Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
He mentions measles. Why would he specifically mention breatmilk with a measles anti-body?
If you wouldn't date transgender people, where do you begin to regard their gender?
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He mentions measles. Why would he specifically mention breatmilk with a measles anti-body?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Which is a very small amount when compared to the population. The number is only large when you present it by itself. When you throw that number into the number of how many people there are in America altogether, it's a very very small fraction. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone claim 1% is a large amount of anything.
You are going to have an intimate relationship before things get serious ?
I live in brazil, my anedoctal evidence might not be the same for USA or Europe =P
Simply Sarah
Member
This is fine. If you want to be with a partner that you can have natural children with without outside aid and you run into people that you'd want to partner with but not enough to overcome that child desire (which they can't fulfill) then OK. If this means effectively ruling out all trans (wo)men then fine. But I want people to state that as their reason rather than just saying they won't date trans people.
This is what always ends up making me angry, when these topics show up. It is not the same scenario here: Women have very real and very legitimate fears of sexual assault and rape, that can be triggered if someone who appears male is sharing intimate spaces with them. This fear is acknowledged in most other contexts as being legitimate, but it is completely disregarded in this one.
This is actually a really complicated issue and its offensive when you try to reduce it to a simple one. On one hand, it isn't fair at all if the rights of trans people are determined by how well they pass. On the other, is it fair to ask women with legitimate fears of sexual assault to just, get over it and deal with people who may appear male in intimate spaces like a bathroom or gym locker room? Neither seems fair to me so I don't know what the answer is, but I know this isn't a simple issue and that the feelings some women have of being "uncomfortable" in these scenarios can't be hand-waived away as mere bigotry.
Really? I think that focusing on who you are detracts from being who you are. It's kinda like the difference between talking about who you are and talking about things that interest you. They both illustrate who you are, but I find the former really boring. I don't want to be with a boring person.
User 73706
Banned
Having a pinch of self-awareness is not a bad thing and goes leaps and bounds in avoiding stagnant ignorance.
For someone who has been this involved in the discussion I can only say you are skimming my posts. If you weren't you would already know I said I don't have a problem with transmen in such a situation and I'm sure that would go the same for most men.
I also said that indicates this is possibly a problem caused by male privilege. It's easy to dismiss a cis woman's concerns just because a scenario they are talking about we don't easily emphasize with. That's why I'm focusing on angles where it is easier to emphasize.
The way society is structured says this is harder than you appreciate. The best inverse example I could think of is if a transboy wanted to play for his high school team.
But obviously that wouldn't create the same level of angst among ourselves like the previous example.
This is actually a good point.
To be fair, Sarah, intersex people haven't really been part of the debate in this thread. The choice being discussed is whether you'd go out with (have sex with) a MtF trans woman or stick with naturally born women. I gave my opinion on that, without ever really considering the position of intersex people because it's a whole different kettle of fish to me. Lots of people have been saying 'I wouldn't date a transwoman' but very few (none?) have been saying 'I'd only date someone with XX chromosomes.' Even I said earlier that the actual chromosomes wouldn't matter to me. I feel like you're muddying the issue by bringing physical medical conditions into what was previously a discussion about physically healthy people with gender identity issues who transition. It's not the same thing.
Unless the operation was in a third-world country and it was a botched job, no, you and 99% of GAF couldn't tell the difference, I guarantee you that much.
As for my thought on this:
It's fine to not date a transgender individual if you are not into the type of equipment down there at that moment.
It's fine to not date a transgender individual if you are really dead-set on having biological offspring.
Anything else is just prejudice and the chromosome argument is one of the most hilarious ones I ever heard. Nobody is attracted to chromosomes, like nobody is attracted to blood types. Drop your bullshit.
Simply Sarah
Member
It's almost double the number of Muslims in the country. It's about half the number of Jews in the country. It's about the same percentage as people who identify as pure Native American. It is probably 100x the number of people with ALS. It's slightly under the population of LA. And the fraction is 1/100.
That one was kind of a joke, but really, I do want them to have access to antibodies for the potentially deadly diseases that they cannot be vaccinated against as an infant.
And_Gignac
Member
Everyone saying no is letting their prejudices rule over them, imo. Saying is just a "preference" is a weak shield. A beautiful woman is a beatiful woman, it doesnt matter if she is trans or cis.
Yeah, maybe the genitals wont look as natural or whatever, but I dont think genital aesthetics play such a big role in most of peoples partner choices.
I am sorry, but when cis-hetero guys say "My preferences doesnt include trans woman" they are actually saying "I dont recognize trans woman as real woman".
Yeah, maybe the genitals wont look as natural or whatever, but I dont think genital aesthetics play such a big role in most of peoples partner choices.
I am sorry, but when cis-hetero guys say "My preferences doesnt include trans woman" they are actually saying "I dont recognize trans woman as real woman".
Just not my preference, is all.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
The surrogate would have breast milk?
What do you base this on? Experience? Scientific studies? Testimonals of trans people and their partners? Pictures and video of people who've undergone such studies?
It's so contrary to what I'd expect that without proof I simply cannot believe you.
That last sentence really cuts to the heart of the matter and makes me uncomfortable. I justify it by saying there's a difference between sex and gender, and in terms of gender I absolutely do see trans people as real women. In terms of biological sex, I do not, and that is what I'm attracted to. As for your comment about genital aesthetics, it's not about aesthetics so much as normalcy and knowing that you're dealing with the real thing rather than a surgeon's construction. You can't pretend that having a preference for a real vagina is just all in the mind or simply a symptom of bigotry. Sex is a physical thing, and hetero men are attracted to vulvas and know vulvas.
That doesn't answer my question. I'm asking you because I'm curious about how you know. "LMGTFY" in long-form doesn't really answer that for me. It's just a reassertion of what was said previously, without explaining exactly where you learned it.
Mmhm.
More broadly, I have the sense that many people - when discussing this issue in the abstract - don't consider how we actually think about gender. If you see someone on the street, you determine gender by secondary sexual characteristics and culturally-relevant trappings (dress or presentation / body language). But in these discussions, it's as if we're going around looking at one another's genitals, and if we aren't sure from looking at those, then we ask about chromosomes in order to be extra triple sure that everything lines up. And I don't think that's a realistic description of how we determine gender in the first place, or how we are attracted to people.
Count Dookkake
Member
I wouldn't date; might let fellate.
I've missed out on a huge chunk of the discussion, but I have some sympathy with that view.
My own view is that blanket statements about attraction are a bit absurd. You never know what's going to happen. You could have some preconceived idea about trans women or men, meet one and then boom! You're head over heels.
I just don't see the world as being a place of such absolutes. People are people, we're all complex and confusing and attraction takes hold of you, you don't get to direct it.
I wonder how quickly attitudes will change on this once designer baby technology makes this factor obsolete.
HUELEN10
Member
Not when you consider that heterosexual males and gynophilliac males are 2 different kinds of people with 2 orientations; sure some overlap exists, but they are not the same thing, just like bisexual and pansexual.
Erin S Kittens
Member
I'm an androgynous queer woman who happens to be transgender. Most of the people I've dated have been queer women, and most of them have been AFAB. It's never been an issue.
This thread and all its armchair gender policemen illustrate why I avoid dating cis men, who are socialized to be dangerous and ignorant in a hierarchical system that's set up to privilege their views, wants, and needs.
This thread and all its armchair gender policemen illustrate why I avoid dating cis men, who are socialized to be dangerous and ignorant in a hierarchical system that's set up to privilege their views, wants, and needs.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think some people don't understand just how much of a social construct gender is.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
That's just a sweeping generalization.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
All this is saying is that a very low number of people in the US are Jewish or Muslim, which isn't surprising considering how tight of a hold Christianity has on America. Then you compared them to Native Americans, who are already seen as a depressingly low number of the population. Comparing the numbers to numbers that are also really small doesn't make the 1% look any bigger.
2% of the population is still really, really low. No matter what way you look at the numbers.
I went on a date with a trans girl once, via Tinder.
She looked really cute, but what threw me off is the way she talked. She still had a very manly tone to her voice, along with a big personality gap between us. I didn't want to continue dating her, but she took it as me hating on trans people. I don't feel like i've done anything wrong, but I guess where I 'draw the line' is when something is off-putting like that.
Am I a bad person for having a 'preference'? Because the way this threads going it sure makes it seem like that. :/
She looked really cute, but what threw me off is the way she talked. She still had a very manly tone to her voice, along with a big personality gap between us. I didn't want to continue dating her, but she took it as me hating on trans people. I don't feel like i've done anything wrong, but I guess where I 'draw the line' is when something is off-putting like that.
Am I a bad person for having a 'preference'? Because the way this threads going it sure makes it seem like that. :/
Well obviously we assume the person we have the option of dating is attractive to us already and we know somehow that person is trans before starting to date such person. In which case what we are doing is saying why we wouldn't care, that we couldn't care or why and that we would refuse the date.
I am glad you weren't extra sympathetic and that you dated her because you didn't want to be a bad person. I think it is simple to say that if it didn't bother you enough to make you stop dating her, you would have stopped dating her.
Her saying you are hate trans people because you wouldn't date her is silly.
If it wasn't a trans girl and the cute girl spoke the same way, would it make sense for her to say you hate women?
HUELEN10
Member
Isn't that dangerously close to generalizing an entire group of people? I mean, if you don't like people who were born male and identify as male, that's fine as it is your personal preference and I totally respect that (just like how some people's preference is not male-born people that identify as female), but isn't saying you avoid "cis men" pretty much the same thing you are criticizing against?
Leads me to a question, using the above "see someone on the street":
Person A sees Person B (trans) a few seats away from them on the subway.
B has caught A's eye; A is initially attracted to B from a quick glance.
B has the aformentioned secondary sex characteristics and dressed in traditionally gendered clothes.
After some pondering and some more "subtle" (lol) quick glances, A believes B physically looks too masculine for a woman (or too feminine for a man) and finds that unattractive. A isn't thinking "I bet B is trans", but nevertheless made their determination of attraction based on that last sentence.
A decides they're not attracted to B because of this. B hops off for their subway stop, life goes on.
A doesn't know B is trans. A never learns.
Is A displaying ignorance in what they find attractive, in how it's been discussed in this thread?
User 73706
Banned
Are you The Monarch?
Erin S Kittens
Member
You deny the existence of cis male privilege? Good luck.
Nothing wrong with closing yourself off to the oppressing class. Not all cis men are going to be like that, but statistically? I'd rather avoid some self-centered narcissist going off and murdering me over their bullshit insecurities.
Zoe
Member
A surrogate isn't going to stick around until you decide to wean the baby.
HUELEN10
Member
Whoa, that is completely uncalled for. Anyone can discriminate, of any sex, gender, or identity; don't label an entire group of people as an "oppressing class".
I mean, what the fuck.
Simply Sarah
Member
If you went on a date with someone and you didn't click then you didn't click. Sounds like the result would have been the same regardless of if she was cis or trans or anything else. So your choice to not date her is in no way wrong in my book, at least. And, at least from where I'm standing, a "preference" isn't inherently bad (although it can be problematic in some cases). And finding fault with an individual certainly is understandable and normal. Lord knows there are some other trans people I personally can't stand.
CIS male here.
All I look for in a potential partner is whether we share interests and have chemistry.
We're not all built the same, which is kind of at the crux of the issue.
I see your point, someone's entire personality revolving around any trait is not very appealing. But in my case, if I were to date a transgender guy, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me if he obviously has a stronger stance on gender identity than I do, because he clearly has to deal with very powerful issues that I'll never experience.
I'm not saying anything is wrong, it's not my role to tell people who they should or shouldn't date. As I said, though, I do find it sad that being less privileged would be a deal breaker for anyone.
My partner and I are actually going to a performance space tonight to watch a show by a trans woman about gender. I'll be sure to not listen to what she says and focus on whether I'd class her as male or female.
The extent to which people feel the need to label and delineate just baffles me. Maybe it's because I'm perma-confused but I don't get how people can be so absolutist. Oh well.
The extent to which people feel the need to label and delineate just baffles me. Maybe it's because I'm perma-confused but I don't get how people can be so absolutist. Oh well.
I wouldn't date somebody who views everything through a lens of neo-liberal capitalism the same way I wouldn't date somebody who views everything through the lens of gender politics. Beauty is irrelevant in the face of obnoxiousness.
You are going to have an intimate relationship before things get serious ?
I live in brazil, my anedoctal evidence might not be the same for USA or Europe =P
Doesn't Brazil have tens of thousands of transgender prostitutes? That probably has a big part to do with it.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
This is an extremely loaded statement. It's not that I don't recognize trans women as "real" women, it's that I don't recognize trans women as being exactly the same as cis women. If they were exactly the same, there wouldn't be the need to make a distinction between the two.
That said, I wouldn't be against dating a trans woman for a not-so-serious, short-term thing if she was exactly like a regular woman in every way. But I do want to have biological children with a partner one day, so I'm never going to get into a serious relationship with a trans woman.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
You know man, the old left died in the 70s for good reasons. Let it go.
Some people actually care about being recognized as the person they are instead of wanting to "join the collective and crush the capitalist state."
Really, so much of the old left feels like the middle class who only see the privilege of the rich while ignoring their own.
How do you know, dude? You're just gonna decide one day?
afternoon delight
Member
There are so many non-transitioned women in the world that no, I don't feel the need or desire to date one who was once a man.
That's ridiculous, I want my economics to include behavioural economics. I'm not arguing for a resurgence of unions. (derail, I know)
This is interesting, because how DO you determine gender, and is it the same as our process of attraction? Aren't they completely different things? We rarely consider this stuff. Because of my past I find these subjects fascinating, which is why I have so many posts in here.
So let's say I identify a person as male on the street and then, in private, he dropps his clothes and it is a woman who has been in drag, just for fun. My whole concept of whether I'm attracted to this person changes. I never assessed the attractiveness of the man because I just don't do that, my brain does not make such an assessment once I resolve that someone is male.
But now I reassess whether this woman is attractive, despite the masculine features. Just the concept of her being female will recontextualise everything, from a strong jaw to thick eyebrows. Now, crucially, even if I find her unattractive I may still want to have sex with her anyway because there's a constant drive for sex, and having sex feels good, even with an unattractive partner, but my sexual arousal is based on the fact that she is, in fact, a woman. If she were to then, say 'untuck' a dick and say 'actually, the being a woman thing was just a joke, I fooled you twice' then suddenly I can tell you I've gone soft again, and no amount of attraction will solve that.
In the opposite example (and this has happened) when I have been extremely attracted to a woman only to find out that it is a man in drag, my attraction dies a death at that knowledge, and only a discomforting optical illusion of an attractive woman is left. A quick thought of what's in his pants means I can't imagine sex with that person.
The idea that sexual attraction is just how pretty someone is, completely divorced of their sex or genitals, is completely foreign to me. Beauty alone does not cause arousal, beauty plus the thought of fucking that person causes arousal, and in such thoughts I am always fucking a natural member of the female sex. Does that make sense?
UncleSporky
Member
Personally I think asking "how would you know" is the wrong question, because the implication is that they shouldn't tell you about it and you would never know the difference.
If my significant other didn't trust me enough to tell me something like that, then the relationship is already compromised. I don't want to be with someone who withholds information like that from me.
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