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[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Every post I see lamenting the futility of fighting gg reads to me like

"I don't really give a shit what happens to other people as long as the games I want to play get made"

 

[Galactic Fork]

Every post I see lamenting the futility of fighting gg reads to me like

"I don't really give a shit what happens to other people as long as the games I want to play get made"

That's about how posts about keeping politics out of games reads to me.

 

[Jim Sterling]

But Jim, why don't you understand our GRAVE ETHICAL CONCERNS with positive reviews of Gone Home?

You're all about sticking up for the consumer so HOW DARE YOU NOT CALL OUT A WOMAN FOR HAVING SEX with a MAN who WRITES WORDS on an INTERNET BASED gaming publication.

Can you not hear my frothing outrage?

I can't hear you over the sound of my picking on Easy Targets like EA, Ubisoft, and my own employers as opposed to say, the tough and scary targets like obscure freelance writers and indie devs with no industry power.

 

[Mesoian]

Engaged with a gamergater on twitter yesterday.

Apparently, according to this guy, wanting to "destroy feminists" is not being anti-women. Because feminism is about equality for both sexes.

I... what?

So THATS what the Hatred trailer is about!

 

[sasliquid]

I can't hear you over the sound of my picking on Easy Targets like EA, Ubisoft, and my own employers as opposed to say, the tough and scary targets like obscure freelance writers and indie devs with no industry power.

Had a genuine discussion with someone who thought freelance writers and small scale devs were stopping discussion in some sort of conspiracy. He is doing a PhD at a world class university, just showing intelligence =/= common sense

 

[crowphoenix]

I've spent this week trying to figure this GamerGate thing out, and now that I have something resembling a picture, I am angry. I am beyond angry. I am baffled, and saddened, and ashamed for these people that believe spreading hate is somehow right.

I wish I could do something besides posting things on-line that Speak against GamerGate.

 

[zeldablue]

Morning Jim. A GG advocate told me yesterday that the reason they don't trust you is because you used to make sexist jokes, and now repent. Apparently that was a 'flip flop' meaning that they don't have to listen to any points you make ever again, because how can they trust that any of them are what you really believe.

...:\

I make sexist jokes about women all the time. But jokes are suppose to be jokes. Not actual bigoted beliefs about what women are and can't be. How am I just now realizing how far gone these people are. :C

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Meh:
- it's rather clear that GAF isn't exactly representative of GG. Is there anyone in this thread that considers themselves a 'GG member' or have anything to do with it?
- the horrendous campaign against women on banknotes didn't exactly come from the UK banknote collecting society. I somehow doubt a note in the newsletter was going to change the thugs who were doing it.
- as people are seeing, a large number of 'new-GG' seem to have nothing to do with gaming, they just see a good way to get publicity and ride a bandwagon.

1. "GG" is a conspiratorial movement that claims to be about gaming & journalism. GAF has a history of caring deeply about both.

"having to do with" is easily and undeniably a fit description based on that fact.

2. I don't see how this is relevant, it's a well known fact that a lot of gamers are responsible for the toxic behavior within gaming. Your comparison seems intentionally naive.

3. A lot of GG proponents and media figures aren't gamers, this is correct. But it seems like you're implying GG itself isn't fueled largely by gamers on a more base level.

Are you implying GG is largely a movement composed of people who don't see themselves as gamers?

...:\

I make sexist jokes about women all the time. But jokes are suppose to be jokes. Not actual bigoted beliefs about what women are and can't be. How am I just now realizing how far gone these people are. :C

I don't necessarily agree with "jokes are just jokes", but I'd like to point out GGers only make points like this because they think the best way to fight "SJ/Feminists" is to use their own tactics against them.

Ironically non-SJ minded people trying to sound SJ completely and utterly misses the point, so they just sound like asshats.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

...:\

I make sexist jokes about women all the time. But jokes are suppose to be jokes. Not actual bigoted beliefs about what women are and can't be. How am I just now realizing how far gone these people are. :C

You'd be surprised at how many people are against sexist jokes, and will accuse you of being sexist.

Just the other day there was a whole thread at people misinterpreting a Sarah Silverman skit about the paywage gap being anti-trans/making light of trans people.

No more joking

 

[Moral Panic]

Just because something is a "joke" doesn't mean anything, place, time and occasion (aka context) really matter.

 

[Slayven]

Most of the Giant Bomb guys have been on the shit list of GG for a while now actually, given comments they've made now and then.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeffgerstmann/status/505106389753024513

There's also a fair amount of inherent irony in accusing Jeff Gerstmann of media corruption and dishonesty I feel.

I am still trying to figure out how "Social Justice Warrior" is an insult.

 

[Atrophis]

I can't hear you over the sound of my picking on Easy Targets like EA, Ubisoft, and my own employers as opposed to say, the tough and scary targets like obscure freelance writers and indie devs with no industry power.

Be right back, just knocking up a quick jpeg covered in red lines proving another piece of the SJ conspiracy.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Because not liking a joke and/or finding it problematic automatically means you're misrepresenting it.

I am still trying to figure out how "Social Justice Warrior" is an insult.

Because fighting strongly for your beliefs is bad and worthy of ridicule.

Clearly GG fails to see the irony.

 

[Galactic Fork]

...:\

I make sexist jokes about women all the time. But jokes are suppose to be jokes. Not actual bigoted beliefs about what women are and can't be. How am I just now realizing how far gone these people are. :C

This is way too broad of a statement. Jokes aren't always jokes, and the "it was just a joke" excuse is used way too often.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I mean, the bolded just isn't true. There are entire college programs dedicated to the critique of film and literature from whatever feminist, marxist, capitalist bent that you'd care to name. The reason why you maybe perceive less of it is because its more well established.

The social scrutiny gaming has now is just representative of how ubiquitous and recognized gaming is now. It's not longer a club for teenage boys in the minds of the world, which in reality it hasn't been for probably at least 2 decades. For some reason that bothers certain people who wish it still was, in spite of the fact that they have been benefiting for years in every way imaginable from this industry now being a peer to the film industry in terms of revenue and acceptance. They want their cake and to eat it too, to pretend that inclusiveness and diversity aren't demonstrably positive factors in the growth of any human enterprise.

 

[dumbo]

Actually this kind of thinking is part of the problem. People have to clean their own houses. If you let your house fall to shit because so many other houses look like crap, then your house still looks like shit. Harassment happens where harassment is tolerated. And part of tolerating it is accepting that "it'll just happen anywhere, no matter the reason." That normalizes it. Saying I shouldn't have to clean my house because nobody else will clean their house is self defeating.

But Twitter isn't "your house". It's a communal area, run by a corporation. You don't have permission to clean it.

And if someone posts harassment/rape/death-threats on twitter, then *I* don't care whether the hashtag says 'GAMERGATE' or 'MYLITTLEPONY'.

Imagine we outlaw '#GAMERGATE' and '#GAMERGATE2' appears - what would have been solved exactly?

 

[The Blackrose]

Had a genuine discussion with someone who thought freelance writers and small scale devs were stopping discussion in some sort of conspiracy. He is doing a PhD at a world class university, just showing intelligence =/= common sense

Just because he rolled a high INT doesn't mean he rolled a high WIS too.

I am still trying to figure out how "Social Justice Warrior" is an insult.

You and god knows how many baffled people.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Imagine we outlaw '#GAMERGATE' and '#GAMERGATE2' appears - what would have been solved exactly?

Who is talking about outlawing anything?

 

[Galactic Fork]

But Twitter isn't "your house". It's a communal area, run by a corporation. You don't have permission to clean it.

And if someone posts harassment/rape/death-threats on twitter, then *I* don't care whether the hashtag says 'GAMERGATE' or 'MYLITTLEPONY'.

Imagine we outlaw '#GAMERGATE' and '#GAMERGATE2' appears - what would have been solved exactly?

You act like these are only happening "on twitter" and that just because it's on twitter it has nothing to do with gaming.
And I'm not talking about outlawing anything.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

But I know a lot of women who are outright hostile towards feminism as it exists today, some of them in my immediate family. Individuals who have successful business careers or are house wives like my mother in law.

Just calling this to your attention. I don't necessarily agree with all of it but there's an idea that women who have achieved success in their industry feel compelled to be more critical of other women.

 

[sasliquid]

Just because he rolled a high INT doesn't mean he rolled a high WIS

He hasn't got good enough perception or insight to see the situation for what it is

 

[crowphoenix]

But Twitter isn't "your house". It's a communal area, run by a corporation. You don't have permission to clean it.

And if someone posts harassment/rape/death-threats on twitter, then *I* don't care whether the hashtag says 'GAMERGATE' or 'MYLITTLEPONY'.

Imagine we outlaw '#GAMERGATE' and '#GAMERGATE2' appears - what would have been solved exactly?

So you don't speak out against it because it is difficult?

 

[Mesoian]

Most of the Giant Bomb guys have been on the shit list of GG for a while now actually, given comments they've made now and then.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeffgerstmann/status/505106389753024513

There's also a fair amount of inherent irony in accusing Jeff Gerstmann of media corruption and dishonesty I feel.

Which is just...amazing to me. It's like they've completely forgotten about how Giant Bomb came to exist in the first place.

Leigh Alexander doesn't work at Gamasutra, she's a freelancer, what is this list, how are people this stupid?

 

[jstripes]

But Jim, why don't you understand our GRAVE ETHICAL CONCERNS with positive reviews of Gone Home?

I love how "gamers" get upset when journalists call Gone Home a "game", they don't define it as such, but they also get upset when someone tries to define them.

Spoiler

Gone Home was great. There used to be all kinds of games like that in the old, pre-action days of the PC.

Leigh Alexander doesn't work at Gamasutra, she's a freelancer, what is this list, how are people this stupid?

I've seen some GGers who think she's Editor in Chief of Gamasutra.

 

[Galactic Fork]

Which is just...amazing to me. It's like they've completely forgotten about how Giant Bomb came to exist in the first place.

Leigh Alexander doesn't work at Gamasutra, she's a freelancer, what is this list, how are people this stupid?

Fact checking is stuff that journalists do, and journalists are corrupt. Soooo.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Fact checking is stuff that journalists do, and journalists are corrupt. Soooo.

This would explain so much about GG.

 

[endless dave]

He's been called out already. Interesting to see if he accepts.

I think Sam Biddle can be a prick (he's most notably a "chaotic good" muck raker for the tech industry) but good lord, the Gamersgate side takes this shit SO SERIOUSLY. I thought the stuff he was saying was hilarious. Sam Read as well. any attempt to poke fun at them (like they deserve) gets used a fucking bullet point on their "we're harassed too and you know, we're harassed MORE so let's talk about that instead" shell game. It's all about scoring points and winning arguments and never admitting defeat. Like whenever they find a doxxer or call out "harassment" you're going to find so many people just celebrating that they can put this one on the scorecard for their side and how it's more proof they're better than anti-GG and not the inherent good nature of their deeds

 

[crowphoenix]

This would explain so much about GG.

Well, not fact checking really helps spread misinformation.

 

[Atrophis]

Spoiler

Gone Home was great. There used to be all kinds of games like that in the old, pre-action days of the PC.

Where's the gameplay they cry. It's like they have no idea for many years games consisted of nothing but text (and still do <3 IF).

 

[endless dave]

Most of the Giant Bomb guys have been on the shit list of GG for a while now actually, given comments they've made now and then.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeffgerstmann/status/505106389753024513

There's also a fair amount of inherent irony in accusing Jeff Gerstmann of media corruption and dishonesty I feel.

I like how even their most hated list is still mostly white men

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Well, not fact checking really helps spread misinformation.

So many posts have had "I heard" "reportedly" "allegedly" and other too lazy to check phrases

 

[Galactic Fork]

Where's the gameplay they cry. It's like they have no idea for many years games consisted of nothing but text (and still do <3 IF).

I still pop on to the occasional MUD. My favorite went down a few years ago. I still miss it so much.

 

[Mesoian]

I still pop on to the occasional MUD. My favorite went down a few years ago. I still miss it so much.

Yeah...

Man, that was a big part of my childhood.

We should start a movement. MUDs, not Harassment.

 

[RM8]

Cool to see my faves Jonathan Holmes and Jim Sterling on the list

 

[endless dave]

More on Biddle- the complete lack of humor and levity in this entire this is what is getting me now. it's a culture war and no one wants to take a step back and go "ok everyone, let's just remember this is ostensibly video games and video games journalism we're talking about." which is not to say anti-GG (which I firmly put myself into) shouldn't call out the constant awful stuff GG-aligned people are doing, but can we please not stridently hold this terribly dry and flat Less Wrong stance on the whole thing. Can we not mock their ridiculous, bullshit beliefs even a little?

 

[zeldablue]

This is way too broad of a statement. Jokes aren't always jokes, and the "it was just a joke" excuse is used way too often.

Yeah, we've talked about this before. About irony and satire etc. Most "jokes" reflect intrinsic belief's that people actually have...which stinks.

I'm fine with the realization I am sexist and racist towards myself at times. o____e

There was a study about gendered jokes. 50 years ago men laughed at jokes that made fun of women but were personally offended by jokes against men. Women also laughed at jokes that made fun of women and were offended on behalf of men when there were jokes against men. Men and women were equally loving of offensive female jokes and both equally appalled by jokes critical of men.

In the modern day, men laughed at jokes that made fun of women but were STILL personally offended by jokes against men. Women have now switched to laughing at jokes about men but are now personally offended by jokes against women.

Ehh...I just think everything is funny.

 

[danm999]

I like how even their most hated list is still mostly white men

Yeah it's kind of an amazing meta point that proves criticism about lack of representation valid.

 

[Mael]

I still pop on to the occasional MUD. My favorite went down a few years ago. I still miss it so much.

If MUDs are not games then games can go fuck themselves!

 

[plagiarize]

Wait when was Joss a woman hater this is from his wiki page



Maybe he hated women when he was in kindergarten, he is probably the highest profile male feminist in hollywood over the last 20 years.

I didn't ask, so I don't know. Here's the exchange though:

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

Give me an example of the supposed corruption that's being fought, because all I've seen GG do is spew anti-feminist rhetoric and try to go after sites and individuals for being "SJW."

It started as a sexist harassment campaign and it still is one. All they've done is recruit a bunch of suckers by telling them it was about something else.

I spoke with some GamerGate people yesterday. They didn't deny that the movement was started by anti feminists, and while they claimed not to be anti feminists themselves, the two people I spoke to also said that they had no issues at all with the anti feminists within the movement.

If someone who cares about corruption in game journalism wants to use a hash tag, I think they'd spend more time talking about the issues they really care about if they didn't use the hash tag of a group that was started by anti feminists and that openly welcomes anti feminists.

But all the people I spoke to yesterday clearly felt more strongly about people inserting their 'agenda' into gaming than they felt about corruption in the press, so I'm not sure how many of these 'genuine' people are left, if there were many in the first place.

I don't think I'd call them a "bad person" but I definitely think they need to stop for a second and look both at the company they're keeping and, crucially, how both the majority of effort and the majority of sucess has been towards misogynistic aims. If you honestly care about ethics, GamerGate is not for you. As the documentation of its inception shows, it certainly wasn't the focus of its founders

GG's method of "fighting corruption" is inherently conspiratorial and counter productive.

Thanks to GG it's been impossible to have a proper journalism thread on neogaf like we've had for ages.

Outspoken media watchdogs like Jim Sterling (and someone related to the doritosgate incident, lost the name) are against GG exactly for this reason.

--

Spreading conspiratorial misinformation that leads to a significant increase in harassment and tension is not a good thing, so should not be represented as simply "fighting corruption".

1. Are they bad people? No. Just misguided. I was one of them. They need to wake up to the reality of the situation however and understand what's going on though.

2. Will it stop the people who are trying to actively hurt people? No. Will it make things a LOT more difficult for them? Yes. People who are standing up against #GamerGate are being painted as targets. If you enter the tag and don't agree, a few gamergaters will appear to "educate" you on the subject. If you still don't agree, more show up. They start dogpiling on you.

Additionally, your tweets might be screencapped (with your name and twitter handle in full view) and then shared around, so that everyone in the "gamergate" network will eventually see it due to the fact that they're all following eachother, so even more people will hop in to "educate" you. Some people might not take so kindly to what you have to say.

If you're a more prominent figure and you're outspoken against #GamerGate, you better believe you'll be screencapped and you'll have a lot more than "education" waiting for you. If we remove the people who support #GamerGate, though? We remove that network of easily painted targets from the real misogynists.

If all of the people who genuinely care about ethics and journalism are gone, all of the "good people" have left, they'll no longer have the mask of "good apples" to hide behind, and all that's left will be the true core of the tag, and the driving force that's been behind it the entire time.

I think at this point #gamergate actually impedes anyone who actually wants to discuss games journalism issues since the focus of anymore of anyone who posts in that hash tag either talks about evil feminazis trying to ruin their games or some vague phrasing of ethics in games journalism but never actual issues that they have a problem with. So I feel the people actually care about it should start a new tag so that they can talk about it because there's literally no substantive dialog going on in that tag in regards games journalism and ethics.

For being out of nothing besides curiousity, your questions are surprisingly (?) loaded.

1. Which corruption? How are they fighting it? And yeah, GG started as harassment campaign. It is not just coincidentally a few people.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/gamergate-is-an-attack-on-ethical-journalism/

This is a pretty good argument that gamer gate may say it is about ethics in journalism, but their actions are the exact OPPOSITE of that. Which means, in the end, gamer gate is really just about hate.

Thank you very much, that was insightful.

 

[endless dave]

Which is just...amazing to me. It's like they've completely forgotten about how Giant Bomb came to exist in the first place.

Leigh Alexander doesn't work at Gamasutra, she's a freelancer, what is this list, how are people this stupid?

I don't think these people would even get what a freelancer is. There's been constantly proof that they don't know how the world works, especially workplaces and certainly journalistic workplaces

 

[Mael]

I don't think these people would even get what a freelancer is. There's been constantly proof that they don't know how the world works, especially workplaces and certainly journalistic workplaces

Looking at their constant use of "corruption", "nepotism", etc,
I'd say that they also don't know how words works too.

 

[Substrata]

Because fighting strongly for your beliefs is bad and worthy of ridicule.

Surely fighting for some beliefs should not be praised? Not every cause is good.

I'm not saying I'm against proponents for social justice here, I'm just looking at the big picture as there are an awful lot of belief systems out there. I think saying "fighting for your beliefs is always good" (which is what I think you are trying to say here) is not a sound statement.

 

[Atrophis]

Looking at their constant use of "corruption", "nepotism", etc,
I'd say that they also don't know how words works too.

Why waste time with figuring out words when they can just copy what they heard in a youtube video? Those youtubers always tell the truth so it must be right.

 

[TouchMyBox]

I am still trying to figure out how "Social Justice Warrior" is an insult.

I thought SJW was supposed to mean "people who are fighting for social issues that don't concern them" (as if harassment/marginalizing of 51% of the world's population doesn't affect the other 49% in some capacity). So how is it that female journalists are SJWs?

 

[MrHoot]

More on Biddle- the complete lack of humor and levity in this entire this is what is getting me now. it's a culture war and no one wants to take a step back and go "ok everyone, let's just remember this is ostensibly video games and video games journalism we're talking about." which is not to say anti-GG (which I firmly put myself into) shouldn't call out the constant awful stuff GG-aligned people are doing, but can we please not stridently hold this terribly dry and flat Less Wrong stance on the whole thing. Can we not mock their ridiculous, bullshit beliefs even a little?

Oh fucking please, really

Biddle comment wasn't funny to many. There was no joke in there, plus during bullying prevention month most of all, yeah let's all encourage or excuse such shitty behaviour from people who are supposed to be paid to be professionals. Doesn't freaking matter if it's "just video games".

I haven't even used the gamergate hastag once as I feel a lot of the arguments are flawed and I hate twitter for a start, but this kind of shit right there is why you'll have people keep using. You might think they're wrong, but they genuinely feel belittled by their own media because of stuff like this. If you want gamergate to actually stop, start first by not putting blinders and going "it's just a joke" when someone who happens to be anti-gg does it.

Gamergate isn't a group or a thing. There is plenty of reason to disagree with it but you have to realise that at this point, it's a hodge podge of people of plenty of different backgrounds. Some have spiteful point of views, but a lot of them do not and when they see stuff like that, you just cement the idea that gawker media and game journos are a hypocritical bunch who feel belittlement is fine as long as it's aimed towards the opposition. You might not think it's true. I do not necessarily think it's true. But we already saw what trying to mortar shoot the hashtag does, it will just reinforce people in their idea.

First thing people need to do is to stop and come together and actually talk, and if they don't have anything nice to say then they should abstain

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Surely fighting for some beliefs should not be praised? Not every cause is good.

I'm not saying I'm against proponents for social justice here, I'm just looking at the big picture as there are an awful lot of belief systems out there. I think saying "fighting for your beliefs is always good" (which is what I think you are trying to say here) is not a sound statement.

My reply wasn't a joke, that is quite literally why "warrior" is meant to be insulting, because it implies they're "too strong/strident" about their goals.

I called it "ironic" because GG and a lot of anti-SJ people are incredibly aggressive in their approach and essentially doing the same "warrior" thing for another cause.

I don't see how anything I said even comes close to implying what you think I said.

I thought SJW was supposed to mean "people who are fighting for social issues that don't concern them" (as if harassment/marginalizing of 51% of the world's population doesn't affect the other 49% in some capacity). So how is it that female journalists are SJWs?

"SJW" as a term has been muddled since it's conception around 2009. Generally people have agreed "SJW"s are bad, but it's about as productive as saying "idiots are bad" because it's just a general negative term that has completely different definitions depending on who's using it.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I don't think these people would even get what a freelancer is. There's been constantly proof that they don't know how the world works, especially workplaces and certainly journalistic workplaces

Because the majority of GGers appear to be teenage boys with a lot of anger and misunderstanding of how the world works, led by manchildren like Adam Baldwin and Milo

 

[Substrata]

I called it "ironic" because GG and a lot of anti-SJ people are incredibly aggressive in their approach and essentially doing the same "warrior" thing for another cause.

I don't see how anything I said even comes close to implying what you think I said.

I understand what you are trying to say now, but it wasn't clear to me on first reading. Nevermind.

 

[plagiarize]

I thought SJW was supposed to mean "people who are fighting for social issues that don't concern them" (as if harassment/marginalizing of 51% of the world's population doesn't affect the other 49% in some capacity). So how is it that female journalists are SJWs?

from what I have gained from my discussions yesterday, they think the so called 'social justice warriors' have a feminist agenda that they are trying to forcefully insert into gaming. That's what I heard from the people talking to me, and it's right in what they seem to be using as their public manifesto too.

http://www.historyofgamergate.com/

You will see people claim it is anti-woman. But, as this article will show, that is simply not the case. Simply put, gamers do not like the hyper-politicization of their pastime, regardless of it's source. And gamers will reject anyone who tries to come into our medium so they can pedal an agenda.

Female journalists, they see as pushing a *feminist* agenda, and they don't think being against feminism is the same as being a misogynist or anti women, in part because they see the word feminism and seem to think that it means something completely different to 'wanting equal rights and representation for women'.

If you are pro feminism, you are a SJW engaged in a war against the culture of games.

*That* seems to be how they see things when you can get them to talk a bit more transparently, but they can't take a look at it from the outside and understand why their cause which is against agenda's in gaming and which has targeted people for being pro feminism as a result, is seen as being anti women or anti feminist.