in this thread, we throw poop and call it art
- Thread starter Terrell
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Psychotext
Member
Terrell said:
From the Sony earnings PDFs, broken down into both quarterly and full year results (taken from my spreadsheet which the earnings post is based on). R (Day) is the exchange rate given on the day of the earnings release to convert JPY into USD. $bn (C) is the calculated value based on the R (Day) exchange rate and $bn (R) is the reported value from the financial reports (they're the same in this case, but weren't always reported in dollars). The sums are the bottom are the quarterly values combined for a comparison with the reported / calculated full year values.
Code:
¥bn R (Day) $bn (C) $bn (R)
2006 Q1 -¥5.895 110.00 -$0.054 -$0.054
2006 Q2 ¥8.220 113.00 $0.073 $0.073
2006 Q3 ¥67.819 118.00 $0.575 $0.575
2006 Q4 -¥61.397 117.00 -$0.525 -$0.525
2006 FY ¥8.747 117.00 $0.075 $0.075
¥8.747 $0.069 $0.069
¥bn R (Day) $bn (C) $bn (R)
2007 Q1 -¥26.803 115.00 -$0.233 -$0.233
2007 Q2 -¥43.527 118.00 -$0.369 -$0.369
2007 Q3 -¥54.168 119.00 -$0.455 -$0.455
2007 Q4 -¥107.827 118.00 -$0.914 -$0.914
2007 FY -¥232.325 118.00 -$1.969 -$1.969
-¥232.325 -$1.971 -$1.971
¥bn R (Day) $bn (C) $bn (R)
2008 Q1 -¥29.206 123.00 -$0.237 -$0.237
2008 Q2 -¥96.686 115.00 -$0.841 -$0.841
2008 Q3 ¥12.922 114.00 $0.113 $0.113
2008 Q4 -¥11.515 100.00 -$0.115 -$0.115
2008 FY -¥124.485 100.00 -$1.245 -$1.245
-¥124.485 -$1.080 -$1.080But please... do tell me how wrong my figures are again.
OK, I mis-read the Q4 and didn't realize it was cumulative to all quarters. So they're just beginning to approach $4 billion in losses, not the $5.3 we previously listed. Still a bloody huge number, and have amended the OP to reflect this.Psychotext said:
Sorry, it's 4am here for me, a little woozy.
Petrae said:
:lol
you need to stop the meltdown, Sony Global is profitable company, that was not actually an question ever (looking at last 4 years, it was all profitable)... question was always that it should be more profitable and it should have stronger margins, thats why Stringer was brought in. Last year, Sony had 4 billion of Net Income.... 3 years before that it had around 1.1-1.5 billions of Net Income, each year.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
IIRC they are still in the hole a sizeable amount though (>10 bn).Forsete said:
Petrae said:
Agreed, the PS3 is in the Gamecube's position relative to market status and marketshare, but dismal market conditions provided with the fact that it is significantly more expensive and unprofitable as a machine due to manufacturing costs and the unnecessary complexity of its architecture hampering development parity with the 360 for 3rd parties and the mediocre software sales of 1st and 3rd party titles means that the PS3 really is in bad shape.
Even though the Gamecube had mediocre sales like the PS3, Nintendo was smart enough to make it cheap to produce, which meant that it was a profitable console. I hope both Sony and Microsoft can learn from what Nintendo has done these past two generations, as I think this will create a far more sustainable and profitable industry for all involved.
I don't think it would be a far stretch to say that even the Dreamcast as a machine may have been in a better position in terms of what could be done to improve its future prospects in terms of profitability than the PS3 is, but luckily the PS3 has the might of the Sony conglomerate on its side to keep it from sinking like a rock.
We all know what needs to be done, but I can't see any way that Sony can realistically rescue the PS3 from the position it has put itself in within a short timeframe (i.e. by Christmas this year).
Petrae
Member
spwolf said:
Hey, if I'm overreacting, that's fine... it's kind of hard not to when I've been through something like this once before. Hopefully nothing will happen and we'll still continue to see PS3 games for the foreseeable future.
Still, once you've been burned by something similar, you tend to wait for lightning to strike twice, you know?
Exactly.
Graphics Horse
Member
spwolf said:
I think he's concerned about the PS3, not Sony Global.
people need to realize that the playstation brand isn't just about making profits. the playstation brand helps keep the sony brand relevant. it's not like they can cut the playstation brand and have their other divisions just keep going on like nothing changed.
was the playstation brand tarnished? sure. was it ruined? not even close. is this a hard time for sony? definitely.
was the playstation brand tarnished? sure. was it ruined? not even close. is this a hard time for sony? definitely.
Private Hoffman
Banned
Zhuk said:
The PS3 has sold nearly as many PS3s in 2 years on the market at a pricepoint of $400-600 as the GameCube has in its entire lifetime at a price point of 199 and below.
I don't see how that's an apples to apples comparison with regard to relative position and marketstatus.
Obviously, GameCube was profitable, but I'm strictly talking about its position in the marketplace...and the PS3 is most certainly not the GameCube.
Graphics Horse said:
he is concerned that Sony PS3 is going bankrupt? Is it going to file Chapter 11?
I think perception was that Sony overall is in trouble, and it is in trouble, but not for operating at loss, but for not creating more profits which any investor expects.
It is silly to think Sony will go bankrupt with FY 2008 earning them 4 billion USD
I think SCE is just fine, this will mostly affect the ailing TV business and such. Think about it. The PS3 should be being sold for a profit sometime in 2009 per Kaz Hirai's statement, and the 45/45nm chipsets are starting to be made in February, per whoever made them (IBM?), anyhoo, with the PS3 being ready to sold at a profit, not too much is going to change in the gaming division. They may shutter some poorer performing studios (SCE Cambridge - PlayTV, BigBig - Pursuit Force, Bend - Syphon filter, and maybe Liverpool, depending on how well the PSP WipEout games have done). And given how the NBA franchise doesn't pull in 2K and Live numbers (never seen it in NPD, but have seen the others), that may get axed.
In all, games that didn't light up the charts by studios may be getting closed. I'm not saying these games didn't sell good, as we don't have numbers on them, but I think we can assume that these games aren't as big as a Resistance or Uncharted. I think this may be the extent of any cost-cutting matters in this division.
But I'm no analyst, so who knows if I'm right or wrong.
In all, games that didn't light up the charts by studios may be getting closed. I'm not saying these games didn't sell good, as we don't have numbers on them, but I think we can assume that these games aren't as big as a Resistance or Uncharted. I think this may be the extent of any cost-cutting matters in this division.
But I'm no analyst, so who knows if I'm right or wrong.
lastendconductor
Put your snobby liquids into my mouth!
Not surprising. Sony makes a shitload of stuff... seriously, is there any kind of electronic device that Sony doesn't produce?
In these times, it's better to have a tight and safe corporation, there's no room for wild expansionism. As for the gaming division being cut... I don't think so. After all they've lost these last two years, it'd be a really bad move to can all those projects. They should be seeing some profit, small but enough to keep that division alive. There will be probably lots of budget cuts, though.
In these times, it's better to have a tight and safe corporation, there's no room for wild expansionism. As for the gaming division being cut... I don't think so. After all they've lost these last two years, it'd be a really bad move to can all those projects. They should be seeing some profit, small but enough to keep that division alive. There will be probably lots of budget cuts, though.
Graphics Horse
Member
nib95 said:
It depends how you define at risk.
It sounds like parts of it are at risk of restructuring (with inevitable layoffs), but not the entire division.
I will say the same I said on the other thread.
If the games division is the one that is "bleeding" money they will sure do something to improve that, as I think, first party developers and maybe second will get it the first ones, maybe jobs on there or maybe less budget to work on.*
Please don't touch my psp2 sony, kthaxby
*This user knows nothing abouts business so this post could be totally wrong. I call it like I see it from a logical position of a normal human being, not a businessman. Thanks for reading.
If the games division is the one that is "bleeding" money they will sure do something to improve that, as I think, first party developers and maybe second will get it the first ones, maybe jobs on there or maybe less budget to work on.*
Please don't touch my psp2 sony, kthaxby
*This user knows nothing abouts business so this post could be totally wrong. I call it like I see it from a logical position of a normal human being, not a businessman. Thanks for reading.
Petrae
Member
spwolf said:he is concerned that Sony PS3 is going bankrupt? Is it going to file Chapter 11?
I think perception was that Sony overall is in trouble, and it is in trouble, but not for operating at loss, but for not creating more profits which any investor expects.
It is silly to think Sony will go bankrupt with FY 2008 earning them 4 billion USD
I'm concerned about waking up one morning to read that Sony is clearing out its PS3 stock and that the platform is dead well before this console generation reached its end... much like what happened with the Dreamcast nearly six years ago.
I just jumped on board the PS3 train last February and have spent a decent amount of cash between disc-based games, downloadable games, and DLC. Knowing that there'd be nothing new coming for it (versus new games continuing to arrive for the Xbox 360) would be a real kick in the nuts.
Private Hoffman said:
I would argue that Sony wishes it was in the shape that the Gamecube was right now, and that its market status and market share is similar to the Gamecube's position but not a mirror image nor would I allude to this rather my point was to compare and contrast the two consoles. Perhaps a point to consider, the more consoles that Nintendo sold the more money it made, with Sony the more consoles it has sold the worse off its finances are because of the loss made on every console even 2 whole years after launch.
This cannot be healthy or sustainable for any company, even one as mighty as Sony.
Private Hoffman said:
By comparing PS3 sales to GameCube sales, you're not talking about their positions in the marketplace. To do that, you would need to look at the percentage of the total hardware market, not just at the number of consoles sold. It's possible that console sales could be up significantly over the previous generation across the board.
Here we go again.
I've stated this a million times in the MS threads and now it's gonna be in the Sony threads.
Losses are not cumulative in the way I am perceiving people here understanding it. The loss is only per fiscal year -- that's the running total and once a new fiscal year starts, the loss counter resets at $0. (for the purposes of our discussion in this thread) So, but this virtue, the division isn't "approaching $4bn in debt" for these purposes, they're only as much in debt as they are in the current fiscal year.
That being said, "cumulative losses" are important to look at with respect to trend and severity of that trend. If the losses are getting smaller as time goes on, well, being in the red isn't a good thing, but it is an encouraging trend and means the, as the losses decrease quarter per quarter, any particular division's exposure to major restructuring is far more minimal than to other divisions who aren't trending upward or who are flat, but in the red. REGARDLESS OF HOW WELL OR BADLY THEY HAVE DONE YOY for however long you're looking at.
That being said, global economies are looking pretty crappy now and companies will look at ways to streamline operations to minimize losses/maximize profits in the months/quarters ahead. That's the reality, because there will be generally less revenue overall, liquidity will be lower because share prices are down, etc. Not because any particular division of any company is "in debt" because that concept does not apply in the discussion we are having.
so to recap... if I'm reading the numbers earlier in this thread right, the gaming division is consistently losing LESS money each quarter than the quarter which proceeded it. this indicates that the gaming division will be looked in a more positive light than a division who is not trending upwards. but again, let me caution and reiterate the previous paragraph, that does not mean the gaming division would be immune to cost cutting procedures to get it into profitability quicker. in addition, profitability also seems a bit harder to reach than before given the current economic climate.
I've stated this a million times in the MS threads and now it's gonna be in the Sony threads.
Losses are not cumulative in the way I am perceiving people here understanding it. The loss is only per fiscal year -- that's the running total and once a new fiscal year starts, the loss counter resets at $0. (for the purposes of our discussion in this thread) So, but this virtue, the division isn't "approaching $4bn in debt" for these purposes, they're only as much in debt as they are in the current fiscal year.
That being said, "cumulative losses" are important to look at with respect to trend and severity of that trend. If the losses are getting smaller as time goes on, well, being in the red isn't a good thing, but it is an encouraging trend and means the, as the losses decrease quarter per quarter, any particular division's exposure to major restructuring is far more minimal than to other divisions who aren't trending upward or who are flat, but in the red. REGARDLESS OF HOW WELL OR BADLY THEY HAVE DONE YOY for however long you're looking at.
That being said, global economies are looking pretty crappy now and companies will look at ways to streamline operations to minimize losses/maximize profits in the months/quarters ahead. That's the reality, because there will be generally less revenue overall, liquidity will be lower because share prices are down, etc. Not because any particular division of any company is "in debt" because that concept does not apply in the discussion we are having.
so to recap... if I'm reading the numbers earlier in this thread right, the gaming division is consistently losing LESS money each quarter than the quarter which proceeded it. this indicates that the gaming division will be looked in a more positive light than a division who is not trending upwards. but again, let me caution and reiterate the previous paragraph, that does not mean the gaming division would be immune to cost cutting procedures to get it into profitability quicker. in addition, profitability also seems a bit harder to reach than before given the current economic climate.
Actually their gaming division is one of the few that is still a potential money maker. It's been so successful in the past and has a strong brand label unlike a lot of their other ventures. It'll be one of the last on the chopping block. That said their future isn't looking so pretty.
Forsete
Member
xabre said:
Sony is mostly export, the American caused crash of the economics hits them hard. We see the same with companies within my own country that are exporting their goods (while the Krona was strong, it isnt anymore). However Sony is hit extra hard thanks to the strong Yen, this can be seen with many Japanese companies, the result is people being layed off.
I was just correcting you on the matter thinking all of Sony was making a loss, so thats the end of that.
Petrae
Member
Kadey said:
I think that can be said for the entire economic picture-- not just as it applies to Sony or to gaming in general. We'll see more job losses, more company closings, more foreclosures, and new lows on Wall Street. It's going to get worse before signals start to improve even slightly.
Graphics Horse
Member
arne said:
Unless it's been edited, It says losses in the OP, not debt. Edit: oh he says debt in another post, carry on
Gaming division is not at risk. Gaming division is not going anywhere. Restructuring ... maybe. Most companies today are going through restructuring plans.
SCE is part of SE. Its a division. The division is not doing well, thus the need to re-structure, re-org, and re-launch (if this happens). Same Sony ... but just a bit thinner.
SCE is NOT GOING ANYWHERE!
SCE is part of SE. Its a division. The division is not doing well, thus the need to re-structure, re-org, and re-launch (if this happens). Same Sony ... but just a bit thinner.
SCE is NOT GOING ANYWHERE!
The 1st cut that should be made is the millions handed over to the fuckwit ad agencies Sony persist with using who don't seem to understand that to sell a gaming system you need to show some of the fucking games!
Hire a monkey and i'm sure he will do a far better job....... oh wait he's already working for them on the store and he's also a fuckwit
Hire a monkey and i'm sure he will do a far better job....... oh wait he's already working for them on the store and he's also a fuckwit
Graphics Horse said:Unless it's been edited, It says losses in the OP, not debt. Edit: oh he says debt in another post, carry on
it's not even that, it's that seemingly everyone starts to take this notion of cumulative debt and run with it every time we have this discussion about any company. so even if the OP was correct, a good number of people will still be looking at the wrong things.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Things for SCE will get better and the cost cutting was started by Kutaragi and not Stringer, Ken already decided to pull back on the semiconductor manufacturing business as the transfer to Toshiba or Nagasaki and Oita's advanced shared assets was decided/negotiated when he still had full power.
I am not worried about PS4 or PSP2, with the headache of BIG R&D investments on their own manufacturing plants/semiconductor processes they will have to aim a little bit less high, but even Kutaragi knew that the R&D cost of keeping up the game of "design HUGE, massively process shrink/cost reduce yearly" could not be kept up by Sony (Sony != Intel) and was withdrawing from that development strategy. More (enhanced/customized) HW partnerships on the horizon and less custom design made by SCE/Sony.
Still, Stringer has been almost 4 years at the helm, and many of Sony corp. issues have not changed much or not changed for the better at all (I wonder how high the morale is or has been in up to today...)... Software development and rapid forward-looking decision planning (!= videogame titles development) was a known problem before Stringer came in and remains today...
Sony is now a "promise a lot... who knows when they will deliver..."... some of their products still carry that great classic PS feeling, like PlayTV (advanced, future looking, polished, well priced), others still disappoint also because they seem not to care one iota about user feedback or internal consistency... why the EU PSP PS Store allows you to search titles alphabetically while the EU PS3 PS Store still does not?
Remember when the EU PS Store was launched and some people complained about the nonsensical menus inconsistencies between the EU and US/JPN PS Stores (or the general lack of caching of icons across Store sessions) and that was covered under the "it just launched, give them time..." argument... was that fixed/changed/improved upon? No...
Their problem is not game making or HW design, their problem is spending billions upon billions each year in tons of markets and not being able to take advantage of them...
Their video market (PS Store) is late and still unavailable in many regions (EU would like it too, thanks)... what was the justification for being beaten to the punch by Microsoft (an OS+SW making company?)... you invest billions in Sony Pictures/Columbia + Sony BMG and you cannot even capitalize on that?
SCE has a lot of products with great promise and potential, but so far they are seemingly convincing users that they are more hype than substance... that the potential is there but Sony itself has no clue when it will get it to users or how... for the past two years (again not gaming and XMB functionality wise, IMHO they did deliver there) we have been hearing a lot of "we will do..." and the word "will do" without a date attached is becoming a bit tiring to hear... not the SCE I was used to see...
I am not worried about PS4 or PSP2, with the headache of BIG R&D investments on their own manufacturing plants/semiconductor processes they will have to aim a little bit less high, but even Kutaragi knew that the R&D cost of keeping up the game of "design HUGE, massively process shrink/cost reduce yearly" could not be kept up by Sony (Sony != Intel) and was withdrawing from that development strategy. More (enhanced/customized) HW partnerships on the horizon and less custom design made by SCE/Sony.
Still, Stringer has been almost 4 years at the helm, and many of Sony corp. issues have not changed much or not changed for the better at all (I wonder how high the morale is or has been in up to today...)... Software development and rapid forward-looking decision planning (!= videogame titles development) was a known problem before Stringer came in and remains today...
Sony is now a "promise a lot... who knows when they will deliver..."... some of their products still carry that great classic PS feeling, like PlayTV (advanced, future looking, polished, well priced), others still disappoint also because they seem not to care one iota about user feedback or internal consistency... why the EU PSP PS Store allows you to search titles alphabetically while the EU PS3 PS Store still does not?
Remember when the EU PS Store was launched and some people complained about the nonsensical menus inconsistencies between the EU and US/JPN PS Stores (or the general lack of caching of icons across Store sessions) and that was covered under the "it just launched, give them time..." argument... was that fixed/changed/improved upon? No...
Their problem is not game making or HW design, their problem is spending billions upon billions each year in tons of markets and not being able to take advantage of them...
Their video market (PS Store) is late and still unavailable in many regions (EU would like it too, thanks)... what was the justification for being beaten to the punch by Microsoft (an OS+SW making company?)... you invest billions in Sony Pictures/Columbia + Sony BMG and you cannot even capitalize on that?
SCE has a lot of products with great promise and potential, but so far they are seemingly convincing users that they are more hype than substance... that the potential is there but Sony itself has no clue when it will get it to users or how... for the past two years (again not gaming and XMB functionality wise, IMHO they did deliver there) we have been hearing a lot of "we will do..." and the word "will do" without a date attached is becoming a bit tiring to hear... not the SCE I was used to see...
xabre said:
Panasonic's profits are down 90% and Toyota made first ever loss. The strength of the yen is seriously hurting every Japanese company.
The yen has gained 40% in the last few months compared to the dollar/euro wiping out huge portion of every profit and amplifying every loss.
Hwang Seong-Gyeong
Banned
Only thing that I think will happen is they'll cut first party spending, and not lower the price of the PS3 anytime soon.
That's all it means for gaming IMO. Also I suspect they'll cancel financially non viable games like the new Team Ico game, you heard it here first.
That's all it means for gaming IMO. Also I suspect they'll cancel financially non viable games like the new Team Ico game, you heard it here first.
Panajev2001a said:
The problem with video store launching in Europe is all to do with licensing and classification of films for all countries in the EU.
Films were released and licensed by totally different companies in each EU country and trying to get this sorted for every release is logistal head-ache. Then the films have to be classified into age group and accessed by the film censor in each EU country.
Its a huge undertaking, nowhere as easy as releasing films on US PSN store.