Legend of Korra Book 4: Balance |OT| A Feast of Crows
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I would think that most endings are better since they offer a fair degree of closure for the world and most of the characters, even if in some cases it is improperly done.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
None of any of it would have happened if Wan hadn't decided to free Vaatu in the first place.
I think we should put aside any negative feelings we might have. I'm 100% sure that no one here thinks that anyone is actually homophobic. I'm 100% sure, no one here has malicious/negative intentions.
But I think, we should have some understanding to the delicate sensitivity of the discussion. For a lot of gay people (or people that have wanted gay characters in media represented), there has been a lot of ignorance, homophobia, hatred pushed against it. It's a long history of abuse.
And so, because of that, there is going to be that element of SOME people being against it, because of those things. Because there has been a long history of people doing that very thing. And there is also going to be people that are sensitive, because when they finally did get a gay romance, people are saying it's not, or it wasn't written well. BUT...that does not mean you can't be against this, without being homophobic. I think that idea should just be dropped now. I mean really, unless someone in this thread has actually been malicious and said something terrible, I don't think it's far to make that assertion.
Fact is, we might not agree on this. But I think we should just respect that our opinions are different, even if the subject is a very sensitive one.
Also, you can take the opinion that this wasn't well written, or you didn't think it worked, or that you didn't feel it was organic. And have that opinion, without trying to be man or hurtful to others, who have really wanted this for a long time. Or who really think it was a great plot that was well done. I'm pretty sure those that didn't like it, are NOT trying to be malicious, and are NOT trying to make you feel bad.
At least, I hope not. I hope everyone in here can take a step back, take a breather. And consider the overall context of this. Consider others feelings. Consider the history of all this. It's again fine, to have your opinion that the plot didn't work well. It's fine to have your opinion that you think it was forced.
EDIT: I guess some people take the view that, Bryke was just pandering to the shippers. I guess I can understand how that view point would be touchy. It's hard to say with creators, if they are ever just pandering or if they are genuine. How could you know?
And as I said in my earlier post, we also have that X factor of creators getting network pushback. And being forced to be censored. So I just feel there is like TOO MANY outside factors here at play, that kind of make t his hard to have a straight forward discussion.
But I think, we should have some understanding to the delicate sensitivity of the discussion. For a lot of gay people (or people that have wanted gay characters in media represented), there has been a lot of ignorance, homophobia, hatred pushed against it. It's a long history of abuse.
And so, because of that, there is going to be that element of SOME people being against it, because of those things. Because there has been a long history of people doing that very thing. And there is also going to be people that are sensitive, because when they finally did get a gay romance, people are saying it's not, or it wasn't written well. BUT...that does not mean you can't be against this, without being homophobic. I think that idea should just be dropped now. I mean really, unless someone in this thread has actually been malicious and said something terrible, I don't think it's far to make that assertion.
Fact is, we might not agree on this. But I think we should just respect that our opinions are different, even if the subject is a very sensitive one.
Also, you can take the opinion that this wasn't well written, or you didn't think it worked, or that you didn't feel it was organic. And have that opinion, without trying to be man or hurtful to others, who have really wanted this for a long time. Or who really think it was a great plot that was well done. I'm pretty sure those that didn't like it, are NOT trying to be malicious, and are NOT trying to make you feel bad.
At least, I hope not. I hope everyone in here can take a step back, take a breather. And consider the overall context of this. Consider others feelings. Consider the history of all this. It's again fine, to have your opinion that the plot didn't work well. It's fine to have your opinion that you think it was forced.
EDIT: I guess some people take the view that, Bryke was just pandering to the shippers. I guess I can understand how that view point would be touchy. It's hard to say with creators, if they are ever just pandering or if they are genuine. How could you know?
And as I said in my earlier post, we also have that X factor of creators getting network pushback. And being forced to be censored. So I just feel there is like TOO MANY outside factors here at play, that kind of make t his hard to have a straight forward discussion.
Every character in Naruto got closure and we were told what happened to them, etc. With Korra we really don't see any of that.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
I'll agree to this.
Korrasami happened, its canon, its great for the representation of homosexual relationships in "kid's" shows, its time to move on.
Yeah, we saw what all the characters did with their lives, who they married as well as how their children act.
Despite feeling rushed and having some loose ends, at least I got to see how all the characters turned out.
I can agree with that. We really have no idea what happened to anyone outside of Korra and Asami, and oh Zhu Li and Varrick. I don't mind not knowing, but it would have been nice.
Eh.....I don't think we need to know what happened to characters in that specific detail, but at least know their future plans.
CreeperBlocks
Banned
Korra and Asami is basicly Sasuke and Sakura again but under different circumstances
Yeah. I liked Korrasami. I've come around to it. But I think the ending itself was terrible. Like even if you think Korra and Asami's relationship was well done, their relationship was not as fleshed out or as important as an overall story arc (it was a side arc pushed to the back)...for it to be THE END of the show.
Katara + Aang made sense. It was the end of their journey. IT was the emotional pay off to a long lasting arc, that was around since Book 1. It had more implications then simply their romance plot. And also, Bryke had let us say goodbye to the main cast prior, by having just the right amount of resolution/closure and time to say goodbye to the people that mattered and the relationships they had built.
I think because bryke had done such a bad job with relationships in this show, it made it hard to have an ending that celebrated those relationships. Because, there wasn't much there to begin with.
The ending between ATLA and TLOK is stark. In ATLA, you felt like the entire gaang had been through an emotional journey together. They had grown together as friends, as lovers, as family. Each character had their own arc that they eventually conquered. But they also had a shared arc...their relationships.
Korra ending with just Korra and Asami going off on vacation, kind of sums up the drastic difference between the two shows. This show as about Korra, and not others. And that's fine. But I think because they did such a poor job with Korra and her arc in Book 4 (and I would say her plot was mishandled even in Book 2)....it was just a strange and unsatisfying way to end the show.
But then again, how else could they have ended it? Because they had like dropped the ball prior to building up characters, and building up their relationships so it was their journey, you really couldn't have that ending. It wasn't there. So this ended with Korra. But....I wasn't satisfied with Korra's resolution, or what the show basically had to say about her conclusion of her arc. It felt very, confused and unsure.
Mr Fahrenheit
Member
But I'm not arguing that it happened, I'm saying it was a bad way to end the show.
Yes, but you said "I'm getting the feeling that unless you accept Korrasami in all ways, that all it's fans will consider you homophobic." pulling all fans of Korrasami over one comb. Get to people on occasional basis. What I say is not necessary the opinion of anyone else that likes Korrasami and vice versa. I have a problem with you just deciding that there is a organized front for that shipping. Stay with getting to individual persons or say something against people who use certain arguments.
Seems petty, but I all front shit starts with small things like this.
I don't think anyone will disagree there
They dropped the ball so badly over the four seasons that it's probably the best way they could have ended it lol. So much wasted potential.
Shipping in TLOK was pretty awful. They were shipping and reading into things between Korra and Asami back in Book 1. Shippers are a pretty big chunk of any fandmom, and are persistent and annoying. It also seems that Bryke has been pretty active listening to it (it does make you wonder, how much influence they had on their writing). Hell, most of us assumed the stuff with Korra and Asami in Book 4 was just shipper fuel (ie. they were just giving fans a tease). Like..I would say even those that wanted Korrasami, also thought that. It wasn't until the actual end, that people looked back and said, hey...yeah, that was genuine. It wasn't just a tease.
That said, I don't think it's ever fair to assume someone is just a "shipper". Someone only liked it, because it fit their ship. Someone is ignoring the bad aspects of a plot, because they are a shipper.
That is just as bad of an opinion to have. I mean, you can have it. But come on. These are your friends on GAF. People that are here right now. Trying to have a conversation. Give them some respect, and don't assume they are just mindless and looking past certain things. Some people think the relationship was well done. Some people think the plot was well written. Even if they wanted them together, that doesn't mean they are ignoring bad writing (because to them, there was no bad writing).
so I am slow to respond and someone else might have already said this but...
the costs shouldn't be that high, most of the raw materials are still there, they just need some help from the earth kingdom to send a bunch of earth benders to reshape the materials back into buildings as stone/rock are all earth and easily bent by most benders.
I didn't mind it
I would rank them
season 3 > season 4 > season 1 > season 2.
if korra wasn't such a horrible character in general in the first season it would be rated higher than 4, but having a likeable main character and a decent plot trumps a horrible main character and a slightly better than decent plot for me.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I think this is probably a legitimate point which deserves considering. I have no doubt Nick would have tried to crush a more fully-fleshed romance between two characters of the same sex; which means to get any portrayal of same sex relationships, you have no path but to portray fairly shallow ones - it's whatever you can get around the censors. If that was the case, I'd feel a lot more sympathetic towards the ending of Korra - it wasn't bad writing because the authors were bad writers, but because the network made them write it. I'd rather have bad portrayals than no portrayals at all, because it's important for young LGBT+ individuals they can see similar role models in media.
However, I doubt this was the case. Given the context of all the other bad writing in the finale - the fact that Bataar's betrayal was totally meaningless because the two levers didn't shut down anything, the fact that Asami's only reason to be involved was so we could have an emotionally exploitative scene where her dad dies, the fact that Mako and Bolin went immensely plot-stupid in trying to destroy something that by past evidence really should have levelled the entire city if tampered with, the fact that someone literally forgave Hitler because she got bullied, and not doubt many of the other excruciatingly bad pieces of writing I've forgotten, I feel unwilling to give the writers credit. I doubt they were scared of Nick, I just feel like they're poor writers. And that's harmful for LGBT+ people, because if the only relationships they are written in are poorly thought out ones with no depth but instead only done 'for the shippers' it feels grossly exploitative - LGBT+ relationships become just another way of pleasing the largely heterosexual shipping fanbase rather than genuine attempts at portraying LGBT+ people.
As an episode, the finale was good. As an overall ending to a series, it was pretty awful. I think even as an ending to a season, it was bad (mostly because, the season as a whole, didn't have any significant plot, and the finale itself really didn't have anything to say, and didn't really conclude anything).
But purely in terms of pacing, action and enjoyment. I would say the Book 4 finale was quite good. Way better than Book 1 and 2's finale. Book 2's finale had a much better plot, but the pacing/action and just the way it was executed was atrocious.
WrenchNinja
Member
You wouldn't really be able to tell based on critic reviews.
Ahh...Season 3. Such wasted season. I remember thinking we're going to see how Fire Nation fare in present times with the adventure setting they got going.
They even threw in Zuko for good measure.
But nope!! Let's dedicate 2 episodes to Kai and the rest of the season in Earth Kingdom.
Hmmm. Could they have done a better job within the limitations they probably had (assuming they did in fact get Network push back)....I dunno. That's something we could question. WHAT could they have done better, without getting told NO by the networks.
Adventure Time recently got censored by the networks, who put their foot down and made them not write/show a gay romance. So clearly it's still a thing. And also, this was a main protagonist, to a pretty popular and well known show. SO....I think pushback was very likely (personally).
Keep in mind, Book 3 and 4 were written with the assumption that it was still going to air on TV. And it still had to be approved by Nick. By the time Korra got pulled, I think Book 4 had already been written (because it was written around the time of Book 3, and Book 3 got pulled after it had mostly finished production).
So timeline wise, I do not think Bryke would have known they were no longer on TV, and thus could get away with being more risky. And even if that isn't true, because it's still on Nick.com, and the network would still have to worry about the outcry it would get from parents/families. And Nick is in the business of family entertainment. So even if it was online only, I still think Nick would have had pressure on them. And they had the rights to deny anything they wrote (as they are the ones putting it out and distributing it).
But yeah, knowing all this (and assuming that pushback did happen)...
Could Bryke still have done a better job within their limitations? I don't know.
But I can agree that, in general their writing has been awful for characters and relationships. Asami was the most mis-managed and underused character in the series. I always found the relationship with Korra (them being best friends) to feel kind of jarring...and it didn't make sense.
To me it didn't make sense, because I had no idea why Asami would even want to be friends with this group. She never reacted to Korra stealing her boyfriend. She never reacted to Mako cheating on her. They never had her have any emotions or react to these things. And as soon as Korra got dumped, Asami was quick to want to jump back and be with Mako (thus showing us she was really in love, and really wanted him).
So then that transition of Mako and her breaking up again, because of Korra (and her not reacting or being effected again by this toxic friendship with this group). And then her and Korra becoming best buds just on the fly. Yeah that felt really weird and rocky to me. But after a certain point, you just accepted okay, they are best friends. And from there, they just established that plot of them getting closer and closer. The whole thing was certainly sloppy.
likely? hell I am surprised they even managed to get them to hold hands in the end.
the network heads of children's stations still feel in general that showing romantic feelings between two characters of the same gender is equally on par if not worse then showing graphic sex scenes, graphic violence, or heck even death in general.
Korra having a character have the air sucked out of her and killed on screen... ok but pushing it.
Korra being bisexual... OH WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN :/
JadedWriter
Member
It's very very very easy to picture Tenzin just simply poking a hole in that door.The conversation in this thread is getting too personal and serious for my liking. Time to lighten up the mood,
Hu, I watched the finale, liked it, then came in here, then I soured on it a bit, then went and watched it again, then loved it again.
Then I'm back here, and now I soured on this thread. ha! (joking)
I think I'll re-watch Book 4 now, with no expectations, watch it for what it's for, and I'll enjoy it. Yeah, some things could've been done better, but I'm finding cool details that I missed before that are making me appreciate the season more.
Like this tidbit about Varrick's horse:
Naga was at the end with Asami and Korra. I was kind of angry that Naga was pushed aside at the finale, so I was glad that she was with Korra in that scene after I saw it once more:
(Not saying this makes the finale a gazillion times better, but cool nonetheless)
Then I'm back here, and now I soured on this thread. ha! (joking)
I think I'll re-watch Book 4 now, with no expectations, watch it for what it's for, and I'll enjoy it. Yeah, some things could've been done better, but I'm finding cool details that I missed before that are making me appreciate the season more.
Like this tidbit about Varrick's horse:
Naga was at the end with Asami and Korra. I was kind of angry that Naga was pushed aside at the finale, so I was glad that she was with Korra in that scene after I saw it once more:
(Not saying this makes the finale a gazillion times better, but cool nonetheless)
Hu, I watched the finale, liked it, then came in here, then I soured on it a bit, then went and watched it again, then loved it again.
Then I'm back here, and now I soured on this thread. ha!
I think I'll re-watch Book 4 now, with no expectations, watch it for what it's for, and I'll enjoy it. Yeah, some things could've been done better, but I'm finding cool details that I missed before that are making me appreciate the season more.
Like this tidbit about Varrick's horse:
Naga was at the end with Asami and Korra. I was kind of angry that Naga was pushed aside at the finale, so I was glad that she was with Korra in that scene after I saw it once more:
(Not saying this makes the finale a gazillion times better, but cool nonetheless)
Same. Well not on being soured. But I've re-watched the finale 3 times. I think as a 44 min episode, it was fine. It was fun. Well paced. Action set pieces were cool.
It's just the plot sucked, and really there wasn't a lot of emotion or impact in it. IT was missing the emotional weight/pay off. I think it was a really shitty ending for the entire series. But just as a stand alone episode, it was good. I enjoyed it! But I can't help but be let down, that ultimately it had nothing to say. It was such a vanilla/non fussed ending when all is said and done.
Was still enjoyable, and a good 2 part episode. But where was the resolution? The conclusion? Where was the themes? It felt very rushed and like it was out of wind. Also, Kuvira being the main conflict (when she was a half-baked villain) really didn't help the episodes. Like the entire action was missing that weight behind it. IMO it lacked tension and emotion because Kuvira was so one note, and no one cared about her or what she was doing.
But physically, the action set pieces were fun. And they did a good job using all the characters in an action sense. So in terms of pacing and just the overall direction, really great. The more I re-watch it, the more I'm finding myself liking it as an episode. Just not as an ending.
BKatastrophe
Member
You're really making me want to do a series rewatch though oddly it got to a point where I stopped watching at season 6, don't ask me why. I actually did like season 5 though. Good villain and Dawn's character didn't even seem shoehorned in either given what she was. I guess with season 4 something just felt off about it. I don't know if it was the fact that it came after season 3, or I wasn't old enough to get the themes of it at the time. Season 7 was a bit weird, but could've been worse. Funny part is that after Firefly ended Whedon just gave that cast work as either a Buffy or Angel villain, except Summer GlauAll memorable villains though.
Summer Glau was in an episode of Season 3 of Angel called Waiting in the Wings. She was a ballerina that was cursed to repeat the same dance over and over by a warlock that was pissed she didn't love him back.
Also, I looked at the list of S4 episodes on the wiki, and honestly there are quite a bit of good episodes in there, but I think what kills that season is the pacing. Like, it feels so inconsistent. Slow and awkward, very character driven, yet plot heavy. The Initiative, though, could have been so much better. I also never liked Adam. He's boring as shit, which is weird considering he is one of the most potentially powerful beings in the Buffyverse considering his ability to just evolve constantly. He probably could have been as strong as Glory and Illyria.
Ya thats where I am too. Feels so weird to me, like its "empty enjoyment" or something.
JadedWriter
Member
Don't worry I knew that was her. I was just talking about how Gina Torres, Adam Baldwin and Nathan Fillion got to be villains. I would've loved seeing Glau as a villain since I thought she was great on The Sarah Connor Chronicles.
I forget how cheap it must be for construction projects with earth and metal benders, bending really does break a lot of conventional rules in the world >.>
I appreciate the response
I think this title is the best: AvatarGAF (ATLA/Korra)
WrenchNinja
Member
Azula and Omikaru, when is the new thread going up and when are we starting the community rewatch?
SilentMatthew
Member
I think once we had only 5-7 episodes left of season 4, no one should have actually expected a good/well written ending. Hoped for it would happen nevertheless. I am not sure what closure to the characters we could've had since this finale season starts off in a time-skip. Everyone has moved on with their lives except for Korra and the focus of this season reflected that with some scenes with that "Good Hitler" for "tension" and shite. Questionable writing in toll.
Anyways here's a vocal of "Lost My Heart In Republic City" from that person that does those Disney covers/Avatar :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etb0xDIFXR4
It's... nice, but I'm not digging the vocal recording of it.
Edit: My vote is for AvatarGAF (ATLA/Korra)
Anyways here's a vocal of "Lost My Heart In Republic City" from that person that does those Disney covers/Avatar :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etb0xDIFXR4
It's... nice, but I'm not digging the vocal recording of it.
Edit: My vote is for AvatarGAF (ATLA/Korra)
I believe the original plan was January, but since this thread is hurtling towards 20,000 posts a lot quicker than I thought it would it'll have to be moved forward. Unless we want to make a Book 4 OT2 (which strikes me as silly since the show is now over), then hopefully we have something ready for when that time comes. It may be a bit barebones, but we'll build on it over the coming weeks. The main things we need is a thread, some basic info about the show and info on the community rewatch. I have a few other plans for the community thread because we all seem to get along so well, but a lot of the finer details will have to wait out for the new year.
I just hope you lot don't max out this thread tonight. I'm busy tonight.
Not sure tbh. Should be soon. I originally wanted to give this thread a week after the finale, so people could get their feelings out on the finale. And the fact is, some fans aren't going to jump over to the new thread. So I wanted them to be able to talk about the finale one last time before saying goodbye.
But it feels like this thread is starting to wind down. That it's mostly just the regulars anyways. Me and Omkaru are talking via PM now, and already have the format drafted. We just need to create a custom banner, and I guess just get everything else ready (the text and the pics).
As far as the re-watch goes, I was going to lead those. But I'm not sure when you guys want to start the re-watches. Would you want to start ATLA re-watch right away? Would you want to wait until after X-mas, in January?
I wanted to do a live style, where we watched it weekly, as if it was on TV. But do we do 2 episodes instead of 1? 3 episodes? Do we pick a specific day that we are supposed to watch it? And what day? Do we have all the episodes (if we decided to watch more than 1 at a time) on that single day we set for the week?
So there is stuff we have to iron out for sure. If anyone has any suggestions, we welcome it.
I would say for community rewatch, since AvatarGAF is cross-Atlantic, we do it on the weekend since people don't have work/school that gets in the way of staying up a bit late if needs be. Also, we could ask people to set aside an hour each week for the community re-watch. That will give us ~10-20 minutes to get ready and then squeeze in two episodes.
And yeah, if someone wants to lend their photoshop skillz to the thread then get in touch.
And yeah, if someone wants to lend their photoshop skillz to the thread then get in touch.
JadedWriter
Member
Book 2 OT2 would probably be called ToaTak's wet dream.I believe the original plan was January, but since this thread is hurtling towards 20,000 posts a lot quicker than I thought it would it'll have to be moved forward. Unless we want to make a Book 2 OT2 (which strikes me as silly since the show is now over), then hopefully we have something ready for when that time comes. It may be a bit barebones, but we'll build on it over the coming weeks. The main things we need is a thread, some basic info about the show and info on the community rewatch. I have a few other plans for the community thread because we all seem to get along so well, but a lot of the finer details will have to wait out for the new year.
I just hope you lot don't max out this thread tonight. I'm busy tonight.
Hah, I didn't see that typo. I'd have thought Book 4 OT2 would be too, since he loves Kuvira so much. :3
I'll take either one, but there better be some Kuvira love on that new OT.
Try asking around in the OT OT.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Well it is required by law that the following image must be in the banner.
Edit: Is it too early to use that picture as an avatar here? I don't want to accidentally spoil someone who is just a couple of days behind.
The new thread should be called AvatarGAF, agreed.
I'm still hoping Paramount Animation picks up that LoK movie we heard about back in 2012 and LoK turns out to be the reverse Star Trek: The Next Generation, where the movie "Generations" was worse than the series' actual finale.
In LoK case, maybe we can get a cool hour and a half movie more.
I'm still hoping Paramount Animation picks up that LoK movie we heard about back in 2012 and LoK turns out to be the reverse Star Trek: The Next Generation, where the movie "Generations" was worse than the series' actual finale.
In LoK case, maybe we can get a cool hour and a half movie more.
You know a movie would be pretty cool and just imagine that movie budget animation.
WrenchNinja
Member
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