of their games.
It was a bullshit idea that maybe seemed compelling to an angry dude on the internet back when everyone hated BioWare and EA for all of their fuckups, but in retrospect, no, he's always been a sexist, harassment apologist jackass.
It was a bullshit idea that maybe seemed compelling to an angry dude on the internet back when everyone hated BioWare and EA for all of their fuckups, but in retrospect, no, he's always been a sexist, harassment apologist jackass.
BlastProcessing
Member
It felt like there was more evidence because of the way he presented it. It was a shell game. He tries to get you emotionally involved in the facts. He tells a story. Then because you are so emotionally invested, your brain sort of smoothes over the inconsistencies and bridges the gaps in the facts. All he has to do is throw in a little innuendo and ask a few "honest questions" about what all this means and bingo bango you get something that feels way more substantial than it is.
When you think back on it you remember more about how the video made you feel than exactly what it said.
FF Seraphim
Member
WE DID IT GUYS
So we won?
He made much of it up, as has been communicated to you already.
Also, if you believe and defend bigoted beliefs, you are a bigot, regardless of whether you invented them.
I first heard of him through the video about the articles being outraged about the rape joke at Microsoft's E3 2013 conference. While I won't deny he's a jackass, I do believe he's a good entertainer, and I think there's some legitimately interesting videos on his channel, in particular one about a really bad Steam game that I wish more of his videos were like. Shame he can't be entertaining about things more rooted in facts than in fiction.
jim-jam bongs
Member
I'll come clean and admit that I'd never heard of InternetAristocrat until GamerGate. So I decided to see what Google brought up about his previous history. The only thing I could really find was this thread on The Escapist, where he is being celebrated and derided in equal measure for making fun of "SJWs".
So I'm quite happy to stick with my gut on this one and assume that he is and always has been a vile piece of shit.
So I'm quite happy to stick with my gut on this one and assume that he is and always has been a vile piece of shit.
I just wanted to chime in to say thank you for sharing this. Even if something like this doesn't make it to the heads and hearts of people who need it the most, at the very least it restores a small bit of my faith in humanity.
TheBryanJZX90
Member
Readily believing men claiming to be wronged by women while being extremely skeptical of women claiming to receive harassment is pretty damn sexist.
Dunno if the guy you're talking about accused Zoe/Anita of lying about harassment or if it was that other YouTube guy that keeps popping up.
Has anyone watched his Mighty Number Nine video? He basically blows completely irrelevant bullshit up to be a gigantic deal. I'd argue that it's even worse in this respect than the Zoe Quinn videos (though not anywhere near as personally damaging or having far-reaching consequences).
Boogie is a YT personalities who was for a very long time a "moderate" GG supporter. I just checked out his youtube and it looks like he deleted all his GG videos? And just uploaded this
http://youtu.be/TRY5IOrbw5s
He came into this thread about 2 months ago and people told him disassociate himself from GG because he seemed like a really nice guy. He couldn't comprehend why people would associate him with the trolls and harassers be cause he associated himself with GG. To be fair on the gaf side, the more he didn't comprehend, the more we got frustrated with him. He eventually had a bit of a break down. Maybe got banned, I am unsure on that part.
He start putting forth the message of peace and kindness while talking about GG.
When he started doing this a fair portion of GG'ers accused him of "pussying out" and he got even more hate.
Boogie did choose GG and ignored warnings. But he does genuinely seem well meaning, and truly believes in peace and kindness and being good to each other.
(If I've got stuff wrong or missed anything, feel free to call me out)
FF Seraphim
Member
Oh man that was an interesting discussion. Seriously though; the poor guy had at the very least 3 pages, I think 54-58 on this thread, where he had to explain himself or something. So I can see where the frustration came from.
BobbyRobby
Member
I watched one of his videos and I was turned off.
He was using some bizarre definition of rape that Zoe Quinn allegedly made up to say Zoe Quinn was a rapist by her own words. It was a huge stretch, and I didn't feel he had the acting chops to pull any of it off.
There are some TV religious pastors I can watch and respect their skill, even though they're frauds. I didn't even get that from what I saw of IA.
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
2 cents:
I'm all for equal opportunity & proper treatment of women in game development/journalism. Feminism shouldn't be forced on game content though. Women in video game content should vary from Elizabeth in Bioshock Infinite to the hookers in GTA. It's fiction. You can't derive reality from it. Also, I'm all for more professional and ethical game journalism.
I'm all for equal opportunity & proper treatment of women in game development/journalism. Feminism shouldn't be forced on game content though. Women in video game content should vary from Elizabeth in Bioshock Infinite to the hookers in GTA. It's fiction. You can't derive reality from it. Also, I'm all for more professional and ethical game journalism.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Who's forcing feminism on game content?
And who exactly is forcing feminism on game content?
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
To those asking, I didn't mean anyone or any group in particular, but I do personally feel like female representation in games has been subject to unwarranted scrutiny.
I don't necessarily agree with all of the examples in Anita's videos, but she presents so many, and it's fairly obvious, taking her arguments as a whole, that problematic depictions of women in our medium are very common in the biggest, highest selling titles.
Her arguments are her opinion and all those games have a right to exist. She's just arguing that not all games need to be this way and that it can hurt women if this is how they are represented in most mainstream video games.
In short, all anyone is asking for is a little more diversity.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Judging from the rest of your post, you seem to think "more female representation in video games" means something more sinister than just that.
FF Seraphim
Member
Well to be fair, there isn't a vast number of games with a strong leading female character. However, I will concede that people who get angry at games like GTA:V are missing the point of such games.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
It's hard to say it's unwarrented to be honest. I mean, what does that even mean? Is there some line that you have to cross before it's acceptable to look at the role of race/gender/etc in games?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Ok, so why is it unwarranted
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
I'm all for diversity. That's what I'm trying to say as well. I guess I just felt like some people in the industry/media have been to sensitive about females in gaming. But, again, that's just me. I will recognize that for some, the scrutiny is warranted.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Out of a genuine curiosity and desire to start a conversation, how are you arriving at the conclusion that the scrutiny is "unwarranted"? Do you feel that there are no issues with how women are represented in video games? Or do you feel that work from other mediums does not attract a similar level of scrutiny? Or is it something else?
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Some examples of "too sensitive" would be nice.
You can rest assured that anyone who uses the term "SJW" unironically is a knuckledragger.
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
Thanks for providing me choices. I do feel like work from other mediums does not attract a similar level of scrutiny. And that from a personal point of view, I feel like the portrayal of females in entertainment media/fiction doesn't affect me in a way that would offend me or make me act negatively towards females.
Great. So I think you have more in common with this scrutiny than maybe you think? By examining art critically, enthusiasts can learn more about themselves, their sub culture, and how it relates to society in general.
That's why film and literature is such a diverse medium. We have writers and filmmakers from so many walks of life making things for all sorts of people.
Game developers will make things that appeal to themselves and to their audience. With critiques like Anita's videos, there is a realization that the audiences of their titles aren't only interested in male power fantasies. So ideally, more diverse works will appear, which will broaden the audience further, causing more diversity in the development community, which then creates more diverse work... Etc.
So this scrutiny is a force for good, in the end. Games should be as diverse as books, film, and music. We'll always have violent titles with sexual content. But ideally the industry's most celebrated titles won't be 90% made up of those kinds of works.
Edit: grammar
And the term SJW sickens me.
Also, media does have an effect on people. It's not a black and white effect. I play all major aaa titles and I don't like guns, never fired one. I enjoyed gta5 immensely but I don't think the actions of the characters are acceptable. I've played and enjoyed Manhunt, even, but I don't consider myself to be a violent person. Perhaps it's the balance of consuming lots of different kinds of media... But it's definitely a thought provoking question, and depictions of all people in media should be examined critically, as it affects (and reflects) our society.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I think part of the reason games receive a lot of scrutiny now is for two reasons mainly; the relative youth of the medium and the relatively higher level of direct involvement of the person partaking.
There are often examples of portrayals in women that don't offend me personally, but I understand how they might offend others and can't deny trends in the portrayals themselves, as well as how they are often a part of lower-quality writing or storytelling.
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
InternetAristocrat's pre-GamerGate output consists almost entirely of angry videos attacking "SJWs." GamerGate isn't an outlier. GamerGate is at the dead center of his agenda.
Messofanego
Banned
Giant Bomb on the latest Bombcast mentions gamergate, never heard the staff other than Klepek or Navarro talk about it (2:04:28 - 2:10:00). They talk about the helplessness of it all but needing solidarity. And the rest:
"It's the sort of thing you look at and go like: this should have gone away now..."
"It's 2014, y'all. Don't you have a rep to grind?"
"The sick part is, that's what they're doing."
"Even if the part where you look at it as some kind of coalition of people that care about ethics in game journalism, which is largely farcical; even if you look at it that way, how does that justify what's really happening out there?"
"It doesn't. I figured it out!"
"Congratulations, you completed the [Destiny] Raid!"
"It's the sort of thing you look at and go like: this should have gone away now..."
"It's 2014, y'all. Don't you have a rep to grind?"
"The sick part is, that's what they're doing."
"Even if the part where you look at it as some kind of coalition of people that care about ethics in game journalism, which is largely farcical; even if you look at it that way, how does that justify what's really happening out there?"
"It doesn't. I figured it out!"
"Congratulations, you completed the [Destiny] Raid!"
Paracelsus
Member
Ideally, if not just a pipe dream. Gaming is a business shaped in a way you cannot afford a bomba on large scale, it might cost your whole company or mess up its entire direction. Taking risks is not something they are willing to take regardless of the gender and the age of the characters involved in the project, it has less to do with the ideas poured inside the game and more about the audience making for most of the userbase. Let alone the fact that the more people you add to an userbase, the higher chances are they are casual gamers that buy the latest fad and don't take their time to explore more elaborated titles. Scrutiny happens with movies but their industry works differently, maybe it'd be time to bring gaming budgets to ground zero, work their way back up all while adding more progressive ideas to the dance.
GiantBomb has been on the gamergate blacklist for awhile now, even before that podcast. Same with Idle Thumbs and Gamers With Jobs. Probably all the podcasts I listen to.
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