RSB
Banned
Hmm, I'm starting to see a pattern here...
The CoD crowd? Nah, that's too reductionist. The modern shooter crowd is more like it. And no, not every change, just the obvious (ADS, sprint, killcams, the dudebro spartans, etc)
Halo 5: Guardians Beta Thread | Hot Red on Blue Action
- Thread starter VisceralBowl
- Start date
Haven't played the beta, though I think it looks much better than Halo 4 - I absolutely hated that game, played it a couple years after release and it more or less killed my enthusiasm for the series sans Bungie. Online was a complete fucking mess that's for sure and seemed to dilute the skill based combat I'd associate with Halo.
The SMG+AR thing seems to highlight that for me. Balancing these weapons for the sandbox sounds dandy to me in theory but Halo's two weapon combination and inherent weapon traits already felt to do that for me. Of course you're never going to get the kill from extreme ranges with an AR/SMG in Halo 3 for example but with controlled bursts you could find yourself more accurate and if the enemy had no shield, still take them out.
At the beginning of a game I'd always favour an AR+BR for the close/long range balance and either weapon changing out would come with some form of consequence. BR+Sniper would limit close range battles without grenades, AR+Shotgun excellent for clearing rooms but required moving with teams or inclosed spaces.
I've not played Halo 5 yet, and aside from all the armour abilities, ground-pound, clamber
, Halo 4 weaponry, E-sports direction and such, it actually looks like it could be fun - a lot closer to what I've expected from Halo.
But man, I don't see the need for the ADS and I don't see it being beneficial to the overall sandbox.
But I haven't played it so...
The SMG+AR thing seems to highlight that for me. Balancing these weapons for the sandbox sounds dandy to me in theory but Halo's two weapon combination and inherent weapon traits already felt to do that for me. Of course you're never going to get the kill from extreme ranges with an AR/SMG in Halo 3 for example but with controlled bursts you could find yourself more accurate and if the enemy had no shield, still take them out.
At the beginning of a game I'd always favour an AR+BR for the close/long range balance and either weapon changing out would come with some form of consequence. BR+Sniper would limit close range battles without grenades, AR+Shotgun excellent for clearing rooms but required moving with teams or inclosed spaces.
I've not played Halo 5 yet, and aside from all the armour abilities, ground-pound, clamber
I used to enjoy being able to escape to certain areas mid battle with a well timed air-crouch
But man, I don't see the need for the ADS and I don't see it being beneficial to the overall sandbox.
But I haven't played it so...
How does adding clutter to the screen make a competive arena shooter better?
It doesn't
ebullientprism
Member
If you are making an exception for Swat then why not for this?
I get that everything must be compared to CoD for the hate to truly flow but that makes no sense.
Ol No Bones
Banned
I hate COD multi. At no point did I say, "This feels like COD.". People need to play it before they make these conclusions. Its a different take on halo but the good old guns, grenades, melee formula is there but its even more dynamic with thruster, charge, ground pound, smart scope. You aren't going to be able to just stare down some lane in the map and get kills like COD.
RSB
Banned
Indeed.
ADS is horrible. Classic zoom/scope FTW!
Well, if chasing that modern shooter crowd is not the reason behind shit like ADS, for example, then 343 has no "excuse" And that's even worse, it would be just bad game design.
Even in 3 & Reach, where the AR performed best, by the time you popped the shields of a guy with the BR or DMR, he'd be getting that fourth or fifth headshot in.
And that kind of situation would usually only come about if you had caught them unaware, or if they or simply didn't know any better.
Threads these past few weeks have been telling me differently. It's not like everybody's doing it, but it's still funny to me.
too much eslim
Member
ADS is pointless on Autos. Maybe the AR but thats pushing it. there is no need to use them. it is a close range weapon nothing more.
That's all it's ever really been, to be more accurate. Even in Halo 3 and Reach, Bungie aimed to make it a bit more competent at mid-range through pulse fire. It didn't work out as well as they'd hoped, though.
too much eslim
Member
I dont think people were expecting ads to tighten bullet spread though...
Even in 3 & Reach, where the AR performed best, by the time you popped the shields of a guy with the BR or DMR, he'd be getting that fourth or fifth headshot in.
And that kind of situation would usually only come about if you had caught them unaware, or if they or simply didn't know any better.
Yup, in the event they had a BR. If they were at the same range with the same gun it'd depend on who aimed better, controlled spray better, threw better grenades and better utilised cover and movement. Instead of bouncing in and out of having increased long range accuracy on a close/mid-range gun.
It also encouraged some form of thought in either movement or positioning. Retreating to a space where your AR will trump a BR/DMR or goad a grenade throw into deading their shield. Not engaging from range and instead following them from distance without getting into radar range whilst getting a gun to up your strength, or a personal favourite when truly outgunned - crouching the fuck around and getting the drop from behind.
But let's be real here. It's not like anyone with a BR is going to get murdered by anyone with an AR at range outside of optimal conditions. Much like using a shotgun against an AR will do the same outside of the shotgun's range.
Oh Halo 3...
Same here, I also agree that SMG shouldn't be allowed to chew through folks at anything beyond extreme close range.
From what I've seen, the SMG seems like a SAW replacement.
AW's, sure.
Granted, I recall a lot of that being said before folks could actually play the game.
Interficium
Banned
"Let's cater exclusively to the ultra-hardcore MLG and/or NeoGaf crowd who number far less than a million players worldwide!" said no AAA shooter developer ever.
Seems to be working fine for Valve/Riot. There really is no competitors on consoles.
Interficium
Banned
Oh, this is the part where you compare F2P PC MOBA games with a $60 retail boxed console-only, platform-exclusive shooter.
Chasing eSports crowds and dollars is suicide, nearly all the time.
It's easy to trot out your holy trinity of CS/LOL/DOTA and say "HEY, IT WORKS!" as long as you conveniently forget about all the many shooters and mobas that have tried to build themselves, from the ground up, as "competitive, eSports-friendly" games and completely failed, usually leading to the ruin of the studio, as well.
Halo already was a big esports title in 2/3 days. And why should Halo multiplayer be a $60 retail title? Of course it could fail but it could also be a money printing machine with new armors and weapon skins.
Broadbandito
Member
So when I was playing Destiny last night, I was in the midst of battle and grenade landed next to me so I quickly thrustered..oh wait.. I missed a jump and held down the jump button to save myself and clamber...oh wait..
I want more Halo 5 please. 29th can't come soon enough.
I want more Halo 5 please. 29th can't come soon enough.
Interficium
Banned
You know, I'm old enough to remember when Halo came out and all the Quake players fucking HATED IT. They were convinced Halo was a total watering down of the genre they loved. Why is this game so slow?? What the fuck, regenerating shields?? Where's the rocket jumping?? AUTO-AIM IN A SHOOTER ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME!! Most of the things they said sounded exactly the same as the stuff I see old Halo players say on Gaf now about COD/Titanfall/any shooter with ADS or sprint.
Many people on Gaf seem to have a delusion that if only "Halo would return to it roots!" it'll somehow become the king of all shooters again. Those days are over, they were over the moment MW2 came out. Just like Quake's days were numbered when Halo came out.
The idea that something like sprint, or bloom, or whatever the hated mechanic of the week happens to be, is responsible for the perceived decline of the Halo franchise is laughable, at best.
You can argue until you turn blue about why ADS and Sprint suck ass and ruin everything, just like Quake players bitched for years about regenerating shields, slow move speed, and aim assist.
What you cannot argue, at least with any shred of credibility, is that returning to the paradigm of multiplayer shooter design from "the good old days" will somehow lead to a critical or popular (at least as NeoGaf perceives those things) resurgence of Shooter X, in this case Halo. The world moved on. I'm sorry.
Leyasu
Banned
I clearly wrote not just because of ADS.
Listen, you and I will never agree on this. We cannot change each others minds :-D
I loved everything about the beta... EVERYTHING! Even the Spartan chatter breathed life into the game "got snipes" "Spartan down in blue" etc.. Fuck, even seeing the Spartans celebrating their win over me and my team made me want to win the next game lol
Everything clicks, the game flows, the gunplay is superb, the new abilities needed on a multiplayer long since gone stale. I could go on. But there is no need.
Evolve or die. And die is what halo would've done with out much needed changes! It still might... We will see.
Leyasu
Banned
I would rather the armours and skins be microtransactions and the map packs free in order to not split the community!
They could still be unlocks like in halo 4, but with the added option of buying them as well. Anything is better than paid map packs destroying the community.
I'm 99% sure we don't even agree on what 'evolve' means. But yeah, we could go on forever and never agree. I just hope you understand that if you think Halo's multiplayer has gone stale, maybe, just maybe you liking Halo 5 means it's not actually a good Halo game.
Edit. I don't mean Halo 5 won't be a great Halo game when it releases, but in its current form it definitely shits on top of some fans.
RSB
Banned
IDK why are you comparing a console FPS with a PC FPS, but ok. And I was just making an observation you know.
Anyway, I don't care if Halo is the king of shooters, or any of that other things you mentioned in your post. I'd just like the next Halo to be good, and the FPS genre in general not to be so ridiculously homogeneous (on consoles at least) That's all.
Leyasu
Banned
I get your point. But again I don't agree lol
I loved halo. When I was single, I used to have my mates round to my flat at weekends, smoking copious amounts weed and playing halo LANs... It was fucking awesome! Halo 2, 3 , reach and 4 less because of online, girlfriends and finally getting the fuck out of the UK!
But playing halo 5 last weekend.. It was just on a whole other level. Perhaps to the purests it ain't halo. Or halo how it used to be. I think bungie would have crucified it even worse though.
Well how about you wait until the 29th, play the beta and then actually give an opinion on what you have played rather than posting 40+ posts about what you don't like and ''lol Ogre 2''.
I've honestly never seen somebody well on their way to being one of the highest posters in a thread of a game they have never played.
RSB
Banned
If we could only give our opinions on games we had played, NeoGAF would be a very boring (and empty) place. LOL. And yeah, it's not like I'm gonna magically stop hating ADS when I play it, you know.
I'm not shooting down anybody, I'm just giving my opinion. Sorry if it bothers you so much I guess...
It's crazy, but after seeing what they did with Destiny, I agree.
blue_phazon
Member
There is giving your opinion and then there is what you are doing which is essentially shooting anybody down who tries to suggest to you that some of the new stuff actually works.
Again like I said above you are well on your way to becoming one of the top posters in a thread of a game you have never layed a finger on. Is that a problem? no, but it most certainly suggests you should wait the few more days and come back with some actual first hand opinions.
No need for anything other than a BR in the other Halo games. Unless of course we are talking the more specialized weaponry like rockets or snipes. Heck, even in 5 it still dominates unless you are really close in on someone with an AR.
RSB
Banned
Oh I'm sure I'll enjoy it more than 99% of shooters out there, even with ADS. You know, if I critizice it so much is because I care about Halo (it's my favorite franchise along with MGS)
Hating ADS is going into the beta with a closed mind? I don't think so. I just happen to hate ADS (my most hated macahnic in FPS's) Halo was the last console shooter that still used the classic zoom/scope (one of the reasons I like it) and I can't help to feel dissapointed seeing they decided to be just like every other console shooter and incorporate Iron Sights too.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
This, right here, is where your argument completely fails.
Halo started to die the moment it attempted to "evolve".
Halo 3 held a very healthy population right up until reach released. It held off 2 cod releases and only properly let go of the #1 spot when MW2 release 2 years after halo 3 launched. Even then, it's population was still very good only failing to support ranked big team playlists.
Reach launched, with them totally required "evolutions" and immediately dropped down the charts, barely holding on to the upper end of the scale. It's population was poor compared to Halo 3 even more than 2 years after it launched.
Then, we get that amazing evolutionists wet dream, Halo 4. Oh, what's that? the game plummeted to sub 20k players 6 months after launch? Yea, them evolutions that were 100% undoubtedly required because if they hadn't happened Halo would die TOTALLY saved Halo, didn't it? Yep, Halo is totally saved because it "evolved"!
Oh, wait....
And now look, more drivel about Halo "needing to evolve" and more garbage additions to a game that outright damage gameplay. I wonder where it is heading...
My kill feed from Halo 3 probably agrees with you.
Although there's not necessarily any need - but again this goes back toward Halo's emphasis on handling two weapons at once and the positives+drawbacks of each. BR/DMR remain king because of the series' utilisation of shields combined with headshot potential.
I mean, it was always contextual even still dependent on which map you're playing and where on the map, who against and what they're packing. I guess ultimately I just see it as reducing that rock/paper/scissor element if you can just scope up your paper to on occasion beat scissor.
I suppose ultimately it comes down to the idea of a skill ceiling, with the BR being intrinsic with high level play and how this ADS change reflects upon that and the overall gameplay approach.
Abinash117
Member
It doesn't make sense for the SMG to be slightly better then the AR, which is vague. I guess you mean at everything? Because then it would be pointless to use the AR and wouldn't make sense for an SMG to out range an rifle. Also you didn't listen a little , the AR has been described as a mid range weapon, and the AR in halo 4 has similar hip fire red reticule range as the BR , I don't know the ranges for halo reach and 3, but it might be similar too. Lastly, again keeping the AR at a close range just makes it a another SMG clone and make it useless if the SMG is suppose to be better.
Dynasty8
Member
To be fair, Halo 3 released before the first Modern Warfare. It was pretty much one of the only competitive games to play on XBL. CoD had almost everything to do with the number of decreasing players.
IMO, CoD wasn't even regarded as a competitive game until Modern Warfare came along. Halo 3 had a huge crowd and SLOWLY that crowd started migrating to CoD (myself included at one point) due to the smooth/fast 60fps gameplay. People loved the fast paced nature of that game. Being multi platform also helped...everyone was talking about it regardless of what console they owned and that made their friends pick up on it as well.
As much as anyone can hate on that series, the games always run smooth...and I think that attracted the competitive FPS crowd. It felt weird going back to Halo after MW1 and 2 (and I love Halo way more).
I just think people need to go into this game with an open mind. After playing nearly 10 hours of the beta, I think 343 has perfectly got it down on how to appropriately "evolve" the Halo gameplay.
If you simply don't prefer the fast paced nature of Halo 5....the MCC is still there. But IMHO, Halo desperately needs this.
AR won't be useless because it's the starting weapon and AR being described as a mid range weapon matters...ummm, why? Automatics are close range weapons because by design, they are easy to use. SMG is a mid tier, map pickup weapon so it being stronger than the AR in almost all aspects is not a problem (AR could probably have much longer tap fire range/first few shots should be more accurate).
Leyasu
Banned
lol
Sprint or even the abortion known as reach didn't decimate halo, cod did! Halo was massive in 2007 before cod mw hit. Then everything changed. But you already know that dont you! You also know that a barebones slow arse halo 5 that resembles 2 or 3 will suffer the same fate. But you dont want to admit it. Or perhaps you are in denial or both.
Anyway, I like my account on here so I wont bother getting into this..
Enjoy the beta next week lol Because that what you so-called purists or unpaid "pros" are getting. ;-)
Please explain how Halo 5 is fast and Halo 2 is 'barebones slow'? During the beta Halo 5 was pretty much as fast as Halo 2 on similar arena maps, like midship.
I've seen you dismiss Sprint, Clamber, ADS, AR boost, Ground Pound, Squad chatter so far and all without playing the game. It's not about being bothered because you have a different opinion on the game it's about being bemused by how often you repeat how unneeded this new stuff is without playing the game.
I mean......
So it appears you like classic scope and anything else would be terrible game design and shitting on the fans.
''I'm all for Halo changing and evolving, but I'm not gonna accept everything. If I think a particular change or addition is bad, I'll critizice it''
See this is my problem, you have ''critiziced'' pretty much everything that has been added to Halo 5 multiple times without trying it for yourself. I'm sorry but this goes above just opinion.
It's getting really tiring being constantly told that my favorite series needs to to keep moving away from what I (and many many other people) actually liked about it just because "lol needs to evolve".
I don't go in Smash threads and see shit like this.
You don't see it in Counter Strike threads either
It's the same exact shit as "Nintendo needs to make smartphones games, get with the times!"
Halo is a multi million dollar franchise. Master Cheif is a gaming fucking icon. There is no reason at all to streamline things and make stuff that was never a problem more familiar with players. Clamber and ADS are there just to coddle the casual who drops the game in 2 months anyways.
I'm really glad people are enjoying the game, old and new fans. I'm warming up to it myself (minus the sound design), but "Halo needs to evolve" is such a baseless and insulting reasoning for unnecessary change and pandering.
I don't go in Smash threads and see shit like this.
You don't see it in Counter Strike threads either
It's the same exact shit as "Nintendo needs to make smartphones games, get with the times!"
Halo is a multi million dollar franchise. Master Cheif is a gaming fucking icon. There is no reason at all to streamline things and make stuff that was never a problem more familiar with players. Clamber and ADS are there just to coddle the casual who drops the game in 2 months anyways.
I'm really glad people are enjoying the game, old and new fans. I'm warming up to it myself (minus the sound design), but "Halo needs to evolve" is such a baseless and insulting reasoning for unnecessary change and pandering.
barneystuta83
Member
Mario is a gaming icon. He evolved, significantly across generations, most notably from 2D to 3D. And Nintendo pulled it off. Big time. And he hasn't looked back.
Sonic on the other hand...
COD has barely switched it's formula up since MW. It peaked at BLOPS 2... And it has been in steady decline since (in terms of sales and population).
My point is simple. If Halo doesn't change and evolve, it will quickly become forgotten and a niche franchise. It is that simple.
Staying static, in the long term, means you are going backwards.
Any changes have to work though, Halo 4 deviated too far from the "Halo" formula. Halo 5 has reigned it in, and it works.
Each to their own though.
If the beta is anything to go by Halo 5 will be good, very good in fact.
Actually i would say that Halo 4 ( and Reach MP before that) did not evolve the formula, it just added a bunch of shit (perks, loadouts, ordinance drops, etc) that actually broke the game. Where as going by what i played in the beta, Halo 5 actually does evolve the formula by giving more movement options, as well as more offensive and defensive techniques to use in the sandbox while still feeling like a Halo game. (Again as Halo 4 should have done.)
VincentMatts
Member
I tend to agree with that. Although i agree that what made Halo popular was the subtleties like map control and weapon control, it still needs to evolve but at the same time, there has to be a balance. COD is a great example. They change things up all the time gameplay wise by adding abilities, perks, jumps and such, but the games population is still declining. So its not as simple as just "adding features".
RSB
Banned
Wow, I guess I really struck a nerve. You even went to other threads to recopilate all those posts. Amazing, you really went above and beyond the call. Guess I should feel flattered you took your time to prepare such a beautiful post (agree with everything you quoted)
Seriously though, I haven't critiziced everything. I like thrusters, I like the decreased aim-assist, I like the default pistol being useful again, I like the Combat Evolved medal (well, technically what you have to do to earn it) I like the faster pace of the combat...
I'm just focusing on the things I don't like, because I would like them changed before the game hits. Better to complain now than when it is too late, no? And no, I don't need to play the game first to know that I hate ADS, that I still don't like sprint, that the radar should be removed from Halo once and for all, that the dudebro spartans are dumb... you get the idea.
Again, sorry if it bothers you so much...
Dynasty8
Member
I really don't know if you're serious or not.
The next day after the Halo 5 beta ended, I started playing the MCC. My Halo 2 spartan was moving like a snail. The movement between the map was hilariously slow compared to Guardians.
The difference is like day and night.
Abinash117
Member
It matters because that's how they are supposedly should be designed so that's what 343 is doing, designing them to be a decent at mid range, but still lose to a skilled/decent BR user. Being a starting doesn't magically make it useful, including the fact that many people hate AR starts for the fact they are useless to defend themselves. Which has been a fact since halo 3. Are using the mid tier thing from Quinn? Because if so, he was talking about their numbers not their power and I believe somewhere on the Halogaf thread frankie said the SMG was nerfed in their recent build or getting looked at.