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[Altairre]

This gives me hope to be honest.

I liked Inquisition quite a lot but it also did a lot of the things I despise in open world games. Locking the story progression behind such an arbitrary thing as the power rating is often a sign that there isn't too much meaningful content in there and that is absolutely the case with Inquisition. It's a huge, long game as many of the reviews were saying except that it kind of isn't. I spent a lot of hours in that world but the story quests are rather short, there aren't a lot of them an the progression is generally straight forward. You can make up for that with meaningful sidecontent but BW really missed the mark in that regard. There are a few neat sidequests but they are the exception to the rule. Each area needed at least one questline that involves decisions and takes you more or less through the place. The area with the lake did that best I thought and I was hoping it would get better from that point on but you really are mostly just fetching stuff or killing x amount of y.

In addition to that the companions are sadly underdeveloped. Again, I still managed to get somewhat attached to a few of them but if you compare it to the loyalty missions in Mass Effect it is an enormous step backward. I'd rather have less companions but really get to know the ones I have because that's where Bioware's strengths lie in my opinion. I love most of the character arcs in Mass Effect, same as Leliana and especially Morrigan in Origins and the only arc in Inquisition that comes maybe somewhat close to that was Cassadra's.

I'm still worried about Witcher 3 because it is an enormous task to fill a big open world with meaningful characters, quests and things to explore and to also have an impactful story that doesn't get lost in the vast space. I honestly can't really think of many open world games that managed to hold the balance for me. New Vegas is certainly not a bad reference, I couldn't really get into it but the side content writing was quite good from what I've seen. I also liked Red Dead a lot even though there weren't a lot of sidequests. It's probably my favorite story driven open world game if I had to name one.

I'll give CD Projekt the benefit of the doubt though because they haven't let me down yet. The first two games were excellent, which was surprising given the high expectations I had after reading the books.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Right, I'm fine with some fetch quests, but it's the bulk of the content in DA:I, and the people saying "it's optional," please tell me how to get power to progress and unlock new areas and story missions without doing the sidequests.

I would also like to know this. I go to my quest log now and just go "...... really?"

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Most open world games now are chock full of this nonsense and yes, it is bad in all of them. Note, this does not make the entire game bad but it does weigh it down a great deal. Also note that a couple every now and then is perfectly ok.

DAI has a problem in that it is almost the only thing you do off from side missions. Like I said I am at Skyhold, just go there recently after having to replay through the start twice. So, after having a fresh playthrough, and having done it twice, I can not remember one sidequest of any value. I guess you can count the companion stuff. So main missions, companions. I can not for the life of me remember anything else. In comparison I remember damn near every quest I did in Wasteland 2 because most all of them were interesting and ,more important, very involved.

If you're excluding companion missions, there really isn't that many side quests left. Maybe go back and think on that.

And Wasteland 2 was pretty boring imo.

So? Is that an AAA open world game?

So fetch quests in an AAA open world game is bad, but fetch quest in an AA open world game is good.

Right.

 

[Fuz]

The first city in Divinity has more interesting questlines than all of what I have played in DAI, main story stuff included. The game doesn't tell you where to go at all times, either. You have to figure shit out on your own accord.

Having to actually use your brain is out of fashion.

 

[Kinthalis]

As I mentioned, the only meaty content in DA:I, in terms of quality in narrative is some of the main quests (anything not dealing direclty with Corepheus), and a couple of the companion quests.

EVERYTHING else is either a fetch quest, or a souless happenstance with no context or interesting repercussions for anyone or anythign in the world. Couple that with the terrible combat and it's why this game was such a disappointment for me and many others.

Even the romances seem hollow to Bioware's greatest past efforts. Romancing Cassandra, for example, probably one of the best romances in the game, IMHO, involves killing X of the same enemy type annoyingly strewed about these boring open areas, often times lying behind sealed off areas that you need to unlock with power via more borign fetch quests. A short linear skirmish in a keep with no repercusisons in the story one way or the other,a nd a short conversation with Varric about his novels.

Compare that to Jaheria in BG2. She starts out distraught almost to the point of madness when her husband perishes at the beginning of the game. It takes several conversations with her - walking a tight line between making sure she acknowledges her pain, without surrendering to guilt, to even have a shot. Then you need to save her from a curse involving an interesting villain, and you need to actually anger her by putting yourself at risk for her, while justifying your action in dialogue. It also involves you sticking by her through a lengthy ordeal with the Harpers ends (the consequences of this lengthy quests, which sheds a ton fo light on the Harpers and Jaheira herself), ultimately affects Jaheira in many possible ways. She's constantly wondering if what she's doing is right, facing personal demons and the possibility that the Harpers aren't what they seem and how you speak to her during these times affects not just her romance but her general attitude towards you and your cause.

And that's just ONE character. There are several others with storylines just as deep. Not to mention all of the other, rich and interesting sidequests occupying eveyr nook and cranny of the world.

Funny thing, not ever did I have to pick up 1,000 elf roots. in BG2.

 

[Skilletor]

If you're excluding companion missions, there really isn't that many side quests left. Maybe go back and think on that.

And Wasteland 2 was pretty boring imo.

.

Or maybe you should, since there aren't many companions, and the number of quests for them is minuscule in comparison to the overall quests in the game. And the companion quests are the same as every other quest in the game, except with some dialogue thrown in at the end of it. They're no more involved than collecting logs or finding plants.

 

[Ralemont]

I would also like to know this. I go to my quest log now and just go "...... really?"

You cannot just go from one critical mission to the next, no. But there are plenty of ways to get Power, from doing companion quests to closing Rifts to recruiting agents to capturing Keeps to even buying freaking Power from a merchant.

Even the romances seem hollow to Bioware's greatest past efforts. Romancing Cassandra, for example, probably one of the best romances in the game, IMHO, involves killing X of the same enemy type annoyingly strewed about these boring open areas, often times lying behind sealed off areas that you need to unlock with power via more borign fetch quests. A short linear skirmish in a keep with no repercusisons in the story one way or the other,a nd a short conversation with Varric about his novels.

As far as I know the Unfinished Business quest isn't necessary for the romance.

 

[jem0208]

Plus given Geralt is a fucking monster hunter, you could totally do collect x quests and be perfectly fine but they still dont do a ton. Not to mention one of the key things about the witcher series is that for all the power geralt has he is still a small fish swimming against the tidal of larger politics and history. He is a relatively small person, so he can do small things. Why is the leader of the inquistion doing all this pointless bullshit and busy work though in DAI? Its the spaceship captain going on the landing team taken to its limit.

Exactly! Even with this caveat which could have allowed them to make boring quests they still managed to make what could be boring ones interesting. The troll hunt quest is fantastic.

 

[Arulan]

The first city in Divinity has more interesting questlines than all of what I have played in DAI, main story stuff included. The game doesn't tell you where to go at all times, either. You have to figure shit out on your own accord.

This last thing is what breaks most open world games. Why have it at all when quest markers lead you through it as if it were linear. Quest design, exploration, and overall world design all suffer due to this silly "modern" feature.

 

[Durante]

So fetch quests in an AAA open world game is bad, but fetch quest in an AA open world game is good.

No, having a few truly optional fetch quest in a game which has absolutely fantastic and deep core gameplay (such as Divinity OS) is fine. Especially since you actually have to figure out how and where to "fetch" stuff rather than having it presented to you on a gold quest arrow.

Conversely, blowing up your AAA extravaganza -- featuring the requisite smorgasbord of shallow base systems -- with a massive amount of fetch quests which involve following a quest marker, some of which are required for progression, is an entirely different matter.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Well, this guy's tastes fall right in line with mine. More hype for The Witcher 3!

Fuckin' Dragon Age: Inquisition, man... such a disappointment that was. Looked damn pretty, though!

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Or maybe you should, since there aren't many companions, and the number of quests for them is minuscule in comparison to the overall quests in the game. And the companion quests are the same as every other quest in the game, except with some dialogue thrown in at the end of it. They're no more involved than collecting logs or finding plants.

What the fuuu? are we playing the same game here?

So you're equating killing Dragons to collecting plants.

No, having a few truly optional fetch quest in a game which has absolutely fantastic and deep core gameplay (such as Divinity OS) is fine. Especially since you actually have to figure out how and where to "fetch" stuff rather than having it presented to you on a gold quest arrow.

Conversely, blowing up your AAA extravaganza -- featuring the requisite smorgasbord of shallow base systems -- with a massive amount of fetch quests which involve following a quest marker, some of which are required for progression, is an entirely different matter.

Bro, Divinity had a lot of fetch quests. I thought the gameplay wasn't that great, and the lore was not interesting which is what the opposite I find of DA:I.

And the fact that they don't tell you what to do doesn't make it a better fetch quest. It just makes the context of the quest more vague than it should be, which is very disinteresting.

 

[flaxknuckles]

You cannot just go from one critical mission to the next, no. But there are plenty of ways to get Power, from doing companion quests to closing Rifts to recruiting agents to capturing Keeps to even buying freaking Power from a merchant.

The point is that all of that is ASS

 

[Denton]

Underrated? I think every single person that played Gothic 1 & 2 loves them to death (myself included).

True, but Piranha games get famously low scores in western press, which is disgraceful.
And very few people in US/UK played Gothic series I think, partially as a result of that.

So all 100 of us outside of Germany can form a club

Hahaha. I am glad I live in a country where Gothic is HUGE. Pretty much every gamer I know played first two Gothic games. I remember when we were at a LAN party like 14 years ago and instead of playing multiplayer, one buddy showed us Gothic and all 6 people were each playing Gothic instead

 

[Kinthalis]

What the fuuu? are we playing the same game here?

So you're equating killing Dragons to collecting plants.

The dragons are definitely DA:I's set piece combats. Too bad combat overall kinds sucks.

And again, these are just "x" monsters to kill. Almost none that I can remember had any sort of backstory or interesting lore associated with them. Or had any impact in the story itself or in the narrative of your companions. You could ignore them 100% if you wanted to without changing a damn thing.

 

[scitek]

Just about. Can't stand 3D zelda. Only open world game I've played in recent memory is Infamous:SS, and side stuff in that is nothing to write home about.

So, what's your point again?

His point was that you probably skipped most open world games, and you did.

 

[hammertomb]

I would be ok with the fetch quests if the combat was fun.

 

[Dick Justice]

Good. DA:I followed the Ubisoft open world formula to a tee, and the non-story stuff just bored the fuck out of me. New Vegas obliterates it quest-wise.

 

[Durante]

And the fact that they don't tell you what to do doesn't make it a better fetch quest. It just makes the context of the quest more vague than it should be, which is very disinteresting.

Of course, it's supremely interesting to run into the direction an arrow points while holding a button to defeat enemies.

I don't think we'll ever agree. Remotely.

 

[Altairre]

Hahaha. I am glad I live in a country where Gothic is HUGE. Pretty much every gamer I know played first two Gothic games.

Until Gothic 3 came to the party and took a dump in everyone's drinks. I could never get into Risen after Gothic died.

 

[Ralemont]

The point is that all of that is ASS

Capturing Keeps, companion quests, and killing dragons are all good content. So are completing the longer dungeons that you can unlock on the world map which nets you Power.

Look, if you didn't like the story content, then I don't really care. The only thing that matters for the purpose 0f this discussion is the extent of the non-fetch content.

Do I think DA: I completely succeeds in filling its world with meaningful content? No, not really. It does worse than I'd hoped and better than I'd feared.

Of course, it's supremely interesting to run into the direction an arrow points while holding a button to defeat enemies.

If someone plays on an easier difficulty and then complains about the game lacking strategy, then that's on them. DA: I isn't even close to the pinnacle of strategic combat, but the claim that you can hold a button to win is wrong (....except if you're playing Knight Enchanter. ). Then again, last I've heard you haven't played this game, Durante, so I'm not sure how much we can discuss here.

 

[Horsemama1956]

Good thing those quests are optional, right?

Gotta do a bunch unless you want to finish the game with a half done character and half decent gear.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

The dragons are definitely DA:I's set piece combats. Too bad combat overall kinds sucks.

And again, these are just "x" monsters to kill. Almost none that I can remember had any sort of backstory or interesting lore associated with them. Or had any impact in the story itself or in the narrative of your companions. You could ignore them 100% if you wanted to without changing a damn thing.

Combat is great imo. Dragon fights make you fight extremely strategically.

And you say you don't change a damn thing, but you run across a lot of people saying dragon's are terrorizing them, eating their shit, etc. Well I guess you didn't just save them from the Dragons.

Of course, it's supremely interesting to run into the direction an arrow points while holding a button to defeat enemies.

I don't think we'll ever agree. Remotely.

Except you don't hold a button in DA:I combat or you lose. Auto-attacking the whole game can't be done.

Just face it. You play a ton of games with fetch quests. You didn't even play DA:I from all that you said, so how can you critizing DA:I's fetch quests without even having to play the game?

 

[LurkerPrime]

Gotta do a bunch unless you want to finish the game with a half done character and half decent gear.

To be fair, the final battle doesn't really necessitate finishing either of those things.

Combat is great imo. Dragon fights make you fight extremely strategically.

And you say you don't change a damn thing, but you run across a lot of people saying dragon's are terrorizing them, eating their shit, etc. Well I guess you didn't just save them from the Dragons.

Skyrim is the game with dynamically-terrorizing dragons. DAI's dragons just sorta sit around waiting until you engage them.

 

[Durante]

Then again, last I've heard you haven't played this game, Durante, so I'm not sure how much we can discuss here.

I haven't. Don't worry, I'll make a thread if I ever do, that's a promise. (Though with all the fantastic games releasing lately and coming up, who know s if I ever will)

 

[Deified Data]

What difficulty is everyone playing on where you can defeat all enemies in Inquisition by holding the attack button?

 

[Wulfram]

Of course, it's supremely interesting to run into the direction an arrow points while holding a button to defeat enemies.

I don't think we'll ever agree. Remotely.

Better than running around in circles while holding a button to defeat enemies

 

[Ralemont]

I haven't. Don't worry, I'll make a thread when I do.

I look forward to it. I've been hoping for some more in-depth analysis on the combat instead of talking about fetch quests. The fetch quests would have, I felt, been much more enjoyable if the combat was, since most quests in the game involve combat at some point.

 

[HK-47]

Better than running around in circles while holding a button to defeat enemies

What game are you talking about?

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Skyrim is the game with dynamically-terrorizing dragons. DAI's dragons just sorta sit around waiting until you engage them.

Uuuuhhh.... Skyrim's dragons, come down in my face and get one shotted by me.

Thanks for the free Dragon Soul, biiiiiiiiitch.

 

[LurkerPrime]

What difficulty is everyone playing on where you can defeat all enemies in Inquisition by holding the attack button?

DAI's balance is so out-of-whack that, on Hard, you'll be doing all but that for the latter half of the game. The player can gain enough XP/equipment to complete the main story handily from mostly finishing only three (or so) regions.

I really hope the Witcher reconciles open worlds and encounter design in a good way. Preferably by letting us skip weak enemies via horseback. DAI's method of making the player plough through every enemy regardless of their level was a real chore that reminds me of Guild Wars 2... or most MMOs.

Uuuuhhh.... Skyrim's dragons, come down in my face and get one shotted by me.

Mods, broski. The answer with Skyrim's flaws is always mods.

There are mods out there specifically to increase the strength and variety in dragons, making them truly legendary creatures.

 

[Denton]

Until Gothic 3 came to the party and took a dump in everyone's drinks. I could never get into Risen after Gothic died.

Yeah...I still enjoyed G3 for the exploration, and now with patches it is pretty much fixed, but it is true that design-wise it is not as good by far - there are too many fetch quests (yeah..) and the north/south of the world is lot less interesting than Myrtana.

Risen games are great though. Smaller in scope, but I loved exploring them. They are not perfect though, G2 NOTR does remain Piranha's best game to this day.

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

What game are you talking about?

I don't know either. It would make sense in the conversation if Divinity:OS played like that, but it doesn't so I don't know.

 

[Daingurse]

What difficulty is everyone playing on where you can defeat all enemies in Inquisition by holding the attack button?

Not a great gamer myself, but I had enough resistance on hard mode, died plenty. I think the combat showed it's weaknesses during the dragon fights though, companion AI is mind numbing stupid. I wouldn't mind micomanaging with a more tactical interface, but the tools given to you in DA:I feel so lacking in that area. I didn't find the encounters fun at all. I killed like 3 dragons and said fuck it.

 

[Altairre]

To be fair, the final battle doesn't really necessitate finishing either of those things.



Skyrim is the game with dynamically-terrorizing dragons. DAI's dragons just sorta sit around waiting until you engage them.

The final battle was absolute garbage especially if you finished most of the sidequest and had half decent gear.

Though I have to say that I prefer the dragon fights in DA to Skyrim. I wish the mechanics of the fights themselves were more varied and it'd be great if they could integrate them into the world more dynamically but I never found the dragon fights in Skyrim to be particularly fun or impressive. Especially because one of the first dragons got stuck in the geography while approaching and just died immediately. Fuck that game.

 

[Ralemont]

Skyrim is the game with dynamically-terrorizing dragons. DAI's dragons just sorta sit around waiting until you engage them.

On the flipside, in Skyrim you only encounter dragons when they attack, as opposed to encountering them naturally in the wilderness like you do with Dragon Age where you attack them in their nest/territory.

I really hope the Witcher reconciles open worlds and encounter design in a good way. Preferably by letting us skip weak enemies via horseback.

You can do this in Dragon Age as well.

 

[Kinthalis]

What difficulty is everyone playing on where you can defeat all enemies in Inquisition by holding the attack button?

Normal.

On hard they become all bullet spongy, so you need to use positioning and at least spend some time in tactical mode.

But tactical mode SUCKS. It's ponderous, inaccurate, and nto very fun to use mouse and keyboard OR gamepad, it doesn't matter, though the shortcoming are much more inexcusable with mouse and keyboard, since the same damn company has made numerous mouse and keyboard interfaces for tactical combat in the past that were perfectly good.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Mods, broski. The answer with Skyrim's flaws is always mods.

Yeah, I know. But I'm the type that beats a game like in the first few days and never look back. Skyrim isn't a game I would replay.

 

[Deified Data]

Mods, broski. The answer with Skyrim's flaws is always mods.

There are mods out there specifically to increase the strength and variety in dragons, making them truly legendary creatures.

Ayup. Mods made Skyrim my Game of the Forever.

Deadly Dragons turned dragon fights into 30-minute long cataclysmic affairs, and the best part is it's all customizable.

Normal.

On hard they become all bullet spongy, so you need to use positioning and at least spend some time in tactical mode.

But tactical mode SUCKS. It's ponderous, inaccurate, and nto very fun to use mouse and keyboard OR gamepad, it doesn't matter, though the shortcoming are much more inexcusable with mouse and keyboard, since the same damn company has made numerous mouse and keyboard interfaces for tactical combat in the past that were perfectly good.

Using abilities will likely increase your enjoyment of the game. You can map them from your tactics menu. I can only assume none of you are using abilities? If you're only using a single button to attack, anyway.

 

[LurkerPrime]

On the flipside, in Skyrim you only encounter dragons when they attack, as opposed to encountering them naturally in the wilderness like you do with Dragon Age where you attack them in their nest/territory.

Not true. Skyrim's dragons have specific nests in Skyrim that they guard and attack from. You can sometimes see them patrolling or terrorizing a town in the distance - but they're always based from a nest. If you're particularly stealthy, you can even sneak up on them in their nest.

DAI's dragons are, in contrast, entirely scripted.

The final battle was absolute garbage especially if you finished most of the sidequest and had half decent gear.

Though I have to say that I prefer the dragon fights in DA to Skyrim. I wish the mechanics of the fights themselves were more varied and it'd be great if they could integrate them into the world more dynamically but I never found the dragon fights in Skyrim to be particularly fun or impressive. Especially because one of the first dragons got stuck in the geography while approaching and just died immediately. Fuck that game.

Lol, that's Skyrim for you. I once found a dragon skeleton (beside the tavern) in a town for some reason.. never figured out why.

DAI definitely handled dragons better as enemies, but I liked that Skyrim had Dragons attack from a distance and such. IIRC, you can even mess up their wings to ground them, adding a tactical element to targetting them.

 

[Ralemont]

Not true. Skyrim's dragons have specific nests in Skyrim that they guard and attack from. You can sometimes see them patrolling or terrorizing a town in the distance - but they're always based from a nest. If you're particularly stealthy, you can even sneak up on them in their nest.

DAI's dragons are, in contrast, entirely scripted.

Is this true even with the Deadly Dragons mod? Maybe that's the disconnect. I didn't find any dragon nests in my relatively short time with the game, compared to the amount of dragon attacks.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Ayup. Mods made Skyrim my Game of the Forever.

Deadly Dragons turned dragon fights into 30-minute long cataclysmic affairs, and the best part is it's all customizable.

I never praise a game for mods that other creators make.

If a game is shit without mods, it's shit. I'll praise Arma's mod creators, not shitty Bohemia.
Skyrim was alright though. Just has a few issues.

 

[Altairre]

Yeah...I still enjoyed G3 for the exploration, and now with patches it is pretty much fixed, but it is true that design-wise it is not as good by far - there are too many fetch quests (yeah..) and the north/south of the world is lot less interesting than Myrtana.

Risen games are great though. Smaller in scope, but I loved exploring them. They are not perfect though, G2 NOTR does remain Piranha's best game to this day.

I have a lot of respect for the fans that took the time to try and fix the broken heap of steaming garbage that was Gothic 3 at release but I will never ever go back to it. Luckily I waited and didn't buy it. Played it at a friend's house and...what the fuck man. That's really all I have to say about it. Fucking Jowood.

 

[erawsd]

I'm curious how the Witcher 3 is going to avoid fetch quests. Neither of the previous Witchers did, and TW3 is much, much bigger. I'd have more hope for a New Vegas-style quest layout if the world size was similar to New Vegas - that is to say, small compared to Skyrim, Dragon Age Inquisition, or Witcher 3.

There's an interview where they pretty much define a "fetch quest" as something that feels like chore. Their goal is to weave in enough narrative weight, unexpected twists and turns, and provide a satisfying payoff so that even if the quest is basically you doing a favor for an NPC, its framed in a way that you wont notice.

I think thats probably what a lot folks really mean when they trash the "fetch quest". Thats why DA:I gets so much shit for it, since many of those quests feel like menial work with a minimum wage payoff.

 

[HK-47]

I never praise a game for mods that other creators make.

If a game is shit without mods, it's shit. I'll praise Arma's mod creators, not shitty Bohemia.
Skyrim was alright though. Just has a few issues.

At least Skyrim has the mod tools for the community to fix it. Will DAI ever get mod tools?

 

[ScepticMatt]

Are you saying they're filled with boring fetch quests? Because that's completely false, at least for the Witcher 2, haven't played the first.

The original Witcher had a lot of fetch quests, which was one thing they tried to reduce in The Witcher 2.

True, but Piranha games get famously low scores in western press, which is disgraceful.

That's mostly due to launching in an extremely broken state. Piranha went as far as funding community patches. I remember Gothic 2 crashing every few minutes, and it took forever to launch after a crash. It also had some bad kind of DRM.

Still, Gothic 2 is one of my all-time favourite gaming memories.

 

[iNvid02]

thoroughly enjoyed inquisition but those "requisiton officers" were up to no good. just ignored them after i figured out the shit they were trying to pull.

eagerly await the witcher's longer branching questlines and meatier side content

 

[Valnen]

I was just joking about that part making me concerned, I fully realize he wouldn't just go right out and say that it sucks, even if he thinks so.

I wouldn't either if I was working on a competitor product, that's just bad form.

Well good thing it doesn't suck anyway.

 

[Deified Data]

Is this true even with the Deadly Dragons mod? Maybe that's the disconnect. I didn't find any dragon nests in my relatively short time with the game, compared to the amount of dragon attacks.

Some inhabit static locations like walls containing parts of a Shout, others are random.

 

[Wagram]

He mentioned one of the buggiest games in existence. Abandoning ship on Witcher!

Spoiler

I actually have faith in CDPR, unlike Bethesda.