Hero_of_the_Day
Member
What exactly do you believe he was right about?
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Anita Sarkeesian shows what one week of harassment directed at her looks like
- Thread starter ElNarez
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What exactly do you believe he was right about?
radioactivez0r
Member
The idea that "death and rape threats are part of online gaming, it's no big deal" is apparently a commonplace, accepted truth is...revealing, I guess. Like, whatever, that's just how the culture works, and you shouldn't question it. Wow.
He was right, and i am not the slightest sorry for her.
You're a prick.
Beelzebufo
Banned
What do you mean? He has tons of empathy, that's why he feels bad for the bold crusader of THE #buckeyenation who had his easily exploitable and terrible comments used as an example of a terrible comment even though he knew it would. And all this in 2015, smh. Anita should be ashamed. /s
I mean technically he was right about the existence of the article I guess.
crowphoenix
Banned
Would you care if they bought a pizza? Or a game?
It's weird to see a post like this on a video game forum that includes a lot of various criticisms of video games from every angle. Not trying to flame you, I just don't get why if it's a gender discussion then women should make their own games, but no one really says that when it comes to discussing any other facet of gaming. Like framerate, boring missions, bad user interface, poor story, etc, you don't really get the 'Don't like it, well it was the choice of the creator, go make your own!'.
Yep. It was the choice of the creator. If I don't like that choice as the consumer and intended audience, it's my choice to criticize the product. As someone who writes, I want feedback from readers to know what they think I did well or not and will make up my own mind about the feedback. I don't need a third party telling those who give feedback that they should just go write their own books instead of engaging with me. That's ridiculous.
Truly solo developers are not the norm nor very common.
If only because it's difficult to find someone proficient in programming, visual art, audio art, and, most importantly, the time to do all 3 at once.
Before you bring up a list of games developed by single people - yes, I know people do it. I have done it before. It's still not the norm.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Dude, that stuff doesn't scale at all. A large blueprint program is much more confusing to read than a long textual program.
I don't mean to dispute any of the facts you pointed out (except Bayonetta, leave her alone!) but surely this illustrates that marketing is a much bigger issue in inclusion than game development itself. You've cited numerous examples of game development going into the right direction, only to be shut down by the cold, calculated and soulless forces of marketing/pr.
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
He's also pissed off that Johnny Storm is a black guy now, judging by his post history.
hotnheavyload
Banned
I think it's a lot easier these days with visual scripting becoming more and more popular.
Fret not, there is MORE than enough criticism to go around. Kudos to the devs creating some stories and characters with a little more substance.
Realistically, in development, you use both. You're not meant to use solely the cpp code nor are you supposed to solely use blueprint.
That accounts for less than 1/3 of what I listed.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
If you think game studios are 100% male and all games are made with a "creator's vision", you're a moron.
Wind's Howling
Member
We were all dumb in our teenage years but the stupidity a lot of teenage boys have now is absolutely mind-blowing. What is wrong with the social media society nowadays where they find it necessary to make sexual attacks and assault her with rape threats?
The thin line they are trespassing needs to be adequately handled, and I honestly believe the only way this can be handled is with other thin lined ways, ways that are probably illegal.
Expose them. Let them feel that everything they say can not be without consequences. I know that this is not just an issue on the internet, but since we are only tackling this certain subject I'd rather not indulge into the whole 'world problem'
The thin line they are trespassing needs to be adequately handled, and I honestly believe the only way this can be handled is with other thin lined ways, ways that are probably illegal.
Expose them. Let them feel that everything they say can not be without consequences. I know that this is not just an issue on the internet, but since we are only tackling this certain subject I'd rather not indulge into the whole 'world problem'
Racist and Misogynistic? Ahh, the peanut butter and chocolate of hate, they mix so well.
I'm willing to bet plenty of them are adults.
And_Gignac
Member
Must be a peculiar thing to receive such hatred on a daily basis. I guess celebrities and people like Anita that are bombarded with this stupidity must reach a point of desensitization for the sake of their own sanity.
hotnheavyload
Banned
Oh yes true, that was just me assuming you already had one or two of the skills listed.
Shrike_Priest
Member
Fallacy of relative privation.
It is really difficult to know what neoGAF as a community can do to stop this corrosive behavior that takes place in these topics.
We had a Gamergate thread where these sickos would come out occasionally and be all "I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT ANY OF GG BUT QUINN IS A WHORE" type posts, and it seemed to pretty well isolate them into a hole and ostracize them appropriately with their ill-informed arguments. But the downside was we could have no real larger discussions anywhere else on the forum, and legitimate arguments about the problems of games journalism - of which Gamergate has nothing to do with - were largely ignored for a while.
On the other hand now that the GG topic is dead, every fucking topic on these sensitive issues is filled with abhorrent human beings in throwaway junior member accounts saying the most vile, detestable shit imaginable and trying to couch it in the guise of "legitimate questions."
The most infuriating thing is realizing just how prolific these rejects are in the community, because honestly it has made me incredibly suspect of the motives of fellow gamers where before I never automatically approached such conversations with extreme cynicism. Like I notice sometimes I'm prone to overreact to otherwise innocuous comments because I've become so sensitive to these prowling jackasses who have not a shred of human decency or empathy amongst them that it makes me quick on the trigger.
They ARE misogynists and hatemongers. There's really no other way to put it.
If you come into a topic like this and the first fucking scrap of shit out of your mouth isn't how sorry you feel for Anita and how fucked up this is and how we need to find solutions to it, there is something deeply wrong with you.
There is never an appropriate time in threads highlighting her harassment to suggest
1. She likes the attention
2. She deserves the attacks somehow
3. That her analysis is so shit that you're somehow disgusted by her
4. That she wants the attacks because she makes more money
5. That she should suck it up because if you're an e-celebrity it comes with the territory
What kind of heartless bullshit prompts someone to say some shit like this? There is a deep fucking problem here. The fact that it may be common does not reduce how serious the issue is. We need high profile people like Anita to address these issues because the problem is not going away and solutions need to be found, point blank.
We had a Gamergate thread where these sickos would come out occasionally and be all "I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT ANY OF GG BUT QUINN IS A WHORE" type posts, and it seemed to pretty well isolate them into a hole and ostracize them appropriately with their ill-informed arguments. But the downside was we could have no real larger discussions anywhere else on the forum, and legitimate arguments about the problems of games journalism - of which Gamergate has nothing to do with - were largely ignored for a while.
On the other hand now that the GG topic is dead, every fucking topic on these sensitive issues is filled with abhorrent human beings in throwaway junior member accounts saying the most vile, detestable shit imaginable and trying to couch it in the guise of "legitimate questions."
The most infuriating thing is realizing just how prolific these rejects are in the community, because honestly it has made me incredibly suspect of the motives of fellow gamers where before I never automatically approached such conversations with extreme cynicism. Like I notice sometimes I'm prone to overreact to otherwise innocuous comments because I've become so sensitive to these prowling jackasses who have not a shred of human decency or empathy amongst them that it makes me quick on the trigger.
They ARE misogynists and hatemongers. There's really no other way to put it.
If you come into a topic like this and the first fucking scrap of shit out of your mouth isn't how sorry you feel for Anita and how fucked up this is and how we need to find solutions to it, there is something deeply wrong with you.
There is never an appropriate time in threads highlighting her harassment to suggest
1. She likes the attention
2. She deserves the attacks somehow
3. That her analysis is so shit that you're somehow disgusted by her
4. That she wants the attacks because she makes more money
5. That she should suck it up because if you're an e-celebrity it comes with the territory
What kind of heartless bullshit prompts someone to say some shit like this? There is a deep fucking problem here. The fact that it may be common does not reduce how serious the issue is. We need high profile people like Anita to address these issues because the problem is not going away and solutions need to be found, point blank.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, I guess that's right. I have to admit I only work in the mostly textual side of regular software engineering so my impressions of blueprint programs my game developer friend showed me were probably biased. Definitely felt like you still had to learn a lot before becoming proficient, just like most textual languages.
Anton Sugar
Member
Yup. Interalized misogyny is real, people.
My intention wasn't (and isn't) to drive a wedge between men and women--it was to point out the irony in a man telling a woman that she isn't dealing with real women's issues, when online harassment is, in literal fact, more of a problem for women than men.
I've learned that when women say "this is a problem", it's best to listen. Doubt it? Fine, but do your research. In this case, there are numerous studies about the frequency and type of harassment women face online, and many compare it to harassment against men.
The problem with being a moderate is that it skates oh so close to the "well, BOTH sides are equally at fault", which is a fallacy. You say we need discussions--I think everyone in the anti-GG group would agree.
The problem is that pro-GGers seem to be incapable of having any worthwhile discussion, because the majority of their discussion falls back on (surprise surprise) the problem with feminism/Anita/Zoe/"social justice"/etc. How many GG campaigns/operations (yes, they call them this) have been completely devoid of ill-will towards feminists/"SJWs"? How has Gamergate helped anyone outside of themselves? Seriously: what possible discussion is there to have?
Now now, I would argue that this is not new behavior, watch some 1950 or 60s era civil rights footage to see just how bad adults were back then, let alone the children.
Social media just means that instead of Billy the idiot everyone knew to ignore at school, Billy has a1000 friends and they hang out on a /chan board and cook up new ways to be idiots.
Wind's Howling
Member
If they are.. I just.. Well... I don't know what to say. I guess maturity doesn't come with age then.
I just want to say that the level of harassment and abuse directed at Anita and anyone else who is under GamerGate's eye is abhorrent. #NotAllJuniorMembers
It should also be noted that that Anita received harassment, death threats and abuse even before she made any video game related videos, simply for announcing the Tropes vs Women kickstarter.
It should also be noted that that Anita received harassment, death threats and abuse even before she made any video game related videos, simply for announcing the Tropes vs Women kickstarter.
Why can't we care about both?
Also, these things go hand-in-hand. I'm really simplifying things, but if women are consistently portrayed in media as sex objects/inferior, is it that much of a stretch to think that these attitudes also translate to the workplace? Boob plates don't exist in a vacuum. The idea had to start somewhere.
Difference is, celebrities are attacked because they are famous, Anita became famous because she was attacked.
My post was precisely making fun of the notion that blueprint programming is "automatic." It's not, it's merely a visual language.
Personally, not being musically inclined at all and, ego in check, not being a great artist, I find programming to be the easiest (and most fun) part of the equation.
Anytime I work on something and I have someone who can handle everything audio for me, I consider it a blessing.
This is quite the bit of insight.
You can criticize the product all you want, and the developers may hear your complaints, but.. the video game industry is just that, an industry, and these companies are trying to make money. They know their target demographic. The artwork, narrative, and gameplay of their games reflect that. How does a (imo) shitty, recycled game series like call of duty sell so many copies in each iteration? It isn't because they let you make your online character female now, that's for sure.
I know it's just the messenger, but how great would a world without Twitter be. We might get a return of actual journalism (instead of here's some random people off Twitter who are supposedly indicative of regular folks), people are forced to think more than one sentence at a time and you would also not have all this hate going around.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I work for public schools and I actually think there are more progressive minds in the younger generations of today than yesterday. However, the Internet is giving a larger voice to those with more prejudiced opinions.Social Media, for all the great it has done in creating a place to connect with those in similar circumstances, has unfortunately also lent its strength to those who want to connect with others to spread hate.
Do you see few women in the field, that means EVERYBODY who makes games is a mysoginistic asshole who makes women's lives impossible to a point that never in history have they dared to study careers related to games in fear for their lives.
Or "society has been sexist until the last 40 or less years, tecnology was considered a thing for boys and so females have been encouraged to take on other professions"
My point is: even if there's a sexist environment that's not the cause there are few women but the other way around. They may be some feedback, but I'd say it's rather irrelevant to the whole picture.
Yes I do. Unlike you I have made points beyond the "You deserve but mocking". Also, is that an allusion to my age?
Well there you caught me. Congrats, the "people are dumb" was an oversimplification to avoid writing on my phone, and not even the point. "Those" people are dumb.
Believe me, I have other worries in mind than harming you or your friends.
By that logic I feel that's not a matter to take seriously, my feelings can't be wrong.
Except feelings don't mean anything, facts and reason do. So as many men also get insulted in twitter, it's not sexism but a common behaviour.
I have no right to decide, but I have the right to opine that this is detrimental to the fight for women's rights.
Also, isn't it bannable to insult people here?
Then let's treat one another equally and in good faith.
don't kid yourself, she was attacked LONG before you and your fellow twitter warriors harassed the shit out of her after watching thunderf00t.
Amibguous Cad
Member
The latest I've read indicates that once you control for the difference in male and female mathematics test scores, the gender gap disappears in CS.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/2...equired-ability-in-explaining-the-gender-gap/
That's not to say that it isn't a problem, and I'm certainly not saying "lol women suck at math." My best guess is that stereotype threat and similar phenomena are likely the cause of poor female test scores, rather than innate ability. But it still means our solution to "not enough women in CS" should be raising women's test scores in math, rather than dealing with harassment or misogyny in CS.
It might seem minor, but both EA and Bungie released games last year where you create a character at the start of the game and it randomizes the gender and features before you customize. Instead of defaulting to a white man as the "blank slate" (the assumed norm) as most games do, Destiny and Dragon Age Inquisition both randomize gender and skin tone when you start building your character.
It's subtle, but it might be the reason the gender split between male and female main characters in DAI is closer than it ever was in Mass Effect, which always defaulted to male Shepard as the standard.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
I never really bought into her stance and honestly never paid much attention. After reading those comments however, I think she has a valid point and my eyes are opened.
I'd rather donate to people who don't have a voice to speak and enough time to create their own branding.
These threads never get anywhere, one side defends shitty behavior that crosses the line (I find it rather hard to dismiss such direct rape threats) and the other side will never admit there might be rotten apples on the side of promoting equality as well.
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
A depressingly salient point. I've never felt more ashamed of my passion than I have since this all started. I was one of the people initially upset with Leigh Alexander's article, but more and more it's proven itself to be right on the money.
No need for such language.
Beelzebufo
Banned
You can donate to both, then you support people without a voice and help people with a voice to continue speaking out against terrible things
That's not the way it works in most art forms though since almost all are male dominated. It requires a commitment from the mainstream powerhouses as well as the indie darlings to get a true change in representation on a wide scale.
Look at film, just because Tyler Perry and Spike Lee make films with casts that are primarily black does not mean that Hollywood should ignore its issues with casting people of color in the same handful of roles. It took forever for black people to be cast as anything aside from slaves and servants in popular film and this was only due to constant criticism from the progressive community and the impact of the black dollar on the box office. It's not as simple as going out and making something small to end a problem.
It sells that many copies through successful marketing and good core gameplay. Giving players the option to play as a female would hurt it no more than featuring Sara Conner in the advertising of Terminator 2 hurt it.
I was just coming to say twitter is a real shit-hole, but it's a lot of the internet really. this is what happens when you have a "community" with no barrier to entry and no moderation. People will behave like animals because there are no consequences for doing otherwise.
really sad that she has to put up with this crap.
Wind's Howling
Member
Honest question since you work for public schools.
Do you have the feeling that the younger generation understand the dangers of internet, and that not everything can be said without consequence, or do they believe that the internet is an impregnable wall where they sit behind and behind that wall they can say everything they like without being hurtful to others?
Because I honestly get the feeling that the latter is more truthful.
I'm laughing so hard at some of these. I basically did the same thing and looked up some of the accounts. The "COME AT CALL OF DUTY" person is apparently some streamer and wasn't phased that she got called out.
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It's like a supervillain origin story.
Vincent Grayson
Member
ME also had the whole issue where only male Shepard had a unique/hand-crafted character design for the first two titles. Femshep was basically treated as "something you can do, if you want", rather than a valid and equal option. Of course, in the long run, it seems like most (myself included) felt like Femshep was much better acted and a more "real"-seeming character.
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