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[prag16]

That's a good point. Put succinctly too

You don't need to keep back pedaling. Stick to your guns, man. The Freeh report had issues, and people here are stating things as fact that were never actually determined or proven (e.g. "Paterno was harboring Sandusky whilst knowing ongoing rapes were occurring."). We don't know what and how much he knew at what time. The Freeh report hastily drew a bunch of tenuous conclusions to justify the NCAA's sanctions. The jury is still out so to speak in regard to a lot of important details.

 

[Instro]

Fuck everyone involved. Scum.

 

[Blader]

I'm a Penn State alum, and this was a complicated situation. Lots of reductionist and ignorant commentary here. The Freeh report had a lot of issues.

Besides, this ordeal basically killed Paterno.

I'm in no way minimizing how monstrous Sandusky is/was. As for McQueary, I crossed paths with him a time or two while attending PSU and he's basically a big dumb meathead. It is what it is from that standpoint.

Inb4 I'm called a child rape enabler.

Sure sound like it.

I called this guy dying within a year of this news coming out.

Man, some of you guys are crazy over this. He reported to his higher-ups, and is cleared of responsibility past this. Where's the "fuck athletic director guy" chants? Because he didn't go on a personal campaign against someone he was very close to, you all want him to suffer forever

I always thought it was weird that the fallout had to be felt by the entire team and school. Never made sense to me. The NCAA is realizing a man's name shouldn't be tarnished based on one thing he didn't do, but be remembered for many things he did do.

You're so flippant about being labeled a rape apologist, yet this last sentence makes it clear that you think Paterno's wins carry more weight and greater priority than the act of covering up child rape for the sake of preserving a football program.

 

[Chumly]

Paterno kept quiet about child rape to protect his program. Those wins were obtained through the suppression and silencing of sexual abuse victims. Paterno harbored a rapist within his athletic program. He gave Sandusky access to more children and turned the other way in the name of winning and prestige.

Also, Joe Paterno was the most powerful and respected person at Penn State. The buck stopped with him.

Exactly. This wasn't exactly some fucking peon at the bottom. He was fully in charge of the football program and the athletic director was going to do with whatever he wanted.

It's embarrassing that all these people are pretending that he could send an email and turn the cheek.

 

[adamsappel]

I called this guy dying within a year of this news coming out.

Man, some of you guys are crazy over this. He reported to his higher-ups, and is cleared of responsibility past this. Where's the "fuck athletic director guy" chants? Because he didn't go on a personal campaign against someone he was very close to, you all want him to suffer forever

I always thought it was weird that the fallout had to be felt by the entire team and school. Never made sense to me. The NCAA is realizing a man's name shouldn't be tarnished based on one thing he didn't do, but be remembered for many things he did do.

I'm laughing at the idea that Paterno had "higher-ups" at Penn State.

 

[prag16]

Sure sound like it.

Congrats on the insightful ad hominem.

 

[HalfBakedProphet]

Congrats on the insightful ad hominem.

you're totally above character assassination, right?

As for McQueary, I crossed paths with him a time or two while attending PSU and he's basically a big dumb meathead.

If only that big dumb meathead had just kept his head down and mouth shut

 

[Blader]

Congrats on the insightful ad hominem.

Sandusky raped those kids, Paterno knew, and didn't stop him, turn him in, etc. Is any of that really disputable?

I highlight the "I'm a Penn State alum" because only someone with a significant personal investment in that school, that team, and that coach could be undergoing the major cognitive dissonance it takes to not come to grips with the above. And instead grasp frantically at how the report had errors, it had to have been flawed, and well the whole thing killed Paterno anyway, and stick to your guns man, etc. That shit is exactly the reason why victims raped by people of power or celebrity can never speak up without fear of being dismissed or derided.

 

[prag16]

you're totally above character assassination, right?

Not exactly the same thing, and you know it. And you know nothing about my contact with him, so you're in no position to credibly comment, really.

 

[Stinkles]

I called this guy dying within a year of this news coming out.

Man, some of you guys are crazy over this. He reported to his higher-ups, and is cleared of responsibility past this. Where's the "fuck athletic director guy" chants? Because he didn't go on a personal campaign against someone he was very close to, you all want him to suffer forever

I always thought it was weird that the fallout had to be felt by the entire team and school. Never made sense to me. The NCAA is realizing a man's name shouldn't be tarnished based on one thing he didn't do, but be remembered for many things he did do.

I'm not going to jump on you but I'd love it if you could look at your post in full context.

Paterno covered up a child rapist and protected him because he felt the football program was more important than the rape of a child. And that's a pretty generous reading of the situation.

I'm not glad he's dead but he deserves to have his legacy destroyed because he helped cover up the rape of children and protect a child rapist. And he did that to protect a school football program.


He deserves to have his legacy destroyed. Had he lived, he'd deserve serious legal action and investigation too.

 

[Tallshortman]

Who cares? To 90% of the population, his legacy is in shambles either way

It enables these Penn state idiots who think they're in the right. Putting a game before real tragedies. NCAA is a complete joke after reducing their penalty and now this. smh

 

[prag16]

Paterno covered up a child rapist and protected him because he felt the football program was more important than the rape of a child. And that's a pretty generous reading of the situation.

Generous? That's actually the worst possible reading of the situation, and yet to be proven by anything really solid.

Sandusky raped those kids, Paterno knew, and didn't stop him, turn him in, etc. Is any of that really disputable?

I highlight the "I'm a Penn State alum" because only someone with a significant personal investment in that school, that team, and that coach could be undergoing the major cognitive dissonance it takes to not come to grips with the above. And instead grasp frantically at how the report had errors, it had to have been flawed, and well the whole thing killed Paterno anyway, and stick to your guns man, etc. That shit is exactly the reason why victims raped by people of power or celebrity can never speak up without fear of being dismissed or derided.

Being invested in it also means I'm less likely to make poorly informed snap judgements. Yes, plenty IS in dispute. No cognitive dissonance required. The view from the high horse must be grand.

I'll stop here, as I'm vastly outnumbered, and not much good can come of continuing. Nobody will be swayed.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Being invested in it also means I'm less likely to make poorly informed snap judgements. Yes, plenty IS in dispute. No cognitive dissonance required. The view from the high horse must be grand.

I'll stop here, as I'm vastly outnumbered, and not much good can come of continuing. Nobody will be swayed.

Bullshit.

 

[Tallshortman]

Being invested in it also means I'm less likely to make poorly informed snap judgements. Yes, plenty IS in dispute. No cognitive dissonance required. The view from the high horse must be grand.

I'll stop here, as I'm vastly outnumbered, and not much good can come of continuing. Nobody will be swayed.

lol the fact you're vastly outnumbered is a good reason for you to look in the mirror and ask why instead of accusing us of being biased and prone to uninformed judgements because we didn't go to Penn state. Your statement comes down to saying a judge being related to the person on trial makes him/her less biased.

 

[Blader]

Being invested in it also means I'm less likely to make poorly informed snap judgements. Yes, plenty IS in dispute. No cognitive dissonance required. The view from the high horse must be grand.

I'll stop here, as I'm vastly outnumbered, and not much good can come of continuing. Nobody will be swayed.

What snap judgment? The news broke over three years ago, not three days ago. And actually a personal investment in a case does affect your judgment, that's what a conflict of interest is. (It's also kind of the point of the whole impartial jury thing.)

 

[GameGuru59]

It's not. The cult-like atmosphere and putting the program above all else is why this was allowed to happen for so long. Throwing a handful of people in jail isn't going to change that.

A failure to report the abuse to police was the problem. Institutions will always have a "cult like" aura about them, because that is the nature of successful, tightly knit organizations. Sometimes they ignore their societal obligations in pursuit of success, so it falls on the police to ensure that these organizations satisfy them. Its hardly the NCAA's job to do this.

 

[cdyhybrid]

What snap judgment? The news broke over three years ago, not three days ago. And actually a personal investment in a case does affect your judgment, that's what a conflict of interest. (It's also kind of the point of the whole impartial jury thing.)

We just need to wait until no one cares anymore all the facts are out before we punish the football program!

A failure to report the abuse to police was the problem. Institutions will always have a "cult like" aura about them, because that is the nature of successful, tightly knit organizations. Sometimes they ignore their societal obligations in pursuit of success, so it falls on the police to ensure that these organizations satisfy them. Its hardly the NCAA's job to do this.

You say this like that makes it okay.

It's absolutely the NCAA's job to do it. They're supposed to uphold the integrity (lol) of competition in collegiate sports. Penn State gained a competitive advantage by covering this up.

 

[Chumly]

Not exactly the same thing, and you know it. And you know nothing about my contact with him, so you're in no position to credibly comment, really.

So what the fuck does McQueaty being a meathead do with all of these allegations? Other than for you to somehow try and downplay everything that happened.

 

[Stet]

being invested means i'm less likely to make a snap judgement

 

[HalfBakedProphet]

Not exactly the same thing, and you know it. And you know nothing about my contact with him, so you're in no position to credibly comment, really.

so basically "we're you there"? Thanks Ken Ham

I don't need to know the first thing about Mike McQueary personally to understand the motivations behind your desire to discredit him.

 

[prag16]

lol the fact you're vastly outnumbered is a good reason for you to look in the mirror and ask why instead of accusing us of being biased and prone to uninformed judgements because we didn't go to Penn state. You said the equivalent of the judge being related to the person on trial makes him/her less biased.

I never said I'm free from bias (nobody is). Just less likely to make poorly informed snap judgments. Not the same thing.

I have my own brain. I've had years to stew over this. A bunch of other gamers that have probably barely given this a thought in quite some time aren't exactly gonna change my mind.

 

[GameGuru59]

You say this like that makes it okay.

It's absolutely the NCAA's job to do it. They're supposed to uphold the integrity (lol) of competition in collegiate sports. Penn State gained a competitive advantage by covering this up.

Yes. With respect to the sports aspect. This had nothing to do with sports. It was a crime. Justice in this case should be left to the justice system. It has nothing to do with the organization's purview. Similarly, companies should not fire people for shit they say outside of work, unless it significantly affects work. It has nothing to do with the conduct of their work.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

I never said I'm free from bias (nobody is). Just less likely to make poorly informed snap judgments. Not the same thing.

I have my own brain. I've had years to stew over this. A bunch of other gamers that have probably barely given this a thought in quite some time aren't exactly gonna change my mind.

And why is that oh holy one?

 

[Tallshortman]

I never said I'm free from bias (nobody is). Just less likely to make poorly informed snap judgments. Not the same thing.

I have my own brain. I've had years to stew over this. A bunch of other gamers that have probably barely given this a thought in quite some time aren't exactly gonna change my mind.

You going to penn state doesn't make you more invested in the story than the rest of us, you making that assumption is unfortunate. There are many others who have invested considerable time into news covering the crimes that occurred who aren't affiliated with the school.

Don't act like you've been meditating and soul searching over the last 3 years, give it a break. You're no less prone to snap judgements as the rest of us following the story, in fact you're obviously more biased towards the school whether it be a snap judgement or one you've acquired through years of "Jerry Sandusky rape case" professorship.

 

[Blader]

I never said I'm free from bias (nobody is). Just less likely to make poorly informed snap judgments. Not the same thing.

I have my own brain. I've had years to stew over this. A bunch of other gamers that have probably barely given this a thought in quite some time aren't exactly gonna change my mind.

You had years to stew over it and still came to the conclusion that Paterno somehow got a raw deal from all this. Damn.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Yes. With respect to the sports aspect. This had nothing to do with sports. It was a crime. Justice in this case should be left to the justice system. It has nothing to do with the organization's purview. Similarly, companies should not fire people for shit they say outside of work, unless it significantly affects work. It has nothing to do with the conduct of their work.

You need to read the part of that line that you didn't bold again.

 

[prag16]

And why is that oh holy one?

Many here clearly aren't familiar with the Freeh report and the problems with it. If they were they wouldn't be saying things like "Paterno unequivocally knowingly harbored and protected a known/proven/ongoing child rapist".

 

[Instro]

I love the narrative about the Freeh report. The exaggerations about its validity grow bigger every few months. A couple more years and we'll be hearing that Sandusky was framed.

 

[Sanjuro]

Many here clearly aren't familiar with the Freeh report and the problems with it. If they were they wouldn't be saying things like "Paterno unequivocally knowingly harbored and protected a known/proven/ongoing child rapist".

...he did. Are you saying Paterno had no control over is program?

 

[Stinkles]

I never said I'm free from bias (nobody is). Just less likely to make poorly informed snap judgments. Not the same thing.

I have my own brain. I've had years to stew over this. A bunch of other gamers that have probably barely given this a thought in quite some time aren't exactly gonna change my mind.

This is a terrible way to argue. Also you seem to be laboring under the delusion that people are happy or schadnefreud-y about Paterno getting some kind of post-mortem come uppance.

There's NO happiness to be gained here. Just a tragic story about the rape of children, a cover up and a cult like mentality that values the football program above everything else (dark, awful things even you aren't disputing). The only real victim in this awful, sad, pathetic story is the child and children Sandusky raped. Not you. Not the school. Not the program. They aren't victims. They're at best mute witnesses and at worst, enablers.

the fact that you spent years soul searching to try and find some kind of moral daylight for Paterno is really bizarre to me. Really, strikingly strange.

 

[Chumly]

Many here clearly aren't familiar with the Freeh report and the problems with it. If they were they wouldn't be saying things like "Paterno unequivocally knowingly harbored and protected a known/proven/ongoing child rapist".

Please by all means let us know where we have gone wrong. First answer why McQueary being a meathead has anything to do with the allegations. I'm still curious how this mysteriously plays a role. Then you can tell us how we're all flawed for blaming paterno for sending an email and pretending it never happened.

 

[metalslimer]

It's hilarious to try and assert someone from Penn St would have less bias.

 

[GameGuru59]

You need to read the part of that line that you didn't bold again.

That line assumes the NCAA would have imposed penalties... Or it assumes that players would have left or not gone to Penn State, which would only hurt the school for maybe a couple years. Also, the team could have rallied, and had an even better season than they would have without a scandal.

 

[highoffcoffee496]

I'm a Penn State alum, and this was a complicated situation. Lots of reductionist and ignorant commentary here. The Freeh report had a lot of issues.

Besides, this ordeal basically killed Paterno.

I'm in no way minimizing how monstrous Sandusky is/was. As for McQueary, I crossed paths with him a time or two while attending PSU and he's basically a big dumb meathead. It is what it is from that standpoint.

Inb4 I'm called a child rape enabler.

.

 

[Tallshortman]

I'll stop here

Seems like you can't resist.

 

[GameGuru59]

There's NO happiness to be gained here. Just a tragic story about the rape of children, a cover up and a cult like mentality that values the football program above everything else. The only real victim in this awful, sad, pathetic story is the child and children Sandusky raped. Not you. Not the school. Not the program. They aren't victims. They're at best mute witnesses and at worst, enablers.

They are victims because they are being punished for something they had nothing to do with.

 

[prag16]

Seems like you can't resist.

What can I say. I'm close to breaking the cardinal rule, "never get mad on the internet".

 

[cdyhybrid]

That line assumes the NCAA would have imposed penalties... Or it assumes that players would have left or not gone to Penn State, which would only hurt the school for maybe a couple years. Also, the team could have rallied, and had an even better season than they would have without a scandal.

Why would the NCAA punish them if they did the right thing (not covering it up)? That's the ENTIRE point.

 

[hodayathink]

It's not. The cult-like atmosphere and putting the program above all else is why this was allowed to happen for so long. Throwing a handful of people in jail isn't going to change that.

Neither is taking away wins that everyone knows occured, to be fair. If they really wanted to punish Penn State, the death penalty was the correct answer, but there was too much money involved (in Pennsylvania, for the Big Ten, and for the NCAA) for that to ever really be on the table. There is literally no one in this situation that has handled it correctly.

 

[Sanjuro]

Child rape fans coming out of the woodwork.

 

[GameGuru59]

Why would the NCAA punish them if they did the right thing (not covering it up)? That's the ENTIRE point.

My point is that the NCAA has nothing to do with this. Its a crime, and we have a justice system to dole out appropriate levels of justice in these cases.

Neither is taking away wins that everyone knows occured, to be fair. If they really wanted to punish Penn State, the death penalty was the correct answer, but there was too much money involved (in Pennsylvania, for the Big Ten, and for the NCAA) for that to ever really be on the table. There is literally no one in this situation that has handled it correctly.

Which is why the NCAA should not even attempt to involve itself in the matter.

 

[Blader]

What can I say. I'm close to breaking the cardinal rule, "never get mad on the internet".

I imagine that the way you're cherrypicking things to respond to and which to duck the hell away from is exactly the same way you handled your years of soul searching.

 

[Stet]

My point is that the NCAA has nothing to do with this. Its a crime, and we have a justice system to dole out appropriate levels of justice in these cases.

To people, not institutions.

 

[SCChappy]

Neither is taking away wins that everyone knows occured, to be fair. If they really wanted to punish Penn State, the death penalty was the correct answer, but there was too much money involved (in Pennsylvania, for the Big Ten, and for the NCAA) for that to ever really be on the table. There is literally no one in this situation that has handled it correctly.

Exactly. Vacating wins does nothing; shut the program down for a number of years. Yeah it killed SMU but how can anything else even remotely be adequate? Horrible situation all around.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Neither is taking away wins that everyone knows occured, to be fair. If they really wanted to punish Penn State, the death penalty was the correct answer, but there was too much money involved (in Pennsylvania, for the Big Ten, and for the NCAA) for that to ever really be on the table. There is literally no one in this situation that has handled it correctly.

I agree, they should have gotten the death penalty. But it's too late for that. They already got off easy with the original punishment, no need to go even easier on them.

My point is that the NCAA has nothing to do with this. Its a crime, and we have a justice system to dole out appropriate levels of justice in these cases.

Except the situation had implications in the world of college athletics. That's why the NCAA has every right to be involved.

 

[prag16]

I imagine that the way you're cherrypicking things to respond to and which to duck the hell away from is exactly the same way you handled your years of soul searching.

I'm posting from my phone, and anyway what's the use. You all have the perceived moral high ground, so it's a lost cause regardless.

And oh look, I just got called a "child rape fan".

 

[GameGuru59]

To people, not institutions.

Exactly. The institution is not responsible for the actions of a single member. Do we punish countries for the actions of one of their members against ours?

 

[Stet]

Exactly. The institution is not responsible for the actions of a single member. Do we punish countries for the actions of one of their members against ours?

. . .

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Exactly. Vacating wins does nothing; shut the program down for a number of years. Yeah it killed SMU but how can anything else even remotely be adequate? Horrible situation all around.

If Penn State didn't want to die, they shouldn't have harbored a child rapist for over a decade. NCAA should have handed out the death penalty. Their handling of PSU has been an embarrassment to all of college sports.

 

[Stinkles]

They are victims because they are being punished for something they had nothing to do with.

I don't understand why they're victims. Some wins were vacated that occurred while the program was covering up a rape. To describe those as "tainted" barely begins to scratch the surface. A right-thinking adult would first say, 'Who the fuck cares about some wins, children were being raped while the program abetted the cover up" or maybe more generously "I'm ashamed of our program which behaved in an atrocious fashion for a very long time while children were being raped."


Their victimhood seems trivial in comparison, no?

If this were a business engaged in corporate espionage or insider trading, the employees and shareholders would be hurt by those actions, but nobody would even raise an eyebrow since those would be logical ramifications. These vacated wins are ramifications. And the crimes were worse than corporate espionage.

Take your medicine.