Support NeoGAF

[mdubs]

I watch a good amount of anime but have never really got into the whole Moe or cute girls doing cute things kind of shows (except Shirobako which is wonderful because it is so much more than that). But to each their own at any rate.

 

[ZackieChan]

I agree. People visit Akihabara and then say moe culture is everywhere in Japan. In fact, finding anime on regular TV is pretty damn hard. Japanese TV is pretty fucking boring actually.

This. I am here in Tokyo now, and this stuff I rare outside of Akiba. That place can get creepy as fuck, though. But most people I know here know fuck-all about this stuff that people claim is "Japanese culture."

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

It can be creepy no doubt, but it's also progressive in the sense that's it's basically accepted (well kinda) cuteness for guys. It is however overused and I think that is one of the big problems, when you dote over a single aspect of something it can become problematic. I don't think it's a cause of gender issues in Japan though (those are really deep and more embedded with work culture), overuse might be more of symptom.
.

I sort of see this as the same reason I dislike My Little Pony. It's always sort of pushed as this breaking of gender-boundaries and such, but there always seem to be a really, defensiveness among its fans. Like it's supposed to be media that challenges conventional society, according to fans, but I don't see any evidence of that. It just seems to be mainly men obsessing over a series, and acting like the series is more than it is.

Honestly, I actually think the fact that a lot of fans just don't say "I find this attractive on some level" to be the weird thing. I mean it's always gotta be, "I like the story!", "the game play is really great once you get pas the little girls", it's just odd to me how they seem to avoid discussing the designs like they're embarrassed by them. It makes me more suspicious of why they enjoy it versus them just admitting they think it's cute.

This is something I've had some thoughts stewing on for a while but haven't found time to articulate, this might be a place to get some of them out:

I think its not as simple as being sexual attraction, although it certainly often contains that, I think its a more complicated general "desire" that can be sexual or just emotionally desirous in nature. But where it starts to bother me, I mean really bother me, is when I see it directed at characters who are not just sexually and/or romantically inexperienced but seemingly sexually and/or romantically oblivious. I mean, for all of the various valid criticisms of Oreimo at least in the few episodes I saw the main characters seemed aware of themselves and their wants in a way I don't see exhibited in many other "moe figures". The...the unidirectionality of desiring a character who expresses no desire themselves feels skeevy to me

I know exactly what you mean, the female characters are either unrealistically juvenile or mature, never age-appropriate, and there's always a passiveness about them. I think that's the difference between them, and a lot of like older American cartoons with female casts like As Told By Ginger and Pepper Ann. Those shows seemed to actually be made for girls---the characters as I recall would question their attraction, have issues with dealing with love interests, their changing emotions, fighting between being just a kid, and being a girl, there was a sense that they were somewhat real girls. As a boy, I watched those shows occasionally, but found them a bit off-putting when they got into the more serious issues like periods and bras...I was a guy, so you know, I didn't really want to watch that stuff. Perhaps that's why these moe shows are so popular among men---they don't seem to challenge them by presenting real female issues, and making them feel uncomfortable or question gender roles, they just have cute cartoon characters that look like little girls doing generic cartoon character things.

 

[FO-totality]

I feel really bad for liking K-ON. I had no idea moe culture was a thing, I just thought it was a cute, clean, family friendly show.

It wasn't until later that I realized why Asuka(?) started wearing cat ears from a meta perspective. Thought it was just an endearing character thing at the time.

Man whatever. Like what you like. Haters gonna hate.

 

[SliceSabre]

Remember to have just 1 waifu

Getting more waifu will destroy your laifu.

 

[akira28]

Its escapism at its heart. Purely and simply, a candy colored world of eternal youth, predictability and innocence, to be corrupted in any way the desire in accordance with the plot.

 

[Sami+]

I'm more creeped out at the people who watch some anime and want to be Japanese because of the "culture" or whatever the fuck that means. Next thing you know it they're writing full blown English sentences with that one random Japanese word, their Deviant art page in all in Japanese with their really shitty animu fan art of random character having relations and shit. Talkin about how they prefer random Japanese products over their US counterpart.

Shits creepy.

And yea too many people think Akiha is representative of all of Japan.

But anime factually is fine art unlike your horrible gaijin cartoons

Just because you're a gross baka desu ne with no tomodachis doesn't mean you can trash my culture

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to hang out with my onii chan (who has beautiful bountiful oppai btw)

arigato

 

[Moonkid]

Getting more waifu will destroy your laifu.

Moe waifu moe problems.

 

[The Technomancer]

I feel really bad for liking K-ON. I had no idea moe culture was a thing, I just thought it was a cute, clean, family friendly show.

It wasn't until later that I realized why Asuka(?) started wearing cat ears from a meta perspective. Thought it was just an endearing character thing at the time.

I wouldn't feel particularly bad for liking K-On, the show itself is pretty inoffensive (even if I find it boring). There are criticisms you can level at it, but nothing other shows aren't worse about.

Its ongoing fan base though...ehhhhhh. I poked my head into our shockingly large K-on community thread (which is somehow on like its third OT) out of morbid curiosity and what I saw affirmed the things I've expressed here: lots of images of "innocence" juxtaposed next to sexually charged images and images emphasizing the girls physical closeness

 

[Jazzy Network]

But anime factually is fine art unlike your horrible gaijin cartoons

Just because you're a gross baka desu ne with no tomodachis doesn't mean you can trash my culture

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to hang out with my onii chan

arigato

Need subtitles.

 

[AnathemicOne]

I'm more creeped out at the people who watch some anime and want to be Japanese because of the "culture" or whatever the fuck that means. Next thing you know it they're writing full blown English sentences with that one random Japanese word, their Deviant art page in all in Japanese with their really shitty animu fan art of random character having relations and shit. Talkin about how they prefer random Japanese products over their US counterpart.

Shits creepy.

And yea too many people think Akiha is representative of all of Japan.

So you're telling me, you got something against our lord and savior AngelSoldier?

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461869

 

[dluu13]

Man, I used to vote in those ISML polls (online competition for the most moe anime girl). Looking back it was a weird time of my life, but pretty fun for sure.

 

[Sami+]

Need subtitles.

keikau means plan, baka

 

[teruterubozu]

keikau means plan, baka

keikaku, you aho.

 

[Sami+]

I wouldn't feel particularly bad for liking K-On, the show itself is pretty inoffensive (even if I find it boring). There are criticisms you can level at it, but nothing other shows aren't worse about.

Its ongoing fan base though...ehhhhhh. I poked my head into our shockingly large K-on community thread (which is somehow on like its third OT) out of morbid curiosity and what I saw affirmed the things I've expressed here: lots of images of "innocence" juxtaposed next to sexually charged images and images emphasizing the girls physical closeness

I enjoyed the characters and humor, it wasn't laugh out loud hilarious or anything but (the first season especially) was just pleasant. It was a good feel good show iirc, not really blatant about the moe moe kyun crap.

keikaku, you aho.

I have shamed my 6th grade typing class sensei with this typo

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

I'd like to point out that I think a show can be legitimately well-written and enjoyable, but still be off-putting for having these types of characters. I just don't see a situation where having these designs helps a series, it always seems like it detracts from them, in my point of view. There's just never a point to them beyond pandering to me.

I am not going to lie, I have a lower opinion of posters if they are sporting a moe anime avatar. Shit is just creepy.

It's gotten to the point where people sporting moe avatars seriously, and people doing it ironically, are interchangeable.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

So you're telling me, you got something against our lord and savior AngelSoldier?

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461869

 

[Extollere]

I love how the feeling of moe amplifies my budding sexual desires.. Give me more! Look at me softly with those glowing, wide, puppy-dog eyes and I'll get the wedgie out your thong

 

[Zantetsuken]

Moe in the cut, that's a scary sight.

 

[Usobuko]

but in my experience, the overabundance of Japanese media featuring young girls seems to be made in mind to cater to older, usually male, fans.

Just curious, do you feel this way for strong female leads which was written by male writers, catered for mostly the male audience?

 

[PirateKing]

keikau means plan, baka

I'll take a potato chip, and eat it!

 

[maxcriden]

I agree. People visit Akihabara and then say moe culture is everywhere in Japan. In fact, finding anime on regular TV is pretty damn hard. Japanese TV is pretty fucking boring actually.

It's...not boring to everyone. It's awesome to some of us! J-dramas are my favorite cultural discovery ever. I prefer them in general to American TV now.

 

[teruterubozu]

So you're telling me, you got something against our lord and savior AngelSoldier?

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461869

haha, that was classic. But yeah, that's disturbing levels of weeaboo-ness.

 

[Branduil]

I'd like to point out that I think a show can be legitimately well-written and enjoyable, but still be off-putting for having these types of characters. I just don't see a situation where having these designs helps a series, it always seems like it detracts from them, in my point of view. There's just never a point to them beyond pandering to me.

See, this is the problem with moe as a term. What are "these types of characters,""these designs"? You're obviously got something in mind but your terms are entirely undefined.

 

[chaobreaker]

See, I'm not exactly a huge fan of moe anime things but my biggest beef with it is how it basically results in seasonal anime line-ups being full of harem stories disguised as slice-of-life comedies. They're all so bad. You watched one of them you watched them all.

Or how the moe aesthetic stifles creative character designs. So many series suffer from the same face syndrome where all the girls look the same and are only visually differentiated by their hair colour, hairstyle, eye colour, and bust size. I've seen waifu wars discussons on which the cast of girls are literally identified by their hair colour (eg RED IS BEST GIRL). It's really fucking sad.

That being said, I still think GAF should lay off on the creepshaming that's frequently present wheb anime stuff gets posted outside of animeGAF. I already see the anime avatars are being brought up. I'm not saying games like Criminal Girls or Monster Monpiece aren't disgusting pieces of media, but the hate over anime stuff gets a little too strong here. Like all that anger and outrage over that new Tekken character. Come on, guys.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

So you're telling me, you got something against our lord and savior AngelSoldier?

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461869

Honestly, I think this thread is an example of DetectiveGAF being needlessly nosy and intrusive. Nothing about the thread really depended on whether or not AngelSoldier was actually Japanese, he asked a legitimate question about a serious event in American history. He wasn't trying to scam or con anyone, it just seemed to be a weird quirk of his.

 

[Lulubop]

It's Cancer that already killed anime.

RIP.

 

[SenorArdilla]

So you're telling me, you got something against our lord and savior AngelSoldier?

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461869

Wait. Is this that guy who pretended that he was Japanese?

 

[Despera]

I didn't choose the moe life, the moe life chose me...

Actually I'm no fan of moe or big-eye'd "am I kawaii" stuff, but K-ON was a funny show. I can overlook that shit but there's a threshold of how much of it I can handle.

 

[teruterubozu]

It's...not boring to everyone. It's awesome to some of us! J-dramas are my favorite cultural discovery ever. I prefer them in general to American TV now.

I like my share of J-dramas too, but most Japanese TV is "talento" variety show crap...and news, lots of news.

 

[PirateKing]

OP watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gdsdqu5XWI

 

[injurai]

left brained people make stronger connections through symbolism, I'd imagine going through puberty while watching these shows sort of does something to you

plus that symbolism works on all ranges of the spectrum from sexualization to maternal/paternal instincts

 

[FO-totality]

See, I'm not exactly a huge fan of moe anime things but my biggest beef with it is how it basically results in seasonal anime line-ups being full of harem stories disguised as slice-of-life comedies. They're all so bad. You watched one of them you watched them all.

Or how the moe aesthetic stifles creative character designs. So many series suffer from the same face syndrome where all the girls look the same and are only visually differentiated by their hair colour, hairstyle, eye colour, and bust size. I've seen waifu wars discussons on which the cast of girls are literally identified by their hair colour (eg RED IS BEST GIRL). It's really fucking sad.

That being said, I still think GAF should lay off on the creepshaming that's frequently present wheb anime stuff gets posted outside of animeGAF. I already see the anime avatars are being brought up. I'm not saying games like Criminal Girls or Monster Monpiece aren't disgusting pieces of media, but the hate over anime stuff gets a little too strong here. Like all that anger and outrage over that new Tekken character. Come on, guys.

Real talk at the bolded.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

I wouldn't feel particularly bad for liking K-On, the show itself is pretty inoffensive (even if I find it boring). There are criticisms you can level at it, but nothing other shows aren't worse about.

Its ongoing fan base though...ehhhhhh. I poked my head into our shockingly large K-on community thread (which is somehow on like its third OT) out of morbid curiosity and what I saw affirmed the things I've expressed here: lots of images of "innocence" juxtaposed next to sexually charged images and images emphasizing the girls physical closeness

I don't really understand how the way some people operate in a fanbase affects your view or enjoyment of the thing that they are a fan of. Unless you require their cooperation to participate in the activity like with say League of Legends or Dota2, in which case poor treatment at the hands of community members can indeed affect your enjoyment.

 

[maxcriden]

I like my share of J-dramas too, but most Japanese TV is "talento" variety show crap...and news, lots of news.

Oh, I see. yeah, I haven't watched anything other than J-dramas, so I just wanted to stand up for those, haha. I haven't watched any talento, news, competitions, or anime (except Pokemon as a kid) so I'm kind of out of the loop on that front.

 

[Protag]

I love how the feeling of moe amplifies my budding sexual desires.. Give me more! Look at me softly with those glowing, wide, puppy-dog eyes and I'll get the wedgie out your thong

Lmfao, fucking great.

 

[Ayumi]

Even in Japan it's not that hard to avoid.

Unless you're one of those who think Akiba is the capital of Japan.

 

[Fusebox]

As a Vita owner, I kinda agree with you. It sucks that so much of the Vita's catalogue is moe games. Although this is coming from someone who loves the hell out of Senran Kagura Shinovi Versus but hates Bon Apetit.

What are all the moe games on Vita?

Also I probably saw more cute-girl-anime advertising in Causeway Bay Hong Kong than last time I stayed in Ginza.

 

[jello44]

That being said, I still think GAF should lay off on the creepshaming that's frequently present wheb anime stuff gets posted outside of animeGAF. I already see the anime avatars are being brought up. I'm not saying games like Criminal Girls or Monster Monpiece aren't disgusting pieces of media, but the hate over anime stuff gets a little too strong here. Like all that anger and outrage over that new Tekken character. Come on, guys.

If you post with an anime avatar, I can't take your opinion seriously.

I mean, GOD.

 

[Cbajd5]

some day anime shall transcend moe

SOMEDAY

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't really understand how the way some people operate in a fanbase affects your view or enjoyment of the thing that they are a fan of. Unless you require their cooperation to participate in the activity like with say League of Legends or Dota2, in which case poor treatment at the hands of community members can indeed affect your enjoyment.

I said it in like the first post I made in thus thread: it affected my involvement with the broader "anime community". Anime became a more private and less frequent thing for me. I'm not assigning blame, mind you, there's no resentment here, just observation of my own reaction

(Okay there might be some resentment when it comes to JRPGs. That stuff is damn near ubiquitous now, or at least the proportions have shifted wrt the non pandering content)

 

[Lazyslob]

i dont know wtf moe culture is but its anime characters in pictures with minorities?

 

[Valkerionseven]

Moe kinda killed my interest in anime but after reading a few articles made by actual creators and their thoughts on moe... I started to notice anime again. Even the creators past and present are sick of it all. Its done for that hardcore, spends thousands a month on random items crowd. They know they do not need to make deep characters or plots, just hit a few check marks and profit.

Made me jump back into old anime from the 80s and man it was soo good. Most of the good shows are about adults, seeing a high school character with high school proportions, a 20+ year old main character who looks 20's, not crappy intros done by the voice actors! ugh so good.

 

[MHWilliams]

No, I agree with you pretty much completely. There are totally different streams of Japanese culture to dip your toe into, though. Have you tried J-dramas? I'd be glad to recommend some. There's also this great thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=531834

I feel you.

I feel really bad for liking K-ON. I had no idea moe culture was a thing, I just thought it was a cute, clean, family friendly show.

It wasn't until later that I realized why Asuka(?) started wearing cat ears from a meta perspective. Thought it was just an endearing character thing at the time.

You shouldn't feel bad about it. You do you.

Just realize it may be odd to the average person.

I'd like to point out that I think a show can be legitimately well-written and enjoyable, but still be off-putting for having these types of characters. I just don't see a situation where having these designs helps a series, it always seems like it detracts from them, in my point of view. There's just never a point to them beyond pandering to me.

It helps with the intended target audience. I agree it sometimes prevents those project from reaching a wider audience.

 

[Watch Da Birdie]

Just curious, do you feel this way for strong female leads which was written by male writers, catered for mostly the male audience?

I think there's a global issue where the majority of "strong female characters" are being written by men, to be honest, and in most cases in shows designed to attract a mainly male audience. A lot of times I feel like companies are struggling to write believable female characters, but seem to never consider, y'know, just hiring a woman. I think the main issue is we need more women allowed to have creative control over characters of their gender.

See, this is the problem with moe as a term. What are "these types of characters,""these designs"? You're obviously got something in mind but your terms are entirely undefined.

Honestly, it's hard to define for me without really looking for pictures of this stuff, so it's just a hard thing to discuss. Basically there are three characteristics I think of when I think of this "moe": they often have a simplistic expression, either shy, quirky, or overly serious, there's not a lot of middle ground so they don't seem to have a lot of agency, they're drawn to look young, body wise, but tend to have a characteristic that makes them come across as being not authentically a young character, usually a sort of shameful, come-hither expression, or a blush, or a focus on their legs/breasts (this is subjective, but I feel most people can sort of get a feeling what the designer's intent is with the design), and finally, they tend to be part of a group with very little differentiation between them beyond color and expression, on the surface.

I guess that's sort of my standard. Just young cartoon girls that have an unnaturalness to them. But I won't lie and say a lot of this is just the feeling I get from the designs.

Like all that anger and outrage over that new Tekken character. Come on, guys.

It is a pretty goofy design, and I think the fact there was that one designer who more or less came out against the detractors using the good ol' "ethnocentric!" excuse, from what I recall, didn't help matters.

 

[maxcriden]

I feel you.

Is that from...Priceless? Haven't watched it yet but it's on the list!

 

[Jams775]

Is this the Moe culture?

 

[Usobuko]

I think there's a global issue where the majority of "strong female characters" are being written by men, to be honest, and in most cases in shows designed to attract a mainly male audience.

At least you're consistent and I agree.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

It's Cancer that already killed anime.

RIP.

A lot of kids in the late 80s and 90s watched Anime played a lot of japanese games like Final Fantasy when it didn't have all this crap but ditched it when this kinda stuff started in the 2000s. It just became so unappealing. And its not like cartoons are the reason. I still watch ghibli movies and some American cartoons (mostly adult shows like Bobs burgers and Archer though)

 

[Astral/H3X]

I was going to post, but fuck it, no one will take me seriously because of my avatar.