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[JoeyJungle]

OP, if you provide an example, you should actually provide and example and not just make up an even more verbose example of what was used in the actual game.

For a moment I thought I was reading something out of Malazan rather than a mock edit of the Type-0 intro.

Hey, I like the Malazan books!

 

[Ooccoo]

Translators cannot fix the core, meaning if the original script is shit like what happens with most if not all JRPGs, good luck doing a translation that won't suck.

source: am a translator

 

[Frumix]

Translators cannot fix the core, meaning if the original script is shit like what happens with most if not all JRPGs, good luck doing a translation that won't suck.

source: am a translator

They can certainly make it worse though.

 

[Shamdeo]

Patch 2.5 of FFXIV anyone? The English script made no sense at all unless you listened to it extremely closely. And even then, some elements you had to guess at or make assumptions.

The Japanese script was clear as day regarding all plot points. No confusion at all.

People need to stop using this as an example of a "bad" localization.

FFXIV is unique because there are English-speaking staff that work with Maehiro in Japan that double as localization staff. They participate in the creation of some of the lore and scenario, one of whom was responsible for creating the language of the dragons heard in 2.5.

In this case, the dialogue was written in English first and then localized to Japanese. If enough reading comprehension is exercised, there's nothing that's overlooked that isn't completely stripped of linguistic character in the Japanese script.

The Japanese script of the game is a lot more bland than the English version because it doesn't have enough room for all the linguistic flourishes that the English affords.

I'd much rather keep that as part of the game's character than risk some people getting all angsty over "thees" and "thous"

This isn't a defense of the voice acting and direction though. It seems that's a rather typical poor effort from Square Enix aside from FFXII.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

 

[Frumix]

People need to stop using this as an example of a "bad" localization.

FFXIV is unique because there are English-speaking staff that work with Maehiro in Japan that double as localization staff. They participate in the creation of some of the lore and scenario, one of whom was responsible for creating the language of the dragons heard in 2.5.

In this case, the dialogue was written in English first and then localized to Japanese. If enough reading comprehension is exercised, there's nothing that's overlooked that isn't completely stripped of linguistic character in the Japanese script.

Language of dragons excuse is bullshit because I found some narrative changes that were in line with that Midgardsormr scene and it wasn't a dragon speaking!
And they didn't say the dialogue was written in English first - they said it was adjusted when translated based on their idea of the character.
Furthermore, there is such a person as the main writer, and he's Japanese. If I see discrepancies in two different dialogues trying to convey the same one story, I'd like to know why they're there.
There absolutely are points left out of the English script and some brought in that aren't even implied in the Japanese. You need to squint really hard to convince yourself there aren't.

 

[daveo42]

FF6's opening introduces one term (Esper) and one reference (War of the Magi).
FF13's first hour is an assault of nonsense terminology.

I find it more of an example of Square-Enix's terrible writing in general; localization is probably doing what they can to fix it.

Yeah, it's less an issue with localization (though I'm not a big fan of the English VA) and more with poor writing and planning. While older games did a good job at slowly expanding the world to the player and character, newer ones seem to frontload a ton of info without much explanation to the player. You eventually figure stuff out on your own, but it seems so poor that it's almost not worth following it.

SE needs to figure out how to create a lived-in world and interesting characters while writing the game in a way that helps expand and explain everything without feeling shoe-horned in.

I also agree that FFXIV has a horrible story script that seems mostly forgettable outside of a few key moments.

 

[zennyzz]

Hey, I like the Malazan books!

Never said Malazan were bad books. But they're a level of verbosity well above what is used in Type-0.

 

[Shamdeo]

Language of dragons excuse is bullshit because I found some narrative changes that were in line with that Midgardsormr scene and it wasn't a dragon speaking!
And they didn't say the dialogue was written in English first - they said it was adjusted when translated based on their idea of the character.
Furthermore, there is such a person as the main writer, and he's Japanese. If I see discrepancies in two different dialogues trying to convey the same one story, I'd like to know why they're there.
There absolutely are points left out of the English script and some brought in that aren't even implied in the Japanese. You need to squint really hard to convince yourself there aren't.

You seem to think of the Japanese script as a master copy from which all localizations are made afterward, and that's just not always the case with this game.

 

[Frumix]

You seem to think of the Japanese script as a master copy from which all localizations are made afterward, and that's just not always the case with this game.

Well first of all, some original intent must exist. It doesn't matter if it's in English or Japanese. I know that English team helps with creating the lore, writing song lyrics and stuff like that, but we're talking about dialogue here. Somebody must've wrote it and somebody must've had an idea of what they were going for. The idea that was changed and now there's two versions of it. I don't really care how much freedom the English team has, there's still version differences, they still deserve to be called out. It's still a translation, you know? It's not like they completely rewrote everything.

This localization team can't fix descriptions of spells for months on end. I don't exactly trust them to be 100% competent 100% of the time. It might've stemmed from an honest miscommunication or a misplaced intent.

 

[Kama_1082]

Their VA directors need to be fired asap.

All the stupid awkward pauses in dialogue in type-o is annoying as hell.

I hope no one reviews an insignificant screw up you did at work and wishes you get fired.

This new trend of people wishing for others to lose their jobs is so fucking ugly

 

[antibolo]

Is Type-0 HD dual audio?

 

[SunBroDave]

Haven't seen any Type-0, but I wouldn't expect much. FFXIII's english dialogue was fucking horribly written for a Western audience.

 

[Kama_1082]

Is Type-0 HD dual audio?

Yes

 

[rbenchley]

At least still better than the one in FF VI. Kefka has some good lines but mostly it's so awfully simple that it hurts.

Bullshit. Woolsey did a great job of localizing FF VI. I remember playing the literal retranslation that was released over at romhacking.net ten years ago, and it was a fucking abomination.

 

[Frumix]

Bullshit. Woolsey did a great job of localizing FF VI. I remember playing the literal retranslation that was released over at romhacking.net ten years ago, and it was a fucking abomination.

VI dialogue in the original is very very dry.

 

[Anko]

I'm playing type 0 with Japanese audio. Thank god for dual audio. I only take issue with Jack and Cinque. I know they're supposed to sound like that by design but Toyosaki Aki's voice is too much for me. I'm also very used to reading subtitles and usually have no problems, but I found it hard to keep up for type 0. I have an easier time just listening to the Japanese audio.

Translation wise, I think I've spotted at least one part where they made a mistake. The English subtitle made no sense in the context and was opposite in meaning to what was said. I can't recall for sure but I think it's in one of the flashbacks that Ace has while napping on the bench.

The name changes for the nations are throwing me off too. Dominion? Concordion? Imperial? Way to ignore the flags and their nation's respective symbols. And what is up with that moogle with the accent.

FFXII's localisation was amazing by comparison. I think it's the first and only time I didn't cringe.

 

[Pyrrhus]

They've been dreadful for a long while now and appear to be getting even worse based on what I'm hearing about Type-0.

 

[antibolo]

It's nice to see that SE has now fully embraced dual audio. Now everyone can just choose what they want, everybody is happy.

Now if only Atlus could do the same. They're pretty much the only major pub left who refuses to do dual audio (to the point where they even strip off dual audio from games that were dual audio in their Japanese versions).

Even Nintendo has provided dual audio for most of their games for a while now.

 

[The Elite]

Not to say they're not well made, in fact they're very well made but that's the problem. They're too well made to the point the text becomes bloated, wordy, and hard to follow.

I've been playing Type-0 HD lately and I'm getting irked by how wordy the game is and how it tosses so many term.

Type-0 HD isn't the only victim of the wordiness. FFXIII is also wordy with its fal'Cie and l'Cie thing. FFXII had wordy stuff in the beginning and threw in a lot of terminologies.

Also, not to diss on recent DQ localizations (mobile games), but I'm having a hard time following the text due to the use of old English. I prefer a simple translation.

Yes.

I was thinking about making a thread myself. I don't know if it's specifically an issue with localization but a lot of recent Square Enix efforts, at least the ones that I have played, have had obtuse writing styles with a lot of needless verbiage. There is an over use of proper nouns in Type 0, as well.

I have been flip flopping between Type 0 and Chrono Trigger DS the past couple of days. Chrono Trigger has an easy to understand style.

 

[LiK]

They're mediocre. Horrible VO direction and awkward English translations. Hire 8-4, Atlus or NISA for crying out loud.

 

[dead souls]

Just another reason why I wish games had minimal story. You can't screw up what isn't there.

 

[BocoDragon]

Back when XIII came out, a random gaffer's post stuck in my head. He said that the use of all these obtuse fantasy terms made more sense in Japanese culture, because the state of it is that Japanese language is chock full of foreign loanwords and brand names and it reflects their day to day reality.

I thought that made sense. Most of their lives are full of meaningless fantasy words. They even regularly coin English names intended for themselves, yet without being native English speakers there is a disconnect from the inherant meaning of the words. "Fal Cie" and "Focus" are not that far off from saying the name "PlayStation".

 

[MissDeviling]

Nothing to do with voicework or writing, but TWEWY on mobile and Type-0 use the blandest fonts ever. TWEWY's completely destroyed the comic book aesthetic.

 

[entremet]

This is not a localization issue. The source material sucks.

 

[Femmeworth]

My main localisation issue with FFT0 is the voice acting. Far, far too often it falls into the tired anime tropes of girl with an annoying, overly enthusiastic voice that is apparently brain dead ("Moglin? Moglin!") or cooler-than-thou dude who knows everything.

Well, that's the game's demographic.

 

[Megalosaro]

Their Dragon Quest localizations have been shit ever since rock slime.

 

[zennyzz]

intro:

Since the dawn of eternity, four lights of hope have shone upon the world. Men flock to these lights, around which they built four Peristylium. Each Peristylium becomes their faith and society, the path upon which they are set.

The Vermillion Bird - Wings of fire to lift the heart.
The White Tiger - Steely arms by which to seize knowledge.
The Azure Dragon - Unclouded eyes that see all beneath the sky.
The Black Tortoirse - A rigid shield and well-guarded blade.

But when Nine and nine meet nine, Tempus Finis shall be willed upon them. For without the Agito, their world-called Orience must persist in its spiral.

The above is clearly a prophecy.

Cid: In this time of absolute darkness, we must unite to bring forth a light of hope. The time has come! Yes, this is the dawn of a new age!

Narrator: And so the Milites Empire, Home of the White Peristylium, invaded the neighobouring Dominion of Rubrum. As soon as the declaration was made. Milites main fleet swarmed into all corners of Rubrum. At the same time a separate fleet was charged with a sneak attack on the Vermillion Peristylium. A L'cie accompanied this task force. Using a L'cie to invade a Sovereign state was a direct violation of the Pax Codex. A treaty created by all four crystal states.

The beseiged peristylium attempted to repel Milites's magitek armors with powerful magic. Not even the mighty warships could withstand the awesome power of the summoned Eidolons. It seemed that the Militesi offensive would fail, however the l'cie qu'nmi led a special unit past Rubrum's forces and activated a new weapon, the crystal jammer, neutralizing the power of the Vermillion Bird crystal.

Severed from the source of their magical powers, the Rubrum forces were quickly overwhelmed and overrun.

Imperial Marshal Cid Aulstyne demanded of Chanellor Khalia Chival VI that he surrender and transfer the Vermillion Bird Crystal to Militesi control.


Cid: Your Crystal cannot protect you. Resistance is no longer an option. You have six hours to comply with our demands or face the might of our forces- in which case I promise you, the roads of Rubrum will run red with the blood of her people.


Khalia: May the Crystal... guide them to salvation.


Ace: "When nine and nine meet nine, the depths of reasons shall stir. When the seal of creation is broken, a voice like thunder shall sound and thou shalt know..."

"We have arrived!"

Problematic words: Peristylium, L'cie, Agito, Tempus Finis.

If you can't understand the rest, I suggest you never watch a documentary. That doesn't even require Senior high levels of reading comprehension to glean the meaning of.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Not to say they're not well made, in fact they're very well made but that's the problem. They're too well made to the point the text becomes bloated, wordy, and hard to follow.

I've been playing Type-0 HD lately and I'm getting irked by how wordy the game is and how it tosses so many term.

Type-0 HD isn't the only victim of the wordiness. FFXIII is also wordy with its fal'Cie and l'Cie thing. FFXII had wordy stuff in the beginning and threw in a lot of terminologies.

Also, not to diss on recent DQ localizations (mobile games), but I'm having a hard time following the text due to the use of old English. I prefer a simple translation.

What you're talking about is more to do with story than actual localisation. All that terminology is still there in the Japanese version after all and, considering a lot of it has Latin and Germanic roots, it sounds even more ridiculous with an east asian language wrapped around it.

 

[Folstern]

Reading is hard.

The only thing that needs work is the VA direction.

 

[Moon_frogger]

I'd take that one step further and say the writing in general is absolute shit. FFXIII and it's ilk are barely tolerable. I skipped all the cut scenes after an hour. It's pathetically bad.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Their Dragon Quest localizations have been shit ever since rock slime.

Every time I hear someone else say this, I'm gratified.

 

[Texar]

I'll let you know when they announce Final Fantasy XII HD

 

[zennyzz]

I never got the proper noun complaint. What would people want them to call Rubrum, Milites, Concordia and Lorica?

Red Country, White Country, Blue Country and Black Country?

They didn't rename Midgar to Giant Plate City

Or Alexandria to Medieval Amazonia

People don't call The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland "Tea & Biscuit Land"

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

Problematic words: Peristylium, L'cie, Agito, Tempus Finis.

If you can't understand the rest, I suggest you never watch a documentary. That doesn't even require Senior high levels of reading comprehension to glean the meaning of.

Milites Empire
Peristylium (of different colors)
Dominion of Rubrum
L'cie
Pax Codex
Magitek Armor
Eidolon
qu'nmi
Imperial Cid Aulstyne
Chancellor Khalia Chival VI
Tempus Finis
Agito
Orience

A couple of those have been used in previous FF games (Eidolon, Magitek Armor), but that's an awful lot of terms & proper nouns to be bombarded with in such a short period of time.

I never got the proper noun complaint. What would people want them to call Rubrum, Milites, Concordia and Lorica?

It's not that you can't use proper nouns - it's that dumping a ton of proper nouns in an exposition chunk right at the beginning of a game is just bad writing.

 

[Muffdraul]

I don't really have a comprehensive opinion. Generally speaking, my hackles go up when the "localization expert" decides to arbitrarily change names. Doesn't matter if it's a character, a monster, a spell, a weapon, whatever. IMO localization should generally be limited to translating dialogue. A direct word for word translation would often be awkward, and sometimes it's just flat out impossible. I respect that aspect of the art of localization. But, unless character space is an issue, leave the fucking names alone.

As far as voice acting, it seems like Square is still stuck where they've always been: the English acting in their games is B-grade at best. Honestly, what I've heard so far in the FFXV demo sounds like a slight quality downgrade from what I last heard in the FFXIII games. Typical mediocre anime level. Very happy the dream has finally come true: option to have Japanese voice acting with English text.

 

[zennyzz]

Milites Empire
Peristylium (of different colors)
Dominion of Rubrum
L'cie
Pax Codex
Magitek Armor
Eidolon
qu'nmi
Imperial Cid Aulstyne
Chancellor Khalia Chival VI
Tempus Finis
Agito
Orience

A couple of those have been used in previous FF games (Eidolon, Magitek Armor), but that's an awful lot of terms & proper names to be bombarded with in such a short period of time.

1. The name of a country
2. The name of another country
3. Already mentioned
4. Codex is a term used today. Should someone also provide a description of convention when Geneva is brought up?
5. We're about 15 final fantasy entries late here
6. 20 with this one
7. Is a name, Like Zidane, or Squall, or Freya or Bartz
8. You're joking right?
9. See above
10. Already mentioned
11. Third verse same as the first.
12. Prefaced by "Their world called"

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Final Fantasy 13 lore relied on you having to quickly learn and differentiate a bunch of made up terms from the very start, it wasn't a clever idea...especially when they sounded so similar too, plus the story didn't have a prologue...it basically started on chapter 14 and only told you what had already happened later, so not only were you trying to learn these new phrases...you were also playing catch up with the story.

 

[RedAssedApe]

noctis is the only one that stands out to me...voice doesn't seem to match the character.

Final Fantasy 13 lore relied on you having to quickly learn and differentiate a bunch of made up terms from the very start, it wasn't a clever idea...especially when they sounded so similar too, plus the story didn't have a prologue...it basically started on chapter 14 and only told you what had already happened later, so not only were you trying to learn these new phrases...you were also playing catch up with the story.

anything that requires you to look at a text codex to remember what's going on in the game is not doing a good job :\

 

[Taruranto]

Their localizations have been overly liberal as of late. FFXIV had numerous cases where the script was changed significantly from the original Japanese. Sometimes this was to the improvement of the scene, but often the changes made the scenes significantly worse. :\

SCH is also a completely different job in Japanese lol.

 

[zennyzz]

When something like Chancellor or Imperial Marshal requires easing into I have to worry about the general state of the adult gaming population. Those are terms no less common than President or Prime Minister.

 

[V_Ben]

Their localizations need a lot of work to ensure they don't destroy the original intent behind the Japanese script. Also they desperately need better VA direction. It's embarrassing for such high budget games.

I wonder if the actors are working with context. At our studio, we try to give them as much to work with as possible... Creates better game performances.

We're going to be playing the XV demo a little at work tomorrow, localisation is one of our specialities.

 

[Caronte]

In my opinion their Spanish translations are now terrible too, which forced me to play in English. I remember XIII-2 being especially bad.

 

[Mandoric]

Well first of all, some original intent must exist. It doesn't matter if it's in English or Japanese. I know that English team helps with creating the lore, writing song lyrics and stuff like that, but we're talking about dialogue here. Somebody must've wrote it and somebody must've had an idea of what they were going for. The idea that was changed and now there's two versions of it. I don't really care how much freedom the English team has, there's still version differences, they still deserve to be called out. It's still a translation, you know? It's not like they completely rewrote everything.

This localization team can't fix descriptions of spells for months on end. I don't exactly trust them to be 100% competent 100% of the time. It might've stemmed from an honest miscommunication or a misplaced intent.

You're assigning significant differences based on your own poor understandings of the languages in question, and missing the point that FF14's loc process in particular relies on people passing along very clear ideas of what they're going for and dialog being written from that rather than reconstructed from the eventual results of JP side's flavor and style pass. You end up fetishizing the ~original Japanese experience~, which you're never going to have because the Japanese aren't reading a clunky and obvious word-for-word replacement of another language, and in 14's case may not even be original for any given line.

 

[Aureon]

Well, it's not FFT-WotlK or FF12 quality, sure.

Old english is awesome though.
Really awesome.

Italian FFIX was something special, i don't know what happened there - But they used like 8 different dialects, all perfectly. Was incredible.

 

[Nekofrog]

FF6's opening introduces one term (Esper) and one reference (War of the Magi).
FF13's first hour is an assault of nonsense terminology.

I find it more of an example of Square-Enix's terrible writing in general; localization is probably doing what they can to fix it.

It's a combination of a complete and total overwhelming information dump with not using already known mythological names in place of things like "fal'cie".

Back in my day (yikes), you'd get a story with a reasonable info dump that doesn't invent nonsense words to help you keep better track of things. Substitute "fal'cie" with something that people have heard before, even in passing.

 

[Pyrrhus]

You're assigning significant differences based on your own poor understandings of the languages in question, and missing the point that FF14's loc process in particular relies on people passing along very clear ideas of what they're going for and dialog being written from that rather than reconstructed from the eventual results of JP side's flavor and style pass. You end up fetishizing the ~original Japanese experience~, which you're never going to have because the Japanese aren't reading a clunky and obvious word-for-word replacement of another language, and in 14's case may not even be original for any given line.

Here's the problem. The English script is both out of step with the original language version (however you want to slice it, this is a Japanese game) and also Ren Faire grade purple prose crap in its own right.

How do you know that it's not a poor localisation, but simply poor source material?

Yes, but what if it's both?

 

[Tibbs-McGee]

How do you know that it's not a poor localisation, but simply poor source material?

 

[Vashetti]

FFXII's localisation is like Shakespeare by comparison.

Too bad the audio (voice) quality is like it was recorded on a phone, hopefully something that can be fixed with an HD Remaster.

 

[Muffdraul]

How do you know that it's not a poor localisation, but simply poor source material?

Believe it or not some of us actually know a word or two or a thousand of Japanese.

 

[Alex_Mexico]

No, OP. Square localization team is fine and they do their best. The problem is Square Japan's absolute shit writers they keep using. A game's story to be understood shouldn't need a fucking encyclopedia!