Support NeoGAF

[Off-Kilter]

Absolutely. I do take issue with him referencing gaf as a whole since the vast majority of us aren't batshit crazy

I imagine it would be easier to just say NeoGAF than "certain members in certain threads of some communities, like NeoGAF". Plus I don't think any of this is all too serious anyway. Everyone looked like they were just chilling out and having a good time up there

 

[SolarPowered]

Can someone bring me up to speed on this? Is there really a significant number of people on GAF who are upset that you kill a lot of people in a shooting game?

Yes, there are a lot of people. For me it takes me out of the game somewhat, but I can deal with insufficient context or justification for all the killing because it IS a game. The problem is the game putting you through a massive meat grinder for the sake of it. Shit gets boring. I replayed all three UC games about six months ago and I nearly put UC1 away permanently within a couple of hours (chapter 7) because I had already gotten over 150 headshots (not including the remaining 50+ I killed with weapons that weren't the pistol). It was a boring slog. That is why UC2 resonates with people. It tosses in some stealth and different setpieces before droves and droves of enemies start to drag the pace of the game to a crawl.

UC2 and TLoU were really the best ND games in that regard. Rarely did I feel like the game was just tying shackles to my legs in an effort to slow me down. The number of enemies was just right and it was one of the things that people appreciated about that games even if they didn't articulate it.

 

[Always-honest]

Hope he has been ignoring the last few days too, to be honest...

 

[BloodMoney]

well done.

Hope he has been ignoring the last few days too, to be honest...

basically.

 

[Ysiadmihi]

Wow the game industry really hates Neogaf ? why ?

I guess it's because GAF has a pretty loud voice and even the stupidest opinions that come out of it are read by those in the industry. It's a little scary that he even had to address a complaint like this at all.

 

[Zyae]

His comparison was very stupid. Next to Nathan Drake, Indy barely kills anyone.
Not that I care about Drake's murders or anything in that debate, but it made no sense.

EDIT:

Did you even read the text in the picture? It means Indy himself killed 45 people in three films.

The Original 3 movies are 6.2 hours


Uncharted 1 2 and 3 are about 12-15 hours each

 

[Acquiescence]

He's right, and the Indiana Jones comparison is an apt one. You don't watch Raiders of the Lost Ark and fret over every time Indy takes down another Nazi grunt. If you start to question how many of those soldiers that he mercilessly slaughtered had families and weren't really bad people then you're denying yourself the ability to enjoy one of the greatest films ever made for a silly pedantic reason, and Uncharted is no different. As Neil puts it, Uncharted is a "stylised reality," it isn't wholly realistic, and once you realise that then it's not difficult to suspend your disbelief and ignore/lambast the mass murdering claims. The series is very far-fetched and theatrical in its action set-pieces and combat scenarios, despite having a basis in reality, so it's silly to question Nate's methods or his moral compass. Geez, if some people had their way, that scene in RotLA where Indy nonchalantly shoots down the expert swordsman would've been removed from the final cut.

Keep ignoring Neogaf Neil.

 

[LX_Theo]

Absolutely. I do take issue with him referencing gaf as a whole since the vast majority of us aren't batshit crazy

Even the "ideas" and opinions from many of the not crazies should still probably be ignored though. The idea applies to more than neogaf, but its probably the biggest center of true discussion of that nature.

Its like saying don't listen to the armchair coach in sports.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

This was something that bugged me about The Last of Us when I played it again on the PS4. I had thought that I could mostly sneak my way past some scenarios to avoid having to kill every last enemy, but nope. Too often I found myself needing to go back to the enemies and make sure every last one of em was taken down in order for the fire escape ladder to magically work, or for a door to magically unlock.

These are games, yes, and what I just described happens in a lot of them, sure, but the tone TLOU sets and has been sold upon is based upon being able to make those survival choices of when to engage and when its not worth it, the game doesn't always live up to that promise.

Really? Cause I know plenty of sections that can be completely negated if you sneak by, and even if you get caught you can escape to the exit location.

Can you give some examples? I'm actually curious what can't be skipped if you're engaged.

 

[Ogimachi]

You think Indy's killing number would be closer if his movies lasted 10-15 hours? Have to look at that also.

Even if you take that into consideration, they're not in the same league. The 4 films are roughly 2 hours long each. What do you think would be Drake's average kill count in 8 hours?

 

[jackdoe]

Uncharted get it's the most because, killing aside, Drake comes off as a personable, well written dude. It makes the juxtaposition between comedic quips and sick headshots more glaring.

Not really. The key is that they ignore it and roll with it because it's a staple of the genre. Which is what Star Wars does. You have a farm boy who kills human beings for the first time and doesn't bat an eyelash. Because that's what's expected of the genre. That way, you don't bring up these glaring juxtapositions, something that Tomb Raider ended up creating because it didn't roll with it.

 

[Jobbs]

just to sidestep the topic a bit, to anyone who wants a game that has conflict and battle and shooting enemies in it, but does it in a very restrained way with a relatively low body count, fucking play alien isolation. It may be my GOTY.

 

[TAJ]

Teehee. One person dies in the first Rambo. That's a bad example!

Rambo personally averaged 73 in the sequels, so not really.

 

[NateDrake]

You can't ignore me. I am Nate Drake & I'm on NeoGAF!

 

[RE_Player]

I agree with him.

Also do people really take it personally when others call out Gaf? I really like it here but it's not like some defining thing in my life.

 

[jimi_dini]

Neil basically said it's like Indiana Jones and him killing lots and lots of Nazi's. You don't think about that, it's just pure escapism.

Which is of course not true at all. Druckmann should watch those movies again.

Indiana Jones kills 9 people directly in Raiders of the lost ark. 21 in Temple of doom and 13 in the last crusade. And possibly 1 in crystal skull.

However Last Crusade was full of nazis and that's the only good thing about nazis - you can kill how many you like and noone will bat an eye.

And Temple of Doom was full of evil people, who enslaved children. That's almost on the same level as child rapists. Noone will bat an eye about those either.

Drake however just kills all sorts of foreigners. And lots and lots of them. Not just 20 or so. No Nazis in Uncharted games. No people, who enslave children and rip hearts out of people. So it's not the same. Not at all.

It gets kinda silly when you just take a look at the trophies of Uncharted 1. Only the weapon trophies alone are about killing 550 people in cold blood.

14 trophies are about treasure. 30 are about kill people and 4 are about difficulty settings. That's kinda embarassing, don't you think?

 

[theWB27]

The tone of the rest of the game is Indy, when you spend so much time shooting at sponges, it detaches itself from that tone. That's not my biggest issue with action in Uncharted though, I just think it would be much better if they turn the amount of time you spend shooting down and make each encounter more meaningful.

I like my Drake damn near superhero....

 

[FinalStageBoss]

Some ppl on Gaf are nuts Neil, don't take us too seriously

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

If that's all you fathomed from his response, then I suggest suing whatever educational institution you attended.

Haha

 

[Game4life]

Nowhere near the body counts from what I've heard. Granted I haven't played Uncharted, but any Ramboalike in gaming has more bodies dropped in two hours than most of those movies will have across a trilogy.

Shooting is the simplest way to engage a player in videogames. The simplest way to create a feeling of connection between player and character. This is why so many games rely on it.

What I find funny though, is even while poo-pooing GAF for having the opinion, they are actively redesigning the series to allow for someone to ignore wanton violence.

Makes no difference. Indiana kills, quips about it and laughs about it afterwards. If he kills 45 versus Nate who kills 400 should not make a difference. A person who feels killing followed by funny quips is ignoring the gravitas and seriousness of the situation would and should be offended by both. In that case movies like that and games like that are not for them and they can move on.

Regarding your second bolded part the stealth has been incorporated straight from TLOU to provide more options. You will still I assure you most likely have a body count of atleast over 200 and you will still have Nathan Drake making funny quips. Obviously Neil does not give a shit about this useless criticism and rightfully so.

 

[Speevy]

That guy on the right looks like Will Sasso's George Lucas.

 

[Jarmel]

Evil henchmen in pulp action films don't get to be actual human beings because they're casted to die by the hands of the good guy. They are fearless and relentless, who try to kill the protagonist no matter what because that is their sole purpose aside from falling off a railing or giving a Wilhelm scream as they inevitably die. Not so different from Uncharted.

Well this is one of the things that becomes more noticeable when you jack the body count up so high. It is sort of a genre trope but it can break immersion when after you finished killing literally a hundred of someone's buddies, they react in the same manner as the first game.

 

[Feep]

Wow the game industry really hates Neogaf ? why ?

I don't know about "hate", but NeoGAF is largely populated by consumers who have no flying fuck about the realities of game development, publishing, financing, or really any major facet of production. Which I want to stress is fine, it's not any consumer's job to know any of that, but seeing threads calling out developers for being lazy when they probably just worked a 120 hour workweek just to meet a gold deadline can be pretty devastating.

I think GAF can be an excellent place for good discussion and valuable feedback, but you really have to know how to take it. Those of thin skin wouldn't do well here.

 

[LX_Theo]

Which is of course not true at all.

Indiana Jones kills 9 people directly in Raiders of the lost ark. 21 in Temple of doom and 13 in the last crusade. And possibly 1 in crystal skull.

However Last Crusade was full of nazis and that's the only good thing about nazis - you can kill how many you like and noone will bat an eye.

And Temple of Doom was full of evil people, who enslaved children. That's almost on the level of child rapists. Noone will bat an eye about those either.

Drake however just kills all sorts of foreigners. And lots and lots of them. Not just 20 or so. No Nazis in Uncharted games. No people, who enslave children and rip hearts out of people. So it's not the same. Not at all.

Someone already beat you to it. "Before anyone suggests Indie doesn't kill that many people in the movies" indeed

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=142429510&postcount=51

 

[snoopeasystreet]

or that in action films the protagonist also murders tons of dudes. I don't know if the indiana jones death count is as high as a video game, but they definitely have battles and shoot lots of badguys and don't slow down to ponder what they've done. it's a light hearted adventure movie. neil is 100% right.

I responded to someone else earlier in the thread but my issue isn't with there being a high body count in AAA video games, it's that it's almost a given that AAA game will have a high body count.

 

[reminiscingLemon]

I don't know about "hate", but NeoGAF is largely populated by consumers who have no flying fuck about the realities of game development, publishing, financing, or really any major facet of production. Which I want to stress is fine, it's not any consumer's job to know any of that, but seeing threads calling out developers for being lazy when they probably just worked a 120 hour workweek just to meet a gold deadline can be pretty devastating.

I think GAF can be an excellent place for good discussion and valuable feedback, but you really have to know how to take it. Those of thin skin wouldn't do well here.

this is pretty spot on

 

[Jobbs]

I don't know about "hate", but NeoGAF is largely populated by consumers who have no flying fuck about the realities of game development, publishing, financing, or really any major facet of production. Which I want to stress is fine, it's not any consumer's job to know any of that, but seeing threads calling out developers for being lazy when they probably just worked a 130 hour workweek just to meet a gold deadline can be pretty devastating.

I think GAF can be an excellent place for good discussion and valuable feedback, but you really have to know how to take it. Those of thin skin wouldn't do well here.

I'd expand on that by saying that, while that may be true, it's simply true of people on the internet in general --- and in fact NeoGaf, as a whole, has a higher IQ and a higher standard of discussion than any other gaming forum I can think of due to its rules and that they are enforced.

 

[Arulan]

I'm not familiar with the discussion of this particular case on GAF, but I believe this video is relevant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZM2jXyvGOc&list=UUI3GAJaOTL1BoipG41OmfyA

It's basically a criticism on the over-reliance of violent gameplay to flesh out video games. There are many other forms of gameplay which could be explored, but the majority of video games do not explore them. Some are even under the assumption that they must include violent gameplay (such as shooting segments) for it to be accepted, even if it makes little to no sense within the context of said game.

 

[Manu]

BTW the crowd applauds when he says ignore NeoGAF. Come on we're not that bad are we?

Spoiler

Right?

Sometimes it's not hard to hate GAF.

 

[strafer]

Interesting, this lead me to see what else on youtube mentioned Gaf and came across this, about to watch while I sit down for some dinner

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhaNkHRF8pM

history of neogaf, interview with evillore, seems very informative

Why haven't I seen this before.

 

[BloodMoney]

just to sidestep the topic a bit, to anyone who wants a game that has conflict and battle and shooting enemies in it, but does it in a very restrained way with a relatively low body count, fucking play alien isolation. It may be my GOTY.

I keep eyeing it on steam... just don't have the time to sit down for that campaign at the moment. I expect its the kind of experience I need to play through night after night... not, piece meal a bit every week.

 

[Dawg]

Also do people really take it personally when others call out Gaf? I really like it here but it's not like some defining thing in my life.

My title wasn't meant in a negative way.

And I doubt Neil was really serious. He was just joking because of the hyperbole that tends to go around here.

 

[Superflat]

One thing I can't believe is how some people are taking Neil's statement seriously.

He's directly referenced GAF multiple times praising its community (the most recent being within the past 24 hours responding to his new meme) and when he gives a joke statement to tag at the end of his real answer, some people are actually offended LOL

 

[The Shogun]

Absolutely. I do take issue with him referencing gaf as a whole since the vast majority of us aren't batshit crazy

Yeah this is my only problem. I feel there is quite a bit of unwarranted negativity in general on GAF but a lot of us aren't. Hell even I from time to time get caught up in it

Spoiler

like the Witcher 3 thread.

But there's a hell of a lot of good here as well. I hope not all devs like to ignore us :-(

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Why is Druckmann calling out GAF ?

The majority of posters idealize his work and praise it to the heavens,probably more than it deserves anyway.

He gets worshipped around here and that's what GAF gets ?lol

Some other developers get truly destroyed here,Druckmann isn't one of them.

Jesus, he made a joke. Are you people seriously offended at that? I laughed my ass off.

Most of those games don't have the protagonist making jokes and laughing his ass off while murdering all of those people.

People keep saying that, but honestly, the only lines I remember Drake making during combat are "phew, okay...." or "shiiit" and "no no no nonono!". Compared to Lara's "oh noes poor deer I'm sorry " to "I'm coming for you all!" followed by "+20 XP BRUTAL BADASS EXECUTION", it's nowhere near close. Plus of course Uncharted doesn't take itself seriously.

And those people he murders, well, they're trying to kill Drake. He's just trying to kill them right back. I don't know why Uncharted gets singled out so much for this.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Rambo personally averaged 73 in the sequels, so not really.

So? The first film was unquestionably an action film with guns and yet it didn't have a huge death toll. Like I said on page 2, I couldn't care less how many people I mow down, but using Rambo as an example isn't a good one because it showed precisely the opposite.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Nowhere near the body counts from what I've heard. Granted I haven't played Uncharted, but any Ramboalike in gaming has more bodies dropped in two hours than most of those movies will have across a trilogy.

Shooting is the simplest way to engage a player in videogames. The simplest way to create a feeling of connection between player and character. This is why so many games rely on it.

What I find funny though, is even while poo-pooing GAF for having the opinion, they are actively redesigning the series to allow for someone to ignore wanton violence.

In the last rambo film 236 people die in 92mins lol.
Also people say that a lot of people don't die in certain movies but i wonder how many people die in builds .

 

[Stereogatari]

I was ready to be mad but the Uncharted man spoke well. Ludonarrative dissonance is a valid concept, but not with Uncharted. Drake does what he does and doesn't cry. Like Bond.

Squeamish Lara in TR 2013 is a better example of a character that doesn't play like her personality.

 

[LX_Theo]

My title wasn't meant in a negative way.

And I doubt Neil was really serious. He was just joking because of the hyperbole that tends to go around here.

Would be funny if you changed it to "quips" about NeoGAF.

 

[dugdug]

Wow the game industry really hates Neogaf ? why ?

I think a lot of industry people, including Druckmann, have a level of respect for this board as well. Its just unfortunate that, for every well-thought-out post, there are 5 posts full of hyperbolic guff.

Edit: I should say, that's every message board. But, there are a lot of really smart people on this board. Which is rare.

 

[Jinfash]

No lies detected.

 

[Hugstable]

My title wasn't meant in a negative way.

And I doubt Neil was really serious. He was just joking because of the hyperbole that tends to go around here.

All the conspiracy stuff around here has been getting really bad also. Plus all the downgrade talk and hating on games that are a year out has been quite ridiculous as well.

 

[Riposte]

Agree with what he said. Can we put this to bed now? Damn vocal minority getting GAF in trouble.

 

[MormaPope]

And honestly, videogames have taken over the role of 80's styled action movies, and in a lot ways its nice. Action movies nowadays just suck. The closest thing to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bozxgVQ9m0, in all media forms nowadays, is this: http://youtu.be/Zi_skxMwgos?t=3m54s.

 

[Phatcorns]

I just think the gunplay sucks. Otherwise, I could easily ignore the mass murdering.

 

[ShinMaruku]

I would not pay attention to neogaf too if I was a developer of accomplishment. It's a bunch of people who can't really articulate what they really want.

 

[Corto]

I let out a hearty laugh. And I agree with him as I already posted on some of the past threads about this subject. This wink-wink-nudge-nudge remark will have the effect though of poking the wasp nest.

 

[illmatic22]

Keep ignoring GAF is sage advice indeed.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

The Indy movies are also 2 hours long. Take their bodycounts in two hours and stretch it to 15 hours and it'll probably be similar.

I doubt it's anywhere close.

But again I haven't played Uncharted. But versus something like Dragon Age vs LotR. By hour 20 in DA I'm usually passing 1000 kills. Onscreen kills in the LotR trilogy in half the time are less than 20% of that. That's with the movie being partly about this huge insane war.

Violence is the simplest way to connect the player to the world. This is why so many games rely on it to such a large degree.

But more importantly I still find it hilarious that he's poo-pooing us for thinking this, while they are actively redesigning the series for just such a viewpoint.

 

[RDreamer]

Wow the game industry really hates Neogaf ? why ?

I don't think they all hate Neogaf. I mean I'm sure some do, but probably not all. You still can't focus on it, though. The thing is that NeoGAF is a bunch of really hardcore enthusiasts that don't really represent nearly a large degree of the actual gaming public. This goes for pretty much every industry, too. You can't focus on what the really hardcore enthusiasts are saying. It's good to listen to them, because they will pick up on some things, but they will overanalyze a lot of things.

It's the same thing in the industry I'm in too. The enthusiasts give great feedback, but at a certain point you'd be wasting so much resources listening to everything they say just to win them over when 99.9% of your customers do not give a rat's ass about those same things... or even possibly feel the opposite way.