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[ratcliffja]

I hope we continue to have these GG threads so that we can further cull the disgusting people from this forum. It's pretty frustrating that dozens of juniors have committed account suicide in recent months over this stuff while my wife's account still hasn't been approved. Bah.

 

[Lime]

Actually, the game is super inaccurate and only reinforces the stereotype of lemmings as mindless drones who would follow each other to their own death, even though that's factually incorrect. Kinda </s>, though that article isn't.

The more you know! I learned something new from this thread

 

[MrBadger]

I don't buy the argument that she could be making videos on more important issues. I mean, anybody could be doing that stuff in the time they spend playing videogames or posting on message boards about people who criticise videogames. If female representation in media is important to her, and if it's still a relevant issue (it is), then it has a right to exist.

Videogames aren't important. We should close the gaming side and stay only on off-topic, not being distracted, talking only about what really matters.

Spoiler

Mariah Carey

But then the site would have to be renamed MarvelGAF

 

[foltzie1]

I feel bad for Anita, but some of these tweets are hilarious.

I can't take these hate comments/death/rape threats serious, since I already know there are people like these out there. Despite me not agreeing with her "movement," she has my respect after all she's been going through.

The problem is trying to figure out, who is the 13 year old who is desperate for attention and figuring out that being an idiot is one way to get attention, and who is the sociopath willing to act on the threat.

With regards to the movement, all she is doing is documenting tropes and how often entertainment companies uses the exact same building blocks when building a story. Nothing too in depth, after all, TV Tropes does this exact thing. The only catch is she decided to look at video games and she aggregates her data with a focus on women. Only then does she offer commentary about how perhaps companies could do better when writing their stories.

Some folks just go apoplectic when you start to document things, presumably because they know what you might find wont be flattering. Call it insecurity.

Here's what's beginning to bother me; some of these tweets say something along the lines of "these threads are part of gaming, have you played multiplayer." I wouldn't want to be part of the gaming community where such threats are socially acceptable and a norm.

Dont fret too much, this is part of the game culture growing up, you wont eliminate knuckleheads, but I suspect that matchmaking services will get better at weeding out idiots and putting them in matches together.

 

[Peltz]

it's worth pointing out that phil fish somehow started getting it EVEN WORSE when there was that guilt-by-association shit with that indie game panel that Zoe was also on...



*Assassin's Creed Avatar* is that even a real game or is that a walking simulator

Hmmm... Zoe who? Sorry, I'm not really up to date on all of this stuff. Is she another person who is trying to get better representation for females in tech/gaming?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FI2LY4dk-s

I know very little about Anita and this path she has walked, but since day 1 people have criticized the way she has gone down this path. Most have not attacked her for being a woman or her message, it has been about how she has handled everything.

And whenever someone criticized how she did things or gave her advice, 100s of posts would follow of people calling them woman haters.

Both sides of this "thing" are wrong and right, that's how most things work.

Anita should be able to do her project and fulfill her promises with the money she was given, she apparently hasn't and people have a right to be angry at her. Anger does not mean making threats and people should not immediately jump to her side when those threats occur.

Allow her to report these threats to twitter and stop allowing yourselves to jump up to save her from her problems, she is an adult and can handle immature individuals on the internet.

Her message is what you should focus on, not the people angry with her or her constant posts about it. FOcus on her project and motivate her to get it done. Then the backers of her project will be happy and discussions can occur on her project.

Please tell me I'm wrong, I'd love to hear your logic on how doing anything else will be positive.

First, you can't honestly claim that all the harassment she has received is because of the results of her kickstarter. That is completely disingenuous. The people sending death and rape threats are angry because they disagree with her, yeah, but they refuse to raise their level of discourse above, "fuck you cunt whore die slow motherfucker".

Which kind of proves her point that a lot of gaming skews awkwardly into the hands of faux-violent misogynists.

Twitter is not going to ban these people. It's against their policy unless a specific threat is made. So it's on everyone else, the sane, non shit-heel members of the community, to point out to these people that this sort of behavior is unacceptable. I've never even seen any of Anita's videos, but I can tell you that I would immediately disassociate myself with anyone I know who sent her death threats for trying to be progressive.

 

[Somnid]

The Verge dug into a few of the accounts with some amusing results:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/28/7923491/anita-sarkeesian-week-of-sexist-twitter-harassment

 

[hodgy100]

The Verge dug into a few of the accounts with some amusing results:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/28/7923491/anita-sarkeesian-week-of-sexist-twitter-harassment

I approve!

 

[Great-God]

No. I know first-hand the situation for females in engineering isn't great, but don't make up numbers when more accurate figures are readily available on this very forum with little to no work required from you.

I don't know the exact figures, it was a random number.

"Clearly you need to be educated" it a pretty condescending thing to say. Sure, this might not be an insult (although still pretty insulting) or a threat, but it's still a pretty worthless tweet. He's making gaming not sound inclusive at all, by claiming it to not be her business. Like, who gives him the right to decide that?

Also I'm not sure Anita ever claimed that being misrepresented in videogames was the biggest problem for women. I also think that goes both ways. I always wonder why GamerGate was started as this big 'ethics' movement, but it was kicked off by some meaningless gossip about an indie dev, and seems more focused on harassing or criticising videos like Anita's, all the while game studios are putting out broken games that are met to critical acclaim.

Because people are dumb and quickly go the easy way, which is insulting others. But Sarkeesian also had a role in that, purposefully ignoring Gamergate's original goal.

I be committing intellectual fraud all over this house!

Thanks for your contribution

The fuck are you on about?

First, you didn't link that Twitter post to anything she said; so you sound like you think she made that tweet. The second, intellectual fraud is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard when discussing a series of videos detailing opinions. The third, is that there are social pressures for 99% of engineers to be men in part due to male shit stains that make them feel unwelcome.

Figures? Proof from someone? I mean, it's easy to insult male developers as if they were sexist assholes, but if one applies Occam's razor it makes no sense.

Couple questions for you...
What are "women's true problems"?
What women have you spoken to who are super offended by these simple videos asking for better representation?
Why do you think "99%" of women avoid tech fields? (As a woman in tech, I could tell you, but I'd like to hear your reasoning.)

Edit: I see you answered the first one. Your #3 has a lot to do with my 3rd question.

My grasp of it is that women do not choose technology careers not because they feel unwelcome, but because traditionally it hasn't been marketed to them (you) as an attractive career or subject. The "tech is for boys" has been and is a thing, and it has had an effect in this whole subject.

And no one is offended, it's simply not a big deal, as she's more an entertainer than a fighter for rights. And I believe the repercusion she's had is actually negative, because it draws away the attention from more serious problems. (I think I may be repeating myself-blame mobile)

Before someone asks, yes I'm a heterosexual white blond blue-eyed male in a developed contry from a middle-high economical background.

 

[hey_monkey]

Much lower salaries than men
Household violence
Harassement at workplace

Please provide a complex matrix comparing other factors that proves why THESE are the REAL issues I should be concerned with, as a woman. You seem like an expert.

 

[HiredN00bs]

Exactly.
Women avoid tech because it's historically unwelcoming and downright hostile in some cases.

Who can blame them? It's not worth committing your life to a career where there is a pervasive culture of treating people of your identity like shit. It's why my heart goes out to the transgender community because there are so few spaces for them where this is not the case.

 

[crowphoenix]

Hmmm... Zoe who? Sorry, I'm not really up to date on all of this stuff. Is she another person who is trying to get better representation for females in tech/gaming?

Zoe Quinn was the initial target of GamerGate. She is the developer of Depression Quest, and Gators like to claim collusion for two articles written by her now boyfriend. Both are minor and are about a free game.

 

[90sRobots]

Some of these morons are using their full names. Someone should really take the time to find their Linkedin accounts and send some anonymous tips to employers. They could be doing it during work hours!

 

[hey_monkey]

Hmmm... Zoe who? Sorry, I'm not really up to date on all of this stuff. Is she another person who is trying to get better representation for females in tech/gaming?

Really.

Someone bring me some bourbon.

 

[Anton Sugar]

But Sarkeesian also had a role in that, purposefully ignoring Gamergate's original goal.

What was Gamergate's original goal? I seem to have forgotten and could use a reminder.

 

[Fletcher]

Because people are dumb and quickly go the easy way, which is insulting others. But Sarkeesian also had a role in that, purposefully ignoring Gamergate's original goal.

Oh, god. You mean their original goal of harassing Zoe Quinn? Because if you say this was about ethics in journalism than everything you have typed and will type on this matter should just be ignored.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Much lower salaries than men
Household violence
Harassement at workplace





I'd like to hear how my point is untrue.

And, are you implying I'm insulting women? That's interesting. There are no female developers or engineers because most women are not interested in that because of a completely different cultural factor broader than videogames. (This point also applies to the quote above) So if anything, programming and engineering should be marketed to females as "cool" since childhood, but that'll take at least 20 years.


She chose to start a series of videos (Which, if I'm not mistaken, she hasn't even completed to the kickstarter terms) that were inherently controversial and indeed drew attention away from more serious problems. It's not bad per se, but she takes it WAY too seriously.
Also, a developer's career is not Anita's. Has Corrine Yu (Random female developer) ever been harassed by gamers?

You don't see how a tech & videogame culture that is degrading to women, handwaves sexual harassment, and promotes an "ole' boys club" could push women away from tech fields?

Civil rights movements don't work like that. You don't say "we're not going to attack this problem until we 100% solve this problem over there, then this one, then this one, then 20 years later, we'll get to your problem." There are people already fighting the good fight for equal wages, domestic violence, and workplace harassment. What you're arguing is the same as someone saying, "Who cares that Hollywood never hires any minority actors? Have you seen Ferguson? One problem at a time fellas!" People can care about multiple issues. People can use their expertise to attack an issue that they are more knowledgeable about than others.

 

[More_Badass]

With all the discussion on trolling and why people behave in this manner, I thought this might be a good place to drop these links. This American Life had a great segment this week on Internet trolls -- including an online journalist who was trolled and confronted her troll through an article, his reformation, and a direct, frank conversation with him about why he did what he did. It's fascinating to listen to -- but, I'm also including a link to the transcript for those who can't listen. It's the very first segment.

http://m.thisamericanlife.org


http://m.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/545/transcript

This was great. Thanks for sharing

This paragraph is so relevant

In my experience, if you call a troll a misogynist, he'll almost invariably say, oh, I don't hate women. I just hate what you're saying and what that other woman is saying and that woman and that one for totally unrelated reasons. So it was satisfying at least to hear him admit that, yeah, he hated women.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Because people are dumb and quickly go the easy way, which is insulting others.

Did you just call yourself dumb?

 

[hodgy100]

Zoe Quinn was the initial target of GamerGate. She is the developer of Depression Quest, and Gators like to claim collusion for two articles written by her now boyfriend. Both are minor and are about a free game.

They were also written before the relationship occurred making the initial claim false.
Not just that, why did they attack zoe? if their plight is games journalism why go after the dev and not the, you know, journalist. Not that abusing him is any better, it just highlights how GG has always been about shutting down female members of the industry.

 

[Krejlooc]

Some of these morons are using their full names. Someone should really take the time to find their Linkedin accounts and send some anonymous tips to employers. They could be doing it during work hours!

I would imagine if you researched many of these people, they wouldn't have Linkedin accounts. I'd imagine many are kids or teens, or likely don't work in educated fields.

 

[The Wraith]

While I am not really a fan of hers the people who tweet her this shit need to get a life. They are only perpetuating what she says about gamers and gaming in general.

 

[wildfire]

The Verge dug into a few of the accounts with some amusing results:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/28/7923491/anita-sarkeesian-week-of-sexist-twitter-harassment

When someone mentioned women were also harassing Anita I had to look at these accounts myself. Based on my own twitter usage I wouldn't immediately think most of them were throwaway accounts. They are very hateful and petty.

 

[Jumplion]

The Verge dug into a few of the accounts with some amusing results:

http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/28/7923491/anita-sarkeesian-week-of-sexist-twitter-harassment

It's truly amazing. These people, and trolls in general, can't think of the internet as anything but a game, just something that you input on a screen and get an output. "I'm just a troll" they say, as if it somehow makes their harassment and threats any less real.

 

[foltzie1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FI2LY4dk-s

Dear John Oliver, please do a segment like this on your show.

 

[Toxi]

Both sides of this "thing" are wrong and right, that's how most things work.

 

[Sblargh]

I would answer to you, but I realized that a topic about gay characters on comic books have filled my quota of how much issues I can care about at any one time. Next month, I plan to care more about domestic violence, I'll just have to care less about the plight of the poor and I'll probably be in the green.

 

[FaintDeftone]

These people aren't gamers. They're terrible, soulless human beings with no lives and too much time on their hands.

 

[J10]

These people aren't gamers. They're terrible, soulless human beings with no lives and too much time on their hands.

You just described gamers.

 

[foltzie1]

Both sides of this "thing" are wrong and right, that's how most things work.
.

Lets hear it for logical fallacies!

Phony Middle Ground, or False Equivalence GO!

 

[oni-link]

Out of curiosity does anyone here think there isn't a problem with gender representation in video games? and are genuinely happy with things as they are?

 

[Toxi]

You just described gamers.

Hey, I only removed my soul because I needed more space for spiders.

 

[cm osi]

Out of curiosity does anyone here think there isn't a problem with gender representation in video games? and are genuinely happy with things as they are?

i think there are some problem but i'm fine with things as they are. if they change (for the better), good. if they don't, ok.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

Hmmm... Zoe who? Sorry, I'm not really up to date on all of this stuff. Is she another person who is trying to get better representation for females in tech/gaming?

Zoe Quinn. She's the creator of "depression quest." She was dating a Kotaku writer at one point, and the writer posted an angry blog post airing the dirty laundry of their relationship, causing misogynistic gamers to harass Quinn much like they do with Sarkeesian. Also supposedly this is really about "ethics in games journalism" because of the conflict of interest in a creator dating a person in the media, but those claims have been pretty decisively rebutted. The original claim was that the boyfriend had written positive coverage of Depression Quest while dating her, but that simply wasn't true; he didn't touch the subject.

For whatever reason this is related to Sarkeesian under the rubric of "gamergate," seemingly because both play on latent misogyny in the gaming community. Odd thing is it's the 4channers pushing the connection hardest. Go figure.

 

[andymcc]

Out of curiosity does anyone here think there isn't a problem with gender representation in video games? and are genuinely happy with things as they are?

you'd be surprised at the "it's censorship" or "we should let gender representation come naturally instead of it being forced" or "you're asking game makers to make something they don't want to" or "there's nothing inherently wrong with male protagonists" or..................

i think there are some problem but i'm fine with things as they are. if they change (for the better), good. if they don't, ok.

ha

 

[teeejay]

Out of curiosity does anyone here think there isn't a problem with gender representation in video games? and are genuinely happy with things as they are?

I'm going to get flamed for this but I think there's nothing wrong with it. Gaming, like any form of art, is subject to that of the creator's own choices. If some women complain that they are not well represented in video games, well then, they should make their own.

 

[Beelzebufo]

For whatever reason this is related to Sarkeesian under the rubric of "gamergate," seemingly because both play on latent misogyny in the gaming community. Odd thing is it's the 4channers pushing the connection hardest. Go figure.

Woah, let's be fair here. Even 4chan told the #GGers to go somewhere else because they realized it was on a one-way road to nowhere good.

 

[andymcc]

Zoe Quinn. She's the creator of "depression quest." She was dating a Kotaku writer at one point, and the writer posted an angry blog post airing the dirty laundry of their relationship, causing misogynistic gamers to harass Quinn much like they do with Sarkeesian. Also supposedly this is really about "ethics in games journalism" because of the conflict of interest in a creator dating a person in the media, but those claims have been pretty decisively rebutted. The original claim was that the boyfriend had written positive coverage of Depression Quest while dating her, but that simply wasn't true; he didn't touch the subject.

For whatever reason this is related to Sarkeesian under the rubric of "gamergate," seemingly because both play on latent misogyny in the gaming community. Odd thing is it's the 4channers pushing the connection hardest. Go figure.

this too.

I'm going to get flamed for this but I think there's nothing wrong with it. Gaming, like any form of art, is subject to that of the creator's own choices. If some women complain that they are not well represented in video games, well then, they should make their own.

perfect lmao

 

[Krejlooc]

I'm going to get flamed for this but I think there's nothing wrong with it. Gaming, like any form of art, is subject to that of the creator's own choices. If some women complain that they are not well represented in video games, well then, they should make their own.

You parsed his question incorrectly. He didn't just mean "are you happy with gender representation in video games (media)," he also means "are you happy with the gender representation in video games (industry)." As in, many of the people who work in games aren't women.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

If some women complain that they are not well represented in video games, well then, they should make their own.

They do. And many have been harassed and threatened because of it. Such a great and welcoming environment that is sure to inspire more women to join.

 

[teeejay]

You parsed his question incorrectly. He didn't just mean "are you happy with gender representation in video games (media)," he also means "are you happy with the gender representation in video games (industry)." As in, many of the people who work in games aren't women.

Well, considering that women earn ~18% of computer science degrees, no I'm not surprised. (a bit dated but still - http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_349.asp)

 

[hey_monkey]

I'm going to get flamed for this but I think there's nothing wrong with it. Gaming, like any form of art, is subject to that of the creator's own choices. If some women complain that they are not well represented in video games, well then, they should make their own.

I'm just gonna coast away on a wave of I LITERALLY CANNOT.

 

[Weltall Zero]

For some reason I'm much more incensed at the unsympathetic, victim-blaming ridiculous justifications in this thread, than by the twitter abuse itself. The latter is depressing and makes one wonder what kind of effect this kind of unrelenting onslaught has on the human psyche, but I'm used to the rest of the internet being unmitigated human filth. Seeing these "I'm not saying she deserves it, but...", "she's getting money/attention for it", and so on, on GAF, the one place usually guarded from the worst of internet's madness and vileness... If I was a mod I would not need a banhammer, but a banwreckingball. Thankfully I know this is temporary until the gray catches up with them.

 

[Krejlooc]

More to the point about women just "making their own games" is that it takes teamwork to make games. Doing everything on your own is an insane amount of work.

I guess there could be all-women teams of developers, but that's silly. There's no need to segregate like that.

 

[Azih]

Zoe Quinn. She's the creator of "depression quest." She was dating a Kotaku writer at one point, and the writer posted an angry blog post airing the dirty laundry of their relationship, causing misogynistic gamers to harass Quinn much like they do with Sarkeesian. Also supposedly this is really about "ethics in games journalism" because of the conflict of interest in a creator dating a person in the media, but those claims have been pretty decisively rebutted. The original claim was that the boyfriend had written positive coverage of Depression Quest while dating her, but that simply wasn't true; he didn't touch the subject.

For whatever reason this is related to Sarkeesian under the rubric of "gamergate," seemingly because both play on latent misogyny in the gaming community. Odd thing is it's the 4channers pushing the connection hardest. Go figure.

You got the details wrong, but I can't be bothered to correct it because the whole thing is just a sad series of events in some people's personal lives and has absolutely jack squat to do with ETHICS IN GAMNING JOURNALISM.

And ETHICS IN GAMING JOURNALISM is such a freaking minor issue to turn into a creep internet hateful misogynist over anyway.

 

[stump sock]

More to the point about women just "making their own games" is that it takes teamwork to make games. Doing everything on your own is an insane amount of work.

oh, and if you do decide to make your own game using existing tools like GameMaker or TWINE or something then you're not a real developer and should be driven from your home.

 

[teeejay]

More to the point about women just "making their own games" is that it takes teamwork to make games. Doing everything on your own is an insane amount of work.

I guess there could be all-women teams of developers, but that's silly. There's no need to segregate like that.

A lot of popular games nowadays are indie. I mean, No Man's Sky is made by 4 developers and is marketed as a AAA this year..

 

[foltzie1]

oh, and if you do decide to make your own game using existing tools like GameMaker or TWINE or something then you're not a real developer and should be driven from your home.

Man, wait till the users of the Unreal Engine find out.

 

[Krejlooc]

Well, considering that women earn ~18% of computer science degrees, no I'm not surprised. (a bit dated but still - http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_349.asp)

computer programming is just one of many jobs video game development encompasses. I doubt the gender breakdown is that one sided in, say, a fine arts degree.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Well, considering that women earn ~18% of computer science degrees, no I'm not surprised. (a bit dated but still - http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d12/tables/dt12_349.asp)

Once more, it's an unwelcoming place to be for women. When I was in school daily misogynistic comments being made in class (even by professors!) was the norm. This wasn't long ago either, and I doubt much has changed in the last three years.