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[whipihguh]

Well if they're biologically, chemically, physically and psychologically different to humans then there's a pretty strong case to say that they aren't human.

I still think they're human as a base. They may have had augmentation, but their genetics and their base biology still makes them very much human. Enhanced, modified, you could even say they're somewhat broken humans from a psychological standpoint. But they're still human at the core.

Or at a basic level, they're human + a bunch of fancy trinkets, chemicals and a childhood filled with indoctrination.

 

[wesleyshark]

They are still very much human, but they are more advanced and on a higher plane of evolution, in a sense. They aren't transcended from a "base humanity" or anything like that.

 

[LordOfChaos]

There have been ideas thrown around that the Spartan IIs are the "Missing Link" of sorts, between our current state as humans, and the pre-devolution ancient Humans.

Still very much human though...Me and Hafthór Júlíus Björnsson are quite different, but we're both still human. If he had ceramic bones, augmented intelligence and speed and strength, that would still be the same.

I wonder how much gap still exists between 26th century human intelligence in Halo and ancient humanity. Not technology level - just basic cognition.

 

[whipihguh]

They are still very much human, but they are more advanced and on a higher plane of evolution, in a sense. They aren't transcended from a "base humanity" or anything like that.

I'm not even sure that's the right analogy. Unless I'm mistaken, the alterations done to the children who came Spartans weren't done on the genetic level, at least not to a point to make them incompatible with humans. Pretty much all the things done to them to make them stronger, faster, nimbler, etc. were done with varying types of technology. Their base genetic code itself was't altered. If a Spartan II had a kid, it wouldn't have the technological or chemical enhancements that it's parent had, would it?

I wonder how much gap still exists between 26th century human intelligence in Halo and ancient humanity. Not technology level - just basic cognition.

Did the Forerunners devolve the humans from a physical and mental level? It seemed from the Halo 4 terminals that it was basically just technological. The humans there don't how any differing signs of cognition that are alien to us.

 

[wesleyshark]

I think evolution is the wrong word to have used. Hmmm. I just mean- though the Spartans are augmented, they are still very much human.

 

[EroticSushi]

I'm not even sure that's the right analogy. Unless I'm mistaken, the alterations done to the children who came Spartans weren't done on the genetic level, at least not to a point to make them incompatible with humans. Pretty much all the things done to them to make them stronger, faster, nimbler, etc. were done with varying types of technology. Their base genetic code itself was't altered. If a Spartan II had a kid, it wouldn't have the technological or chemical enhancements that it's parent had, would it?

It's hard to say. Spartans 2's have a suppressed sex drive. I'm pretty sure IF they did have a kid somehow, it would be altered in some way. Both physically and mentally.

Did the Forerunners devolve the humans from a physical and mental level? It seemed from the Halo 4 terminals that it was basically just technological. The humans there don't how any differing signs of cognition that are alien to us.

They eliminated the human civilization entirely when they lost the war. They kept a handful and tossed them onto Earth but reduced us to our primitive state in the stone age. The only reason humans weren't destroyed entirely was because of the Librarian convincing the other Forerunners to let us survive.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Did the Forerunners devolve the humans from a physical and mental level? It seemed from the Halo 4 terminals that it was basically just technological. The humans there don't how any differing signs of cognition that are alien to us.

Post-devolution other Homo species returned, such as Homo floresiensis and neanderthals (that one doesn't really make sense if you go backwards from Homo Sapiens, but anywho..). So it was far more than just tech level I believe, they actually reverted us back to a more harmless state.

After the Didact awoke from his first slumber in the Cryptum, he noted that Chakas was too much like the ancient humans they warred with, that the Librarian had taken liberties with their genes. He wanted more like Riser, the Homo Floresiensis.

 

[whipihguh]

I think evolution is the wrong word to have used. Hmmm. I just mean- though the Spartans are augmented, they are still very much human.

Haha, yeah, I figure that's what you meant. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised of some of the Halo media used the term evolution incorrectly when it comes to what happened to ancient humanity (wouldn't know myself). Misuse of the term evolution is a pretty common thing in sci-fi.

It's hard to say. Spartans 2's have a suppressed sex drive. I'm pretty sure IF they did have a kid somehow, it would be altered in some way. Both physically and mentally.

I suppose there would be some differences with all they did to the Spartan IIs, but if their descendants were able to blend in with baseline humanity, that would mean they were human as well, enhancements and all.

They eliminated the human civilization entirely when they lost the war. They kept a handful and tossed them onto Earth but reduced us to our primitive state in the stone age. The only reason humans weren't destroyed entirely was because of the Librarian convincing the other Forerunners to let us survive.

Yeah, but that wouldn't be devolution per say, just a literal example of bombing someone back to the stone age. Unless there is something in the books mentioning them devolving us back to a more primitive state physically and mentally (not tech level, but actual cognition and sentience).

Post-devolution other Homo species returned, such as Homo floresiensis and neanderthals (that one doesn't really make sense if you go backwards from Homo Sapiens, but anywho... So it was far more than just tech level I believe, they actually reverted us back to a more harmless state.

Were they already there when the Forerunners destroyed human civilization? They might have just been able to thrive again once homo sapiens was brought down to their level.

Then again, what exactly is meant by "Human" civilization, anyway? Was it just Homo sapiens, or were the other branches from the Homo genus incorporated into the civilization as well?

 

[LordOfChaos]

Were they already there when the Forerunners destroyed human civilization? They might have just been able to thrive again once homo sapiens was brought down to their level.

Then again, what exactly is meant by "Human" civilization, anyway? Was it just Homo sapiens, or were the other branches from the Homo genus incorporated into the civilization as well?

That's a good point, I'm not actually sure. I'm trying to find the exact part of the book where he woke up and saw Chakas and Riser to reinterpret the hints, but my first impression had been he was surprised Homo Sapiens had returned. And since we know he didn't want to wipe out his enemies altogether at that time, I thought devolution was his alternative. And then he noted his wife had taken too many liberties with their gene plan or something.

Trying to find that part in the books now.

 

[whipihguh]

Waypoint does say that ancient humans were altogether stronger, larger and more intelligent than modern humans, but I am unsure if that was due to them evolving to that state naturally or due to genetic manipulation. I would figure in that case they were devolved, but to the natural baseline that they were originally. Because they do still seem remarkably similar to us in terms of physiology and psychologically, far more than any of the other species did in the Homo genus.

That may also be related to Halsey's "My Spartans are our destiny" line from Halo 4...

 

[LordOfChaos]

Waypoint does say that ancient humans were altogether stronger, larger and more intelligent than modern humans, but I am unsure if that was due to them evolving to that state naturally or due to genetic manipulation. I would figure in that case they were devolved, but to the natural baseline that they were originally. Because they do still seem remarkably similar to us in terms of physiology and psychologically, far more than any of the other species did in the Homo genus.

That may also be related to Halsey's "My Spartans are our destiny" line from Halo 4...

Maybe there just isn't enough detail on that timeframe to know exactly. Though either way, them being larger, stronger and smarter would lend credence to the theory that the Spartan IIs are something of a missing link going backwards, between us and them.

I wonder what the outcome of Forthencho vs John would be in many different aspects....

 

[Jessie.Bristol]

I am trying to follow this thread, but it became a Halo Lore thread.

 

[whipihguh]

Maybe there just isn't enough detail on that timeframe to know exactly. Though either way, them being larger, stronger and smarter would lend credence to the theory that the Spartan IIs are something of a missing link going backwards, between us and them.

I wonder what the outcome of Forthencho vs John would be in many different aspects....

It would indeed lend credence to that theory, although in that case, it does further confuse me when it's been repeatedly shown that non-Spartans are seemingly considered capable of Reclamation as well, at least with certain artifacts. So one wonders what exactly are the Spartans needed for if basline humans are considered capable in certain instances.

As much as I like John, I think Forthencho would be able to crush him in most of those different aspects. That tech's gonna trump a lot of what John can do, really.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

It's hard to say. Spartans 2's have a suppressed sex drive. I'm pretty sure IF they did have a kid somehow, it would be altered in some way. Both physically and mentally.

The children of Project Orion participants are known to retain some enhancements, so it seems likely the same would occur for the far more modified SIIs (I suspect children of SIIIs would be even more affected given all the extra hormonal/chemical tweaks they got).

Waypoint does say that ancient humans were altogether stronger, larger and more intelligent than modern humans, but I am unsure if that was due to them evolving to that state naturally or due to genetic manipulation. I would figure in that case they were devolved, but to the natural baseline that they were originally. Because they do still seem remarkably similar to us in terms of physiology and psychologically, far more than any of the other species did in the Homo genus.

That may also be related to Halsey's "My Spartans are our destiny" line from Halo 4...

I think it's almost guaranteed that humans heavily mutated themselves during and prior to the Human-Forerunner War era (well we know they did if you count their experimental solution to the Flood). Even in real life it's more or less an eventuality (the only question is how ubiquitous it will become), and in the Halo universe you have Forerunners mutating themselves to better fit societal classes and modern humans developing the (comparatively rudimentary) Spartan programs. So yeah, I think I return to a "basal state" seems most likely to me.

 

[AYF 001]

If a Spartan II had a kid, it wouldn't have the technological or chemical enhancements that it's parent had, would it?

Did the Forerunners devolve the humans from a physical and mental level? It seemed from the Halo 4 terminals that it was basically just technological. The humans there don't how any differing signs of cognition that are alien to us.

Actually, there's evidence from the children of Spartan I's, known as Spartan 1.1's:

Although they were not as advanced as the cybernetically- and surgically-enhanced Spartan-IIs or IIIs, or even their own chemically augmented parents, they were still physically superior to baseline humans.​

In addition, it is believed that our social structure is dependent on evolutionary circumstances, so it is possible that Ancient Humans had, either through natural or artificial means, altered their brain composition in order to focus or more collective and long-term goals, due to their extended life-spans and interplanetary civilization.

They are still very much human, but they are more advanced and on a higher plane of evolution, in a sense. They aren't transcended from a "base humanity" or anything like that.

One recurring theme that's always bugged me in sci-fi is that no matter how foreign an entity is to us, be it machine or alien, that they can be improved by "being more human". Also how any attempt to improve, diversify, or try an alternate way of life/thought process would tangibly detract from "what makes us human". For example, say someone could take any of us and made a carbon copy of us down to memories, but could remove the parts that are responsible for jealousy, or irrational fear and anger, or addictive tendencies. Would those dramatic changes, which one could attempt to, but not necessarily achieve over time, somehow make the copy "less of" or a worse version than the original? Or if the copy were then smarter and more physically capable than you, wouldn't they by any objective measure be superior to the original?

My point is, we're organisms that due what we need to survive, and ascribing some immaterial value to our behavior, including our often overlooked flaws, than can only be reduced if altered is a very ego-centric way of looking at our place in the universe.

 

[Toa TAK]

I am trying to follow this thread, but it became a Halo Lore thread.

The best kind.

 

[wesleyshark]

One recurring theme that's always bugged me in sci-fi is that no matter how foreign an entity is to us, be it machine or alien, that they can be improved by "being more human". Also how any attempt to improve, diversify, or try an alternate way of life/thought process would tangibly detract from "what makes us human". For example, say someone could take any of us and made a carbon copy of us down to memories, but could remove the parts that are responsible for jealousy, or irrational fear and anger, or addictive tendencies. Would those dramatic changes, which one could attempt to, but not necessarily achieve over time, somehow make the copy "less of" or a worse version than the original? Or if the copy were then smarter and more physically capable than you, wouldn't they by any objective measure be superior to the original?

In humanity's quest to become "more than human" they are actually becoming less than human, in the end, and it's a slow regression of what makes who we are, as we strive to become what we are not or were not meant to be.

 

[Poodlestrike]

I am trying to follow this thread, but it became a Halo Lore thread.

Not much else to talk about until the ARG really kicks off, lol.

 

[Anon67]

This thread is amazing. I just love how people are putting so much thought in the Halo lore. I wish I knew some of you.

 

[wesleyshark]

I am trying to follow this thread, but it became a Halo Lore thread.

The best kind.

Halo Lore Thread 2: Electric Uggoyaloo

 

[Jessie.Bristol]

Not much else to talk about until the ARG really kicks off, lol.

The best kind.

Halo Lore Thread 2: Electric Uggoyaloo

Enough!!! Do you want my head to explode!?

 

[Munki]

If a Spartan II had a kid, it wouldn't have the technological or chemical enhancements that it's parent had

No, but the children selected for the SII program had specific genetic markers which made them special. Consider them the cream of the crop in terms of human potential, with that being said their kids would most probably have those special qualities passed onto them.

 

[whipihguh]

No, but the children selected for the SII program had specific genetic markers which made them special. Consider them the cream of the crop in terms of human potential, with that being said their kids would most probably have those special qualities passed onto them.

The children of Project Orion participants are known to retain some enhancements, so it seems likely the same would occur for the far more modified SIIs (I suspect children of SIIIs would be even more affected given all the extra hormonal/chemical tweaks they got).

Actually, there's evidence from the children of Spartan I's, known as Spartan 1.1's:

Huh, well alright then, then it seems some of the more non-technological characteristics would likely linger on. The only question then is if those descendants could further incorporate themselves in with the rest of humanity. I suppose they could, but I could be wrong.

I am trying to follow this thread, but it became a Halo Lore thread.

Wait, are you saying this isn't the Lore thread?

 

[wesleyshark]

No, but the children selected for the SII program had specific genetic markers which made them special. Consider them the cream of the crop in terms of human potential, with that being said their kids would most probably have those special qualities passed onto them.

Potentially yes, as those "markers" were genetic and inherited from a parent or grandparent

Spoiler

or for one particular kid from something planted within his ancestor's genome thousands of years prior.

It would come down to them being dominant or recessive traits, but it's basically moot at this point, as they are all adults at the current, and have little to zero sexual drive.

 

[LordOfChaos]

No, but the children selected for the SII program had specific genetic markers which made them special.

I've wondered if what Halsey and her team were actually searching for, without knowing it, were genetic markers for the Geas's set into motion by the Librarian and Co.

Not that she planned those specific individuals, just put the seeds for individuals like them to continually pop up in human society as different peoples genes intermingled.

 

[Apollo Cree]

I'm curious why there was no mention of any kind of breeding program. Sure, they have reduced sex drives but there are ways to make more Spartan babies. Ethics obviously isn't a problem.

This whole they're not human thing is kind of silly to me. They're humans, they're just on the far end of the bell curve. It's like a professional athlete.

 

[AYF 001]

In humanity's quest to become "more than human" they are actually becoming less than human, in the end, and it's a slow regression of what makes who we are, as we strive to become what we are not or were not meant to be.

In most cases like that depicted, there are usually serious trade-offs that people don't consider, and the advances are depicted as being made for or taken in order to achieve material/personal gain. I doubt installing a microchip that could turn off a gambler or junkie's addiction, or make them more understanding of another person's feelings or decisions would make them "less". The idea that shear willpower and determination can overcome every obstacle is a platitude made by those who have everything, and who likely didn't even earn it. Because if we didn't spend so much time fighting our flaws, we could look outwards and see much bigger problems and tackle them a lot more effectively. Anyway, I might getting off topic, regardless of the trajectory's merit.

Is there going to be an "ultimate volume" for the Escalation comics, since I haven't read them, but wanna pick them up? I don't wanna spend $45 for 3 volumes if there's still more and a potentially cheaper option down the road.

 

[wesleyshark]

Wait, are you saying this isn't the Lore thread?

 

[wesleyshark]

Is there going to be an "ultimate volume" for the Escalation comics, since I haven't read them, but wanna pick them up? I don't wanna spend $45 for 3 volumes if there's still more and a potentially cheaper option down the road.

There may be. There was one for Initiation, though that was a lot shorter in duration.

I'll be happy with a few trade volumes, tbh. Trades look nice on my bookshelf.

Edit:

Volume 1 - available now

Volume 2 - available April 21st

Volume 3 - available September 22nd

I'd imagine that there might be an ultimate hardcover edition, but that probably wouldn't be released until November/December maybe. I'm not entirely sure how long Escalation is going to run for, either. Have they said if it will stop at Halo 5, or if it will continue past Halo 5's release?

 

[Arby 'n' the Chief]

A suppressed sex drive was a possible risk during Augmentation so it probably didn't affect every spartan 2.

Take Maria-062 for example, who retired with the intent of starting a family

http://www.halopedia.org/Maria-062

I wonder if Chief's sex drive is suppressed or not

They never gave us this detail

 

[wesleyshark]

A suppressed sex drive was a possible risk during Augmentation so it probably didn't affect every spartan 2.

Take Maria-062 for example, who retired with the intent of starting a family

http://www.halopedia.org/Maria-062

I wonder if Chief's sex drive is suppressed or not

They never gave us this detail

With the intent, yes, but the result thereof hasn't been offered as official lore yet (might never be). Not sure if Chief's is or not, but given that he's only emotionally attached to one other character, and that character is an AI, I don't think that really matters lol.

 

[SpartanN92]

The book says "Suppressed Sex Drive"

Not non existent.

 

[LordOfChaos]

A suppressed sex drive was a possible risk during Augmentation so it probably didn't affect every spartan 2.

Take Maria-062 for example, who retired with the intent of starting a family

http://www.halopedia.org/Maria-062

I wonder if Chief's sex drive is suppressed or not

They never gave us this detail

Imagine all the shattered pelvises if they had sex drives and fell for non-spartan members of their opposite sexes

 

[Arby 'n' the Chief]

With the intent, yes, but the result thereof hasn't been offered as official lore yet (might never be). Not sure if Chief's is or not, but given that he's only emotionally attached to one other character, and that character is an AI, I don't think that really matters lol.

Ha true but I do wonder if he'll ever meet Parissa again (If she's still alive that is) He promised marriage and you do know how he likes to keep his promises

Imagine all the shattered pelvises if they had sex drives and fell for non-spartan members of their opposite sexes

 

[wesleyshark]

The book says "Suppressed Sex Drive"

Not non existent.

 

[whipihguh]

Heh, I have a feeling situations similar to this have probably happened in a great of deal of earlier Halo threads.

Is Escalation actually any good? I mean, the art definitely leaves a lot to be desired, but looking at more recent synopses, it seems like it's going to have a pretty significant connection to Halo 5, with

Spoiler

Halsey and Jul going to the Absolute Record

. I'd like to get into it if so, but if it isn't too great, I can definitely just stick with Halopedia or something at this point.

 

[AYF 001]

*Revival intensifies*

A suppressed sex drive was a possible risk during Augmentation so it probably didn't affect every spartan 2.

Take Maria-062 for example, who retired with the intent of starting a family

http://www.halopedia.org/Maria-062

I wonder if Chief's sex drive is suppressed or not

They never gave us this detail

Well sex drive isn't the same as fertility, or even sexual pleasure. So they could still be capable of having children. Though from a Halseyan perspective, that "side-effect" would help divert libido towards more productive uses, rather thanreproductive

 

[wesleyshark]

Heh, I have a feeling situations similar to this have probably happened in a great of deal of earlier Halo threads.

Is Escalation actually any good? I mean, the art definitely leaves a lot to be desired, but looking at more recent synopses, it seems like it's going to have a pretty significant connection to Halo 5, with

Spoiler

Halsey and Jul going to the Absolute Record

. I'd like to get into it if so, but if it isn't too great, I can definitely just stick with Halopedia or something at this point.

It's not bad, all in all. The artwork varies from issue to issue from being mediocre to being decent. I want to say that there's a new artist coming in for the next arc, but I may have misread that. Either way, it's not as bad some might say. It definitely propels the story forward and it'll be setting up a lot of key elements for Halo 5, so I'd say that it's worth getting. Since we know Halo 5 isn't out until October, you've got plenty of time to catch up, or just wait until volume 3 releases and buy all 3 at once and veg.

I was receiving them monthly but I decided to cancel all of my comic subs and only buy trades, so I'll be a bit behind as well until vol 2 and 3 are available.

*Revival intensifies*

Dem. Feels.

Easily one of the best selections from Halo 4's OST.

 

[whipihguh]

It's not bad, all in all. The artwork varies from issue to issue from being mediocre to being decent. I want to say that there's a new artist coming in for the next arc, but I may have misread that. Either way, it's not as bad some might say. It definitely propels the story forward and it'll be setting up a lot of key elements for Halo 5, so I'd say that it's worth getting. Since we know Halo 5 isn't out until October, you've got plenty of time to catch up, or just wait until volume 3 releases and buy all 3 at once and veg.

I pretty much do that with any other comic, so I suppose I'll do the same here!

I suppose even with Escalation's...interesting art, I can understand it, coming from the constant delays from Marvel when they were making the comics. The art may not be great, but at least Dark Horse seems to get them out on time.

Well sex drive isn't the same as fertility, or even sexual pleasure. So they could still be capable of having children. Though from a Halseyan perspective, that "side-effect" would help divert libido towards more productive uses, rather thanreproductive

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

Imagine all the shattered pelvises if they had sex drives and fell for non-spartan members of their opposite sexes

The book says "Suppressed Sex Drive"

Not non existent.

Spartans II with active sex drives ...

 

[AYF 001]

It's not bad, all in all. The artwork varies from issue to issue from being mediocre to being decent. I want to say that there's a new artist coming in for the next arc, but I may have misread that. Either way, it's not as bad some might say. It definitely propels the story forward and it'll be setting up a lot of key elements for Halo 5, so I'd say that it's worth getting. Since we know Halo 5 isn't out until October, you've got plenty of time to catch up, or just wait until volume 3 releases and buy all 3 at once and veg.

I was receiving them monthly but I decided to cancel all of my comic subs and only buy trades, so I'll be a bit behind as well until vol 2 and 3 are available.



Dem. Feels.

Easily one of the best selections from Halo 4's OST.

I had heard about the artwork, and was hoping the collections might have "retouched" it somewhat.

Also I think the Halo 4 soundtrack was quite good overall; it just didn't have that O'Donnell-esque integration in the game we've been used to for so long.

Edit:

Fixed

 

[wesleyshark]

Busted out laughing at that.

Spoiler

Mostly because it's true.

Spartans II with active sex drives ...

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I'd imagine that there might be an ultimate hardcover edition, but that probably wouldn't be released until November/December maybe. I'm not entirely sure how long Escalation is going to run for, either. Have they said if it will stop at Halo 5, or if it will continue past Halo 5's release?

There's no announced end date, but I hope it ends before too long. It's cool and all, but a continuing comic series is basically a Halo lore fan tax. >.< I already gotta buy a game a 5 books this year...

 

[whipihguh]

Also I think the Halo 4 soundtrack was quite good overall; it just didn't have that O'Donnell-esque integration in the game we've been used to for so long.

I quite like the Halo 4 as well. I mean, I still prefer O'Donnell's work, but O'Donnell is extremely hard to beat when it comes to game soundtracks.

Although, I do prefer Jinnouchi's work to Davidge's by far.

Fixed

But that doesn't roll off the tongue as well!

 

[wesleyshark]

There's no announced end date, but I hope it ends before too long. It's cool and all, but a continuing comic series is basically a Halo lore fan tax. >.< I already gotta buy a game a 5 books this year...

Spoiler

I'm a willing participant in emptying my wallet for new lore extensions. Halp

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Spoiler

I'm a willing participant in emptying my wallet for new lore extensions. Halp

I would be more willing if I had anything to empty from my wallet.

Spoiler

amiibo don't help

 

[wesleyshark]

Although, I do prefer Jinnouchi's work to Davidge's by far.

Yes yes. I think he's going to do amazing work for Halo 5, judging by the Halo 5 beta menu tunes.

 

[whipihguh]

Yes yes. I think he's going to do amazing work for Halo 5, judging by the Halo 5 beta menu tunes.

Oh, is Jinnouchi doing the soundtrack for Halo 5? I didn't know that. Good, good. I was wondering who was gonna work on the Halo 5 soundtrack, since I hadn't heard anything on Davidge returning.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Oh, is Jinnouchi doing the soundtrack for Halo 5? I didn't know that. Good, good. I was wondering who was gonna work on the Halo 5 soundtrack, since I hadn't heard anything on Davidge returning.

iirc Jinnouchi is permanent 343i staff. Davidge was doing contract work, and since we haven't heard anything I'm assuming he's not coming back.

 

[RadioHammer500]

is there a "chosen one" prophecy for Chief...

or is it just he is called a "savior" for his amazing accomplishments...

he is the greatest soldier in terms of achievements in UNSC history