Are certain (realistic) skin colors ever jarring for you in fantasy settings?
- Thread starter Spring-Loaded
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White characters are thrown in games all the time when they aren't needed but why are non-white characters the only ones who cause cries of "tokenism!"?
I've noticed a lot of people say that a property should focus on a minority character front and center, instead of including them into a known property. The issue I have with this is that the financial reality is such that the new dedicated property would likely suffer in comparison to a more well known property. Its about maximizing exposure. Normalizing non-white depictions. A good way of doing this is incorporating them into known properties. Its like when you make a well known comic book character or title suddenly black. Gives a world of exposure that a unique treatment may not. Similar reasoning for suddenly making certain characters female. This does drive awareness. Just look at the recent change for Thor.
staticneuron
Member
No not really. Obviously they might not be filled to the brim with different ethnicities but it is ridiculous to think that Victorian London was entirely devoid of any other ethnicity than white.
I think that would be interesting as well but also a touchy issue. I would understand why devs would avoid going that route. The downside to this is that there are a large population of people who seemingly think that certain countries in certain time periods were TOTALLY devoid of any other ethnicity, not because of any research they have done but simply because they assume that to be logical.
My problem with this...... Black is not a distinct ethnic makeup. It is a social construct used to describe a persons skin tone. Which in turn means you are implying that there is no such thing as a "black" Berber. In actuality before the large invasions of Persians, Greeks, Romans, Germanic tribes, Arabs, Turks and the French, most Berbers were considered Dark Skinned/Black, the ethnic makeup you see today in many parts of africa do not represent how the natives of the region would have looked almost 2000 years ago. The term Berber is actually encompasses many ethnicities and languages and is used to describe a large portion of north african groups.
It's all a matter of framing. If you're going to establish diversity in the main cast, it's going to feel out of place if there's no diversity anywhere else in the game. If there's one minority amongst an unbroken sea of whites, it helps along the reaction that they're out of place in that world. If you're running into minority supporting characters and NPCs fairly often, suddenly it's not so weird.
As an aside, why does this "non-white = black" sentiment seem to be the default for a lot of people in this topic? England had large Indian and Asian populations in this period, too. A character along the lines of Nemo from League of Extraordinary Gentlemen could work particularly well here, I think.
We've had white protagonists go to lands of brown people for years in games, yet you don't get the arguments on here about token white people sticking out and being distracting.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Hence why I said earlier
We were talking about race, but if we're bring sex into it, yes. I would hope they don't just gloss over the fact that a woman is in the group. That would be weird given the sexual prejudices of the era.
In fact, it would be neat if RAD explored (at least within the backdrop to their narrative) all three of the -isms of the day: sexism, racism and classism. As I said, it's alright if they don't, but given the world they've chosen for the game, I would feel like it would be a missed opportunity since we're not exactly drowning in Victorian games.
I would much rather see what you're talking about, someone being daring and taking a beloved character and switching up their ethnicity or gender. To me that takes guts and I respect that--I also like when directors piss off fan groups by reminding them that fans don't own characters. So A+ on that idea.
Can you give an example where it seems impractical or forced?
About The Order: 1886, the point looks stupid to me. We still know little about the story but it seems that The Order is linked to aristocracy. It's way easier, for that period, that 4 Knights of The Order are white. How is this a problem? Also, they've something like 100+ years, and even if I'm not an expert of the story of London I guess that if a black aristocrat (and soldier) was hard to find in 1800, in 1700 or before was even harder. And indeed, a quick research on the web reveals that black people were very few in that period (1800s), most descended from freed slaves and colonial subjects, not very different from any movie/tv show I've seen with the same location and period. Also, the game feautures class conflict, which we are against I suppose.
The lore of The Order: 1886 seems very loyal to the Victorian London we know. If you've followed RaD on Twitter with their pics or even the interviews, you'll see how much they care about details. What they did is leave the reality as we know it and adding this secret Order and beasts, with the steampunk touch. To me, this is how you create an interesting world.
Sure, they coul've changed more about the world, and save a lot of time and money looking for detailed historical data, but they choose to do so. Now, to complain about skin colors at this point sounds almost disrespectful and whining.
On a more generic note, I don't care about skin colors, I played as white, black, asian and so on, male and female, never had a problem with this. I played games where I killed white, black, asian, male and female and again, never had a problem. I'm that kind of person that believe the racism is a childish concept that should belong to the past but it's going to disappear only in the moment we stop to think about it. I still remember the case with Resident Evil 5, a white soldier killing black men.. well you don't say, it was located in Africa maybe? It's just so immature, when will we do a step forward?
The lore of The Order: 1886 seems very loyal to the Victorian London we know. If you've followed RaD on Twitter with their pics or even the interviews, you'll see how much they care about details. What they did is leave the reality as we know it and adding this secret Order and beasts, with the steampunk touch. To me, this is how you create an interesting world.
Sure, they coul've changed more about the world, and save a lot of time and money looking for detailed historical data, but they choose to do so. Now, to complain about skin colors at this point sounds almost disrespectful and whining.
On a more generic note, I don't care about skin colors, I played as white, black, asian and so on, male and female, never had a problem with this. I played games where I killed white, black, asian, male and female and again, never had a problem. I'm that kind of person that believe the racism is a childish concept that should belong to the past but it's going to disappear only in the moment we stop to think about it. I still remember the case with Resident Evil 5, a white soldier killing black men.. well you don't say, it was located in Africa maybe? It's just so immature, when will we do a step forward?
No, I can't because I have no idea what you mean by forced or impractical when you suggest that a non-white character in a game would be feel forced.
Anyway, in the post I was responding to, the guy said that a non-white character would feel like a token character if they were the only one in the game, yet we have games like Far Cry 3, Uncharted, Resident Evil, Call of Duty, Splinter Cell, etc where the playable character is the lone white person in a sea of non-white npcs/enemies but at no point are those characters said to be forcing white people into a setting in which they don't belong. We're not presented with arguments about how white people should feel insulted that the developers just threw a white character into the game, despite the fact that they aren't native to whatever location the game takes place or are the only white person in a place with nothing but non-whites.
I don't have a problem if you want to put white people in any setting where there are mostly non-whites but I'm tired of non-white characters needing a level of justification that does not exist for white characters.
IdreamofHIME
Member
So much wrong with this. Mind you, Ready at Dawn's knowledge of 19th century Britain is probably on the same level as you.
Not really they have been doing it in Hollywood for years. I think especially in a game with werewolves etc we can look past the fact that a person of a certain ethnicity would unlikely be in a certain scenario based on how things were at a certain period in time. I didn't even know this was a thing with the order. Wow!
If you still don't understand why that imagery was contentious then you're a bit thick
Evidently, I am. What's wrong with a white soldier (and a black partner) killing black zombies in Africa? Not even people, zombies.
To be fair, I've never seen a black/black Asian person in a video game, dark-skinned sure. And to be fair, there are many Asian countries with really dark-skinned people.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Then we had Russell Crowe's accent in his 'reimagining' (where Robin is a plucky archer hilariously giving gratefully accepted, obviously revelatory strategic advice to the lords of the realm about the importance of sticking your archers on the high ground in battle) that was so bad he refused to talk about it in interviews! Was it supposed to be English? Irish? Scottish? American? NZ? Who knows.
Ah well, at least there's 'Men in Tights'. Where, 'unlike other Robin Hood's' Cary Lewes 'can talk with an English Accent'. And it's got a black sheriff too
Robin wouldn't have had an "English" accent. It's only been around for about 200 years.
People have pointed out that there is nothing historically inaccurate about having some black people in London in 1886. I have little knowledge about that myself, but it seems believable enough, and I don't think I would find it jarring (even without having read this thread).
Yet, I don't think that werewolves and fantasy weapons automatically means that "anything goes" in terms of historical inaccuracy. If they want a setting that feels like Victorian London, there are limits to how far they can deviate before they lose that feeling. Werewolves and secret societies with fantastical weapons might seem like a big deviation, but you could imagine their existence being largely hidden from history, helping the suspension of disbelief. Also, I assume they are important elements for the story and gameplay. If there were similar motivations for introducing an unhistorical amount of non-white people in the game, I wouldn't mind either. If it just felt like a case of heavy-handed political correctness, I might mind a little bit.
Palette Swap
Member
Also "I can't relate". This one never gets old.
This does complicate any social debate. People are so used to jumping to defend their favorite game/company they'd be willing to throw that kind of stuff under the bus just to clear the good name of their game.
Because the zombies were outdated African stereotypes that included spear weilding grasskirt wearing people. Along with the white protagonist fixing tge black peoples problems narrative many have an issue with
I remember Sessler stated the game had troubling imagery at the very least, and while I liked the game a lot', I'd agree with that assessment
Another example, RPG fans complaining that Asian-inspired classes will clash in their lily-white D&D fantasy world. Like Asian ninjas and samurai will stick out in a world filled with white necromancers, and white elven druids, and dark-skinned orcs.
And that last point, it gives the impression that regular black people don't belong in fantasy, but they are acceptable in "proxy" as brutish orcs. Or when trolls end up with Jamaican accents and act as witch doctor, or perform animistic shaman rituals reminiscent of Native Americans.
And that last point, it gives the impression that regular black people don't belong in fantasy, but they are acceptable in "proxy" as brutish orcs. Or when trolls end up with Jamaican accents and act as witch doctor, or perform animistic shaman rituals reminiscent of Native Americans.
Actually, that's something i find very annoying.
How everything set in a supposedly "olden time" has to have that stupid English accent, no matter if it's set in England, Rome, Turkey or whatever.
--
Anyhow, i think going at it with "there are werewolves, so anything goes" mentality is the wrong approach.
I think much like a lot of zombie fiction, the "monsters" (or the fantasy elements in a more realistic context) are usually used as a metaphor or a key to explore real social and philosophical issues.
I don't think fantasy and escapism are a binary switch that you either go for perfect realism, or lose any stylistic context.
With that said, i think it'd be cool to have at least one of the characters from The Order be a PoC, not only because it was very possible for them to be, given the historical context (because there were plenty of black people in London in the 1800s) but also because that's exactly the kind of diversity that gives your social and deeper narrative layers, that extra depth and diversity (The Knick, even though it's not a fantasy show, is a good example of how the story gets greatly enriched by having PoC perspective).
On top of that, it's simply good to fight off the idea of : white = normal.
The historical and racial context makes it particularly problematic.
Otherwise you could say that RE4 had Spanish people dressed like they were out of two centuries ago, but it's not exactly the same thing.
All of the examples you gave have setups where the setup is that white protags are an external element dropped into a foreign land. It makes sense that they'd be out of place, that's kinda the point.
In the case of the Order, the protags operate in their own backyard. If you have a minority as part of that team, yet minorities are conspicuously absent from the society they're operating in, there's a disconnect.
The thing about the idiotic "forced" or "shoehorned diversity" arguments is that they can be fairly easily addressed. What is the justification for an African/Arab/Indian guy being one of the fantasy Knights of the Roud Table? They're a total fucking badass. Problem solved.
As it stands, 3 dark haired white men and 1 dark haired white woman (who is prolly going to be pretty tropey, like she'll be an ice queen but be weaker than the men, need lots of saving, and eventually fall in love with the player character Because Reasons) is pretty bad character design. The guys are only distinguishable by facial hair and posture at first glance.
As it stands, 3 dark haired white men and 1 dark haired white woman (who is prolly going to be pretty tropey, like she'll be an ice queen but be weaker than the men, need lots of saving, and eventually fall in love with the player character Because Reasons) is pretty bad character design. The guys are only distinguishable by facial hair and posture at first glance.
Well there's an obvious solution here, isn't there? Unless game developers are allergic to having more than one nonwhite person on the screen at any time.
Stereogatari
Banned
What if the people creating the game's story and characters want the demographics to be a certain way? So in this case perhaps they wanted an all white lead cast. Is it right of us to stifle their freedom of expression and guilt trip them for not including a diverse cast?
Nah, the complaints had nothing to do with that.
The white man fixing black people problem is a pathetic point. This is what I mean with whining, damn. Not only there were black soldiers as well (Sheva, Josh and some members of his squad I guess) but it had NOTHING to do with skin color, Chris goes where he's needed. In RE6 he's in China, we kill many screaming guys with a machete jumping around, what a clichè... any asian got a problem with that? He was there to fix your problems guys, the big american soldier. No really, come on now :|
I repeat myself, there would not be a problem if we didn't think about it. For some reason we still look for anything that looks "suspiciously racist".
Also, the clothes were fine in villages or industrial places (the oil field, for example). They placed some really weird indigenous when we leave the villages, for the sake of gameplay I suppose, but that's a problem with design, not skin color. Seriously, do we remember what comes after? That lost ruins full of hidden treasure (?!), spiders and secret mechanism. RE5 is a mess when it comes to design, it has villages, huge secret labs full of tech, huge ships and so on. Black indegenous are not there for racism, are there because they did a bad job in design (and they did the same with RE6).
Yes.
I don't see anything wrong with the woman being weaker than the men physically given that that is exactly how it is in real life. Needing lots of saving on the other hand would be stupid.
Also having three dark haired white men as protagonists isn't in and of itself poor character design. Maybe in this case it is if they are only distinguishable by facial hair, but they could have easily made one more muscular, one super tall, etc. etc. etc. Having multiple skin colors is fine too of course, but saying that three white characters is poor character design reeks of forced diversity.
I wouldn't be bothered at all to see someone no-white in the game, though I'm also not bothered if they don't do it. That's white privilege I guess.
I believe there was criticism long before they showed the grass skirt zombies
Nobody's stifling anyone's freedom. Ready at Dawn remain free to make games with only white people in them. I remain free to criticize them for being lazy as hell. Even if this criticism miraculously takes and triggers a change in the demographics of the cast, it is still the developer being free to realize that a nomwhite person in a racist, very white setting opens up more interesting storytelling options.
Thought police out in full force I see.
That's a more reasonable sentiment. I wholeheartedly disagree with you, but I can't argue with your logic.
Yes, but seeing as noone knows what he would have sounded like, 'English' is probably a better stand-in for portraying the character to modern audiences, as it's what would be spoken by the character's equivalent today. Americans 200 years ago sounded different to today too, but we don't use Australian or French accents to portray historical US characters just because modern US accents wouldn't be correct either. A modern, local accent is still going to be a better fit when trying to depict the nature of such a character to a modern audience than one from another country, let alone one that hadn't even been discovered yet.
I can understand it when the vast majority of your audience doesn't speak the language, like modern Roman/Greek TV shows made and funded for western audiences. Shakespeare had his actors dress and speak in the costume and language of his 'present day', even when displaying historical events from Europe, as there is obviously some concession to getting across a characters background to a relatively poorly educated audience compared to resources. Even so, considering that directors today have a far wider choice of historical sources, voice coaches etc, a US accent in Costner's case, or whatever garbled mess Crowe was aiming for, just sounds silly. Particularly when jumping over Hadrian's wall on your way to Nottingham.
It's my way, or the skyway.
Just found ridiculous to associate discussion and even criticism on a message board or a blog with "censorship" or stifled freedom.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Great post! Characters shouldn't be reduced to their race since such an analysis is likely skewed towards racist results and the process itself could be considered racist. It's easy to see racism everywhere if all you're looking at is races.
SolidSnakex
Member
They've literally only shown five characters from the game. The four Knights and Tesla. That's it.
I can't believe RE5 is being discussed as if there's any doubt that were talking about incredibly problematic postcolonial imagery and power relationships. I guess that's white supremacy working the way it works.
Is this "you're the Real racist for pointing out racism" argument in video game form?
Is this "you're the Real racist for pointing out racism" argument in video game form?
No, you see, typically I would be taking down your IP address and real identity for immediate referral to the reeducation camps, but today I'm on vacation and simply can't be asked. Also, Dragon Age.
it's also one of those "so close to understanding the issue but so far away" posts
yes, it's easy to see racism everywhere if you look. that's because THERE IS RACISM EVERYWHERE.
Having ethnic minorities in The Order would make more sense than anything. At its peak of colonial power people living within colonies could travel freely within the commonwealth and many went to London to study or work.
We've likely ended up with something of a skewed perspective of that period much like how the wild west setting was whitewashed by all the western films from the mid 20th century.
We've likely ended up with something of a skewed perspective of that period much like how the wild west setting was whitewashed by all the western films from the mid 20th century.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Relax guys, race is just not the thing I focus on when I'm presented with any character or person so it seems off to me to say "One of those characters should be black" because the characters in question being white was never their defining characteristic -- to me. Much like if all of them were black I'd still be as interested in a game like The Order as I am now.
You may feel this way. Others don't. To other people, seeing themselves in media is significant. Read this article.
or this academic article from 2012
Stilton Disco
Member
The way I see it, a historical, real world based fantasy/fiction should reflect the realities of the era it depicted, where as a pure fantasy/fictional world should reflect the realities of the era it was written in.
So the Order being all well to do white European people in Victorian London, well that's just how Victorian London was, certainly if you're talking about anyone in a position of power or authority anyway.
Dragon Age however is entirely a creation of our modern society, and should be a lens through which we we can see our own experiences and modern world in a different light. Having everyone being a bunch of generic straight white American/English people in a purely fictional universe is just bollocks, and deliberately sticking two fingers up to a huge number of people who make up the games potential audience.
So the Order being all well to do white European people in Victorian London, well that's just how Victorian London was, certainly if you're talking about anyone in a position of power or authority anyway.
Dragon Age however is entirely a creation of our modern society, and should be a lens through which we we can see our own experiences and modern world in a different light. Having everyone being a bunch of generic straight white American/English people in a purely fictional universe is just bollocks, and deliberately sticking two fingers up to a huge number of people who make up the games potential audience.
That is my point. Goodness, I feel like I'm losing my mind in here. Why would a non-white character need any more set-up than that? Whenever we discuss non-white main characters, people inevitably bring up a belief that developers need a specific reason or justification beyond what is needed to explain any white character for existing in a game world. There is no reason that that should be the case.
I'm pretty much done discussing The Order because I wasn't arguing that non-whites had to be in that game but I find this kind of excuse to be extremely lazy in a game like that.
It would be cool if you read the thread before contributing. Your point has already been addressed and debunked a couple of times already.
Games developed in the US and Europe feature mostly white American and European characters, like games developed in Japan feature mostly Japanese characters, and so on.
I tend to make characters that look like me in games with character creation. This is the cause. A world where recourses are not so heavily concentrated in a few regions would level it out.
Never jarring. Realistic or not, it's a game. I expect artistic license, and surrealism.
I tend to make characters that look like me in games with character creation. This is the cause. A world where recourses are not so heavily concentrated in a few regions would level it out.
Never jarring. Realistic or not, it's a game. I expect artistic license, and surrealism.