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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U |OT| True Potential of Smash Bros.

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Monster Zero said:
Your DK still has me checking my shield man, sorry for the shitty defense, but you don't know how loud a GameCube controller is until you're next to someone sleeping. I'm trying all hard not to press the R button to loud lol. Tried the gamepad in the last game and it's terrible
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It's funny you say that! Last night after I put my daughter to sleep I was hesitant with my play because of the stupid loud clicking of the GC controller! I'm really starting to enjoy the pro controller over it more and more.
 
Monster Zero said:
Your DK still has me checking my shield man, sorry for the shitty defense, but you don't know how loud a GameCube controller is until you're next to someone sleeping. I'm trying all hard not to press the R button to loud lol. Tried the gamepad in the last game and it's terrible
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Haha,went through this same thing last night. My girlfriend was trying to sleep and with every button I pressed I could feel her getting annoyed. I switched over to playing Omega Ruby so she wouldn't leave me.
 
The sound of the GameCube pad is loud, yes, but it's also amazing. That springy sound is unique. It's the sound of quality.

It's honestly the gaming equivalent of the Harley-Davidson roaring sound.
 
My grandparents were over for thanksgiving and are sleeping not too far from me...now this thread has me self conscious, hahaha.
 
I just realized, when you complete the challenge "Have the game on for more than 10 hours". It shows a picture of 3 Wii Fit Trainers.

As if the game is telling you to stop playing, and go get some exercise.
 
anyone up for a 1vs1?
I tried some online games but they were very laggy. So I wanna check if it's me.
So I would be thankful if I can test this with someone here.

My NNID: Soul-Lab
 
euphemism said:
I was asking you what YOU meant.



I have PM, I have probably played more than 50 hours of it. Don't know which version because I haven't updated in a bit, but I have hands on experience with how it plays. Yes, it plays more like Melee, yes it has more AT. But that doesn't make a game technical or complex, it's the number of levels of interconnectivity, interaction, and degrees of freedom. Just because the physics are less floaty doesn't mean they are more complex or even realistic. It just means they are closer to what you prefer. That's fine, it's just not objective so don't pretend it is. I don't even know what you mean by "precision" or "timings", but I'll guess that you mean either that it has lower latency between button press and action, or that it enables faster strings of attacks by allowing more open movement options? Again, this is the reason I asked for your definitions of your own terms. But since you refuse to do a simple step that would allow us to converse constructively using terms I understand then I now have to guess at your meaning.



This is the Crux of what I don't understand about your position. Yes, PM is objectively better than brawl because of removal of tripping, a randomized anticompetitive element that made brawl annoying to even practice. BUT it isn't universally loved over brawl because the community that loves it universally isn't the entirety of the smash community. It is a vocal subset of the majority of over 12M people that bought the game. How many of those people have PM? I don't know, but Id wager less than a third. Maybe you know, since you are so ingrained in that community. You're the one that claimed it was universally loved after all. I like it more than brawl, but gaming enthusiasts and Te fighting game community is a sliver of Brawl players. This mantra of "the community" is meaningless when you carve out all the "casuals" which brawl was clearly made for. Well sm4sh was made with both "the community" and those people too. Sm4sh was made for the broader community including casuals and JP competitors. And it doesn't have anticompetitive elements that make it unplayable. If nintendo made games to cater to its "biggest fans", it would have died long ago. I understand who Sakurai is making these games for. I understand that, that's why I am not surprised when compromises to what I personally would like in a game come up. You however...



...expect Nintendo, one of the most stubborn and slow to change companies in the industry to be interested in the mod communities efforts? I mean, I WISH they would, but expecting them to do so and getting mad enough about it to come on GAF and rage about it is akin to expecting JK Rowling to incorporate the best Harry Potter Fanfic into future books. It would be cool, but you're setting yourself up for disappointment, get real
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To I suppose answer your question concerning PM, I'll just give two concrete examples, there are obviously a TON more but those sort of require a lot of "advanced techniques".

1) Wavedashing
2) Cancelling (different ways aplenty)

For example, you might notice that if you are using Charizard or Little Mac Forward+Special (other examples exist too), if you don't space it correctly you'll just end up flying off the edge and especially problematic due to Mac's poor recovery. Well, with the cancelling options this would rarely be the case unless you are a total shrink wrap noob, since you'd essentially be able to cancel the move before actually flying off the edge to death or attempted recovery. The enhanced combo game this also offers would pay dividends for Mac's ground-based game, using short hop cancels and whatnot. And spacing while still extremely important doesn't impair you rather than empower you in most cases.

The speed/physics and tighter/faster controls also factor into this. Because not only is the attack layer much more open to combo/movement freedom but it also doubles the defense layer too, at the same time pretty much due to the same principles. So you go from offense to defense to offense and back again, comboing everywhere, wavedashing is also about both offense and defense, canceling and otherwise having a faster paced more precise and tighter controlled "feel". So that's my take on it, just to provide two examples.
 
Sorry if this has been asked many many times before but how does the Wii U Pro controller feels?

My gf picked up Smash yesterday and I'm excited to play it but we couldn't find the gamecube controller bundle and maybe tomorrow we will buy a pro.

Besides the gamecube controller what's the best option?

Thanks!
 
I cant stop picking shulk the only character I use. I've only tried like 6 characters and they were the N64 ones. Was able to beat all-star mode with shulk on hard, but I think hes a shit character. I don't even know how I get wins 1v1 with him. I think its those stances.
 
zert said:
Sorry if this has been asked many many times before but how does the Wii U Pro controller feels?

My gf picked up Smash yesterday and I'm excited to play it but we couldn't find the gamecube controller bundle and maybe tomorrow we will buy a pro.

Besides the gamecube controller what's the best option?

Thanks!
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I love it. Everyone else I know personally hates it. If the placement of the analogs really bothers you, it's probably best if you stick with the GC controller.
 
zert said:
Sorry if this has been asked many many times before but how does the Wii U Pro controller feels?

My gf picked up Smash yesterday and I'm excited to play it but we couldn't find the gamecube controller bundle and maybe tomorrow we will buy a pro.

Besides the gamecube controller what's the best option?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I love it. Definitely a great alternative if you don't want to buy the adapter. Then again, I used the Pro on Wii/Brawl, too.
 
ArynCrinn said:
2) Cancelling (different ways aplenty)

For example, you might notice that if you are using Charizard or Little Mac Forward+Special (other examples exist too), if you don't space it correctly you'll just end up flying off the edge and especially problematic due to Mac's poor recovery. Well, with the cancelling options this would rarely be the case unless you are a total shrink wrap noob, since you'd essentially be able to cancel the move before actually flying off the edge to death or attempted recovery.
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This is a bad example, since knowing how to space and use abilities is an example of depth over complexity which is, arguably, a better design choice. Canceling is complexity and more button prompts, spacing and weighing options is depth. Much of Sm4sh is designed around the idea of depth rather than needless complexity. There are at least two moves to a character that can be used as safe, lagless approach options in Sm4sh and there are two or more moves that are incredibly punishing or that flow into a combo game that are not lagless. (There would be more options if they upped the hit-stun just a tad.)

Its the same reason I am not a fan of L-canceling (though I do like wavedashing). There is never a time to not use it, nor is there ever a time to not just use the canceling techniques littered within PM.
 
I'm up at my parents' beach condo for Thanksgiving, and my Smashing is limited to Smash 3DS until I get back... the thirst is real. Smash 3DS is great, but it just can't compare to the Wii U version.

Anyway, anyone have any tips for completing the reward conditions in the Event where you're Samus in a Stamina match and have to fight Ridley and "Dark Samus" (an AI Samus with the Dark Samus color swap)? I think you have to beat it on Hard in 100 seconds or something, but the AI in that one is just so stupidly unfair that I can't figure out how in the world you're supposed to do that.

Or maybe the AI's not that hard and it's just me being really terrible with Samus. Seriously, she's one of my absolute worst characters. :(
 
Vena said:
This is a bad example, since knowing how to space and use abilities is an example of depth over complexity which is, arguably, a better design choice. Canceling is complexity and more button prompts, spacing and weighing options is depth. Much of Sm4sh is designed around the idea of depth rather than needless complexity. There are at least two moves to a character that can be used as safe, lagless approach options in Sm4sh and there are two or more moves that are incredibly punishing or that flow into a combo game that are not lagless. (There would be more options if they upped the hit-stun just a tad.)

Its the same reason I am not a fan of L-canceling (though I do like wavedashing). There is never a time to not use it, nor is there ever a time to not just use the canceling techniques littered within PM.
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Well, I guess I'm a fan of complexity then, particularly in fighters.

But your splitting two concepts that go together like back and front...
 
ArynCrinn said:
But your splitting two concepts that go together like back and front...
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I am not splitting them unintentionally, I've read this argument before that problem is that there is a difference between complexity married to depth, and complexity for the sake of complexity. PM is the more the latter. Complexity is fine if comes with any actual depth to its existence as in when they compliment each other and there exist situations in which the use of a complex skill is not the best option, but complexity that is always superior to not is not what I consider a good design choice. In fact I consider that a design choice that misses the forest for the trees and just chases the goose of "technical skill".

Complexity in a fighter game where you have to use certain, elaborate combinations to use very complicated but timely skills is good complexity that comes with a depth of knowing how, when, and where to use it. Complexity where you simply have an easy out for any and every move, ie. l-canceling and a lot of PM's cancels, are bad complexity as its just another action that does nothing but separate the informed (of its existence) from the not.

This is why I said that P:M has its fair share of arguably bad design choices.
 
MaverickHunterAsh said:
I'm up at my parents' beach condo for Thanksgiving, and my Smashing is limited to Smash 3DS until I get back... the thirst is real. Smash 3DS is great, but it just can't compare to the Wii U version.

Anyway, anyone have any tips for completing the reward conditions in the Event where you're Samus in a Stamina match and have to fight Ridley and "Dark Samus" (an AI Samus with the Dark Samus color swap)? I think you have to beat it on Hard in 100 seconds or something, but the AI in that one is just so stupidly unfair that I can't figure out how in the world you're supposed to do that.

Or maybe the AI's not that hard and it's just me being really terrible with Samus. Seriously, she's one of my absolute worst characters. :(
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The AI's a f***ing asshole in free-for-alls. It always feels like they focus on you way more than eachother.

Every time, in every mode.

Anyway, you only have to beat it on Normal (or higher) in 80 seconds (1 minute and 20 seconds).

I normally focus on Dark Samus first, Ridley's the easiest since his attacks are telegraphed.
 
Vena said:
I am not splitting them unintentionally, I've read this argument before that problem is that there is a difference between complexity married to depth, and complexity for the sake of complexity. PM is the more the latter. Complexity is fine if comes with any actual depth to its existence as in when they compliment each other and there exist situations in which the use of a complex skill is not the best option, but complexity that is always superior to not is not what I consider a good design choice. In fact I consider that a design choice that misses the forest for the trees and just chases the goose of "technical skill".

Complexity in a fighter game where you have to use certain, elaborate combinations to use very complicated but timely skills is good complexity that comes with a depth of knowing how, when, and where to use it. Complexity where you simply have an easy out for any and every move, ie. l-canceling and a lot of PM's cancels, are bad complexity as its just another action that does nothing but separate the informed (of its existence) from the not.

This is why I said that P:M has its fair share of arguably bad design choices.
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Yes, I understand. But you realize at once that no great game can have any meaningful "depth" without complexity of some sort. And no great game can have "complexity" without depth of some sort. They are interconnected. As you said too much of anything is not good, but I err on the side of complexity in terms of what you can do as a player with Smash's gameplay and movement freedom on top of a already jampacked game with tons of depth vs. the simpler approach Brawl and Smash4 went.

I'm a stalwart advocate of player agency, and in the context of fighters the amount of tight control feedback, technical advanced options and overall "feel" of the char/s is paramount. For me PM nails that more than any Smash ever made.
 
ArynCrinn said:
Well, I guess I'm a fan of complexity then, particularly in fighters.

But your splitting two concepts that go together like back and front...
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I'm not sure they do. The thing you linked to gives many examples of situations where complexity doesn't lead to depth :3

I think when designing a game you ideally want a few intuitive ways of interfacing with the game (simple) but that can be mixed or used in multiple ways inside of the game without additional inputs to create true depth. A good example would be portal: the interface is simple in that you basically just shoot 2 different types of portal, but how the physics and environment can be manipulated or how they interact with these portals creates a surprising amount of depth in form of possibilities and all without any additional input from the player :D
This is especially true if you're trying to make a prototype boardgame, which will outright require the players to handle a lot of the mechanics themselves so if you complicate them it not only makes the game feel daunting but also slows the whole thing down to a crawl :P

Don't get me wrong though, there is an audience for... well... digital agility. Finger atheletes if you will. I'm not one of them but I know a few and they enjoy challenging execution from time to time where I find it unnecessary and an obstacle between me and the 'real' game. In many ways that's perhaps why it's good that we have both PM and Smash 4 as each caters to the different halves of this debate in their own way :3
 
ArynCrinn said:
Yes, I understand. But you realize at once that no great game can have any meaningful "depth" without complexity of some sort. And no great game can have "complexity" without depth of some sort. They are interconnected. As you said too much of anything is not good, but I err on the side of complexity in terms of what you can do as a player with Smash's gameplay and movement freedom on top of a already jampacked game with tons of depth vs. the simpler approach Brawl and Smash4 went.
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Chess is deep, but not complex.
World of Warcraft raids are often complex, but not deep.
 
Korezo said:
I cant stop picking shulk the only character I use. I've only tried like 6 characters and they were the N64 ones. Was able to beat all-star mode with shulk on hard, but I think hes a shit character. I don't even know how I get wins 1v1 with him. I think its those stances.
Click to expand...

If you want to get better with shulk, learn his full attack arsenal before jumping into the monado arts. Know when to back slash and dont be too predictable/spammy with the counter. His down smash is great to catch constant side dodgers off guard since the attack duration lasts awhile. Learn to use Nair and Fair effectively.

MaverickHunterAsh said:
I'm up at my parents' beach condo for Thanksgiving, and my Smashing is limited to Smash 3DS until I get back... the thirst is real. Smash 3DS is great, but it just can't compare to the Wii U version.

Anyway, anyone have any tips for completing the reward conditions in the Event where you're Samus in a Stamina match and have to fight Ridley and "Dark Samus" (an AI Samus with the Dark Samus color swap)? I think you have to beat it on Hard in 100 seconds or something, but the AI in that one is just so stupidly unfair that I can't figure out how in the world you're supposed to do that.

Or maybe the AI's not that hard and it's just me being really terrible with Samus. Seriously, she's one of my absolute worst characters. :(
Click to expand...

Up tilt, all day erry day. Seriously up tilt the hell out of dark samus then go after ridley and hope he dosent stall in the background so much.
 
ArynCrinn said:
Yes, I understand. But you realize at once that no great game can have any meaningful "depth" without complexity of some sort. And no great game can have "complexity" without depth of some sort. They are interconnected. As you said too much of anything is not good, but I err on the side of complexity in terms of what you can do as a player with Smash's gameplay and movement freedom on top of a already jampacked game with tons of depth vs. the simpler approach Brawl and Smash4 went.
Click to expand...

Yes, I understand this. But the complexity in PM/L-canceling doesn't do anything with regards to depth. Its just there to speed up the game and give players effectively infinite options on a move rather than force them to weigh move options on the fly. I do not like this sort of design because its a design, as a said, of complexity for the sake of complexity (and in cases takes away from the depth of the game). Games can be sped up in other ways.

Brawl was a simplistic game with most of its depth ripped from its heart by various mechanics, but to say "tons of depth vs. the simpler approach" of Sm4sh is to simply smear mud. Sm4sh is a solid game that has complexity and depth. Frankly, the 4v4 mechanics of 8-man as have already been getting demonstrated in VGBoot are leagues above anything P:M can offer in terms of layered team-based (building, synergy) complexity and depth.

I'm also not a fan of how the punish game works in Melee/PM, and I'm honestly starting to really enjoy Sm4sh's off-stage and ledge game.
 
Geminosity said:
I'd go one step further and say that MMOs and a lot of RPGs in general are usually complex but not deep ;D
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Agreed.

Fighting games are almost inherently deep. Even a game like Dive Kick has respectable depth. Complexity is only worthwhile if it produces additional depth. A change like making Flare Blitz cancelable reduces depth, but increases complexity.
 
Did the nintendo network fall dead in europe? I can't enter eshop, miiverse and can't even get into the smash lobby to see if my problem is gone or i should call my isp. It's dead for me.
 
Karsticles said:
Chess is deep, but not complex.
World of Warcraft raids are often complex, but not deep.
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Well you and I must have watched very different matches. Fischer and Kasparov would certainly disagree with you. Well, Fischer would probably just make some rude remark to you and walk away, Gary would school you though.

By the by. My roommate who's a absolute obsessed chess fanatic laughed when I just repeated that to him. xD

But for the sake of argument, would you consider Super Meat Boy and Dark Souls more "complex" or more "depth"?
 
Karsticles said:
Curious about something, sir: how do you interpret what your source told you now that the full game is released?
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Exactly the same as when the game wasn't, to be honest :)

I personally think that Chorus Men isn't happening, but I still have my hopes up for Dixie!
 
ArynCrinn said:
Well you and I must have watched very different matches. Fischer and Kasparov would certainly disagree with you. Well, Fischer would probably just make some rude remark to you and walk away, Gary would school you though.

By the by. My roommate who's a absolute obsessed chess fanatic laughed when I just repeated that to him. xD
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Mechanically, chess is very simple. That's what he was getting at.
 
ArynCrinn said:
Well you and I must have watched very different matches. Fischer and Kasparov would certainly disagree with you. Well, Fischer would probably just make some rude remark to you and walk away, Gary would school you though.
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He meant mechanically not holistically with rules et al.

If you want to be reductive to this point, though, you can easily replace Chess with Go, and his point still stands. Go is governed entirely by two rules and nothing more.
 
First smash game I've ever played. I got the game yesterday and went to training for about 6 hours trying to find characters I like. I found quite a few and decided to try my hand online. Played 4 player smash and got destroyed for about 2 hours straight lol. Probably not the best idea to go online in a game I've never played before but what started as initially testing online to 'see if it works' turned into 2 hours of getting destroyed. Well at least I learnt stuff. Something tells me I should probably get accustomed to single player before going online and thinking stuff I learned in practice for a few hours will make me suddenly good :P Enjoying the game a lot though :D
 
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