Support NeoGAF

[Thomasorus]

Ken and the dog aren't busted, but they are extremely silly. Remember it's Persona, where if Ken does a bad DP or manages to lose neutral he died.

Also I-No isn't nerfed, in Ogawa's last list he had her just under S tier, and she's sommonly seen around A. They just made her barrier to entry a lot lower while still keeping her character intact, which is not a bad thing. She's still not easy to play, the real difficulty in I-No was actually not the execution, people can execute.It was the execution on top of not being able to run and having jank ass buttons to work with.

I still remember than 6P that was killed by Slayer j.HS all the time. :manlytears:

Not entirely sure. From what I know YRC gives her more ins, and it makes her pressure/mix up better and harder to deal with. Prolly stuff like along with other char/game changes bumped her up. She started in "meh" territory and hung around B tier for awhile, but she's considered a bit better from what I've seen lately.

Well like many characters she has new combos using IAD so you can do a combo from midscreen to corner more easily. One of her dive goes to wallstick or slide if I remember correctly so you can combo without meter and do a good chunk of damage. It was possible in old games too but not as damaging as chemi FRC combos.

It means she can YRC often just for the slow or cancel of note more often and it gives her more momentum. In most versions I-no was a kind of Millia (I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO GARD) that needed momentum to start the engine. And the way of starting this was mostly the note used as a pressing/zoning tool since a single stand P could stop her if she went alone. In AC they give her a second note so you could vary the rythm and in AC+ she had the forcebreak notes that covered more screen.

Now what I undestand about all this is that she has basically the same options as before (stroke the big tree cancel/throw, high/low/throw/dust mixup covered with note and many other things) except she can create a momentum with YRC since it slow the opponent.

Also remember I-no in Slash :'D : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zRxruGr8-o

 

[Zissou]

hm, now I have a month to make a choice. Zato or Ramlethal

And whats this about reload on steam having online?

Only interested in characters who are near impossible to control?

 

[BakedYams]

This is what the Bowsercide nerf has resulted in:
http://fat.gfycat.com/RectangularFlusteredHummingbird.webm

Move is now shit.

wow, a nerf like that wasn't even necessary...

Gotta win that lunch money for next week

dat tag....

 

[Anne]

Nah, about YRC I meant it had to do with VCL YRC and the other new options. Mynus put this on DL awhile ago

"As for Ogawa's assessment, as GreatFernman said he is referring to fuzzy defensive options: fuzzy jump/throw/guard getting shut-down by VCL YRC. You have to block/guess honestly against I-no because of this option and reversal attempts are out of the question, so she forces you to have to respect on wakeup everytime. BS'ing VLC is also impossible since it is projectile-type. He goes on to say that her air-to-air game is superb now that she can force KD anywhere on screen with HCL followup > oki, which lends its hand/complements her already stellar setplay game off of multiple situations. There is no character bias here, this is an actual objective assessment."

Not "oh they're slowed" more like "oh they actually have to eat all of it" What I get is more KD opportunities plus the opponent having to eat more mix up.

 

[CountBlack]

invincible bowser spawns from just dying, he's up 2-1 in stocks.


grabs you by the ledge while still invincible, bowserside, wins



much fair

 

[Zissou]

What is VCL?

edit: and what are fuzzy jump/throw/guard?

 

[Karsticles]

invincible bowser spawns from just dying, he's up 2-1 in stocks.


grabs you by the ledge while still invincible, bowserside, wins



much fair

Why are you standing next to the ledge at this point, doing nothing?

 

[Thomasorus]

Nah, about YRC I meant it had to do with VCL YRC and the other new options. Mynus put this on DL awhile ago

"As for Ogawa's assessment, as GreatFernman said he is referring to fuzzy defensive options: fuzzy jump/throw/guard getting shut-down by VCL YRC. You have to block/guess honestly against I-no because of this option and reversal attempts are out of the question, so she forces you to have to respect on wakeup everytime. BS'ing VLC is also impossible since it is projectile-type. He goes on to say that her air-to-air game is superb now that she can force KD anywhere on screen with HCL followup > oki, which lends its hand/complements her already stellar setplay game off of multiple situations. There is no character bias here, this is an actual objective assessment."

Not "oh they're slowed" more like "oh they actually have to eat all of it" What I get is more KD opportunities plus the opponent having to eat more mix up.

Wow that's impressive. So it's almost the same as the old IAD VCL FRC on wakeup from the old games where I-no fell on the ground doing the VCL instead of having the normal momentum? Except you get a knockdown more often due to the HCL > VCL combo and you can do it all the time now? It that's the thing, just wow. O_O


Edit :

What is VCL?

edit: and what are fuzzy jump/throw/guard?

Vertical Chemical Love. HCL is Horizontal Chemical Love. It's I-no signature move where she makes a sound wave/projectile by... doing the splits upside down in the air. x)
Fuzzy Guard is a "bug/feature" you find in many games. It's the fact of making someone stand block a move coming from the air at the end of a jump. Right after if you rejump and do another air move, the character that block will take it if he crouched and even his hitbox is normally not supposed to be hit by this move because it's too low. It happens because the hitbox during the second move is not the crouch block one but still the stand block one, even if the game acknowledge you changed your status from standing to crouching. The "mixup" goes so fast that the hitbox doesn't have the time to change so you're actually having a standing hitbox while crouching.

 

[CountBlack]

Why are you standing next to the ledge at this point, doing nothing?

Just saying.. instant kills like that were dumb.

 

[Curry-Hakase]

What is VCL?

edit: and what are fuzzy jump/throw/guard?

VCL = Vertical Chemical Love

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/inde...ome/ggxxacr-fuzzy-throwjump-defensive-os-r454

I can't open up the link atm to verify but i think it's the right one.

 

[Zissou]

VCL = Vertical Chemical Love

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/inde...ome/ggxxacr-fuzzy-throwjump-defensive-os-r454

I can't open up the link atm to verify but i think it's the right one.

Ahh- thanks! Half of learning a new game is learning terminology/abbreviations, haha.

 

[Karsticles]

Just saying.. instant kills like that were dumb.

I totally agree with you. That's why it would make more sense if either:
1) Bowser and the player always control the grab 50/50, so it can never result in an SD if the opponent holds away from the edge.

2) Not allow movement at all - just have it slam in place - who cares?

I can tell you now that the vast majority of Bowser players out there would be perfectly fine with this kind of compromise. What Sakurai has done is allowed Bowser's opponent to KO him using his own move while surviving, which is blatantly ridiculous.

 

[Anne]

If you guys ever need more advanced GG stuff, hit me up. I'm not an OG GG player or a very dedicated one(Xrd being my first serious attempt orz), but I work around and know enough guys I can probably grab information from them.

Vertical Chemical Love. HCL is Horizontal Chemical Love. It's I-no signature move where she makes a sound wave/projectile by... doing the splits upside down in the air. x)
Fuzzy Guard is a "bug/feature" you find in many games. It's the fact of making someone stand block a move coming from the air at the end of a jump. Right after if you rejump and do another air move, the character that block will take it if he crouched and even his hitbox is normally not supposed to be hit by this move because it's too low. It happens because the hitbox during the second move is not the crouch block one but still the stand block one, even if the game acknowledge you changed your status from standing to crouching. The "mixup" goes so fast that the hitbox doesn't have the time to change so you're actually having a standing hitbox while crouching.

In this case we're using "fuzzy" in the older Japanese sense, as a defensive trick, rather than the English terminology of the high/low mix up. Since defensive fuzzy jump OS has recently become increasingly prominent in ASW games, you see some people go "wow we really messed up these naming conventions."

 

[Papstr]

I totally agree with you. That's why it would make more sense if either:
1) Bowser and the player always control the grab 50/50, so it can never result in an SD if the opponent holds away from the edge.

2) Not allow movement at all - just have it slam in place - who cares?

I can tell you now that the vast majority of Bowser players out there would be perfectly fine with this kind of compromise. What Sakurai has done is allowed Bowser's opponent to KO him using his own move while surviving, which is blatantly ridiculous.

Yeah, that's the issue for me. Granted my interest in Bowser began with the idea of Bowsercide trolling, but I stayed for everything else about him. Heck, I use his custom side B 2 just because it lets him basically airdash with no landing recovery. It's strictly become a movement tool for me, but I still like the idea of being able to use it as a punish/mixup occasionally that can be extremely rewarding depending on positioning.

Now that it's been changed, it's become a mixup that punishes myself and rewards the opponent for me making a correct read. Which is just stupid. I'd rather it kill us both than have it kill me and let the opponent recover. Or as you said, just make it slam in place. Then it still retains the use of it being a command grab without me being at risk for successfully grabbing you.

 

[Thomasorus]

If you guys ever need more advanced GG stuff, hit me up. I'm not an OG GG player or a very dedicated one(Xrd being my first serious attempt orz), but I work around and know enough guys I can probably grab information from them.

Same here. I stopped competition in Guilty Gear around 2009 but I still have a lot of memories about the game. It's pleasant to share things about a game you played for years. <3

Edit : what is the older japanese sense for fuzzyguard as a defensive trick Annel? I didn't played too much BB and P4A so I don't see what you meant.

 

[Karsticles]

Yeah, that's the issue for me. Granted my interest in Bowser began with the idea of Bowsercide trolling, but I stayed for everything else about him. Heck, I use his custom side B 2 just because it lets him basically airdash with no landing recovery. It's strictly become a movement tool for me, but I still like the idea of being able to use it as a punish/mixup occasionally that can be extremely rewarding depending on positioning.

Now that it's been changed, it's become a mixup that punishes myself and rewards the opponent for me making a correct read. Which is just stupid. I'd rather it kill us both than have it kill me and let the opponent recover. Or as you said, just make it slam in place. Then it still retains the use of it being a command grab without me being at risk for successfully grabbing you.

Switch to Custom 3. It is now clearly superior.

 

[Kadey]

Damn. I knew I felt someone watching me.

 

[Professor Beef]

I miss Melee Bowser's claw.

 

[Papstr]

Switch to Custom 3. It is now clearly superior.

Yup. That's the plan now. I just gotta unlock it first. -.-

 

[Anne]

Same here. I stopped competition in Guilty Gear around 2009 but I still have a lot of memories about the game. It's pleasant to share things about a game you played for years. <3

Edit : what is the older japanese sense for fuzzyguard as a defensive trick Annel? I didn't played too much BB and P4A so I don't see what you meant.

I'm really struggling to put it into words lol it comes from I think VF and the older 3D games, where you can do a type of input to avoid high/low/throw situations, but you'd have to ask Oneida or one of them more. The JP have been using it recently in regards to the defensive OSes involving hiding multiple inputs behind blockstun/jump/etc.

That was terribly worded and I can't do better, sorry >_< I just know how to use the concept.

Also Papstr stop hiding in the boonies and playing party games.

 

[Thomasorus]

I'm really struggling to put it into words lol it comes from I think VF and the older 3D games, where you can do a type of input to avoid high/low/throw situations, but you'd have to ask Oneida or one of them more. The JP have been using it recently in regards to the defensive OSes involving hiding multiple inputs behind blockstun/jump/etc.

That was terribly worded and I can't do better, sorry >_< I just know how to use the concept.

Also Papstr stop hiding in the boonies and playing party games.

Ah yes like in VF5 where you evade the throw because you're crouching, but still can block a mid, a thing normally impossible since mids can't be blocked while crouching. So how does BB and Persona use it? Do you have an example?

 

[Anne]

Quoting LK from Dustloop:

In P4U, the original assumption was that you had to commit to a throw tech. The total time of a whiffed throw is long, and characters get rewarded highly for punishing these whiffs. However, there are defensive techniques you can use to mitigate the risk and change the interaction you're having with the attacking opponent. In the first place, if they don't understand your method of defense, you shouldn't be able to get opened up by your opponent. To illustrate this, I'll use a typical Narukami player with a basic understanding of the game.

After blocking Narukami 5A (-2), if they wish to create a throw mixup, they can do the following:

1) Dash throw
2) Dash 5A 2A 5A (continuing pressure)
3) Dash 214A (making the throw tech whiff)

You, the player, recognizing this situation, beginning from 1, would input 7C+D > 1 quickly so that:

1) Gets teched
2) Gets blocked
3) Gets air thrown

The logic behind the technique is as follows:

Narukami
1) Throws are generally 5F start up, with a 16F tech window - the game will essentially let you tech a throw for a period of 21F
2) The string described above - 5A > 2A > 5A works out as 5A (5F + 10F hitstop) > 2A (7F + 10F hitstop) > 5A (5F) if they do it as fast as possible)
3) 214A is 23F start up.

So, for the first 5 frames after exiting blockstun from 5A, you block, thus blocking the follow up pressure from Narukami (5A > 2A > 5A). From frame 6 to frame 21, you would jump > throw > return to 1 and block. During this time, you're in the 10F hitstop of 5A, which protects you from getting hit by the low, and you should be back to blocking low by the time he moves on to 2A.

Technically, it isn't just lows that beat this (really, doing lows alone won't win), but hitting someone out of jump start up, or their jump completely.

I use the sweep into the recording options because it shows that there's not a limit to the amount of times you can do it. The recording I use being:

1) Sweep > dash throw
2) Sweep > dash 5A > dash throw
3) Sweep > dash 5A 2AA
4) Sweep > dash 5A > A Lion

This set simulates two situations for throw in a short window of time, but fuzzy jump should beat all of them if done properly.

That's for P4U. In BB the OS is similar in the fact that you 1 > 7tech > 1, but you barrier tech, and since barrier can make jumping safer it's a stronger OS.

Edit: Videoooooo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBJufiJ1FI&list=UUAsbwTn8tHkg5rtcFpTMuMQ

 

[Zissou]

If you guys ever need more advanced GG stuff, hit me up. I'm not an OG GG player or a very dedicated one(Xrd being my first serious attempt orz), but I work around and know enough guys I can probably grab information from them.



In this case we're using "fuzzy" in the older Japanese sense, as a defensive trick, rather than the English terminology of the high/low mix up. Since defensive fuzzy jump OS has recently become increasingly prominent in ASW games, you see some people go "wow we really messed up these naming conventions."

Must appreciated! In a old series like GG (especially when Xrd is not 'new' in the sense that SFIII -> SF4 put everybody back to square one) there's lots of things vets will take for granted that newcomers just won't know about, and then you end with stuff that vets never really mention/explain because they don't know that people don't know what it is. That was the nice thing for me playing mvc3 starting with vanilla day 1- everybody was figuring stuff out together so it was much harder to miss "obvious" stuff.

 

[Rhapsody]

So what exactly did they make easier with Zato's execution

Like I said before, it's not really execution that they made easier [for newer players]. It's just that they gave him some buffs that help manage Eddie placement. Drills forming puddles where Eddie can be summoned and a faster shadow movement speed (iirc) is what makes it a bit easier.

YRCs are also indirectly a thing to help you out in various ways as well.

 

[Karsticles]

I miss Melee Bowser's claw.

Isn't it odd that it's not a custom?

 

[Zissou]

Quoting LK from Dustloop:



That's for P4U. In BB the OS is similar in the fact that you 1 > 7tech > 1, but you barrier tech, and since barrier can make jumping safer it's a stronger OS.

Edit: Videoooooo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBJufiJ1FI&list=UUAsbwTn8tHkg5rtcFpTMuMQ

Does the same concept apply to Xrd? If so, how?

 

[Thomasorus]

Quoting LK from Dustloop:



That's for P4U. In BB the OS is similar in the fact that you 1 > 7tech > 1, but you barrier tech, and since barrier can make jumping safer it's a stronger OS.

Edit: Videoooooo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBJufiJ1FI&list=UUAsbwTn8tHkg5rtcFpTMuMQ

Thanks Annel!
So that's basically what is known as a defensive OS like people do in SF4 when crouching+throw tech except it covers more things. I didn't know Arc games where going this way so heavily to be honest.

Also thanks for the video. Since P4U is coming next week in Europe I'll have to review it for a VG website and I didn't had enough time to focus on it since it was out. I need to get a fresh look on the game and understand what changed/remained from the previous Persona so I can review it correctly.

 

[Anne]

Does the same concept apply to Xrd? If so, how?

It was linked earlier on this page actually.

Edit: Mission mode in Xrd looks neat. The game makes the CPU put you in various situations and asks you to answer them or block the mix up.

 

[Papstr]

Also Papstr stop hiding in the boonies and playing party games.

Relax my friend. I still get a healthy dose of Guilty Gear when people gather.

 

[Anne]

Relax my friend. I still get a healthy dose of Guilty Gear when people gather.

I never get to see it though :< come to Nashville, all we play here is UNiEL. I couldn't go to GG tonight cause working on a school paper.

 

[Papstr]

I never get to see it though :< come to Nashville, all we play here is UNiEL. I couldn't go to GG tonight cause working on a school paper.

I'd love to, but the only people with a car around here are usually swamped with work on the weekdays.

 

[Anne]

I'd love to, but the only people with a car around here are usually swamped with work on the weekdays.

I'm gonna see about getting people together this weekend since I'll be free from the terror of school. It's been snowing, the lawn does not need to be mowed, we can make this happen.

OT: 12 minute long extended JP Xrd trailer showing off those modes and stuff http://item.rakuten.co.jp/wondergoo/c/0000000795/ dunno if posted, but you can see that mission mode and other stuff.

 

[Papstr]

It's been snowing, the lawn does not need to be mowed

Don't underestimate him.

Sounds like a cool plan though. Would be a nice send off before I head off to Colorado for a week, and given my work situation I'm probably available this weekend anyway.

 

[Dahbomb]

I have a question about viewing 60FPS videos on YT (with Google Chrome of course). I notice that in standard view I get 60FPS but when I go fullscreen it's not 60FPS anymore. Is this a bug or is this just how it works and you can only get 60FPS in the standard YT view?

 

[Zissou]

It was linked earlier on this page actually.

Edit: Mission mode in Xrd looks neat. The game makes the CPU put you in various situations and asks you to answer them or block the mix up.

Because the linked vid was referencing accent core, I wasn't sure if it was the same in Xrd- so I guess I can safely assume that it is?

 

[Kumubou]

What anime FG players refer to as "fuzzy guard" has driven me nuts for years... but we don't really have a specific term that's better. At one point I called them anti-fuzzies if anything, due to people usually transitioning from back to down-back automatically (as if a 3D fuzzy guard in reverse) to protect against both the overhead and the low, and how that getting blown up by these setups. However, that's not technically correct, as stuff like double overheads would do the same thing, but they don't need the inflated hit box properties. *shrug*

 

[RockTurtle]

I miss Melee Bowser's claw.

i miss melee bowser :C

his mannerisms, his movesets. it was all so animalistic and rough and visceral!. he gave off the feel of a turtle-dragon!

he's so cartoony now.

 

[smurfx]

I have a question about viewing 60FPS videos on YT (with Google Chrome of course). I notice that in standard view I get 60FPS but when I go fullscreen it's not 60FPS anymore. Is this a bug or is this just how it works and you can only get 60FPS in the standard YT view?

just tried a video and it stayed at 60fps when i switched to fullscreen.

 

[Rhapsody]

Lord Knight made a tier list of his current thoughts on the cast+console characters

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/p4u...-d2Low tier-x210-d3Bullshit-x30-d4Honest-x420

 

[CountBlack]

Markman PLS

 

[mbpm1]

Wow, BM for this dev.

 

[Rhapsody]

Markman PLS

lol Poor Markman. Didn't know the rules of Kamiya on who he blocks.

 

[Riposte]

Markman PLS

BTFO



https://twitter.com/jamessmk/status/534907301476712448

@PG_kamiya @MarkMan23 see now mark I hope he loses his job. He don't deserve to work in gaming biz.. Crappy developer anyway

 

[Dlent]

Lord Knight made a tier list of his current thoughts on the cast+console characters

http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/p4u...-d2Low tier-x210-d3Bullshit-x30-d4Honest-x420

Is there any kind of video proof of S. Teddie being off the charts bullshit?

 

[Anne]

Is there any kind of video proof of S. Teddie being off the charts bullshit?

You can't record nightmares.

(check LK's twitter, says S Teddie isn't rated on the chart, he's just there)

 

[MarkMan]

lol. It's okay. I'll remember that though next time his company asks for support. To be fair he probably shoots first and aims later.

 

[Azure J]

Markman PLS

Markman was too slow to react to Kamiya's "Wolverine walking you down at the ready screen" tactics.

 

[Papstr]

You can't record nightmares.

This made me laugh.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

lol. It's okay. I'll remember that though next time his company asks for support. To be fair he probably shoots first and aims later.

damn, Platinum Games has been marked(man) for death

 

[Busaiku]

Mr. Kamiya is the best.