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ARROW Season 3 |OT| Welcome to the New Age

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I think Diggle is getting a bit more character development later in the season -
Suicide Squad episodes like to focus on him
- but the show seems to be playing the long game with him. We haven't seen any more of HIVE or his brother and in interviews the producers only seem vaguely interested in giving him a costume. It seems he's stuck being the straight man for now. David Ramsey plays it well though.
 
I don't think his character needs more "developing" more than he needs something to do. Diggle is the straight man to all the crazy shit and problems everyone has, he doesn't have some crazy back story he's just an ex-soldier, and now he has a wife and a baby; he's normal. His problem right now is that his role within the Arrow crew is no longer defined, he's no longer the bodyguard sidekick, he isn't the detective, and he's not the computer hacker. Right now he's just general support, and occasional get away driver. The fact that he has no sort of costume also highlights how out of place he seems on missions.

They just need to figure out what his role is right now and make him fit that role. If he's going out into the field he needs a "costume," I don't think he needs crazy looking superhero gear but even just soldier type gear or a suit with a mask is fine.
A character is more than his backstory. He needs development, because he is stuck as Olli's support in his early days. he didn't really move with the rest of the team, so he has to evolve, develop, so he fit into the team and common sense again.

Especially because he is a father and a husband, he should've hide his identity when he goes after criminals who may want to hurt him or the Arrow.
 
I think the past couple episodes have shown a clear issue I'm having, and it's that the show really has a hard time with having story lines that aren't focused on Oliver. Now, I understand that the idea is that this show is, in fact, Oliver's story. I understand that, but that doesn't excuse the issue of weak side-characters. Look at a show like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for example.

There were plenty of times where episodes didn't focus on Buffy herself. This ended up being very beneficial in the long run because it meant the entire cast all ended up being strong characters who could all hold their own storylines. Without compromising the pacing or integrity of the show's central story arc at a given time (which was always focused on Buffy in one way or another).

The reason why I bring this up is because while I'm interested in all the other stuff, it feels like the writers aren't. I'm liking Roy, but I don't feel he's a strong character at all and exists solely for fights and Thea. Diggle's role, it's frequently been pointed out, has been Oliver's conscience. Yet now there is no Oliver, and I understand that's the conundrum here and it could be utilized as an interesting character arc, but instead it's resolved quite quickly and he's the same as he was before. It's why he's the "team leader" now, but it doesn't even seem like that's the case, since it feels like Felicity is calling the shots now. So now Diggle's role is totally undermined so that Felicity has her own thing. Which is fine, except it really just amounts to a romantic arc with a superhero skin on it, and that's not enough to drive anything for me.

Laurel doesn't feel like a strong enough character either, despite this being "The Canary Trilogy" as some have called it, she always felt like a character that got swept up in things bigger than her and then proceeded pout and be self-righteous about it. Granted she is at least trying to do something, but it puts her in a bad light since it makes her seem highly irrational and incredibly stupid. I could say the same for Thea as well, but she doesn't hold Laurel's level of prominence within the story and is mostly there to play off Malcolm. As a result, Thea comes off as significantly more competent as a whole, but yet is still not a strong character.

I suppose my issue is that all of these characters have spent so much time being supplementary, that they don't have any power as focuses for the story. So now we have to have two storylines with Oliver per episode (The flashbacks, and his resurrection) in order to compensate for the apparent lack of "main character power" that this massive cast of characters possesses.
 
I think the past couple episodes have shown a clear issue I'm having, and it's that the show really has a hard time with having story lines that aren't focused on Oliver. Now, I understand that the idea is that this show is, in fact, Oliver's story. I understand that, but that doesn't excuse the issue of weak side-characters. Look at a show like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, for example.

There were plenty of times where episodes didn't focus on Buffy herself. This ended up being very beneficial in the long run because it meant the entire cast all ended up being strong characters who could all hold their own storylines. Without compromising the pacing or integrity of the show's central story arc at a given time (which was always focused on Buffy in one way or another).

The reason why I bring this up is because while I'm interested in all the other stuff, it feels like the writers aren't. I'm liking Roy, but I don't feel he's a strong character at all and exists solely for fights and Thea. Diggle's role, it's frequently been pointed out, has been Oliver's conscience. Yet now there is no Oliver, and I understand that's the conundrum here and it could be utilized as an interesting character arc, but instead it's resolved quite quickly and he's the same as he was before. It's why he's the "team leader" now, but it doesn't even seem like that's the case, since it feels like Felicity is calling the shots now. So now Diggle's role is totally undermined so that Felicity has her own thing. Which is fine, except it really just amounts to a romantic arc with a superhero skin on it, and that's not enough to drive anything for me.

Laurel doesn't feel like a strong enough character either, despite this being "The Canary Trilogy" as some have called it, she always felt like a character that got swept up in things bigger than her and then proceeded pout and be self-righteous about it. Granted she is at least trying to do something, but it puts her in a bad light since it makes her seem highly irrational and incredibly stupid. I could say the same for Thea as well, but she doesn't hold Laurel's level of prominence within the story and is mostly there to play off Malcolm. As a result, Thea comes off as significantly more competent as a whole, but yet is still not a strong character.

I suppose my issue is that all of these characters have spent so much time being supplementary, that they don't have any power as focuses for the story. So now we have to have two storylines with Oliver per episode (The flashbacks, and his resurrection) in order to compensate for the apparent lack of "main character power" that this massive cast of characters possesses.
I agree completely, sad part is that it extends to The Flash side of things as well. Are the characters great? Sure. But can they stand on their own? Absolutely not. The only person here that has had a small glimpse of hope is Roy, and that may be because he isn't really written to have a specific purpose on the show like Felicity or Diggle. It's not that they aren't interesting characters or plots to explore, it's that they really haven't done any of it well at all. Anyone who isn't Ollie, the big baddie, or the flashback buddy gets the shaft for some reason.
 
I agree completely, sad part is that it extends to The Flash side of things as well. Are the characters great? Sure. But can they stand on their own? Absolutely not. The only person here that has had a small glimpse of hope is Roy, and that may be because he isn't really written to have a specific purpose on the show like Felicity or Diggle. It's not that they aren't interesting characters or plots to explore, it's that they really haven't done any of it well at all. Anyone who isn't Ollie, the big baddie, or the flashback buddy gets the shaft for some reason.

The Flash gets a bit of leniency from me since it's only the S1. Arrow is on S3, and thus I'm a bit harsher on it in this regard.

Keep in mind, I was excited for these episodes because I wanted the supporting cast to become stronger characters, but instead we get two Oliver plot threads in addition to what I was expecting.
 
The Flash gets a bit of leniency from me since it's only the S1. Arrow is on S3, and thus I'm a bit harsher on it in this regard.

Still I don't see any reality where Iris, Caitlyn, Cisco, and Wells could hold the show on their own. Great supporting characters, but still.
 
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You mean the guy that has absolutely no character depth whatsoever yet?

Yep. He's already driving shit and he's barely been on the show. And if Flash does their own version of Arrow's story, Firestorm's the sort of character who can provide an anchor for a few episodes.
 
Still I don't see any reality where Iris, Caitlyn, Cisco, and Wells could hold the show on their own. Great supporting characters, but still.
Very true, but they don't need to at this point too much. It's S1, and ground work is still very much being laid. Arrow is past that point. It's on S3, so there should be at least one strong character capable of doing so. I feel any character capable of doing so is Ray Palmer, and that's only because he's an established comic character as opposed to his strength as a character.
And yet I can see Firestorm covering the slack for a few episodes.
Be honest: That's only because of your knowledge of him as a major comic character.
 
Very true, but they don't need to at this point too much. It's S1, and ground work is still very much being laid. Arrow is past that point. It's on S3, so there should be at least one strong character capable of doing so. I feel any character capable of doing so is Ray Palmer, and that's only because he's an established comic character as opposed to his strength as a character.

Be honest: That's only because of your knowledge of him as a major comic character.

Even within the confines of Flash they've made a strong effort to yell 'HE IS IMPORTANT' in increasingly unsubtle ways.
 
Since we are already kinda talking about the general direction of the show, let me add my thoughts.

Deathstroke was terrifying because of these reasons:
a) It was not Oliver's life who we had to fear. It was everyone around him
b) There were quite a few secrets and "things to happen" that were abound
c) He had a clear agenda. A very clear one. Irrational hatred of Oliver
d) Mirakuru, ofc.

Now, this season?
- People close to Oliver either died OR learned his secret. Thea is the only one left, but her whole arc is too absurd to be interesting. Yeah, come here, Papa Malcolm. Yeah.
- Who is this season's opponent? Malcolm? Is he a danger to Thea's wardrobe? Sure. What else? Ra? He has no vendetta against Oliver.
- The big shocking deaths happened already. Namely: Sarah, Moira.

There is no imminent danger, "they are after the glades" is not so shocking the 2nd time, and the character dynamics just fall apart without these silly miscommunications/secrets. However dumb lying to Lance is, it surely cant replicate the thrill of the Deathstroke+Queen mansion episode.

The story needs a slap in the face, basically.
 
Seems pretty clear the season is building to the LOA trying to destroy Starling City. I mean when they find out Thea killed Sara, there's going to be blood... especially when Ra's realises his followers resurrected Oliver.

Throw in Waller's role as well, and Oliver vs Ra's 2.0, you have a stacked finale.
 
Since we are already kinda talking about the general direction of the show, let me add my thoughts.

Deathstroke was terrifying because of these reasons:
a) It was not Oliver's life who we had to fear. It was everyone around him
b) There were quite a few secrets and "things to happen" that were abound
c) He had a clear agenda. A very clear one. Irrational hatred of Oliver
d) Mirakuru, ofc.

Now, this season?
- People close to Oliver either died OR learned his secret. Thea is the only one left, but her whole arc is too absurd to be interesting. Yeah, come here, Papa Malcolm. Yeah.
- Who is this season's opponent? Malcolm? Is he a danger to Thea's wardrobe? Sure. What else? Ra? He has no vendetta against Oliver.
- The big shocking deaths happened already. Namely: Sarah, Moira.

There is no imminent danger, "they are after the glades" is not so shocking the 2nd time, and the character dynamics just fall apart without these silly miscommunications/secrets. However dumb lying to Lance is, it surely cant replicate the thrill of the Deathstroke+Queen mansion episode.

The story needs a slap in the face, basically.
There's just nothing interesting happening. It all feels like setup for S4. I wouldn't be surprised if they're going off a checklist of things to do each episode to get to an outsiders arc
Seems pretty clear the season is building to the LOA trying to destroy Starling City. I mean when they find out Thea killed Sara, there's going to be blood... especially when Ra's realises his followers resurrected Oliver.

Throw in Waller's role as well, and Oliver vs Ra's 2.0, you have a stacked finale.
Doesn't matter if it's stacker or not right now its not interesting. It's really not clear either.nits just Merlyn dicking around with the League and throwing Ollie in front of it. They don't care about the city, just Merlyn. Wallers side of things are being done in ep17 and the flashbacks. There is no endgame this season aside from maybe Palmer suiting up
 
Seems pretty clear the season is building to the LOA trying to destroy Starling City. I mean when they find out Thea killed Sara, there's going to be blood... especially when Ra's realises his followers resurrected Oliver.

Throw in Waller's role as well, and Oliver vs Ra's 2.0, you have a stacked finale.
Destroying parts of Starling City is getting boring.
 
Course there is: Oliver versus Ra's. The show is called Arrow, they're not going to have him job and not win the rematch.
But what makes that the endgame? Ra's doesn't care about Oliver right now and Ollie doesn't give a shit about him. I can see Ra's wanting to finish the job but that's not really compelling since he could just wipe the floor with Ollie again.
 
But what makes that the endgame? Ra's doesn't care about Oliver right now and Ollie doesn't give a shit about him. I can see Ra's wanting to finish the job but that's not really compelling since he could just wipe the floor with Ollie again.

1) Oliver didn't die.
2) The LOA has people usurping Ra's.
3) Oliver's sister killed a LOA member.

Profit.
 
But what makes that the endgame? Ra's doesn't care about Oliver right now and Ollie doesn't give a shit about him. I can see Ra's wanting to finish the job but that's not really compelling since he could just wipe the floor with Ollie again.

Ra's thinks Oliver just killed three League members escaping. I don't think the League truly believe that he's Sara killer but they'll go after him for that anyway. When Oliver resurfaces there's a huge crosshair on him and Team Arrow.

Not to mention Merlyn and Thea are still in harm's way. Nobody except Laurel and Chesthair is safe. But Laurel will put herself and daddy in harm's way on her crusade anyway, but at least the League doesn't hate them.
 
Cupid didn't hold her own. She was a cop, so she's had basic firearms and self-defense training and her archery was most likely self-taught. I don't know if we were watching the same fight, but she was not "holding her own." Ollie was going easy because he didn't want to kill her and she's crazy.

A lot of people exaggerate this kind of thing. I see it all the time in OnePiece discussions, where if two characters have a small clash, then so many people go "Aw man that means X character is on X tier OPOPOPOP."

My friend was upset because Thea was capable of "holding her own" against Oliver earlier on in the season. I had to point out that she clearly couldn't hold her own, and that Ollie was surprised and wasn't going to hurt her.

Laurel clearly displays a perfect level of fight competency for this stage, especially considering she's using a weapon she has zero familiarity with. Roy wasn't that much of a fighter either until he was trained (just enough to get by), and this season has shown that fact. There's a reason that one gif is hilarious, but it also shows the exact same thing that Laurel is going through now.

Also, not a fan of John Campea, but he was also the only good thing about that show (based on the two episodes I watched).

Police self defense training is nowhere near what Arrow or Diggle or Thea or even Laurel would have right now. Their training focuses on not being put in the situation where they would have to resort to hand to hand fighting and if they are, the goal is to subdue but the training assumes the suspect isn't a highly trained fighter. This is a big reason why Police are also trained to always call for backup. Being a self trained archer, she shouldn't have been able to do half the things she's shown as doing.

So at the end of the day.. even if Ollie was taking it easy on her, he should've been able to end the fight very quickly, which wasn't the case. Obviously because that wouldn't make for an entertaining episode but that's exactly my point. The show is going to stretch things out that don't need to be or shouldn't be in reality because it needs to.

The Thea situation is much different because he wasn't aware of her skillset so it was a combination of not intending to hurt her and also being surprised at her ability.
 
Seems pretty clear the season is building to the LOA trying to destroy Starling City. I mean when they find out Thea killed Sara, there's going to be blood... especially when Ra's realises his followers resurrected Oliver.

Throw in Waller's role as well, and Oliver vs Ra's 2.0, you have a stacked finale.

TBH, that was so one sided Oliver is going to have to do something to step his game up, hell he only won is second fight with Malcolm by impaling himself and in turn stabbing Malcolm. If/when they fight again it best not be one on one even if Oliver puts himself through a shitload of training before Ra's shows up.


Got a feeling that aside from getting pestered with that video the person who's their archery consultant has given him an ear full too.

http://geekdad.com/2015/01/danish-archer/
 
I think the disparate threads of this season are gonna come together reasonably well by the finale.

It's obvious that Waller's actions five years previous will likely come back to haunt her here (what with Meseo's presence in the League). I don't think the endgame here is that the League attack Starling. I think it'll have to come down to Oliver having to outsmart the League to take them down. I wonder if what they're trying to do is set up a League vs ARGUS situation with Starling as the battleground, giving birth to the ATOM and having Deathstroke be a wild card in all of it. Maybe it ends in the decimation of the League and the rise of the Outsiders, with the Outsiders War being Season 4.


LOL. I'd pay money to see that.
 
I think the disparate threads of this season are gonna come together reasonably well by the finale.

It's obvious that Waller's actions five years previous will likely come back to haunt her here (what with Meseo's presence in the League). I don't think the endgame here is that the League attack Starling. I think it'll have to come down to Oliver having to outsmart the League to take them down. I wonder if what they're trying to do is set up a League vs ARGUS situation with Starling as the battleground, giving birth to the ATOM and having Deathstroke be a wild card in all of it. Maybe it ends in the decimation of the League and the rise of the Outsiders, with the Outsiders War being Season 4.



LOL. I'd pay money to see that.
Outsiders for S4
Escape from Supermax for S5
Let's do this
 
Police self defense training is nowhere near what Arrow or Diggle or Thea or even Laurel would have right now. Their training focuses on not being put in the situation where they would have to resort to hand to hand fighting and if they are, the goal is to subdue but the training assumes the suspect isn't a highly trained fighter. This is a big reason why Police are also trained to always call for backup. Being a self trained archer, she shouldn't have been able to do half the things she's shown as doing.

So at the end of the day.. even if Ollie was taking it easy on her, he should've been able to end the fight very quickly, which wasn't the case. Obviously because that wouldn't make for an entertaining episode but that's exactly my point. The show is going to stretch things out that don't need to be or shouldn't be in reality because it needs to.

The Thea situation is much different because he wasn't aware of her skillset so it was a combination of not intending to hurt her and also being surprised at her ability.

He took her down right quick, was attempting to talk her down, AND was taking it easy on her. Any skills Cupid had beyond police self-defense (which for all I know is a very thorough course in Starling) were self-taught. She was apparently a good enough candidate for the Suicide Squad. I understand things will be stretched, it's fiction and I expect them to be, but even within the world of Arrow I would not say that Cupid was capable of going toe-to-toe with Oliver. Considering the context of everything, he was still clearly the superior combatant by a lot.
 
This is what makes zero sense because with Diggle's background in Special Forces, he would absolutely have high end hand to hand training. Certainly more than Wildcat and arguably more than Deadshot.

Yes. But he had real world training. The competency the best fighters archieve in comicbook series is the one of action hero. It doesn't matter how much real world training you have, an action hero will still whoop your ass, as they go beyond what's humanly possible.
 
He took her down right quick, was attempting to talk her down, AND was taking it easy on her. Any skills Cupid had beyond police self-defense (which for all I know is a very thorough course in Starling) were self-taught. She was apparently a good enough candidate for the Suicide Squad. I understand things will be stretched, it's fiction and I expect them to be, but even within the world of Arrow I would not say that Cupid was capable of going toe-to-toe with Oliver. Considering the context of everything, he was still clearly the superior combatant by a lot.

People are forgetting Cupid was a masterclass gymnastic before joining the police. So that further raised her competency level as supervillain.

Generally Arrow is consistent with it's power levels. Arrow was going easy on Cupid and when he finally got pissed the fight was over in seconds. Roy meanwhile got beaten because he has less than a year of training under Oliver.
 
So rewatching the first few episodes of season 1 and there are a few times Laurel laid down some solid self-defense moves. Nothing super hero style, but more form and substance than she shows as Black Canary. I wonder if the writers forgot she did this.
 
Yes. But he had real world training. The competency the best fighters archieve in comicbook series is the one of action hero. It doesn't matter how much real world training you have, an action hero will still whoop your ass, as they go beyond what's humanly possible.
Also, Deadshot was a top-tier assassin. I'm sure he was plenty skilled in hand-to-hand.
People are forgetting Cupid was a masterclass gymnastic before joining the police. So that further raised her competency level as supervillain.

Generally Arrow is consistent with it's power levels. Arrow was going easy on Cupid and when he finally got pissed the fight was over in seconds. Roy meanwhile got beaten because he has less than a year of training under Oliver.

I did forget, you are correct. Also, Roy was primarily self-taught, so everything pre-Oliver is just flips he learned on the streets.
So rewatching the first few episodes of season 1 and there are a few times Laurel laid down some solid self-defense moves. Nothing super hero style, but more form and substance than she shows as Black Canary. I wonder if the writers forgot she did this.
I chalked it up to her using a weapon she has zero familiarity with clashing with her boxing and self-defense training.
 
Laurel is a rollercoaster ride with me.

I hate her when she is being stubborn like when alcohol thing and the start with the canary thing. She was ok besides those moments...

But The Barrowman towers everyone so I can survive

How is Oliver alive ?

The japanese wife had a bottle of Lazarus Pit water with her
 
He took her down right quick, was attempting to talk her down, AND was taking it easy on her. Any skills Cupid had beyond police self-defense (which for all I know is a very thorough course in Starling) were self-taught. She was apparently a good enough candidate for the Suicide Squad. I understand things will be stretched, it's fiction and I expect them to be, but even within the world of Arrow I would not say that Cupid was capable of going toe-to-toe with Oliver. Considering the context of everything, he was still clearly the superior combatant by a lot.

The whole point of the Suicide Squad is that they don't have to be that good. They're expendable. There really is no logical reason why Cupid would be as good as she was. But she was and most people don't complain about. So it doesn't make sense that people would complain about Laurel being partially capable. Bias is the only reason.

Yes. But he had real world training. The competency the best fighters archieve in comicbook series is the one of action hero. It doesn't matter how much real world training you have, an action hero will still whoop your ass, as they go beyond what's humanly possible.

Either you equate everyone to "Real World" or you equate everyone to "Comic Book." Mixing and matching doesn't make any sense. Real World means the best fighters beyond normal human capabilities. Comic Book means that the best Soldiers are completely capable of being beyond normal human capabilities.

People are forgetting Cupid was a masterclass gymnastic before joining the police. So that further raised her competency level as supervillain.

Being a Gymnast doesn't increase your competency in anything other than gymnastics. Using those techniques outside of the gymnast environment takes a whole other set of training. Which is why you don't see Gymnasts becoming parkour stunt people without taking parkour training.
 
So rewatching the first few episodes of season 1 and there are a few times Laurel laid down some solid self-defense moves. Nothing super hero style, but more form and substance than she shows as Black Canary. I wonder if the writers forgot she did this.

People blame it on her alcohol and meds problem. It's a somewhat solid excuse, IMO.
 
Either you equate everyone to "Real World" or you equate everyone to "Comic Book." Mixing and matching doesn't make any sense. Real World means the best fighters beyond normal human capabilities. Comic Book means that the best Soldiers are completely capable of being beyond normal human capabilities.
.

Nope. In comic book reality best soldiers are just competent and anyone trained by secret order, asian sensei or stuff like that will steamroll even the best soldier.

I mean..heck. Even in real world that's true. I don't care how talented marine you are, any professional MMA fighter or boxer will squash you into the ground by the simple fact thats soldiers have very little hand to hand combat training compared to professional MMA fighters, which only train in this particular area.
 
Nope. In comic book reality best soldiers are just competent and anyone trained by secret order, asian sensei or stuff like that will steamroll even the best soldier.

I think you're forgetting that there are quite a few greater skilled characters that are apart of or originated in military organizations.

I mean..heck. Even in real world that's true. I don't care how talented marine you are, any professional MMA fighter or boxer will squash you into the ground by the simple fact thats soldiers have very little hand to hand combat training compared to professional MMA fighters, which only train in this particular area.

This is not true. There are active duty military members who are professional MMA fighters. Combatives training is hand to hand and utilizes elements of boxing, muay thai, judo, and bjj. Most soldiers train some level of it but there are others who train it extensively and compete in tournaments with their training. Brian Stann, Colton Smith, and Tim Kennedy have all competed in the UFC while, at some point, being Active Duty in their respective military branches. I'm sure if I looked into it, there are similar stories for Boxing.
 
I think you're forgetting that there are quite a few greater skilled characters that are apart of or originated in military organizations.
On Arrow? Not that we've seen so far. I guess you could maybe make a case about Slade. But here the same principles apply. He was a part of super duper secret special ops group that ran around with half-orange masks and use damn swords. It's the same principle of above-human training an experience, only delivered to select few soldiers instead of select few vigilantes. Definitely not anything somebody like Diggle ever got a chance to take part off.

The whole point of those characters, whether it's Oliver, Slade or Malcom is that they go far beyond what's humanly possible. They are the exceptions to humanity's limits and this allows them to become superheroes or supervillains. What makes them super is being far above other humans in that world. If you would raise up competency level of other regular people, even soldiers, it would remove the "super" part from the equation. It would be regular action series instead of a superhero show.



This is not true. There are active duty military members who are professional MMA fighters.
And if they hope to not constantly get beaten like a child they train hand to hand combat all the time. Regular training you get in army won't do much when everybody you're facing has ten or twenty times as much time and effort into training.
Bassicaly regular soldiers have no chance at competing at MMA. Any success stories are about MMA fighters who also happen to be soldiers. Which means they still put insane ammount of effort into honing their hand to hand skillsets. Because what training they got from army alone just isn't anywhere near enough.

And I didn't see Diggle ever mentioning being MMA fighter. So all he got was regular ass marine training. So yeah, he's going to get steamrolled by peak human in a show like Arrow. Sara said that Leaugue folk make marines look like children. That's the gap in skillset that exist in superhero universes and it always has. This is why Batman couple times took on whole SWAT squad and managed to be victorious.
 
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