Is it wrong to look if someone is showing cleavage?

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SkeptiMism said:
As others have said, there's nothing wrong with a glance.




This is just bullshit though and it's a rather nasty way of thinking to be honest. It's similar to using a short skirt. Or simply making yourself look attractive in general. A person doesn't necessarily do it to get looks, but it can be as simple as wanting to make herself feel better / more comfortable / secure. Or maybe that skirt or shirt is just cute in her opinion. Or maybe, you know, she doesn't want to actively put on a shirt that covers more just to not get looks.
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You do know what this word means, right? Like, the point is to attract.
 
ronito said:
I saw a mormon missionary a few days ago and her boobs were obviously huge. She had a cardigan and had buttoned the top few buttons so you couldn't see her cleavage. It looked really uncomfortable and frankly, a little silly. But I understand why she did it. Some women have cleavage they just can't hide.

For the record, in a work setting absolutely do not look. In a public setting as Seinfeld said, treat it like the sun. I will admit though that in private my wife's cleavage severely distracts me to the point where I'm like "....what were we talking about?"
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Obviously
 
molvetica said:
The thought process I described was exactly that. It's not like "self control" is an on/off switch. In some situations your instincts simply take over.

I'm not "blaming" women at all, and I apologize if I've somehow implied that. I'm simply describing how these situations play out inside my male brain.
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Yeah, but the "I'm a male" excuse only gets you so far. As others have agreed there's nothing wrong with catching a glimpse, but if you seriously find yourself unable to look away from a pair of tits for more than a few seconds, then there are some social behavior problems to fix.

You maybe weren't outright blaming them but implying that women don't consider the "mail biology" when dressing themselves is putting the responsibility on someone else for your behavior.
 
simpsons-guests3.jpg
 
dreams said:
...and don't even want to change even though women tell you it makes them uncomfortable, then maybe you should think about that.
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It goes both ways though...

Woman wears low cut top > man feels uncomfortable because he can't stop looking.
Man gawks at woman > woman feels uncomfortable because of the unwanted attention.

There's no "right" or "wrong" in this situation. Many women become frustrated because they simply cannot comprehend why some men can't help but stare. Many men become frustrated because they cannot comprehend why women don't expect the attention when they wear suggestive clothing. Our brains simply work differently.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
You keep going back to this excuse for yourself as some sort of widely relatable understanding when there are plenty straight men who are able to behave appropriately.
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There are plenty of straight men who lie and say that they "behave appropriately" so that people don't mistake them for creepers, perhaps. I'm just honest to a fault.

Khaz said:
Hypocrits who have yet to be caught, more likely.
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Bingo. =P
 
molvetica said:
It goes both ways though...

Woman wears low cut top > man feels uncomfortable because he can't stop looking.
Man gawks at woman > woman feels uncomfortable because of the unwanted attention.

There's no "right" or "wrong" in this situation. Many women become frustrated because they simply cannot comprehend why some men can't help but stare. Many men become frustrated because they cannot comprehend why women don't expect the attention when they wear suggestive clothing. Our brains simply work differently.
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But that woman isn't actually doing anything to make that man "uncomfortable." She's simply existing (and lets not pretend that men ONLY gawk at women wearing low-cut tops).

You keep trying to bring this back to brain function and men and women just being programmed different, but if that were the culprit then this would be a problem with all men. And it's not. Believe it or not, there are a LOT of men out there who know how to be courteous in their appreciation of an attractive person.
 
molvetica said:
...so is the man.
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Staring like a creep isn't a component of the human condition for men. You make the choice to openly gawk and you can choose not to.

Unless you're really trying to suggest that the male brain works on such a basic level that it's just impossible for men to do something I could easily train my dog to do?
 
royalan said:
Staring like a creep isn't a component of the human condition for men. You make the choice to openly gawk and you can choose not to.

Unless you're really trying to suggest that the male brain works on such a basic level that it's just impossible for men to do something I could easily train my dog to do?
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You can choose not to "openly" gawk, sure.

But no, you can't stop yourself from taking another glance when you're already looking in the same direction. That's just going to happen and you're going to feel bad about it every time it does.

You can train your dog to not touch his food until you give him the release command, but if you place the bowl under his nose he's still going to squirm and whine.
 
molvetica said:
The thought process I described was exactly that. It's not like "self control" is an on/off switch. In some situations your instincts simply take over.

I'm not "blaming" women at all, and I apologize if I've somehow implied that. I'm simply describing how these situations play out inside my male brain.
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Blood flow to the penis restricts blood flow to the brain making rational judgement very difficult.
 
royalan said:
But that woman isn't actually doing anything to make that man "uncomfortable." She's simply existing (and lets not pretend that men ONLY gawk at women wearing low-cut tops).

You keep trying to bring this back to brain function and men and women just being programmed different, but if that were the culprit then this would be a problem with all men. And it's not. Believe it or not, there are a LOT of men out there who know how to be courteous in their appreciation of an attractive person.
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His point is that either way it cannot be argued that it isn't natural brain function I think. Who is one to argue that men being courteous are simply not suppressing these urges successfully? How can this be proved? If you're suppressing it that's great but not many people have that ability to do successfully just like some that have to whack off soon to someone they just saw. There's been numerous studies about how much men on average think about sex, etc.

Testosterone plays a huge role in sex drive as well, which some men have more than others and way more than women do. So yes biologically it can be way easier for some men to avert sexual urges than others. Testosterone plays a huge role in sexual characteristics in men and these testosterone levels can vary wildly from man to man.

(I'm no expert on any of this but I do think reducing it to something so simple as on/off/suppression is wrong). For some it's naturally more difficult to suppress than others.
 
molvetica said:
You can choose not to "openly" gawk, sure.

But no, you can't stop yourself from taking another glance when you're already looking in the same direction. That's just going to happen and you're going to feel bad about it every time it does.

You can train your dog to not touch his food until you give him the release command, but if you place the bowl under his nose he's still going to squirm and whine.
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BUT NOBODY IS SAYING THAT. Almost EVERYONE in this thread has said it's ok to look, but not stare.

Your original point was that men stare because we're men and it's our "animal instincts" (rawwwr). And you're changing your position now.

His point is that either way it cannot be argued that it isn't natural brain function I think. Who is one to argue that men being courteous are simply not suppressing these urges successfully? How can this be proved? If you're suppressing it that's great but not many people have that ability to do successfully just like some that have to whack off soon to someone they just saw. There's been numerous studies about how much men on average think about sex, etc.

Testosterone plays a huge role in sex drive as well, which some men have more than others and way more than women do. So yes biologically it can be way easier for some men to avert sexual urges than others. Testosterone plays a huge role in sexual characteristics in men and these testosterone levels can vary wildly from man to man.

(I'm no expert on any of this but I do think reducing it to something so simple as on/off/suppression is wrong). For some it's naturally more difficult to suppress than others.
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Again, your inherent "maleness" has nothing to do with showing a little courtesy and not being creepy. I'm almost offended by this idea that men are such slaves to their hormone levels that something as simple as "don't stare" is literally impossible for us to do.

And, as I pointed out earlier, this belief largely ignores the existence of gay men. Most of us have just as much testosterone coursing through our veins but you don't see us staring like creeps at every hot dude that walks by because there's more social pressure for us not to.
 
similarly I was walking across campus and saw a man with no arm. I gave a quick glance and then looked away, the guy was looking at me and I'm sure he doesn't like being pin pointed there instantly but I can't help it, at least I was decent enough to immediately stop looking once my brain processed the information and keep walking normally.
 
Depends. One girl I used to know escalated it to showing me her perfect titties. Another simply told me its ok to look, though clearly I shouldn't stare.
 
royalan said:
BUT NOBODY IS SAYING THAT. Almost EVERYONE in this thread has said it's ok to look, but not stare.

Your original point was that men stare because we're men and it's our "animal instincts" (rawwwr). And you're changing your position now.
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I consider repeated glances "starring," which might be erroneous on my part I guess. It's just that the only reason I'm not starring is because I'm concentrating so hard on not starring. Every stolen glance then feels like a failure.

hobblygobbly said:
His point is that either way it cannot be argued that it isn't natural brain function I think. Who is one to argue that men being courteous are simply not suppressing these urges successfully? How can this be proved? If you're suppressing it that's great but not many people have that ability to do successfully just like some that have to whack off soon to someone they just saw. There's been numerous studies about how much men on average think about sex, etc.

Testosterone plays a huge role in sex drive as well, which some men have more than others and way more than women do. So yes biologically it can be way easier for some men to avert sexual urges than others. Testosterone plays a huge role in sexual characteristics in men and these testosterone levels can vary wildly from man to man.

(I'm no expert on any of this but I do think reducing it to something so simple as on/off/suppression is wrong). For some it's naturally more difficult to suppress than others.
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Great post.

royalan said:
And, as I pointed out earlier, this belief largely ignores the existence of gay men. Most of us have just as much testosterone coursing through our veins but you don't see us staring like creeps at every hot dude that walks by because there's more social pressure for us not to.
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I don't think it's that at all. It's more that male fashion typically doesn't have a man's sex characteristics out on display. If you were having dinner at a restaurant and a man at the next table looked like this:

JfaSAiUl.jpg


...you'd probably have a hard time suppressing your urge to stare. And even if you were successful, you would still have him in the back of your mind. You would know when he stood up and walked somewhere and you would know when he sat back down.
 
Some guys are just bad at controlling their eyes and face. I know I look but sometimes I stare without realizing it. Not everyone is good at controlling themselves. I have only been caught a few times and tend to just see with my peripheral visions a quick glance and move on.

However, on the topic of glances. Taking a second look is considered by a lot of women as being a creep. We can't help it, but at least some of us can control it. Some guys glance over and over while others just stare.
 
Sounds like the co-worker is trying out those Christmas clothes.

I just look and move on. Not many people at my workplace who can just suck in my vision like you're talking about, OP.

There have been a couple of total packages where I wondered if they were coming to work straight from the club, but I think HR got those people straightened out.
 
molvetica said:
I consider repeated glances "starring," which might be erroneous on my part I guess. It's just that the only reason I'm not starring is because I'm concentrating so hard on not starring. Every stolen glance then feels like a failure.



Great post.



I don't think it's that at all. It's more that male fashion typically doesn't have a man's sex characteristics out on display. If you were having dinner at a restaurant and a man at the next table looked like this:

JfaSAiUl.jpg


...you'd probably have a hard time suppressing your urge to stare. And even if you were successful, you would still have him in the back of your mind. You would know when he stood up and walked somewhere and you would know when he sat back down.
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Show me the socially acceptable female equivalent to that. Remember it would have to be something you'd typically see out at a dinner, don't post something from a red carpet.
 
Not only is it not wrong to look but it is expected and encouraged. Why else would they put it on display? Women know exactly what kind of attention they will be getting when they choose to go the low cut route for the day. Same as me choosing to wear a tight fitting shirt with free admission to the gun show. Comes with the territory.
 
molvetica said:
I don't think it's that at all. It's more that male fashion typically doesn't have a man's sex characteristics out on display. If you were having dinner at a restaurant and a man at the next table looked like this:

JfaSAiUl.jpg


...you'd probably have a hard time suppressing your urge to stare. And even if you were successful, you would still have him in the back of your mind. You would know when he stood up and walked somewhere and you would know when he sat back down.
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...so a woman wearing a low-cut top is equivalent to a man in nothing but a leather jock? Not the same thing at all.

Also, newsflash, but men wear clothing that put their sex characteristics on display all the time. Maybe you don't notice it because you're not looking.

Cooter said:
Not only is it not wrong to look but it is expected and encouraged. Why else would they put it on display? Women know exactly what kind of attention they will be getting when they choose to go the low cut route for the day. Same as me choosing to wear a tight fitting shirt with free admission to the gun show. Comes with the territory.
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There's something really problematic about looking at how a women dresses themselves in terms of what they are and aren't "putting on display."
 
SeanR1221 said:
Show me the socially acceptable female equivalent to that. Remember it would have to be something you'd typically see out at a dinner, don't post something from a red carpet.
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royalan said:
...so a woman wearing a low-cut top is the equivalent to a man in nothing but a leather jock? Not the same thing at all.
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Obviously that was an extreme example because the male equivalent of this type of fashion doesn't really exist:

G7yl7h1.jpg


...or if it does, I'm simply unaware of it and I apologize.
 
Cooter said:
Not only is it not wrong to look but it is expected and encouraged. Why else would they put it on display? Women know exactly what kind of attention they will be getting when they choose to go the low cut route for the day. Same as me choosing to wear a tight fitting shirt with free admission to the gun show. Comes with the territory.
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So if a woman is on a date with a man and dressed showing off a few of her finer assets; you conclude that she is dressing the way she is so that all guys everywhere will have an open invitation to check them out, and they are definitely dressing that way for these looks?

Or was she dressing that way to attract the male she is on a date with?

Furthermore; how do you know she is even attracted to men at all? How do you know she isn't only into women? Even if she isn't "into women".. perhaps she desires compliments from other women? (the same way guys aren't against other guys pointing out how strong they look at the gym for instance)

I think it's unreasonable for any human being to get angry or upset if people glance at them, notice them, etc. out in public. But there are an endless array of "reasons" why any given person would dress the way they do. It's just not a good look.

It's why you just.. be respectful... or don't.. it's not illegal to stare or leer or whistle or act in those manners, but don't expect people not to think you are a creep. And for the majority of men and the majority of women they interact with; staring/leering/whistling doesn't have a high success rate at actually attracting people.
 
molvetica said:
It goes both ways though...

Woman wears low cut top > man feels uncomfortable because he can't stop looking.
Man gawks at woman > woman feels uncomfortable because of the unwanted attention.

There's no "right" or "wrong" in this situation. Many women become frustrated because they simply cannot comprehend why some men can't help but stare. Many men become frustrated because they cannot comprehend why women don't expect the attention when they wear suggestive clothing. Our brains simply work differently.
Click to expand...
I think most of us can manage to not stare.
 
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