bodyboarder
Member
Netflix isn't banning anyone, just blocking ip ranges etc. big difference.
Sony Pictures mad at Netflixs failure to block overseas VPN users
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Netflix isn't banning anyone, just blocking ip ranges etc. big difference.
I've also used a VPN to buy 2 games off origin for cheaper prices. Watch Dogs and Sims 4, both were way cheaper than the US. Guess that makes me a dirty pirate for legally buying them with a VPN. Oh wait, EA doesn't care, and even helps you out if you somehow need a refund from doing that.
Marty Chinn
Member
It seemed like you were implying that Steam allows it, so it's ok. But clearly, Valve has issues with regional content too. At any rate buying a single key means you paid for a single license. It's not really any different than you buying a physical single copy of a game at that point.
To make it more comparable, Amazon would need to have a key generator that they were distributing keys they didn't pay for.
If I buy a Blu Ray, can I rent a theater and charge admission for people to watch it? No, because I haven't paid for the viewing rights even though it's my disc.
That is a fair distinction, but if the contract clearly states US distribution rights, are you suggesting that Netflix can distribute it as they see fit, including outside of the US, since it hasn't been settled yet?
peanutbutterlatte
Member
They might as well ban me, as I've said, there's no way in hell I'm paying an identical price to US users for vastly inferior content.
But I bought this key from a region they don't want me to buy it from. They set different prices for different regions and I went around that, making them lose money!
EDIT: also your analogies are horrible.
But you can set it up on your big screen TV and badass soundsystem and invite all your friends round to watch. Media companies would like to stop you doing that too.
jakonovski
Member
Marty, you really need to brush up on the difference between "customer breaches contract" and "customer abides by contract".
TTOOLL
Member
It's fucking 2015, I should be able to watch anything from any country, especially if I'm paying for a service like Netflix. This region blocking thing has no place nowadays, it's a wrong business model that drives people to piracy in some cases. Also, a bit OT, but I also don't get why some networks won't put their programming live on the Internet. They would have more people watching their fucking ads.
Marty Chinn
Member
Netflix is not selling a physical piece of content. Netflix is not selling a single user license. Netflix is not paying per view. You keep making the comparison of single unit items that you can account for in numbers and trying to compare it with general distribution rights. And you claim my analogies are horrible?
It's really simple. Netflix paid for US rights and then distributes it globally by turning a blind eye to foreign users accessing the content while Netflix collects the money. If Netflix wants to do that, they should pay for global rights.
Interesting stuff, and everyone ought to feel at least a little aggrieved at the situation, or at least fall somewhere on the continuum.
Customers, in the literal 'a person who pays money for goods or services' sense, ought to feel aggrieved at being compared to digital pirates by Sony. You'd have a hard time convincing someone who pays $15/month for a VPN and a Netflix subscription that anything they're doing is illegal, or contrary to any legal terms or contract/TOS specificities, much less convince them that they should care about those things in this very specific context.
As others have said, it's hard to give a shit in 2015 about geoblocking, region blocking and other such things that serve no positive end purpose/net gain for an end user. That's largely why GOG and GreenManGaming have had such great success too, with their 'Fair Price' policies, or region free pricing. It might be entitlement, but that is a pretty thin slight to make of someone.
Sony ought to feel aggrieved that they were paid a sum of money by Netflix, an amount that was probably agreed upon by Netflix saying to Sony 'we will serve your content to X amount of people in A, B and C territories', only then for Netflix to serve that content to X+Y amount of people in A, B, C and D/E/F territories. That's more than a bit cheeky on their behalf, I think it's fair to say. But I go back to the prior paragraph: paying customers don't - and shouldn't need to - care.
It's all very messy too: these contracts I'm sure are written largely in terms that can be traced back to times when contracts were 99% to do only with 'ships and sheeps', as I once heard a million years ago in uni. As is often the case, but perhaps no moreso than this, the goods and customers of these goods are far, far ahead of the law and binding legalese.
It'll become more and more interesting as Netflix rolls out in more countries. We're all very curiously and excitedly watching to see what Netflix Australia looks like, and at what price. Foxtel have dropped their prices pretty drastically this year to try and combat it, so that's a good sign, I guess. Content, access and price: It seems obvious, but if Netflix Au nail those three things they'll dominate our tiny market like no-one before them.
Customers, in the literal 'a person who pays money for goods or services' sense, ought to feel aggrieved at being compared to digital pirates by Sony. You'd have a hard time convincing someone who pays $15/month for a VPN and a Netflix subscription that anything they're doing is illegal, or contrary to any legal terms or contract/TOS specificities, much less convince them that they should care about those things in this very specific context.
As others have said, it's hard to give a shit in 2015 about geoblocking, region blocking and other such things that serve no positive end purpose/net gain for an end user. That's largely why GOG and GreenManGaming have had such great success too, with their 'Fair Price' policies, or region free pricing. It might be entitlement, but that is a pretty thin slight to make of someone.
Sony ought to feel aggrieved that they were paid a sum of money by Netflix, an amount that was probably agreed upon by Netflix saying to Sony 'we will serve your content to X amount of people in A, B and C territories', only then for Netflix to serve that content to X+Y amount of people in A, B, C and D/E/F territories. That's more than a bit cheeky on their behalf, I think it's fair to say. But I go back to the prior paragraph: paying customers don't - and shouldn't need to - care.
It's all very messy too: these contracts I'm sure are written largely in terms that can be traced back to times when contracts were 99% to do only with 'ships and sheeps', as I once heard a million years ago in uni. As is often the case, but perhaps no moreso than this, the goods and customers of these goods are far, far ahead of the law and binding legalese.
It'll become more and more interesting as Netflix rolls out in more countries. We're all very curiously and excitedly watching to see what Netflix Australia looks like, and at what price. Foxtel have dropped their prices pretty drastically this year to try and combat it, so that's a good sign, I guess. Content, access and price: It seems obvious, but if Netflix Au nail those three things they'll dominate our tiny market like no-one before them.
You sure type a lot of words that basically say the same thing over and over again. This is sony's fuck up plain and simple, they should have accounted for this shit before they gave them more content, it's not like this was a secret that people have been doing this FOR YEARS. If Sony didn't like it, they should have took their shit to Amazon. At this rate I would rather Sony take there ball and go home rather than them try and force some region locking bullshit over what Netflix already does.
I will now enjoy another 50 posts of your sony corporate ballwashing.
No, I am not.
Netflix are clearly not distributing to simply anybody who attempts to solicit their services from outside the USA. They are blocking non-US IP addresses remember.
However, people can access VPNs and appear as though they are in the USA. For Netflix, the detection of this can range from very easy to very difficult.
That Netflix cannot or will not police this is probably fait accomplit given how the internet works. And that Sony has noticed this and is sore that Netflix is making more money than they would otherwise is not an issue of illegality, it's an issue of Sony attempting to posture to negotiate a better contract in the future.
And the reason for this posturing is that Sony undervalued their content and are now sore that Netflix is making more money from it than they originally intended.
Marty Chinn
Member
I get that people want the content. I get that people outside of the US will be upset if they lose access to the content. I get that regional barriers should be removed.
But Sony isn't at fault here and they have a right to be upset with how Netflix takes advantage of rights that they haven't paid for. You want to blame Sony for whatever reason, fine, but Netflix needs to be blamed too. They aren't innocent in this. Sony has a valid complaint. It amazes me that people can't see this regardless if you hate Sony or not. Even if you disagree with how things should be, the agreement between Netflix and Sony is for US distribution rights only.
It amazes me that you don't notice you're the only one taking this stand. When you're the one getting quoted over and over by everyone in the thread, you're likely in the wrong, and not some special snowflake that only you can see the problem.
Marty Chinn
Member
I'm not though. Read the whole thread. A lot of people take the same stance that I do. It just happens to be super late at night/early in the morning and not as many people are up.
You pretty much are, unless you want to be grouped with "this is piracy!" People also. I don't think that's going to help your case much.
zorlaczerohero
Banned
It's completely different, it's more like a store selling a DVD distributed in the US to someone in Australia via a shipping forwarder. People abroad are still paying, and a part of that subscription will be used to pay Sony.
I personally think this is Fox, News Corp etc. groups putting pressure on Sony. They are the ones who stand to lose in the UK, Australia etc. They pay for exclusive rights to a program like Breaking Bad to be aired and then people watch it on Netflix. Big loss in advertising Dollars. This is the big reason Netflix hasn't come to Australia yet. Foxtel has the content so tightly wrapped up it's not allowed anywhere else. And when it does arrive, possibly this year, it's probably going to be garbage.
Ban Puncher
Member
A film is not available or has just recently premiered at the theatres in my country. I log onto a US Apple account and rent (not buy so I do not 'own' the license) the movie which is available on iTunes with my money.
Am I a pirate?
Am I a pirate?
It's pretty much boiled down to him saying "Leave poor Sony alooone!!!" since he started posting in this thread.
Marty Chinn
Member
Yep, I'm the only one... wait who are all these people in this thread....
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Still doesn't make your opinion any more agreeable. Why would you be a corporate bootlick honestly? They don't care about you. At all.
Justify circumventing regional restrictions?
Those Chinese streaming sites are legal too (they paid for these licenses). Using a VPN to get a Chinese IP address is also legal. Now tell me, is it okay for you to go to those Chinese sites to watch U.S. shows for free?
Marty Chinn
Member
Netflix isn't a charity. They're both in it for the money and both trying to maximize their profits. Why do I care? Because as a US Netflix subscriber, if Netflix gives the content providers the middle finger about honoring regional distribution. content providers are either going to raise rates or drop content which then affects me as a Netflix subscriber. I know neither company gives a shit about me or any of us, but that doesn't change that Sony has a valid complaint against Netflix and that's just objectively speaking.
You keep comparing single use license payment to general distribution rights. They aren't the same thing.
Ban Puncher
Member
You keep moving the goalposts.
Marty Chinn
Member
No I haven't. I've always maintained that in the case of individual items, you're paying money that is going to the content provider directly. That isn't the case with general distribution rights where those are fixed in the fee rate.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Netflix payments to Sony must be proportional to their amount of paying users, and thus their revenue. So logic would dictate that Sony in fact does get paid for the overseas users, just like it does for the US users. Problem?
Its not.
http://ir.netflix.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1065280-14-6&CIK=1065280
The long-term and fixed cost nature of our content licenses may limit our operating flexibility and could adversely affect our liquidity and results of operation.
In connection with obtaining streaming content, we typically enter into multi-year licenses with studios and other content providers, the payment terms of which are not tied to member usage or the size of our member base (“fixed cost”but which may be tied to such factors as titles licensed and/or theatrical exhibition receipts. Such commitments are included in the Contractual Obligations section of Item 7 Management's Discussion and Analysis of Financial Condition and Results of Operations. Given the multiple-year duration and largely fixed cost nature of content licenses, if member acquisition and retention do not meet our expectations, our margins may be adversely impacted. Payment terms for streaming licenses, especially programming that is initially available in the applicable territory on our service (“original programming”
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Region locking is such an outdated concept. "Local" and "international" distribution rights shouldn't be distinguishable.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
We live on the same planet which is irreversibly linked by the internet. Segregation basically isn't happening.
jakonovski
Member
It is perfectly ok, and there is nothing wrong with it.
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
peanutbutterlatte
Member
VPN companies getting greedy? It happened a lot over the last few years, you try switching your DNS around and get an advertisement for a paid service.
The world is still split into completely separate countries with their own TV stations. Whilst that is the case this problem will always exist.
smileyforall220
Member
You know, you could at least phrase your argument better than repeatedly attacking someone's character like Marty, and argue your view point.
Nobody is saying that VPNs are illegal. Nobody is saying that Netflix is inherently illegal.
Netflix is breaching contract with Sony by illegally distributing their works to international countries, so that Netflix can illegally make more money off of off the grid users.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
I...never really pay attention to those x3. I recognized AMC's tho.
Mr. Mister
Member
Why are you such a corporate bootlick? Netflix has proven they don't care about you or they'd be providing your country a better service saving you money and time.
adamsappel
Member
See, Marty doesn't love Sony. He just hates you.
I pay Netflix in the Netherlands, so I get access to their content they got rights to steam in the Dutch territory.
By your logic, I'm illegally watching Netflix everytime I turn it on when I'm abroad. My payment doesn't go to that local distribution, I didn't pay to watch the local content, however, I am doing so regardless, because I'm paying Netflix to provide a service.
Netflix could tie content to an account, where Dutch accounts are only capable of viewing content available in Holland. But that provides a problem, because Netflix is contractually not licensed to broadcast certain content outside of the Netherlands, so we end up with a situation where I only get content that's available locally and in Holland. Which could be miserably little.
In this case, Netflix chose the most consumer friendly option, and not crack down on VPN users, which could hurt legitimate customers. Detecting VPN and proxy users is a pain, and not some switch you can turn on. Distributors need to let go of localized distribution contracts and embrace the fact that this thing called the internet has caught up and even surpassed their prehistoric business model. Hell, the only reason blurays support region coding is because Hollywood wouldn't fly without it.
I remember a similar situation years ago, where movies would come out in Holland, while the US already had a home media release. Distributors would crack down on importers of those VHS tapes, because Hollywood couldn't grasp the concept of a globally connected world, and it still can't.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
If I can no longer access the US netflix then I won't continue paying for access because the UK catalogue is crap. That's the bottom line for me to be honest.
I'm sure Sony aren't the only ones complaining about this. It would be great to live in a world where every country has the same distribution and exclusivity deals.. But this isn't gonna happen any time soon.
In the end, I don't see this lasting long. Either Netflix pays the studios more money, or they end up losing more content, or they crack down on VPNs.
In the end, I don't see this lasting long. Either Netflix pays the studios more money, or they end up losing more content, or they crack down on VPNs.
Same here in Holland. The moment they start chasing VPN users, there goes my subscription. Fair deal i think.
I don't understand the argument that Sony will never see the money from the VPN-using subscribers.
As far as Netflix is concerned, I'm a US subscriber, no different from John Smith in Kentucky or Jane Doe in California. My money gives Netflix the revenue it uses to purchase the rights.
What Sony is angry about is that it weakens their ability to sell the rights to an Australian company for a ridiculously inflated price, like they have been doing for decades with all their content, digital or otherwise. Well guess what, the Internet and globalisation says that's not so easy any more. So you'll forgive me if I'm not crying tears for Sony.
And you'll also forgive me if i don't listen to the Americans on here who have never had to deal with the shoddy treatment that everyone outside the US gets when it comes to pretty much any content. We've been gouged for years.
As far as Netflix is concerned, I'm a US subscriber, no different from John Smith in Kentucky or Jane Doe in California. My money gives Netflix the revenue it uses to purchase the rights.
What Sony is angry about is that it weakens their ability to sell the rights to an Australian company for a ridiculously inflated price, like they have been doing for decades with all their content, digital or otherwise. Well guess what, the Internet and globalisation says that's not so easy any more. So you'll forgive me if I'm not crying tears for Sony.
And you'll also forgive me if i don't listen to the Americans on here who have never had to deal with the shoddy treatment that everyone outside the US gets when it comes to pretty much any content. We've been gouged for years.
While ideologically that makes sense, the advent of the internet doesn't just magically solve the realities of content distribution. Sure there are systemic issues with parties not wanting to move the needle, but there are real and valid issues that prevent this sort of thing from happening.
Let me give a simple example. We have a studio 'Sorny' that creates a show. They want to distribute it all over the world. However, there isn't a single company with distribution capabilities across the globe. Now enter 'Webflix'. They have a service that includes the US, UK, Canada, and Japan. Sorny would love to have it available everywhere, but they can't ask Webflix to give them reasonable value for worldwide distribution for two reasons. One, Webflix doesn't directly offer their service everywhere and will only pay for the areas they intend to directly offer the given content. Two, they literally can't afford the world-wide distribution valuation. Webflix is a growing business, but they do not have infinite reserves. They need to grow revenue by slowly expanding to different markets, increasing the userbase in each region. Once they have sufficient subscribers in a given region they can then add more and more content there.
See where this is going?
Now move back to Sorny. They then want to offer this content in other regions. First problem is contract negotiations take time. You can't expect multiple companies of different sizes to get things done at the same time. Worse, Sorny's negotiating power is negatively impacted because these new distributors argue that people in their region are using VPN's to access Webflix, and they can't guarantee the number of users Sorny is claiming in their valuation. Now negotiations further stall.
Then we consider that Sorny has also contracted said content for usage on TV. It has all the same issues only worse. Sorny isn't in control of when that content is shown. In each region it's up to these distributors / networks. Since TV is still the big game versus streaming, Sorny has to place precedence with them and therefore contracting streaming rights is further stalled until after the networks rights are over or they pass on the content.
Now think of movies. There is then multiple other layers of distribution and rights that have to be considered.
etc
etc
etc
Basically until there is a single company that can literally distribute globally, this mess is going to continue. And said company would have to actually offer reasonable valuations, otherwise Sorny will continue to go with separate distributors. For this single company to have that kind of money, they'd actually have to be well established in nearly all regions in order to have sufficient revenue.
It's really a clusterfuck
peanutbutterlatte
Member
That's fine then, I'll just take the service they're giving the other country.
Saintguine
Member
Banning non-Americans from using American Netflix would just result in people torrenting the TV shows and movies like they did before.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Luckily our PS3 which is set up for US Netflix still has access to it so my wife is pleased as she much prefers the US content.
If however it does get cut off im not sure what we will do, it can be really hard to find good things to watch on the UK version (we have the UK version on the PS4) so chances are we will probably cancel it.
If however it does get cut off im not sure what we will do, it can be really hard to find good things to watch on the UK version (we have the UK version on the PS4) so chances are we will probably cancel it.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I'm currently watching Friends on my Wii U, so it hasn't got to me yet. UK Netflix is atrocious though, I wouldn't ever be satisfied with just that.
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