Halo 5: Guardians Beta Thread | Hot Red on Blue Action

Calm Killer said:
Let’s talk about the Halo 5 Ranking system. I have put about eight (8) hours of gameplay time into the beta since I initially was able to join as a preview member. The system, once I was ranked reminded me of a clone of the Starcraft system. And since finding out that Joshua Menke was a developer behind this CSR system, which makes perfect sense. You start with the 10 game placement matches which allow the user to be properly placed with other like skilled players. The system ultimately is based on winning and also who/what rank you are winning against. But does the system really work properly?

The system, understandably so, is team based, so the old school factor seems to be gone in the fact that if I dominate as a single player I still gain ground, or so it seemed. In the new CSR system it is all about wins. My firsthand experience was fine as I went in solo and came out with 7 wins and 3 loses in my placement matches. This gave me a silver III ranking. This is the ranking I have kept ever since. I mostly play solo with randoms and usually finish first or second on my team and mostly with a positive K/D. I though the system is pretty good.

That was until my coworker started playing the beta when everyone was able to access it. I am admittedly a more skilled player than him. He will be the first to admit that. I am no Halo master by any imagination. I would say I average 14 kills and 10 deaths per game. My Coworker is more of a 7 kills and 12 deaths kind of player. We played 8 of his 10 placement matches together. He went 1&1 outside of our games and finished 9&1 in the placement matches. He ended up being ranked a Gold II even though I stayed a Silver III. This is where the system feels broken. He helped win each of the games that we were in, but never dominated any of the games. I won’t go as far as say I carried the team as we had other randoms that helped push us towards the wins with good team play, but if I dominate in the game and he does not play at the same level, it feels wrong to rank him at a higher level.

It is problematic for him as well as he is now going into the game solo with a gold II rank and he is not a gold II player. He has complained to me about it because he just gets demolished in those games when he has no team communication or effort.
I believe I understand the reasoning behind his ranking though, as he was unranked when we were being match, so the system paired him against players of my skill/rank. Because we won those games against higher level players he became a higher rank. So does this mean that 3 semi pro players could carry a player to a semi pro level just by teaming with a new account and winning? Does the system really not take into account individual players results in the team game? If player A goes 20-2 and player B goes 7-18 they still win the game does player B receive the same points as player A?
How are the teams paired when multiple players on a team have multiple ranks? The rankings are Iron – Bronze – Silver- Gold – Onyx as the lay person ranks and then the top 1500 players fall into the semi pro and the top 200 being in the pro rank. Let’s just play around and say each ranking system has a number assigned to it. Iron equals 1, Bronze 2, Silver 3, Gold 4, and Onyx a 5. Semi Pro and Pro players play in the own sandbox. If we play a 4 vs 4 match do the ranking levels have to match? Example: 2 onyx, 1 gold, 1 silver one team would equal 17 points for team A So team B would also have to equal 17 point in some combination? 3 onyx and 1 bronze would equal 17. This is a simple look at the matchmaking, but it makes me wonder if this is a similar, although simplistic algorithm that they might be using. If that is the case how does this benefit the one user that would be paired with team B that is a lower rank? This is all speculation on my part so I might be completely off base here, but it brings potential concerns. Is the ranking system destroying solo play by focusing on team rankings and not solo performance?

So for the wall of text, I just had a great conversation with my coworkers about the ranking system today and I wanted to share it with everyone. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I would reach out to Josh on twitter or here. He has been pretty forthcoming with details but he no longer works for 343 so can't speak to some if the finer details I guess.
343 should breakdown the ranking system at some point too. I am surprised/disappointed they haven't yet.
 
I think I've finally been converted to #teamnosprint, after playing H2A this week. I think if they increased the base movement speed and left out sprint, the game would still work well even on the big maps. I know this, because since playing H2A, I've been playing with pretty much no sprint and the game works well with thruster and all the other abilities.

If they keep it, I would like it more as a dash that last like 3-4 seconds for the purpose of making some jumps and stuff, but can't sprint infinitely.

Either way, think the game is fun so I'm cool if they decide to leave it in.
 
Calm Killer said:
Let’s talk about the Halo 5 Ranking system. I have put about eight (8) hours of gameplay time into the beta since I initially was able to join as a preview member. The system, once I was ranked reminded me of a clone of the Starcraft system. And since finding out that Joshua Menke was a developer behind this CSR system, which makes perfect sense. You start with the 10 game placement matches which allow the user to be properly placed with other like skilled players. The system ultimately is based on winning and also who/what rank you are winning against. But does the system really work properly?

The system, understandably so, is team based, so the old school factor seems to be gone in the fact that if I dominate as a single player I still gain ground, or so it seemed. In the new CSR system it is all about wins. My firsthand experience was fine as I went in solo and came out with 7 wins and 3 loses in my placement matches. This gave me a silver III ranking. This is the ranking I have kept ever since. I mostly play solo with randoms and usually finish first or second on my team and mostly with a positive K/D. I though the system is pretty good.

That was until my coworker started playing the beta when everyone was able to access it. I am admittedly a more skilled player than him. He will be the first to admit that. I am no Halo master by any imagination. I would say I average 14 kills and 10 deaths per game. My Coworker is more of a 7 kills and 12 deaths kind of player. We played 8 of his 10 placement matches together. He went 1&1 outside of our games and finished 9&1 in the placement matches. He ended up being ranked a Gold II even though I stayed a Silver III. This is where the system feels broken. He helped win each of the games that we were in, but never dominated any of the games. I won’t go as far as say I carried the team as we had other randoms that helped push us towards the wins with good team play, but if I dominate in the game and he does not play at the same level, it feels wrong to rank him at a higher level.

It is problematic for him as well as he is now going into the game solo with a gold II rank and he is not a gold II player. He has complained to me about it because he just gets demolished in those games when he has no team communication or effort.
I believe I understand the reasoning behind his ranking though, as he was unranked when we were being match, so the system paired him against players of my skill/rank. Because we won those games against higher level players he became a higher rank. So does this mean that 3 semi pro players could carry a player to a semi pro level just by teaming with a new account and winning? Does the system really not take into account individual players results in the team game? If player A goes 20-2 and player B goes 7-18 they still win the game does player B receive the same points as player A?
How are the teams paired when multiple players on a team have multiple ranks? The rankings are Iron – Bronze – Silver- Gold – Onyx as the lay person ranks and then the top 1500 players fall into the semi pro and the top 200 being in the pro rank. Let’s just play around and say each ranking system has a number assigned to it. Iron equals 1, Bronze 2, Silver 3, Gold 4, and Onyx a 5. Semi Pro and Pro players play in the own sandbox. If we play a 4 vs 4 match do the ranking levels have to match? Example: 2 onyx, 1 gold, 1 silver one team would equal 17 points for team A So team B would also have to equal 17 point in some combination? 3 onyx and 1 bronze would equal 17. This is a simple look at the matchmaking, but it makes me wonder if this is a similar, although simplistic algorithm that they might be using. If that is the case how does this benefit the one user that would be paired with team B that is a lower rank? This is all speculation on my part so I might be completely off base here, but it brings potential concerns. Is the ranking system destroying solo play by focusing on team rankings and not solo performance?

So for the wall of text, I just had a great conversation with my coworkers about the ranking system today and I wanted to share it with everyone. Thoughts?
Click to expand...

What do you mean by the "old school factor seems to be gone"?

The rank your friend has is really a combination of you and him during his first 10 matches, and of course the other 2 players on your team, but they are random. Ideally, he will de-rank to where he converges on a rank where he wins 50% of his matches.

But your idea of combining ranks to determine matches is most likely very close. That is how it has worked in past Halo games.
 
JaggedSac said:
What do you mean by the "old school factor seems to be gone"?

The rank your friend has is really a combination of you and him during his first 10 matches, and of course the other 2 players on your team, but they are random. Ideally, he will de-rank to where he converges on a rank where he wins 50% of his matches.
Click to expand...

It's a weird side effect that a party of players will all converge on their average rank.
 
This game would be 10x better with no sprint and faster movement. Man it would be fun. Sprint just isn't necessary.
 
i hate to be that guy but i just endured two of the worst matches in a while with teammates that ACTIVELY avoided sticking together against teams that were glued together. nonstop me getting shit on by 2-4 opponents with no teammates in sight despite having 1 or 2 with me only a second or two before the engagement (that i seeked out). UGH, i dont think any game gets me as raged as a bad halo match...
 
Cow said:
This game would be 10x better with no sprint and faster movement. Man it would be fun. Sprint just isn't necessary.
Click to expand...

Most of the jumps wouldn't be possible without sprint, the maps have been designed around it, it ain't goin any where.
 
Love it or hate it, I'm pretty sure 343 put such an emphasis on team wins in matchmaking because they want people to form teams and play these games as a team.
 
re' alternating maps in the matchmaking lobby

Eric WK said:
No, that definitely does not happen.
Click to expand...

before i learned the back out with party chat trick and stayed in lobbies post match the game almost always alternated maps for me. like seriously, in my 5-6 hours with the early access i think i only had a map repeat twice in a row during a session ONCE. i assumed that was part of the search algorithm and why matching took a bit longer. now of course i back out and its truly random and i get the same map repeated often.
 
I finally have time to play and the game will not find a match for me. Gives me an error saying there's no enough players in the playlist
 
DarthWalden said:
Love it or hate it, I'm pretty sure 343 put such an emphasis on team wins in matchmaking because they want people to form teams and play these games as a team.
Click to expand...

with my life (husband, father of of two young children, career) i cant regularly join with people or i dont want to submit others to my erratic schedule (i'd hate to set up a party and bail if i have to a match later). so, i get the reasoning behind it, i'm fine with it and it makes sense, it just doesnt always work out for my own personal benefit --- and it shouldnt. still, FRUSTRATING.
 
Tawpgun said:
I finally have time to play and the game will not find a match for me. Gives me an error saying there's no enough players in the playlist
Click to expand...

its begun. someone build a population graph, sprint killed halo again!
 
Ramirez said:
Most of the jumps wouldn't be possible without sprint, the maps have been designed around it, it ain't goin any where.
Click to expand...

If you watch Ninja stream, he's been doing most of the jumps without sprint. There are SOME, but you can still play the game without sprint if they move up the movement speed a bit. I'd actually like something like a little dash, that wears out after a couple seconds.

In my mind, it'd be something like double tap A (bumperjumper) to do a little dash and A would be for slide or something.
 
Cow said:
This game would be 10x better with no sprint and faster movement. Man it would be fun. Sprint just isn't necessary.
Click to expand...

No, it wouldn't.

Casually walking everywhere (even if base movement is faster) feels so slow when you go back to it. Played Blood Gulch last night and had an agonizing walk back to the base from the rocket area. So slowwwwww.

No sprint works decent on small 4v4 maps, but not for anything else.

Also if you remove sprint, add an animation that looks like your Spartan is actually moving and not just walking their Spartan dog.

Anywho, as said, 343 has made up their mind.
 
Cross posting:

Question is, would you drop it for a BR? I believe most people don't drop the BR for the DMR, so I'm interested in what people think if we had DMR starts.

  • More difficult to use than the BR.
  • BR is a 4sk compared to the 5sk of the DMR.
  • Smart Scope may balance the 3x zoom by obstructing your view compared to classic zoom.
  • BR has a swipe-shot benefit.
  • BR feels more effective at range in this game compared to previous iterations.


#NoMotionTracker
 
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
Cross posting:

Question is, would you drop it for a BR? I believe most people don't drop the BR for the DMR, so I'm interested in what people think if we had DMR starts.

  • More difficult to use than the BR.
  • BR is a 4sk compared to the 5sk of the DMR.
  • Smart Scope may balance the 3x zoom by obstructing your view compared to classic zoom.
  • BR has a swipe-shot benefit.
  • BR feels more effective at range in this game compared to previous iterations.


#NoMotionTracker
Click to expand...
DMR starts are going to be a mess. That gun is very unwieldy outside of long range encounters and sword will become even more unstoppable. I would quickly swap DMR for BR and possibly even AR just to be more well-rounded.
 
FUNKNOWN iXi said:
Cross posting:

Question is, would you drop it for a BR? I believe most people don't drop the BR for the DMR, so I'm interested in what people think if we had DMR starts.

  • More difficult to use than the BR.
  • BR is a 4sk compared to the 5sk of the DMR.
  • Smart Scope may balance the 3x zoom by obstructing your view compared to classic zoom.
  • BR has a swipe-shot benefit.
  • BR feels more effective at range in this game compared to previous iterations.


#NoMotionTracker
Click to expand...

i've gone back and forth between the two, but i think i've once again settled on dmr >>> br. i get far more peeeerfect medals using it, its more reliable unscoped, its rate of fire is faster. its terrific.
 
Ramirez said:
Most of the jumps wouldn't be possible without sprint, the maps have been designed around it, it ain't goin any where.
Click to expand...

Does not make it right. Sprint is absolutely terrible and not meant for Halo. Near everyone is sprinting all the damn time on the maps until you meet opposition. It's horrible for play and certainly does not make the game more fun or improve it, so I have no idea why it is even in besides trying to be like Call of Duty.

There is an update for the beta.
 
Well I like where 343 is taking Halo 5. The beta is so addictive too me and that's coming from day one halo player since Combat Evolved. When I wake up the first thing I wanna do is play and try to rank up to onyx. Can't wait to see the sp mode.
 
GillyH said:
Does not make it right. Sprint is absolutely terrible and not meant for Halo. Near everyone is sprinting all the damn time on the maps until you meet opposition. It's horrible for play and certainly does not make the game more fun or improve it, so I have no idea why it is even in besides trying to be like Call of Duty.

There is an update for the beta.
Click to expand...

yeah, well, thats just, like, your opinion man
 
Finally spent some real time with the beta. Overall, I'm really digging it. For a real beta, it is on an incredible track and makes me very excited about Halo's future again despite the big failures of the MCC.

Pros:

+Every new ability feels right, especially the boost/evade and clamor. The ADS keeps me moving more than the old zoom method and looks extremely slick visually, Sprint with the Shield penalty is excellent and has me using it very differently than in Halo 4, and the ground pound and charge are incredibly well balanced.

+The core gunplay is incredibly tight and having even load outs and abilities across the board makes the series feel like Halo again.

+I think they really nailed the weapons, loving that grabbing an SMG or AR is a viable option in specific scenarios. I definitely prefer single shot weapons, but Halo has long been too rallied around those guns, I think Halo 5 is doing something very right bringing the full arsenal into play.

+I was really skeptical about battle chatter but I'm totally sold on it now. I think they should let players turn it off for sure, but for me, it does triple duty of being slightly helpful, make the game feel more competitive and communal, and getting callouts like "nice teamwork" when you get an assist is just kinda great.

+Graphics are really nice, especially at this stage and it running at a lower res. I'm particularly impressed with the lighting with the various subtle flares and material effects.

Cons:

-The maps feel very much so like beta maps. Obviously, that's the actual case so I'm not worried yet, but Regret and Eden are visually muddled in many areas, Regret in particular I think needs more to distinguish the various areas of the map as I'm often turned around, and both need some serious reworking to the flow of traversal. Halo maps, even the lesser ones, have always felt like every angle, wall, and room, is purposeful -- I get a very hodgepodge random placement vibe from many elements on those maps.

-Something needs to be done about visibility in dark areas, better map light placement maybe, or more ambient light in the dark -- but Eden shouldn't have so much of the map that hard to see.

-Breakout needs something to it. I can't put my finger on what that is, there's a good core in there -- but it's lacking in a certain fun factor and suspense that I think it totally could have.

-The cocky start/end game screens of the spartans high fiving and shit has got to go. They could do the exact same format with less braggadocios behavior and more things like "cocking a weapon" "putting the gun against your shoulder", "looking stoic to the side", or whatever instead of "high fiving brofisting hand waving chest bumping" stuff. Even for the Halo/CoD demographic, it's pretty childish.
 
reddish said:
Finally spent some real time with the beta. Overall, I'm really digging it. For a real beta, it is on an incredible track and makes me very excited about Halo's future again despite the big failures of the MCC.

Pros:

+Every new ability feels right, especially the boost/evade and clamor. The ADS keeps me moving more than the old zoom method and looks extremely slick visually, Sprint with the Shield penalty is excellent and has me using it very differently than in Halo 4, and the ground pound and charge are incredibly well balanced.

+The core gunplay is incredibly tight and having even load outs and abilities across the board makes the series feel like Halo again.

+I think they really nailed the weapons, loving that grabbing an SMG or AR is a viable option in specific scenarios. I definitely prefer single shot weapons, but Halo has long been too rallied around those guns, I think Halo 5 is doing something very right bringing the full arsenal into play.

+I was really skeptical about battle chatter but I'm totally sold on it now. I think they should let players turn it off for sure, but for me, it does triple duty of being slightly helpful, make the game feel more competitive and communal, and getting callouts like "nice teamwork" when you get an assist is just kinda great.

+Graphics are really nice, especially at this stage and it running at a lower res. I'm particularly impressed with the lighting with the various subtle flares and material effects.

Cons:

-The maps feel very much so like beta maps. Obviously, that's the actual case so I'm not worried yet, but Regret and Eden are visually muddled in many areas, Regret in particular I think needs more to distinguish the various areas of the map as I'm often turned around, and both need some serious reworking to the flow of traversal. Halo maps, even the lesser ones, have always felt like every angle, wall, and room, is purposeful -- I get a very hodgepodge random placement vibe from many elements on those maps.

-Something needs to be done about visibility in dark areas, better map light placement maybe, or more ambient light in the dark -- but Eden shouldn't have so much of the map that hard to see.

-Breakout needs something to it. I can't put my finger on what that is, there's a good core in there -- but it's lacking in a certain fun factor and suspense that I think it totally could have.

-The cocky start/end game screens of the spartans high fiving and shit has got to go. They could do the exact same format with less braggadocios behavior and more things like "cocking a weapon" "putting the gun against your shoulder", "looking stoic to the side", or whatever instead of "high fiving brofisting hand waving chest bumping" stuff. Even for the Halo/CoD demographic, it's pretty childish.
Click to expand...

i agree with virtually all of this (only standout being i actually think the map design/layout is quite good) and would only add a few fairly minor additions to round out my own impressions (i'd like to see a slight decrease to scoped AR/SMG range, one nade at spawn, and no height indications on radar). as far as breakout goes, someone mentioned (iirc in the community thread) that a nice addition would be to have killed teammates be placed in a "jail" with a neutral location where you could free them ala the real life capture the flag variant. i like this idea, or something similar. definitely needs to be something to fight over/for
 
GillyH said:
Does not make it right. Sprint is absolutely terrible and not meant for Halo. Near everyone is sprinting all the damn time on the maps until you meet opposition. It's horrible for play and certainly does not make the game more fun or improve it, so I have no idea why it is even in besides trying to be like Call of Duty.

There is an update for the beta.
Click to expand...

I barely sprint at all and do fine. I also rarely ever deal with people sprinting away in this game, I think it's a non issue really. My point though was that 343 has designed their maps with it in mind, so no amount of complaining is going to get it removed.

FUNKNOWN iXi said:
Damn really? I find the BR to be the easiest and best it has ever been lol
Click to expand...

I'm sure it's because I play exclusively with West Coast people, and I'm on the East.

Wrecking with an AR, lol.
 
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