Support NeoGAF

[Foffy]

If you own a version of DSII already, I would wait to see what "game play improvements" are brought by the patch are first (hit boxes, tracking, etc).

I'm not interested in buying a prettier version of the game that has Dark Souls II's current core problems.

Well, they are changing enemy placements, so this may also take into account hit boxes and tracking. If the shots of the Heide's Tower are any indication, the enemy changes may really change the game. If it's enemies in new locations but with all of the core underlying blemishes, it'll be something for some players to double dip into.

There's that and the DLC that give it some interest to me, but not at full price, and especially because it's going to be launching at nearly the exact same time as Bloodborne. But I do seriously hope they look under the hood to Dark Souls II and fix all of the little problems that make it a weaker entry than its predecessor. They may not be able to fix the level design in the vanilla game, but they can fix all of the problems the vanilla game had with combat.

 

[Sohaim]

God Dammnit.
If FROM and Namco release Dark Souls II on PS4 and Xbox One without at least it being 1080p 30 FPS + Original Lighting + full graphics detail, which would still be half the framerate of the TGS 2013 trailer (I'd be fine with that) all I could then say is...

dont get your hopes too high my friend ;/

 

[friskykillface]

I knew it haha
Good thing I waited B^)


After bloodborne too hmmmmmm

 

[Bl@de]

People are seriously getting their hopes up for the lighting?

Funny, isn't it? Knowing FROM I wouldn't be surprised with 1080p/30fps just because of some game logic ties to fps. No new lightning, no nothing

 

[AmyS]

dont get your hopes too high my friend ;/

Believe me, I'm not getting my hopes up :/

 

[Just_myles]

I don't need another reason to replay DS2. Just take my money From.

 

[Robot Pants]

Hahaha nah. Gonna skip this. Didn't like Dark Souls 2 and those graphical enhancements look minimal.


Plus Bloodborne so....

 

[CyberPunked]

Funny, isn't it? Knowing FROM I wouldn't be surprised with 1080p/30fps just because of some game logic ties to fps. No new lightning, no nothing

Yeah, FROM are the most technically incompetent developer. Even DS2 with it's original lighting didn't look that great, even compared to games like UC2 and Killzone 2 which were released years prior.

 

[subtleglitch]

I can't say I'm surprised...but I feel utterly disappointed in Namco for doing this to the PC community. Is this going to become a continuing trend when they release "HD upgrades" for the current gen consoles? They make PC gamers re-buy a game they already own for "upgraded graphics" and new content?

It's a cheap tactic, and I really don't want to support it. But ugh...I really love the Souls series. I'm just really, really disappointed.

They can either make the game $5 like they did for Deus Ex: HR for the Directors Cut (if you already owned the previous HR game), or make it a stupid price like Metro: Last Light Redux, which is $25, and I already own both Metro games.

Either way, I'm quite upset by this.

 

[Bl@de]

Yeah, FROM are the most technically incompetent developer. Even DS2 with it's original lighting didn't look that great, even compared to games like UC2 and Killzone 2 which were released years prior.

It looks good with 4K and HBAO+. But yeah, ... Souls games shine at gameplay, not graphics. And I'm happy that's the focus of FROM

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I can't say I'm surprised...but I feel utterly disappointed in Namco for doing this to the PC community. Is this going to become a continuing trend when they release "HD upgrades" for the current gen consoles? They make PC gamers re-buy a game they already own for "upgraded graphics" and new content?

I'm all for free upgrades and enhancements, but this kind of thing is why people often call gamers entitled.

Why should PC gamers be treated better and see more robust support than console folks who also bought the same game?

For the record, I primarily game on PC, not that it should matter in this discussion.

 

[Foffy]

I'm all for free upgrades and enhancements, but this kind of thing is why people often call gamers entitled.

Why should PC gamers be treated better and see more robust support than console folks who also bought the same game?

For the record, I primarily game on PC, not that it should matter in this discussion.

Because PS4 and Xbox One cannot play last gen games, so it makes sense for ports at new prices. The PC can play both the old and new version, especially considering the PC could have had all of the DX11 stuff at launch.

 

[CountAntonius]

I'm all for free upgrades and enhancements, but this kind of thing is why people often call gamers entitled.

Why should PC gamers be treated better and see more robust support than console folks who also bought the same game?

For the record, I primarily game on PC, not that it should matter in this discussion.

Because the game was limited by your consoles hardware.

Think of it this way.

If Bloodborne suddenly didn't look as good as it's preview builds at launch then a year later they released a better looking version that you could not upgrade to which made your save games incompatible and didn't allow you to play it with people who bought the original how would you feel?

 

[Easy_D]

Actually, Demon's is still kinda my favourite...

Never played it myself. Looks hella sweet though, being a Souls game and all.

 

[RK9039]

Why should PC gamers be treated better and see more robust support than console folks who also bought the same game?

For the same reasons why some people voiced their opinions against PS4 parity with the X1.

 

[subtleglitch]

I'm all for free upgrades and enhancements, but this kind of thing is why people often call gamers entitled.

Why should PC gamers be treated better and see more robust support than console folks who also bought the same game?

For the record, I primarily game on PC, not that it should matter in this discussion.

It's not a matter of feeling entitled at this stage, it's because the game was originally envisioned and showcased like this.

Then they decide to sell it to us again later. That's what bothers me, as a gamer. Not just a PC gamer. I also own and play on consoles, but I primarily game on PC. They aren't treating PC gamers with much respect though tbh.

 

[mickcenary]

This better not be full price. Last gen HD collections were great collections at good prices.



It was in the alpha on PS3, in all the pre-release videos, and the entire level structure was built around it. It's safe to say they didn't Ubisoft it.

Was it really in the Alpha? Man, I can't even remember. What I do remember is being nowhere near as impressed with the Alpha visuals as I was with the Mirror Knight vertical slice, but I guess the latter is a far better looking area.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Because PS4 and Xbox One cannot play last gen games, so it makes sense for ports at new prices. The PC can play both the old and new version, especially considering the PC could have had all of the DX11 stuff at launch.

This is what I don't understand. Just because the platform changed means that they should get to sell it to you again? In this digital age? If you can prove you bought the original game, why shouldn't the update be freely distributed to you on the new platform?

Because the game was limited by your consoles hardware.

Think of it this way.

If Bloodborne suddenly didn't look as good as it's preview builds at launch then a year later they released a better looking version that you could not upgrade to which made your save games incompatible and didn't allow you to play it with people who bought the original how would you feel?

Why does the hardware limitation matter?

"Powered up" game releases that come out a year later at nearly full price is actually a pretty common practice in Japan. Saved data can often be carried over, though.

It's not a matter of feeling entitled at this stage, it's because the game was originally envisioned and showcased like this.

Then they decide to sell it to us again later. That's what bothers me, as a gamer. Not just a PC gamer. I also own and play on consoles, but I primarily game on PC. They aren't treating PC gamers with much respect though tbh.

Yes, we know, but that game is gone. Even this update doesn't look to be bringing it back.

Regardless of all that, they put in work on this new version of the game. Enough to work to feel like they could justify charging for it. My question is why that's unacceptable on PC when it seems perfectly accepted on consoles, despite most of those players probably having paid more for the game?

Was it really in the Alpha? Man, I can't even remember. What I do remember is being nowhere near as impressed with the Alpha visuals as I was with the Mirror Knight vertical slice, but I guess the latter is a far better looking area.

It definitely wasn't in the beta build, at least. When did that take place? November or so of 2013?

 

[duckroll]

I don't think it is unreasonable to charge for an upgrade to a substantially improved game if there is enough work put into it. What I think is really stupid and short-sighted is making the upgrade so undesirable for the biggest fans of the game on the PC platform. It's the same platform, but yet even if you buy it again, you'll be unable to play it with the existing PC base, and you have to start from scratch instead of using your existing saves. That's pretty backwards.

 

[Foffy]

This is what I don't understand. Just because the platform changed means that they should get to sell it to you again? In this digital age? If you can prove you bought the original game, why shouldn't the update be freely distributed to you on the new platform?

You know, you are absolutely right on point here. The problem is that for the console space, that has not been a thing. On PC, it has. It's just FROM is going against the norm with this sort of practice. More people are probably up in arms over the PC version doing this as it breaks what has always been the trend only until recently, now that companies are trying to get away with the same things they've gotten away with on consoles.

 

[neojubei]

Bloodborne and Dark Souls 2 in the same year on the ps4? Wow Sony is going to own 2015

 

[ArynCrinn]

Here's something nobody is talking about. Which for me goes far further than any graphics debate or gameplay debates.

The major issue that almost nobody is talking about is Namco/Fromsoftware's EULA and their abuse of banning people phrased "restrictions put on your account" with no word or warning or email or no notice, and when you email Namco all you get is a copy/pasted allegation you've "broken the EULA" somehow, with of course no hard evidence to speak of. Going so far as to tell you to contact Fromsoft for further details, but once you get there they say to NOT contact them but the publisher...Namco. When Namco is pushed to actually give hard evidence, they tell you they've contacted Fromsoft and your Soul Memory and SL didn't match on a Sunday night at 4:00am when their was a full moon when the bird's were singing. But of course, again, no real hard evidence to ever back that up...just "Fromsoft investigated and said X or Y". Well, I can sit at a computer and stroke my penis with the best of them and say "X or Y is the reason you're restricted" too. They are even "restricting accounts" for backing up your save files...and then using them, using graphics mods (ENB's), if you play offline a long time level up a ton then go back online people can find themselves with restrictions. They actually will tell you that if you would like to play online normally to Family Share your game! It's almost as if they know they system is screwed up and that's their only way to spin the problem rather than fix it. It really is a grotesque abuse of consumer rights. If they've banned you for assuming you're some rampant cheating/hacking scum...why the hell why you flat tell people to Family Share the game if they were confident in the "cheat detection algorithms", seriously?

Meanwhile the real cheaters/hackers are still tearing it up and have all the freedom in the world while legit players try to find answers on the Steam forums and contacting Namco only to be called a lying cheating scum...because we all know that of all things in life Fromsoftware's cheat detection is totally infallible and no way on earth it could make mistakes or target incorrect accounts. But no, "community members" on Steam would rather just accuse people of lying about cheating than apply Occum's razor to the reality of the totality of issues Dark Souls 2 has faced since release.

 

[subtleglitch]

Yes, we know, but that game is gone. Even this update doesn't look to be bringing it back.

Regardless of all that, they put in work on this new version of the game. Enough to work to feel like they could justify charging for it. My question is why that's unacceptable on PC when it seems perfectly accepted on consoles, despite most of those players probably having paid more for the game?

We don't know exactly what is gone, and what they have kept. Although looking at some of the screenshots they have posted on facebook, it looks like they were possibly using the light engine that they originally showed off? Can't say for certain though.

The situation is slightly different for console gamer's currently, because it's only happening as a result of last gen games not being able to run on the current hardware.
Whereas, PC is quite capable of handing old and new technology, therefore making these sort of "HD remakes" feel sort of unnecessary.

If it weren't needed on console's, then I don't think it would be accepted by the console community either. No one like's having to pay for a game they own twice.

 

[Robot Pants]

Here's something nobody is talking about. Which for me goes far further than any graphics debate or gameplay debates.

The major issue that almost nobody is talking about is Namco/Fromsoftware's EULA and their abuse of banning people phrased "restrictions put on your account" with no word or warning or email or no notice, and when you email Namco all you get is a copy/pasted allegation you've "broken the EULA" somehow, with of course no hard evidence to speak of. Going so far as to tell you to contact Fromsoft for further details, but once you get there they say to NOT contact them but the publisher...Namco. When Namco is pushed to actually give hard evidence, they tell you they've contacted Fromsoft and your Soul Memory and SL didn't match on a Sunday night at 4:00am when their was a full moon when the bird's were singing. But of course, again, no real hard evidence to ever back that up...just "Fromsoft investigated and said X or Y". Well, I can sit at a computer and stroke my penis with the best of them and say "X or Y is the reason you're restricted" too. They are even "restricting accounts" for backing up your save files...and then using them, using graphics mods (ENB's), if you play offline a long time level up a ton then go back online people can find themselves with restrictions. They actually will tell you that if you would like to play online normally to Family Share your game! It's almost as if they know they system is screwed up and that's their only way to spin the problem rather than fix it. It really is a grotesque abuse of consumer rights. If they've banned you for assuming you're some rampant cheating/hacking scum...why the hell why you flat tell people to Family Share the game if they were confident in the "cheat detection algorithms", seriously?

Meanwhile the real cheaters/hackers are still tearing it up and have all the freedom in the world while legit players try to find answers on the Steam forums and contacting Namco only to be called a lying cheating scum...because we all know that of all things in life Fromsoftware's cheat detection is totally infallible and no way on earth it could make mistakes or target incorrect accounts. But no, "community members" on Steam would rather just accuse people of lying about cheating than apply Occum's razor to the reality of the totality of issues Dark Souls 2 has faced since release.

Sure thing, hacker.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I don't think it is unreasonable to charge for an upgrade to a substantially improved game if there is enough work put into it. What I think is really stupid and short-sighted is making the upgrade so undesirable for the biggest fans of the game on the PC platform. It's the same platform, but yet even if you buy it again, you'll be unable to play it with the existing PC base, and you have to start from scratch instead of using your existing saves. That's pretty backwards.

Again, why is the PC special in this case?

Save games not being compatible and servers being different (no matching between old and new) is the same on consoles. Just because it happens to exist on the same Windows OS? It's a different game, so matchmaking wouldn't make sense, no? I mean, I don't think players of Street Fighter IV can match up against Super Street Fighter IV players who also probably can't match up against Ultra Street Fighter IV players.

I'm not arguing for these restrictions, I just don't think the outrage is necessarily valid.

 

[SargerusBR]

Just realized this. DX11 version means no Gedosato support, right?

 

[FunkyLounge]

Just realized this. DX11 version means no Gedosato support, right?

...and no ENBseries support, which can make the lighting better that it seems from the dx11 shots

 

[Bad_Boy]

Not really sure im happy with this trend. Id rather see some remasters from the ps2 generation.

 

[Tahnit]

I just thought of something. They say the servers wont be shared. I think i have a reason for this.

The levels are going to be completely different layouts in terms of geometry.

Think about it. The previous videos showing off the fancy lighting and such and vastly different geometry. What if the whole game was so different that importing saves would be legitimately impossible. This makes me think more and more we are getting dark souls 2 the way it was supposed to be, with all the nice lighting and mood that we saw before they downgraded.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I just thought of something. They say the servers wont be shared. I think i have a reason for this.

The levels are going to be completely different layouts in terms of geometry.

Think about it. The previous videos showing off the fancy lighting and such and vastly different geometry. What if the whole game was so different that importing saves would be legitimately impossible. This makes me think more and more we are getting dark souls 2 the way it was supposed to be, with all the nice lighting and mood that we saw before they downgraded.

Even if the geometry were exactly the same, I imagine they plan on adding items and such, and otherwise making changes to the game where data in one version would not exist in the other.

 

[ArynCrinn]

Sure thing, hacker.

I actually was restricted due to this allegation:

If proof is shown, as in my case they claimed to have contacted Fromsoft and they said I was level 431 at X or Y SM on Sep 14th, which is why I was restricted...but of course no real evidence from Namco there...just "From said X or Y". Whereas I provided screenshot and video PvP proof that on Sep 17-18th my level was only 250, and only ever had 1 char on that save file ever! And after I sent proof they ignored me and all emails after that.

To which I had my lawyer contact the number they gave to me and he got it sorted within 20 minutes or so, I got a phone call from him saying the issue was taken care of, my online fully restored. That date they attached to this allegation is what ended up biting them in the ass.

TLR - Namco is scum who DOES ban legit players for idiotic reasons and lets hackers run abundantly. Hence "we got your money Scamco". It's quite clear Scamco is using the "contact From" as a shield to further ignore the issue since they know it leads to a dead end, and that THEY can fully restore your online access without really having to middleman From. Namco is pure garbage.

...so now, my online is fully restored, no restrictions. Gotta love a good lawyer with a phonecall and hard evidence.

 

[Mine01]

As a xbone owner I'm happy to hear this.

 

[Tahnit]

Even if the geometry were exactly the same, I imagine they plan on adding items and such, and otherwise making changes to the game where data in one version would not exist in the other.

look at the system requirements. Its such a jump up from the dx9 version that i really think we may be getting that vertical slice look.

 

[IrishNinja]

Bloodborne and Dark Souls 2 in the same year...

seriously jesus christ my body will not be able to take all this punishment

 

[WickedLaharl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tbLxKKCNQM

Skip to 1 hour 55 seconds.

"runs at a steady 30 after all"

Haha that is so not true. I can't imagine how bad it was before the downgrade.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

I don't think it is unreasonable to charge for an upgrade to a substantially improved game if there is enough work put into it. What I think is really stupid and short-sighted is making the upgrade so undesirable for the biggest fans of the game on the PC platform. It's the same platform, but yet even if you buy it again, you'll be unable to play it with the existing PC base, and you have to start from scratch instead of using your existing saves. That's pretty backwards.

Yeah how they (appear) to be handling the upgraded PC version is pretty bad. Splitting up the userbase over this seems nuts.

 

[duckroll]

Again, why is the PC special in this case?

Save games not being compatible and servers being different (no matching between old and new) is the same on consoles. Just because it happens to exist on the same Windows OS? It's a different game, so matchmaking wouldn't make sense, no? I mean, I don't think players of Street Fighter IV can match up against Super Street Fighter IV players who also probably can't match up against Ultra Street Fighter IV players.

I'm not arguing for these restrictions, I just don't think the outrage is necessarily valid.

The PC is the same platform. Consoles are across different platforms. That is the difference. The comparison with Street Fighter doesn't work because it is a matter of content. Here, they are giving the new content away for free in a 1.10 patch, so it's clearly not a "different game" on the content level. The split is technical in nature. The PS3 and 360 do not have the hardware to support the new technical features in the PS4 and XBO version, so they're not getting it. The PC does, so it makes way less sense.

 

[OmegaDL50]

So how much different was Sleeping Dogs Definitive over the standard Sleeping Dogs.

At first I initially thought it was going to be just a hi-res update or DLC pack for PC version owners.

But that also turned out to be two separate releases too.

I really don't care much for this trend of re-releasing the same game not too long after the previous version and it more or less having an effect on existing owners of the game.

At least I hope like with Sleeping Dogs, this new update to Dark Souls II will allow existing owners of the original PC release to get a heavily discounted upgrade (Even though I think DX11 update should be free and just keep the new content separate for DLC purposes)

 

[BasilZero]

I'll wait for DS2 on PC when its gets cheaper I mean.

I'll get Bloodborne sometime in the future after I buy PS4.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The PC is the same platform. Consoles are across different platforms. That is the difference. The comparison with Street Fighter doesn't work because it is a matter of content. Here, they are giving the new content away for free in a 1.10 patch, so it's clearly not a "different game" on the content level. The split is technical in nature. The PS3 and 360 do not have the hardware to support the new technical features in the PS4 and XBO version, so they're not getting it. The PC does, so it makes way less sense.

Without having further details, it's hard to continue a discussion, but their chart calls out "enemy placement/renovated game design" as being exclusive to the new version. I don't know if that means new assets/geometry changes, but it obviously seems to be big enough to break compatibility with the old version. Even just changed enemy placements would do that.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Nice, im glad I waited. Very good news for me.

 

[Mentok]

Having beaten the game multiple times, I'll pass. But for those who haven't played it yet, here's hoping this new release fixes a lot of the issues DS2 had!

 

[Easy_D]

Without having further details, it's hard to continue a discussion, but their chart calls out "enemy placement/renovated game design" as being exclusive to the new version. I don't know if that means new assets/geometry changes, but it obviously seems to be big enough to break compatibility with the old version. Even just changed enemy placements would do that.

Sounds like a simple patch to me.

 

[duckroll]

Without having further details, it's hard to continue a discussion, but their chart calls out "enemy placement/renovated game design" as being exclusive to the new version. I don't know if that means new assets/geometry changes, but it obviously seems to be big enough to break compatibility with the old version. Even just changed enemy placements would do that.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying here. I'm saying that it is impossible to upgrade the PS3 and 360 versions to the high-spec version because of hardware limitations. The PC as a platform does not have this issue. There is no reason why they cannot put in the effort to make the transition from current PC users smoother. If the response is "why is the PC special" then the answer is because the PC platform has special circumstances they can take advantage of in this case. It's not about entitlement, it is about how they can take advantage of what one situation offers which the other situations do not. I'm not saying it should be a free upgrade, I'm saying that not looking into the option of letting people migrate their characters and share the online userbase whenever possible is a mistake.

Arguing that everything should be the way it is because it's like that on other platforms shows a lack of understanding towards the options available on a given platform. There is official modding support for games like Skyrim and Fallout on PC. These are not available on consoles. It is not because the PC is given special treatment, it is because they're taking advantage of the options available on the PC platform.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Sounds like a simple patch to me.

Again, without knowing the details, it's hard to say either way. They have a big "various modifications" patch that also adds new characters and events and supplements the lore and such, so the exclusive "renovated gameplay," must be something bigger than just balance changes.

We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.

 

[Mman235]

Oh shit, the DLC already put DS2 as my favourite, but with the right tweaks this could further that. Assuming something far reaching enough an immediate wishlist of fixes would be improving the few legit broken hitboxes, Adaptability tweaks to make low-level rolling less awkward (which would fix all the other "hitbox" complaints), a better final boss and for Shaded Woods to not literally look like a mediocre PS2 game. I hope the new NPC storylines are more involved too.

Spoiler

World additions=RIP Iron Keep sky elevator?

 

[duckroll]

Again, without knowing the details, it's hard to say either way. They have a big "various modifications" patch that also adds new characters and events and supplements the lore and such, so the exclusive "renovated gameplay," must be something bigger than just balance changes.

We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.

They might not be "bigger" but rather simply tie into the technical aspects. From the chart, my understanding would be that whatever changes they're doing to enemy placements and gameplay, these are things which would not run on PS3 and 360, so it could simply be a matter of having certain enemies in a place which would tank the framerate such that it is unplayable. Just a guess.

 

[Novocaine]

I know there aren't a lot of people saying so, but man, it's really bumming me out to read that some people are now unsure as to which game to prioritise.

Bloodborne is Half-Life 3. This is a remaster of HL2: Episode 1 (forgive me if this doesn't resonate; my Half-Life community consensus knowledge isn't up to snuff).

You will make no stupider decision in 2015 than opting to play, or giving preferential treatment to this remaster over Bloodborne.

And finally, LOL at those screenshots.

Have you played Bloodborne? I'm assuming yes because you seem to know all about how good it is.

I haven't played it, I'm sure it will be good, but I have hundreds of hours in DS2 so I know for a fact that DS2 is awesome.

So I'll most likely be playing and enjoying both.

 

[pager99]

I got about half way tru ds2 moved onto ps4 had a blast with it
will double dip and finish this beaut off on ps4 )

 

[Audioboxer]

Haven't played any DLC, will double dip.