Super Smash Bros. for Wii U |OT| True Potential of Smash Bros.

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Great games, Vena!

I have to go now. Nice Ike. I used to play him a lot in Brawl. I wish they didn't get rid of his little slid he used get off his special side b in he's just a little off the ground.
 
Wow.

I actually beat Fitness Junkies on hard mode in under 45 seconds...

Only took a million tries. What a frustrating event. Doesn't help that I stink with Wii Fit Trainer.

So far I've beaten every event with every reward, but I'm still missing characters for the secret paths.
 
Geg said:
Heh, this guy seems to be having a lot of the same problems I did. It's just really hard to land a kill move once you've racked up enough damage, especially when you're at higher percentages and getting juggled around by enemy attacks. It really seems to come down to luck in a lot of ways.

And yeah, no customizations in All-Star mode. It would be a whole lot easier if you could
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I'm having trouble with that one too. I'm just not that good with DHD. All-stars is far easier with heavy hitters like ganondorf and bowser, and very punishing for characters that rack damage up at the expense of launching power.
 
Rash said:
Wow.

I actually beat Fitness Junkies on hard mode in under 45 seconds...

Only took a million tries. What a frustrating event. Doesn't help that I stink with Wii Fit Trainer.

So far I've beaten every event with every reward, but I'm still missing characters for the secret paths.
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I think I beat that one in 18 seconds. Did you do it right?
 
From a Sakurai interview with Famitsu magazine:

-Famitsu: In the future, do you plan on adjusting or balancing the game further through a patch?

-Sakurai: We don't have any such plans, but at the very least we will be working on a few things connected to the online play experience, bit by bit.

If we were to do something like tweak characters' customized special moves, then there'd be no end to it. But with that said, if there are any glaring issues, we may address them.
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Sakurai... ;_; i had hope :p

edit: i just read about it. I don't know if it was already discussed here or not.
 
Also are there any major differences in Master Fortress between level 9 and 8, like increased health or speed of the enemies or anything? I can beat Master Core/Fortress pretty reliably on level 8.5 without customizations, it's just getting there without being knocked down from level 9 to 8.5 is the main problem
 
Tripon said:
Well, they already took out Vectoring and DACUS. Who knows what Sakurai thinks are 'minor changes'.
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Minor changes from Sakurai's perspective are probably the same from any casual gamer's. A friend had no idea what DACUS was before the patch. When it was removed, it didn't affect him at all. Minor. I'd expect more of these sorts of tweaks in the future.

Major to others.
 
egruntz said:
Minor changes from Sakurai's perspective are probably the same from any casual gamer's. A friend had no idea what DACUS was before the patch. When it was removed, it didn't affect him at all. Minor. I'd expect more of these sorts of tweaks in the future.

Major to others.
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Well, if this is true, then there will be some sort of balance patch then.
 
ec0ec0 said:
yeah, but it seems like the game is going to stay how it is now. Not big changes. Only little things.
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Diddy doesn't need major changes, at most a tweak on his d-throw. I still don't really believe he even needs much in the way of changes. Diddy has a true-combo, Ness has a back-throw that will kill at modicum of percents, does that need to be nerfed too? Or his fair true-combo?

Fuck, if my Ike can avoid getting three-stocked by egruntz's Diddy then I think we're safe. And I'm competitively bad at the game. :P
 
If you thought Jigglypuff's Melee bair hitbox or Snake's up tilt hitbox were crazy, allow me to present to you...


JyMijeo.gif


KIRBY SMASH 64 UP TILT
 
Vena said:
Diddy doesn't need major changes, at most a tweak on his d-throw. I still don't really believe he even needs much in the way of changes. Diddy has a true-combo, Ness has a back-throw that will kill at modicum of percents, does that need to be nerfed too? Or his fair true-combo?

Fuck, if my Ike can avoid getting three-stocked by egruntz's Diddy then I think we're safe. And I'm competitively bad at the game. :P
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I pretty much agree, although I suppose that's not saying much, since I'm a Diddy main. I'd make the argument that Diddy was stronger in Brawl. Having two bananas allowed him such ridiculous stage control and chaining opportunities, it was ridiculous. In Smash 4, Diddy is very good, but I don't think he's quite as overpowered as some are making him out to be. The game is still young, and we won't be seeing some characters reach their full potential until years to come.

The true combo itself isn't that bad. I'd personally tweak it a bit by having it kill 10 to 15% later than what it does, but I wouldn't change that it directly links into itself. His F-Air is more of an annoyance, I think. Great priority, auto-cancels, very strong launch power. But I'm no game designer, so I really don't know what aspects should be hit and which ones shouldn't. But I will say that just cause something is a true combo doesn't make it broken. Ness and Zero Suit Samus both have true combos. They're great characters, but they're not overpowered.

Kay, had my schpeel.

Wanna play Vena? ^_^
 
Archon473 said:
I began playing Super Smash Bros. for Wii U with the mentality of a SSB Melee player. I wanted total control. I wanted limitless potential for movement and attack. I have deep understanding of Melee's system mechanics, rules, and character abilities. Having ignored SSB Brawl and seen little current footage of the Wii U iteration, I began playing SSBU with a clean slate.

Immediately, I recognized the advanced techniques from Melee requiring high execution had been implemented in SSBU mechanically. Air Dodging in place is present but air dodging in a direction does not exist (neither does wavedashing, as a result). However, momentum from side jumping and short hopping is maintained while air dodging. Secondly, landing recovery is essentially immediate for many neutral, forward, and backward air attacks. Landing after an air dodge requires recovery, but this can be replaced by attacking out of a dodge. Gone is the need to L-cancel or shield-cancel your aerials. Incidentally, gone is the ability to cancel spikes, meteors, and other heavy air attacks. I feel this system change is ultimately for the better. L-Cancelling was admittedly an executional burden on many characters that compensated for attack risk with executional reward. Smash U makes it so fast aerials recover quickly or instantly and heavier air attacks like spikes and meteors carry an acceptable level of risk related to application. I notice this trend across the board in Smash U.

Ground movement is fast and offers variations on advancing and retreating. Dashes can be cancelled consecutively, and holding a dash translates into running. Turning during a run or after a dash requires much recovery, so cancelling a dash into another in the opposite direction (pivoting) offers an executional workaround. Your character travels slightly forward while recovering in place allowing you to attack as though your were neutral. Dashing and attacking out of the turnaround animation allows a side smash attack, side tilt attack, or grab to be performed immediately. If you are against a ledge, you can use this to dash around an opponent and attack facing him.

Note, though, the limits on attack options from each of these movements. Dashing does not allow one to shield or attack until recovery. Pivoting maintains character control but does not offer as much side movement as dashing. Running attacks are disadvantaged on block and punishable on whiff. Jumps and short hops must meet a height requirement before air attacks may be initiated. Wavedashing in Melee gave us ability to advanced toward our opponent while orienting our character for back tilts, down tilts, or attacks that hit behind-the-back such as Fox's up tilt. I have yet to discover such a technique in SSBU, although combining dashing and pivoting comes close.

This is the trend I mentioned earlier - execution being levied for risk. In Melee, dance-dashing (repeatedly pivoting in place) cancelled the turnaround animation and allowed players to start running in either direction. Dash-dancing is unnecessary in Smash U because I can dash in either direction from a standstill. I do not need to wavedash out of a run; instead, I should dash infinitely or pivot to create attack options. I do not need to L-Cancel aerials because most recover quickly. What players need to learn is proper implementation of movement and attack. I want to advance toward my opponent and access all my ground attacks, but perhaps that is not an option. Perhaps I should walk and not commit to a dash if I want to down tilt. Perhaps I need to reevaluate my air strategy as many attacks hold heavy recovery while many ground anti-air attacks have improved hitboxes and greater launch value.

Melee's ground game is incredibly vulnerable without the advanced techniques and favors the air game in conjunction. Smash U takes an approach to remove the execution demands on the player and weight the ground game and air game with appropriate risk. I believe these restrictions were designed not to remove control from the player (though they did) but to balance the ground, air, and ledge game in Smash U.

Speaking of the ledge game, the distance from which characters will grab ledges is incredible. It will look like you fell short and your character will latch. Characters will grab ledges even when facing the opposite way. Characters can climb, attack, jump, and roll onto platforms from a ledge. Characters may drop from a ledge hang, but this is where the primary change occurs. Releasing a ledge prevents you from grabbing that same ledge immediately, and doing so does not grant invulnerability as it did when grabbing that ledge the first time. Vulnerable hanging characters cannot hog ledges as in previous Smash titles. Characters attempting to recover will replace the ledge-hanging character. These changes leave no advantage to players guarding an edge, however the improved combo system does recovering characters no favors.

This is where I see balance between the three stages of a Smash match. The ground game is tense and neutral. The air game has its strengths and weaknesses. More attacks juggle opponents into the air and off the ground. It is possible to combo for large percent, to carry opponents across stages, to combo opponents off edges and for the bold to follow them off edges to assure KOs. Scoring KOs on every side of the screen is all about commitment and follow through. Make no mistake, Smash U requires precision and foresight to achieve victory.

Never mind the structure of matches in Melee. Look at Smash U on its own and recognize that with a less advantageous air game, the ground game becomes equally important. Look at how restrictions on movement require greater commitment to movement. Look at how attack recovery requires knowledge of attack application. Available options will be poor choices and rich options will be unavailable due to previous decisions. I believe they have maintained the speed of tournament Smash Bros. matches while shifting the strategic trends. This game is not a strategic sequel to Melee. It falls somewhere between that and Smash 64. Our brandishing of pitchforks was out of fear that the simplification of techniques would remove control. I argue that Smash U is a new game, and we are foolish to think strategic trends should translate from games familiar. Fighting games require effort on our end, the players. With this understanding comes enlightenment (and a God's powers ;).

Further brief thoughts:
http://youtu.be/Uzv-fmiTH_M - Advanced movement guide that set my mind at ease.
http://youtu.be/eNw5i5mSCy4 - Introduced me to RAR, a Brawl technique made important with SSBUs movement options, dash-cancelled grabs, and toss cancelling.
http://youtu.be/YPQEaQmLGl0 - Older version of the above video again discussing RARs as well as Air Dodge Aerials
http://youtu.be/VmDkNkNPWYY - Talks in-depth about cancelling air dodges into aerials
http://youtu.be/iZPxLLaL4N8 - Highlights another element of launching properties
http://youtu.be/bSp885AxZss - Reports of C-Stick limits are greatly exaggerated. Jump as you please but return the directional stick to neutral before attacking with the C-Stick. Then, return the C-Stick to neutral if you wish to influence aerial movement. Returning to neutral resets command inputs in nearly all fighting games and is among the most important skills to learn if you want high level execution. In the case of Smash U, RARs allow forward advancing back airs. Backward falling forward airs are possible and really, a turnaround tilt or smash might be more advantageous because it keeps you on the ground. Evaluate your gameplan constantly and discard what does not work.

Until next time, folks...
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You must teach me your ways.
 
Vena said:
Diddy doesn't need major changes, at most a tweak on his d-throw. I still don't really believe he even needs much in the way of changes. Diddy has a true-combo, Ness has a back-throw that will kill at modicum of percents, does that need to be nerfed too? Or his fair true-combo?

Fuck, if my Ike can avoid getting three-stocked by egruntz's Diddy then I think we're safe. And I'm competitively bad at the game. :P
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The only reason Diddy is considered so strong in this game is because he can actually *gasp* kill at reasonable percentages!

If anything, everyone should be buffed to Diddy's level and have reliable moves that can kill at 80-90%. Instead, Sakurai will probably nerf the fuck out of his down air, not allowing it to combo into any other moves. And his up air now kills at 140%.
 
Anth0ny said:
The only reason Diddy is considered so strong in this game is because he can actually *gasp* kill at reasonable percentages!

If anything, everyone should be buffed to Diddy's level and have reliable moves that can kill at 80-90%. Instead, Sakurai will probably nerf the fuck out of his down air, not allowing it to combo into any other moves. And his up air now kills at 140%.
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Plenty of characters can kill early, problem is that people just stare at Diddy front and center. This is accentuated by the fact that Sheik is another front stay that has zero kill potential, so the disparity between them is huge and apparent. That's why we have this narrative... and M2K/Zero's comments on the matter and use of the character.

Fucking DK and Shulk were in a finals.
 
Also, I agree with Anthony that throw into kill move should be a standard, not a problem. Playing Pikachu would be so much less painful if up throw always combod into Thunder.
 
Karsticles said:
Also, I agree with Anthony that throw into kill move should be a standard, not a problem. Playing Pikachu would be so much less painful if up throw always combod into Thunder.
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I dunno, I kind of like that you need to work to make that happen. Successfully landing an up throw -> meteor spiked by cloud -> Thunder kill is probably the most satisfying thing about playing as Pikachu
 
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