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[Raistlin]

No Pro Guitar and No Pro Keys support = No Buy... What the hell, Harmonix !!!

Taking such a long break, I was expecting the return of an almost professional grade pro mode (think Rocksmith, but for all instruments), not the removal of the feature altogether ?
Why am I suppose to upgrade from RB now again ? To go back in time from a two octave key and a near full guitar to a 5 button fase plastic guitar ? Series should go forward, not take a huge step backwards. Pro Mode was the future, Rocksmith is the future, this is a relic of the past, where people settled with the easy illusion of mastering tough songs because they could hit 5 colored buttons fast enough.

As a primary Pro Keyboard user that also loves playing Pro Guitar, and as someone that value my time spent doing make believe music, I think the least they could do is provide an incentive for people that see hitting five buttons as unchallenging and frankly useless in a music game... We want to learn the real songs, and while I'll agree the main target audience is peole that want a make believe party game, I for one will not take part in this rebirth...

You're not getting me back on board Harmonix... I'm hoping Rocksmith makes a return with a "Band" game will all pro instruments, using real midi instruments and offering real learning tools for Keyboards and Drums... As the niche is now wide open for them.

Rock Band (and Guitar Hero) was originally a casual play ... a la Wii Sports. That's why it was so successful. Moving on though, there was a niche but very strong group that kept Rock Band relevant (in terms of DLC song purchases). That was the group of people that were hardcore Rock Band players ... many of which played Pro mode.


Now that they are far enough away from the original series, it looks like they're trying to rekindle the 'casual' audience here. The series was beaten to death in their minds with basically yearly updates, but now there's been enough space to start over. The problem is they seem to be completely turning their backs on the audience that kept them going during the lean times (casual audience thinning out) to begin with. :\

 

[Raistlin]

Good to see the decisions made so far.

Dropping keys and pro guitar are pretty damn essential for survival.

As the Polygon article said, a number of factors contributed to the decline, and the pro instruments splintered the RB community, and also intimidated the FUCK out of new and casual players.

No one wanted to go to parties and switch instruments all night long if there was some dude fucking around on a real guitar or a full-size keyboard which was scary to them.

That is completely wrong and bullshit.

Adding that mode didn't harm anything. If casuals didn't want to use it, they didn't have to. This is a complete step backwards.

 

[Impeccable]

That is completely wrong and bullshit.

Adding that mode didn't harm anything. If casuals didn't want to use it, they didn't have to. This is a complete step backwards.

It is a step back because they probably cannot afford to do these things financially. They are struggling to live from Microsoft's fucking them over by dropping Kinect. They had to Kickstart Amplitude.

They cannot waste money catering to the niche.

 

[shiftplusone]

Curious if the new drum set will come ready for pro mode or if I'll need to hold on to my cymbals/old drum, even


Double curious if it'll support dual kick pedals this time. I know there was an adapter but that shit was hard to find and is like 250 bucks now 3rd party

 

[Ridley327]

That is completely wrong and bullshit.

Adding that mode didn't harm anything. If casuals didn't want to use it, they didn't have to. This is a complete step backwards.

Perception is everything, and when an already expensive purchase gives off the impression of needing even more equipment, even if it's not actually required, it's going to drive casual audiences away.

Harmonix doesn't have an MTV Games to fall back on now. They literally cannot afford to give off that impression again.

 

[ViciousDS]

That is completely wrong and bullshit.

Adding that mode didn't harm anything. If casuals didn't want to use it, they didn't have to. This is a complete step backwards.

do we have data supporting how many people actually bought pro guitar songs? Because I supported them via normal DLC and never touched or bought pro guitar DLC AT ALL. In fact the tons of people I grouped with that bought DLC not a single one payed for that peripheral because we all already had real guitars and rocksmith down the road.

 

[Neoxon]

I'm surprised by the lack of keyboard support, maybe they'll come back in Rock Band 5.

 

[Cybit]

I know. As I said, I addressed this. The labels would have to agree "give away" the songs for free. It's the only way. To try and legally transfer licenses is clearly not going to happen. It's so complicated that it may as well be considered impossible. To get record labels to agree to "give away" content based on a different license is also very unlikely, but it's not impossible. Companies give away stuff all the time. They only have to believe that doing so will result in enough sales down the line to make it worthwhile.

Problem is that where would they make the sales from? People playing Rock Band and then...buying the album?

Also, I think the labels have economic nightmares from the iTunes contract they signed so long ago. I fear it will be a long time before the labels do anything remotely...modern w/r/t licenses. Honestly; we should be targeting the damn DMCA; that is the crux of our issues.

 

[DOWN]

I'm actually kind of ready for them to be back. I miss a long session of greatest hits.

 

[vg260]

Same boat. I'm just going to wait and see how this plays out. I'm not sure if I can see myself buying an Xbox One for just one game. My giant collection of 360 songs aren't going anywhere.

Microsoft would be making a huge mistake not putting out some sort of Rock Band system bundle with the leverage they have in this situation. I would be shocked if they don't do something.

 

[Xyber]

No Pro Guitar and No Pro Keys support = No Buy... What the hell, Harmonix !!!

Taking such a long break, I was expecting the return of an almost professional grade pro mode (think Rocksmith, but for all instruments), not the removal of the feature altogether ?
Why am I suppose to upgrade from RB now again ? To go back in time from a two octave key and a near full guitar to a 5 button fase plastic guitar ? Series should go forward, not take a huge step backwards. Pro Mode was the future, Rocksmith is the future, this is a relic of the past, where people settled with the easy illusion of mastering tough songs because they could hit 5 colored buttons fast enough.

As a primary Pro Keyboard user that also loves playing Pro Guitar, and as someone that value my time spent doing make believe music, I think the least they could do is provide an incentive for people that see hitting five buttons as unchallenging and frankly useless in a music game... We want to learn the real songs, and while I'll agree the main target audience is peole that want a make believe party game, I for one will not take part in this rebirth...

You're not getting me back on board Harmonix... I'm hoping Rocksmith makes a return with a "Band" game will all pro instruments, using real midi instruments and offering real learning tools for Keyboards and Drums... As the niche is now wide open for them.

I think Rock Band took a misstep when expanding to pro instruments. Drums and keys worked fine with the pro upgrades since it worked pretty well within the existing UI. But the pro guitar and bass interface was not great at all and just wasn't a good fit for the game. If you want a good game for real guitars you have Rocksmith (as you mentioned), a way better UI that would not be possible to imitate and still maintain the playability for 4 people at the same time.

And I can't imagine that there was a big percentage of players who actually played the pro guitar and bass (and keys). It just isn't worth focusing resources on when there is a game that already does it better than RB can ever do.

And you say you want a band Rocksmith and I completely disagree there. I think just having 2 people playing at the same time is stretching it. Adding more players just wouldn't work, especially when we are talking about drums.

You are in a very small minority that comes to music games to learn how to play the songs. These games are party games and the standard 5 button guitars and simple drum kit is all they really need. Having all that extra stuff is one of the reasons why it died off 5 years ago. It was just too much new shit you had to buy with every new release if you wanted to experience all the game had to offer.

 

[megarockexe]

I bet they cut RB3 features so they can have parity with their 8-year-old content feature-wise. Why upgrade the backlog when you can have the same experience from 2007?

 

[AlStrong]

Problem is that where would they make the sales from? People playing Rock Band and then...buying the album?

Band-themed in-game accessories/outfits for characters. XD (somewhat kidding...)

 

[AgeEighty]

Problem is that where would they make the sales from? People playing Rock Band and then...buying the album?

Buying the game in the first place, and thus future DLC.

 

[Gleethor]

I bet they cut RB3 features so they can have parity with their 8-year-old content feature-wise. Why upgrade the backlog when you can have the same experience from 2007?

But RB3 was already compatible with everything.

 

[Darth Smurf X]

Problem is that where would they make the sales from? People playing Rock Band and then...buying the album?

People who have huge libraries of songs are big spenders in this genre. The labels risk losing these fat wallets forever when I... I mean WE... don't upgrade to the new platform. If they give away the songs we already bought once, we are now current customers again willing to continue to give them money. Money they won't get if they aren't generous in the beginning to help ease the transition.

Also, those of us with huge libraries will also, probably, be willing to spend a reasonable transfer fee to help with the burden.

Now, getting MS and Sony to also agree to this... ugh. I'm losing hope just typing that.

 

[LuuKyK]

RockBand 4 featuring Lightning playing guitar.

 

[Raistlin]

It is a step back because they probably cannot afford to do these things financially. They are struggling to live from Microsoft's fucking them over by dropping Kinect. They had to Kickstart Amplitude.

They cannot waste money catering to the niche.

Porting pre-existing code is not some monumental cost.

That said, I don't even have a problem with it not being there at launch. I simply want to hear a commitment to it being added in later once they have a ROI.

Perception is everything, and when an already expensive purchase gives off the impression of needing even more equipment, even if it's not actually required, it's going to drive casual audiences away.

Harmonix doesn't have an MTV Games to fall back on now. They literally cannot afford to give off that impression again.

One of the things they're trumpeting is support for existing peripherals. They don't even need to make new pro models unless there's sufficient demand. Not that I agree with that perception argument to begin with. It's already there by virtue of them manufacturing new non-pro instruments. So if that truly is a problem, this game will fail - as is - anyway.

do we have data supporting how many people actually bought pro guitar songs? Because I supported them via normal DLC and never touched or bought pro guitar DLC AT ALL. In fact the tons of people I grouped with that bought DLC not a single one payed for that peripheral because we all already had real guitars and rocksmith down the road.

It's not been released that I'm aware of. However I can guarantee the majority of people that were Pro players, also were in the top percentage of overall DLC purchasers. That's just common sense.


The point here is it's entirely disingenuous for them to claim all your DLC will work when in fact it won't:

Yes! Content purchased from the store or exported from a disc will transfer over to the new generation of consoles at not addition cost as we make that content available.

I literally still have my PS3 up and running for this game. As it stands, I still can't upgrade.

And worse, I get the feeling new songs won't work on the prior platforms ... which means I'm required to have two consoles and two games if I want to continue with new content as well as have all my old content.

People have been arguing about 'perception problems' here. How is the above not a perception problem?

 

[KDash31987]

My friends and family and I are so fucking hyped. I knew it was coming, but it's great that it's official now.

Transferring my DLC from Xbox 360 to Xbox One is gonna take quite a while, though. Hah. I have well over 800 songs. I'm probably gonna need to buy an external hard drive soon. I only have a few games, and I'm already with just 65 GBs left. Heh.

Here's hoping that Agent Orange finally gets in.

 

[Version 3.0]

Problem is that where would they make the sales from? People playing Rock Band and then...buying the album?

Also, I think the labels have economic nightmares from the iTunes contract they signed so long ago. I fear it will be a long time before the labels do anything remotely...modern w/r/t licenses. Honestly; we should be targeting the damn DMCA; that is the crux of our issues.

The money would come from sales of additional songs on Rock Band. What they need to be convinced of is that people won't buy the game if they can't get their songs from last gen's lead platform (for this game) to this gen's lead platform. Additional album sales (and I'm sure there have been immense amounts of these over the years) would be incremental, too, sure.

I realize the odds of this happening are extremely slim. The only way would be a massive social media campaign, and honestly, Rock Band probably isn't big enough to generate one. I was just thinking out loud. I'm not even in that boat; I have an XB1 to transfer to, if I choose. Even if this did happen, I'd still stick with Xbox if my GH instruments will work; RB instruments have been a nightmare of a money pit for me.

 

[SiegfriedFM]

Buying the game in the first place, and thus future DLC.

I think people with 500+ songs already want to keep them to NOT have to buy a ton of DLC in the future.

 

[Impeccable]

Porting pre-existing code is not some monumental cost.

That said, I don't even have a problem with it not being there at launch. I simply want to hear a commitment to it being added in later once they have a ROI.

They have to manually chart everything... that shit does not go by itself.

 

[Deified Data]

So now I have a reason to buy a PS4 other than Bloodborne. Happy day.

 

[JackEtc]

I'm psyched for this. I was younger during the music game boom, and I regrettably chose the GH side.

Now Rock Band 4 is coming, and I'm in college....music games were fun as kids, I can't imagine how much fun they are with alcohol in the mix

 

[Guess Who]

I think Rock Band took a misstep when expanding to pro instruments. Drums and keys worked fine with the pro upgrades since it worked pretty well within the existing UI. But the pro guitar and bass interface was not great at all and just wasn't a good fit for the game. If you want a good game for real guitars you have Rocksmith (as you mentioned), a way better UI that would not be possible to imitate and still maintain the playability for 4 people at the same time.

And I can't imagine that there was a big percentage of players who actually played the pro guitar and bass (and keys). It just isn't worth focusing resources on when there is a game that already does it better than RB can ever do.

And you say you want a band Rocksmith and I completely disagree there. I think just having 2 people playing at the same time is stretching it. Adding more players just wouldn't work, especially when we are talking about drums.

You are in a very small minority that comes to music games to learn how to play the songs. These games are party games and the standard 5 button guitars and simple drum kit is all they really need. Having all that extra stuff is one of the reasons why it died off 5 years ago. It was just too much new shit you had to buy with every new release if you wanted to experience all the game had to offer.

This guy gets it.

Pro drums and pro keys worked great (I will riot if Pro Drums isn't in RB4) but pro guitar was a clusterfuck. It didn't work with any arbitrary guitar, you had to buy a special one or a MIDI-compatible one, and the UI was super busy and hard to sightread. Rocksmith already does what Pro Guitar tried to do and much better. And frankly, Harmonix doesn't have the endless money bags they used to and competing with Rocksmith would require a lot of time and investment into a feature few people would probably use. Keys also make a lot of sense to cut since they are yet another plastic instrument to make, were probably the least popular instrument compared to guitar/mic/drums, and tons of songs didn't have keyboard parts anyway.

I think getting the core stuff back to the fundamentals and working on new gameplay experiences within that core make a lot more sense for RB4 than trying to be all things to all people.

 

[Deadstar]

Imagine this my friends. Rock Band 4 launches on July 4th 2015 along with the full new Tool album available as day one dlc as well as a Rock Band Rammstein disc with all of the Rammstein songs. WOW! They got me if they do that.

 

[HellBlazer]

Q: Will my old DLC work if I bought a different next gen console, i.e. Xbox 360 -> PS4?
A: Cross platform DLC compatibility is not entirely within our control, as DLC ownership is managed by the 1st parties.

Yeah, that's my problem right here... :\

 

[FLD]

Oh man, I kinda wish there was a PC version but transferring DLC ownership is a strong argument for me to stick with the PS4 version. I mean, I haven't touched Rock Band in quite a while but I own easily over a hundred DLC songs, if not more.

Regardless, I'm glad to see the series making a comeback. I really hope this one is more successful than RB3 was.

 

[Raistlin]

They have to manually chart everything... that shit does not go by itself.

If they don't want to offer new songs with it ... fine. I don't like it, but I can accept it.

I'm talking about for the content that's already there. And hell, they could kickstarter albums for Pro mode if they want to do new content without serious financial risk. They were fine using kickstarter for an entire game.

 

[Version 3.0]

I think people with 500+ songs already want to keep them to NOT have to buy a ton of DLC in the future.

You underestimate people's desire for new content. You don't accumulate 500 songs by being content with what you already have.

 

[AgeEighty]

I think people with 500+ songs already want to keep them to NOT have to buy a ton of DLC in the future.

It doesn't really work that way. If you've been a big spender on songs in the past, it's likely you will remain one in the future.

 

[Raistlin]

You underestimate people's desire for new content. You don't accumulate 500 songs by being content with what you already have.

It doesn't really work that way. If you've been a big spender on songs in the past, it's likely you will remain one in the future.

yup

 

[FlashFlooder]

I can't believe they're pulling off backward compatibility. This makes me sooooio happy!

 

[Derpyduck]

That studio video was so depressing. It's like they're all trying to convince themselves that the energy and vibe of the studio is just as it was when they first created Rock Band 1. For their sake, and mine as a gamer, I hope the game turns out to be great. Unfortunately all my DLC is on 360 and I have no intention of buying an Xbox One until they release a new iteration of the hardware.

 

[Darth Smurf X]

It doesn't really work that way. If you've been a big spender on songs in the past, it's likely you will remain one in the future.

Exactly. At the peak of my Rock Band days, it would be a rare week when I wouldn't buy one of the new DLC songs. Even songs I was only marginally interested in got purchased just so I could have something new to play.

And then, after playing some of these songs again and again, I found myself buying the actual song on iTunes.

 

[Ridley327]

One of the things they're trumpeting is support for existing peripherals. They don't even need to make new pro models unless there's sufficient demand. Not that I agree with that perception argument to begin with. It's already there by virtue of them manufacturing new non-pro instruments. So if that truly is a problem, this game will fail - as is - anyway.

The issue wasn't new versions of old instruments. It was needing new instruments for Pro mode, period, which is what drove people away. With how much Harmonix put Pro mode at the forefront of RB3's advertising, more than a few people were turned away when they found out that they had to make a $100+ minimum investment to be able to use it. That's as big a perception problem as the one Activision ran into when they played follow the follower when they added drums and mics, when there was no financial need for them to do so.

 

[Shauni]

I won't get this, but I know a friend who will so I'll undoubtedly play some. Have a feeling it and GH are going to bomb, though. I don't know, I feel like the interest for these died, but you never know I guess.

 

[JackEtc]

Does everything think this means all previously release RB DLC will be available to purchase on the PS4/XB1? This would be my first RB so that's pretty important

 

[Derpyduck]

I won't get this, but I know a friend who will so I'll undoubtedly play some. Have a feeling it and GH are going to bomb, though. I don't know, I feel like the interest for these died, but you never know I guess.

I think you're right. But I'm more inclined to buy GH on PS4 since I always found those games to be better solo experiences.

 

[AlexBasch]

And this is how my decision for the next gen was made.

Seriously, I'm still playing Rock Band to this day and reading this reveal in the way to work made me grin like a goddamn idiot.

I have my guitars, drums and two mics. Here's hoping I can get the Pro Cymbals now, but goddammit, I'm so on the Xbox One train now.

 

[Natiko]

What a glorious day. I'm in. So glad to see pro drum support is in still as well as DLC compatibility.

 

[arevin01]

I'm not sure if there's still a market for this. This was a fad much like Wii was and I don't think those fans will come back to it.

 

[RyanPierre]

That studio video was so depressing. It's like they're all trying to convince themselves that the energy and vibe of the studio is just as it was when they first created Rock Band 1.

Yep, they're all totally lying to themselves. They can't possibly be excited about the creative freedom they now have with their biggest franchise that they're getting ready to launch again.

 

[Neoxon]

I've never been a big fan of RB's guitars. But seeing as GH is supposedly coming back as well, I'll just get the guitar from that assuming their production quality is still on-point.

 

[watership]

Just thinking out loud here, on the topic of 360-to-PS4 transfer:

Obviously, Microsoft has good reason to not cooperate with such a transfer, because clearly there are far more former 360 owners with PS4s than former PS3 owners with XB1s.

However, once upon a time, I created an account at Rockband.com, and the site showed all the songs I owned, my characters, and my high scores. So there is a mechanism for them to know what DLC you've bought.

At this point, they don't need Microsoft to help in this process.

It's Sony and the song owners that would need to sign off on "giving away" these songs, once they're identified. So it's not impossible - the argument simply needs to be made that it's in their interest. If they see it as I said above, "giving away" a bunch of content, they'll obviously say no. But if it's presented as "do this or people will pass on the game", then maybe it would sway them.

Maybe we need a mechanism to demonstrate the amount of demand for this. I don't do social media, really, but if anyone wants to start a campaign, I'd be happy to make this my 3rd tweet.

That's likely never to happen. Sony wants you to buy Rock Band DLC you lost on your 360-PS4 choice. Harmonix and EA wants you to buy Rock Band DLC you lost on your 360-PS4 choice. MS doesn't want to work out a legal/technical and licensing nightmare, just so you can take you DLC over to the Sony platform.

There isn't a single reason because people changed their primary console. Same reasons there is no backward compatibility for new gen, they want you to re-buy old games, remasters etc.

 

[Ridley327]

I've never been a big fan of RB's guitars. But seeing as GH is supposedly coming back as well, I'll just get the guitar from that assuming their production quality is still on-point.

It's tough to say, since Red Octane has been dead for a while now.

 

[Bsigg12]

Does everything think this means all previously release RB DLC will be available to purchase on the PS4/XB1? This would be my first RB so that's pretty important

No. There are songs they lose the rights to sell and have been for a while now.

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

Well so much for my Wii instruments.

 

[Raistlin]

The issue wasn't new versions of old instruments. It was needing new instruments for Pro mode, period, which is what drove people away. With how much Harmonix put Pro mode at the forefront of RB3's advertising, more than a few people were turned away when they found out that they had to make a $100+ minimum investment to be able to use it. That's as big a perception problem as the one Activision ran into when they played follow the follower when they added drums and mics, when there was no financial need for them to do so.

That doesn't make sense. What is the difference between new versions of old instruments and new instruments? It's the same perception either way, unless you're seriously arguing people were under the impression they needed to get two sets of instruments in order to play. The only problem, if there was one, was in the marketing for it.

If you're right and people automatically assume the game requires new instruments (be in new versions of old or pro models), then this release has the exact same issue and is already doomed.


I don't think that was the case. The problem was actually bringing out too many iterations of the game. While the hardcore players were fine, it was too much for the casuals. They simply grew tired of it.

What they should have done is what they are attempting now. Bring out a 'platform', and then not bring out new releases (other than maybe song discs if certain regions need it). It should be about purchasing new content for the existing game. Yearly $60 updates were the problem. Having the platform support more than one mode is not a problem, particularly since they intend to have prior instruments work. You're trying to have it both ways in your argument.

 

[Impeccable]

I'm not sure if there's still a market for this. This was a fad much like Wii was and I don't think those fans will come back to it.

Even if they "only" manage to get the hardest of core players back, this will be successful. People love Harmonix and are beyond loyal and the DLC will be solid for them for years again.

As it stands now, I think they get that audience and a good chunk of casuals back.