Let's be honest, the guy was likely under immense pressure from all sides with regards to his story. Either way there is no doubt that he saw something sexual happening.
NCAA restores Paterno's vacated wins
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Let's be honest, the guy was likely under immense pressure from all sides with regards to his story. Either way there is no doubt that he saw something sexual happening.
GameGuru59
Banned
That usually happens when there isn't a way to punish the leader without punishing the nation itself. We can't exactly arrest Putin, for example. In such a case, the actions of the individual cannot be separated from the actions of the state. We don't regularly punish all of Russia for crimes Russians commit in the US. The principal question is whether the actions of individuals within Penn State can be separated from the institution as a whole. They can, and have been by the justice system.
Crash55118
Member
Should have lost their program.
The attitudes coming from Penn State just make it seem like a situation like Sandusky could easily happen again.
Basically if the wins get placed back, literally every other violation and should be overturned - USC, Ohio State etc.
The attitudes coming from Penn State just make it seem like a situation like Sandusky could easily happen again.
Basically if the wins get placed back, literally every other violation and should be overturned - USC, Ohio State etc.
Your brain washed. Bad enough that football is more important than education are your school, but more important than child rape. Justice would have been to ban Penn state from NCAA football for generations.
Because your cult mentality needs to be punished.
What aspect of Penn State are they actively supporting which isn't connected directly to the rape of children?
lol, what the hell. Do you know what a war is?
What are those reasons again? "it's a complicated situation," "as a Penn state alumni I'm less likely to make uninformed snap judgments," etc. Give me a break. The facts are clear. The cognitive dissonance is real. Making excuses for Paterno is enabling the enabler.
As I already posted on the previous page people like to ignore the elephant in the room. Paterno under OATH said that McQueary told him it was of sexual nature.
Bashing his "inconsistency" really doesn't matter. Paterno knew it was of sexual nature.
Alcibiades
Member
Yeah in a way he was in a no-win situation. The Penn State "truther" (whatever that is) hates him for being the key witness in bringing Paterno down, while the anti-Penn State crowd can criticize him for not doing anything at the time (beyond reporting to higher ups) especially considering he has been the one person claiming to have actually seen abuse first hand.
Still, wish he was a bit more stable and consistent for the sake of clarity.
The One and Done
Member
So the scumbag looks the other way and now suddenly its ok? Fuck outta here. Disgusting by everyone involved. YOU DONT FUCK WITH KIDS. PERIOD.
ElRenoRaven
Member
NCAA can go straight to hell if they do this. Such bullshit that they're even considering this.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Paterno should be held responsible for not following up on whether or not one of his assistant coaches had a "screw loose" and was making up stories about seeing child rape, or if one of his former assistants (who he still let have access to campus facilities AND his players) was a child rapist. The buck stopped with him. That alone to me is an indictment of Paterno's character and his desires to sweep this under the rug rather than looking out for the potential victims.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Have your wins Mr. facilitator of child rape.
The institution and it's perceived importance enabled this horror to begin with.
And judging from the behavior of Penn state this culture of "Football over everything" still exists. No lessons learned.
Ergo you take it all away. Indiscriminately.
It's like they suddenly remembered they can do whatever they want. What can people do? Stop watching the games?
Ninja Scooter
Member
THe NCAA will be gone soon. The Power conferences are going to drop them like a bad habit.
By the way if you want to know how tone deaf and a bubble Penn State is, the guy they hired as their head coach, James Franklin, is a huge piece of shit himself who's got his own rape scandal issues.
Gentleman Jack
Member
I just need one more for my Bingo card.
GameGuru59
Banned
Then there really won't be any accountability.
Regardless, if possible, one should dole out punishments only to individuals guilty of a crime. No need to use a sledgehammer when you can utilize a scalpel just as effectively. If anything, I would argue that the punishment only deepened Penn State's football culture even further. By distributing the punishment across the entire university (an act of vengeance, rather than justice) the NCAA aggrieved the entire university- and thus aligned the entire university against them. Give people something to hate, and they will tend to rally together greater than they ever had prior.
You kill penn state football you would basically bankrupt state college, pa. A decision like that would have much bigger implications than football.
Alcibiades
Member
I'm not sure anyone is ignoring that. Paterno reported that McQueary saw fondling. He reported that to highers ups who say McQueary told them he was horseplaying. Everyone agrees that there should have been a bigger priority into finding out what happened that day in the shower.
There is nothing wrong with being OK with investigations into the administration who didn't report it while at the same time acknowleding that McQueary's inconsistencies don't help.
Basically you're saying child rape is a necessary evil.
Horseshit. And shame on you for trying to put those words in my mouth.
Implications that outweigh the punishment for covering up child rape?
GameGuru59
Banned
Nobody is saying that.
Well, if you want to enter into a utilitarian argument.
I would argue yes. In lieu of a "full" punishment for that crime (one I would disagree with as being necessary anyway), I would argue the loss of Penn State would be a greater loss than the ability to fully punish the institution for that moral crime (assuming I agreed that punishing the institution in this case were just, which I do not).
Crash55118
Member
The School would still be there. If it can't survive without Football then it shouldn't survive at all.
metalslimer
Member
This one is going too far. He's not saying they don't deserve punishment
No. More like saying you can punish the school and program without destroying it.
Given what the thread is about, evidently you can't!
Okay. Then even though there was a decade of child molestation coverup at an educational institution, you see no reason to remove, even temporary the troublesome football program?
You seem to have no understanding that there exists punishments less extreme than destroying the principle economic driver of a city over the actions of a few. And again, I think you owe me an apology for trying to put those words in my mouth.
I do have an understanding. You are again saying that there is no reason to argue against any sort of decommission because it's only from the actions of a few. There are unfortunate consequences I'd imagine in most instances where money is a high priority.
I also don't believe the program HAD to be killed, or don't assume you support that type of behavior if it wasn't. I just don't think there is anyway someone can just go with the grain that easily. NCAA was never going to harm their team. There are still plenty of reason to have had more action taken.
hodayathink
Member
Talking about this reminded me that a coach actually tried to cover up the truth about the murder of one of his players and that program didn't get the death penalty either (Baylor basketball). If the NCAA is going to be this afraid to hand out that penalty, then I don't know why they should still be around.
You honestly think things like accountability are going to get better with the Big 6 conferences running everything? If so, I've got some beachfront land in South Dakota to sell you.
You honestly think things like accountability are going to get better with the Big 6 conferences running everything? If so, I've got some beachfront land in South Dakota to sell you.
Ninja Scooter
Member
lol I don't think anything will get better, just that the NCAA will cease to exist. I'm sure there will be no shortage of corrupt assholes lining up to replace them.
GameGuru59
Banned
Both of which are reasons why the NCAA just shouldn't bother. Its never going to be consistent, just like the NFL. We have a (almost... eh... somewhat) perfectly suitable justice system designed to administer justice in these cases.
They did. Taking away those wins only hurt Paterno and the program's legacy.
Can't really arrest Paterno, either.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Paterno's legacy is forever destroyed. He coached for like 50 years. Won 300+ games (originally). Won national titles. Coached countless NFL all pros and Hall of Famers. And the first thing anyone outside of Happy Valley will think about when they hear his name is "child rape". He's OJ Simpson status. Giving him back some wins is not going to change that.
True. I think by going back, all it's going to do is distribute more tin foil hats amongst the community.
Yeah, but giving the wins back will justify the "football over everything" culture in State College.
theusedversion
Member
Serious question: do they do this for all athletes and coaches who have committed crimes? Take away wins, records, championships, achievements? Same goes for pro sports. And do people demand this type of punishment for anyone in sports who commits crimes or is this kind of an outlier? Just curious.
Edit: And do they take away all stats for players in those games? I mean it would seem weird if you went back in the record books and see Penn scored 5 touchdowns in this random game but the opponent scored none. But Penn lost cause their coach was involved in.... I guess it just seems weird to rewrite the books as if they never happened. Fire the person, ban them, and let them face their punishment in a court of law. I know this doesn't apply to Paterno since he is dead.
Edit: And do they take away all stats for players in those games? I mean it would seem weird if you went back in the record books and see Penn scored 5 touchdowns in this random game but the opponent scored none. But Penn lost cause their coach was involved in.... I guess it just seems weird to rewrite the books as if they never happened. Fire the person, ban them, and let them face their punishment in a court of law. I know this doesn't apply to Paterno since he is dead.
GameGuru59
Banned
The wins are ultimately a legacy of the school and the players. The students, players, and fans of Penn State did nothing wrong. The wins would not have been possible without those elements. Paterno was only a small part.
Because he's dead. That doesn't justify distributing responsibility across the entire university.
hodayathink
Member
Nope, which is one of the reasons this whole thing is highly contested. IIRC, this was the first time the NCAA had handed out penalties like this to an institution that, for all intents and purposes, hadn't broken an NCAA rule. Coaches and players can get charged with crimes and put in jail, but as long as they were technically eligible and didn't cheat, the records/games stay.
Ninja Scooter
Member
The wins that were vacated were during a time when the NCAA determined that Penn St. was complicit in a cover up regarding Sandusky. It gave them as much of a competitive advantage (because what recruit wants to go to "the school where kids got raped in the showers") as a player's parents getting a house from some shady wannabe agent.
Serious question: Why do people pretend that these crimes are not related to Penn State. Crimes happened ON Penn State campus. Penn State ACTIVELY covered up those crimes. Hence why Penn State was punished. I'm really struggling to understand why this is so difficult for some people to understand. Maybe you could shed some light on this.
theusedversion
Member
I think you don't understand what serious questions are. Jesus.
Weird, you would think they'd be trying to build a statue of those students, players, and fans outside the stadium instead then.
I answered rhetorically because your question was phrased dumb. I don't think you got the hint from my response so here:
No
Happy now? Obviously with crimes committed there are a multitude of factors that go into determining whether or not it gets to the point of taking wins etc.
theusedversion
Member
My question was a legit question. It was only dumb to you because you made stupid assumptions.
Throwing around insults is hardly the model of good debate. Maybe take a breath too?
Edit Beat me to it, already edited out.
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