Ganzlinger
Member
I can bet my soul on this.
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Boruto: Naruto the Movie Teaser Trailer
- Thread starter chicagocubsfan
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Not 'kay.
You literally made up your own definition of worldbuilding to support your hokey interpretation of the themes and plot of the series.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldbuilding
I'm not interested in arguing semantics with someone who wants to "lecture a fellow gaffer" when they start off their lecture with the bolded statement. The condescension is amusing, though.
So then could you elaborate on why and what exactly made the Worldbuilding that great? Because as far as i saw, you didn't made your point clear while Veelk has.
chicagocubsfan
Member
I want Orochimaru to be his teacher.
That would be hilarious.
That would be hilarious.
Because the chuunin exams are a high point for the series and this is a return to that? people also wanted power levels to be scaled down.
Post #150. Shippuuden specifically introduced a bevy of characters spanning other countries that had been established and fleshed out over the course of the series, and while it's still a shounen named after the title character (so therefore it revolves around him), unless you're ignoring entire progressive arcs wholesale, you can't possibly argue that Kishi didn't go out of his way to make the world seem alive.
Compare this to Dragonball where the world isn't so defined - where are they located? How is the rest of the world dealing with these events? You have "Earth" which is one city and the surrounding areas where they fight, and then you have abstract other locations like Namek. Saiyans come from Planet Vegeta, where do all these other aliens come from? (The answer is WHO CARES pew pew pew smack pow!)
Whether all of the worldbuilding Kishi did eventually ended up at some genius intersection isn't the point - the fact is that it's there. That people in this thread need to have it pointed out that a mixed-blood Hyuuga wouldn't have permanent Byakugan eyes only proves that the circlejerk is real. If you feel personally slighted by the story going in a direction you didn't anticipate or agree with, that's a discussion, but it's not the discussion I was having.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Veelk has clearly misunderstood several things and I'm guessing its due to just skimming over the manga.
Wanna know of what's doubly amusing? Someone telling me I'm wrong, before personally sending me the a link that proving me right. Apparently, the actual reason you don't want to argue is because want to be your own opponent. Much appreciated.
First off, lets take a step back and point out that you are using DBZ as the standard of worldbuilding quality. This is a thing that is actually happening.
Second, you're right. Who the hell cares where Namek is? The tension of the story was centered around the Z warriors getting there before Freeza did his shit. The only way that is important is that it would put a timer on the action, but that was only going to be tense if toriyama didn't artificially manipulate it to make Goku arrive in the nick of time. It'd be really impressive if he calculated the distance and speed of the aircraft before and wrote the events happening on namek so it arrived just on time, sure, but in all likelihood, he'd just have sped it up to make it dramatic and convenient. Otherwise, it doesn't matter how far away namek is, because the answer is "Just far enough to put the Z characters in danger, but not so far that Goku doesn't makes it". As far as Naruto goes, sure, we know that land of whatever is south of land of whocares, but it's not like we have measurements or that it's necessarily relevant to anything. If it was west of it, it would have made no difference. If you just want pointless trivial information for the sake of having pointless trivial information, then sure, that's worldbuilding, I don't think I ever denied that Naruto world built, but it's not meaningful in any sense. Simply having worldbuilding isn't a virtue in storytelling and can often be a liability. Having good worldbuilding is what you want.
Lastly, if bullshit like wondering how the Byakugan would work in a mixed blood hyuga is what blows your mind in Naruto worldbuilding stuff, then DBZ is in the same league, since the traits of a half-saiyan are indeed distinct from those of a full blooded saiyan. Apparently, DBZ isn't as shit in regards to worldbuilding by your standards, you're just not paying enough attention.
I just stopped reading it several years ago, and have heard second hand accounts, so sure, I'm not 100% clear on the exact middling details of what went down.
However, there is a reason I stopped reading, and the rampant bad writing was the primary one. And what I do know is that the purpose of worldbuilding, or any narrative tool, is to support the central narrative. If you write a theme of being the underdog that gets to where he is through hard work, then writing a world that has a set destiny where in he's going to get where he wants to no matter what is undermining the character, so the worldbuilding is being badly used. But as I said, I'll go into more detail whenever I sit down and read the whole manga.
Ah all right, didn't saw that.
But yeah the world in Naruto is way more developed than Dragon Ball. My only gripe is that after the Time skip there was less and less focus on the overall cast with included some very interesting Characters, but more on the less interesting main characters. (and yeah, it's only natural that it focuses on the mains, I just didn't care that much for them)
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
I actually think this was because it was not what people wanted. We had a really cool arc, the Immortal Arc, where the focus was put on Shikamaru and Team 10 but iirc the sales were notably lower. Its been a long time so I'm not sure how accurate this is but I remember reading about it.
Icyflamez96
Member
I'm aware, and it makes sense, but I can't really shake the feeling that this is going to be different.
Anyway, doesn't matter to me. They both sound almost equally as bad :x
I don't know why this is turning into a thing. All the guy said is she ended up becoming the "strongest kunoichi" and it's not a statement that's too far off regardless of the rest of that stuff you're bringing up. (Tsunade and Mei are debatable I guess, and of course Kaguya)
Oro is probably the villain, I mean its bad Kishi never brought it up if he was captured.
chicagocubsfan
Member
Then he will call that murderous psychopath the coolest person he knows.
He just like his dad. (that moment in Naruto with Obito is fucking awful)
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said. The world building in Naruto is a step above a lot of other shonen. Most places, organizations, or people that get a name drop, even super early on in the series, end up being explored in one way or another later on. My only real beef with the way the world is "built" is that flashbacks seem random and intermittent. Here's a flashback about Hashiram and Madara in Chapter X. Flash forward three years later (real time) to Chapter Y and we get another Hashirama/Madara flashback that takes place at relatively the same time but reveals new, crucial information that they skipped over last time just because.
Oh boy. Let's take a deep breath here, I didn't mean to insult your reputation as Naruto Guru whom board members summon to explain things on their behalf. (so awesome that you don't even need to read the series in full, you're just that good, damn you...)
Naruto is not an underdog character, he fits a chosen one archetype - the descendant of one of the strongest ninja in Hidden Leaf memory who pulled off impossible forgotten Jutsu and invented his own, saving the village if not the world. Naruto also has a trump card demon inside of him that will literally heal mortal wounds if he ever takes any. In fact there are whole arcs where he uses luck/ingenuity to bypass hard work, like when he stumbled upon the fact that his clones could be used to gain basically years of training in a short amount of time. This is his hyperbolic time chamber except he sits there meditating and lets his clones net him EXP .
I think you're confusing Naruto with Neji and Guy/Lee. If anything you have it backwards, Sasuke busted his ass under the tutelage of Orochimaru learning everything he possibly could before killing him. Jiraiya couldn't keep ADHD Naruto focused for very long, which spurred them into finding shortcuts. For fuck's sake, he cheated in the Chuunin exams too!
Like others pointed out I think you ought to go back and re-read it and maybe not be such a negative edgelord.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
I can see where you would get the underdog part. In the very beginning before you really know that he's a Jinchuriki. After you know that, it's all destiny.
Glass Rebel
Member
Nah, this ain't Bleach.
Icyflamez96
Member
Well they're a couple thoughts I have on that.
Sasuke didn't do too too much. He became rogue but helped the world out by taking down some Akatsuki members, and Orochimaru.
His most questionable feat was killing Danzo, and even he was shady and not good for the leaf. Antagonizing all of the kage wasn't a good look though.
Oh and capturing Bee.
He helped save the whole world at the end from the Infinite Tsukuyomi. That's not exactly a feat that I think should be overlooked in the whole redemption thing. So while even so his redemption may have felt a bit weak, it's not that bad when you look back at all of the details.
And if you don't buy that, I didn't give my main argument as to why people let him off the hook.
who tf gonna stop this busta. sasuke can't be contained, except by naruto, and of course, sasuke has the approval of ninja jesus. those people have no choice but to be ecstatic that sasuke became a good guy after everything that happened.
He did a decent amount of bad, but what he did that was good outweighs it for sure.
Yeah, he was altered to be the chosen one archtype when Kishimoto basically changed his mind on the entire thing and reworked stuff to match that later on. However, I don't know how you can argue that his entire arc in atleast part 1 hasn't been about how no one believed in him and he had to struggle to get the respect of people who were born into positions of respect and power. His conflict with Sasuke and Neji are all based on this heavily.
The alteration of how the world was structured, that suddenly Naruto was the heir to this centuries old conflict of the two most powerful warring clans felt artificial given that simply was not his character before, with the most significant aspect of his character being hinted at to be the 4th's kid, who was a strong hokage, but not having any part of this Uchiha nonsense. A huge emphasis of early naruto was that he was just some nobody kid that wanted to have a great dream. I can't even begin to count how many times he's said something to the effect of "Well, since I can't get it the normal way, I'll work hard to get it." That he relies on his birthright or sorts, the Kyubi, is one of the flaws of the series that readers have been calling him out on since day 1. In particular, people called bullshit on his fight with neji, how he attributed his victory to having learned the clone technique, not the fox, which he sucked at in the academy, 'proving' neji wrong that people can improve and aren't stuck as losers. That's one of the reasons Naruto is as flawed as it is, the main character would have us believe he is working to his ends all this time, but it's all very reliant on being lucky to be born with a large volume of chakra. Nearly all his successes, from his very first mission to his learning the Rasengan, can be attributed that he wouldn't be able to work that hard without the Kyubi, but he and other characters attribute to his determination for never giving up and working hard until he gets it.
The thing we seem to disagree about is how you seem convinced that since Naruto relies on his kyubi or that the writer ended up deciding he wants him to be the chosen one, that it was always planned this way or that there is no incongruence with how things were before. This is simply not true, and the characters have stated such multiple times that they would have the reader believe Naruto's success is evidence of his resolved will rather than the giant furball powerhouse he has in his navel. Characters frame his rivalry with Sasuke as absurd, when it actuality it was all but destiny that they be at each other throats, for similar reasons as their ancestors, despite not even being aware of them. And before all this Senju-Uchiha nonsense, other characters and clans were given far more importance in the story, making the world truly feel more alive for having characters of equal import leading their own lives and having their own stories. When everything becomes about these two clans with everyone else being subordinate to them, they just become stooges in the conflict of these two clans. It annoyed me how they became footnotes in a world where they had a lot of prominence. All this is not worldbuilding that has a positive affect to the story it is telling.
For the record, I've reread up to the chunin part maybe 5 times, the whole of part 1 3 times atleast, read through up to chapter 500 or so once. I feel I have a pretty good memory, and I am using more numerous and specific examples of it than you. I admit that I don't remember the later parts of the timeskip as well as the earlier, but I feel I have a pretty good grasp of most of what Naruto does as a manga. It is kind of absurd to claim that someone doesn't understand what is going on after reading 500 chapters of it instead of the full 700. I didn't even want to get involved, but if I'm being a 'negative edgelord' it's because I will not be dismissed by someone who can't tell the difference between plot and worldbuilding and then sends me a link affirming my definition of worldbuilding as a way of proving me wrong. I'd rather not have this discussion at all until I personally have the inclination for it, which I don't now, but I hate actually putting in the effort of justifying my argument and being dismissed without good reason.
But you are right and I should stop, as I have other stuff to do today. It's a fault of mine, getting into an argument and just having to have the last word in. But if you're going to argue for naruto, my advice would be to stop jumping from different points. the discussion here is worldbuilding, correct? My argument was that the worldbuilding fails to support, among other things, the themes that the manga tries to have or tried to have. To counter this, first you said I was talking about plot (incorrect), then you said that it had more inane trivial information than DBZ as a positive (irrelevant), now you're trying to dispute whether it had the themes I say it had (which, if you are still in doubt of, I can get direct quotes of characters that talk about how it's all about the hard work you put in). Instead, if you want to convince me of the world building of Naruto is good, tell me how it supports the story it's trying to tell in a positive way. Because there is no point to any aspect of stories that doesn't support the narrative being told in some way.
It didn't necessarily have to stop there. After all, just because you have a large power source doesn't mean you are able to or even should use it. The Kyubi could have been as much a handicap as a utility if it had been written differently, while other characters have their inherent power given freely with the only obstacle being that they have to master it (like the Sharingan). An underdog is simply someone whose disadvantaged enough that their victory is unlikely. But once you start with Naruto being the chosen one, that goes out the window.
The Silver
Member
It was always weird how they always tried to to frame Sasuke as the genius to Naruto's hardwork, as if Sasuke doesn't bust his ass. Everything we're shown about Sasuke shows he works just as hard as Naruto, yeah he picks things up faster but he doesn't stop there, he keeps going and going.
Trying to show scenes of Naruto throwing kunai all day as if Sasuke wasn't also out there all day nearly burning his face off trying to learn the fireball jutsu.
Naruto is definitely an underdog archtype starting out, he then changes into the chosen ninja jesus in a way that felt like it undermined his previous underdog status.
Trying to show scenes of Naruto throwing kunai all day as if Sasuke wasn't also out there all day nearly burning his face off trying to learn the fireball jutsu.
Naruto is definitely an underdog archtype starting out, he then changes into the chosen ninja jesus in a way that felt like it undermined his previous underdog status.
Icyflamez96
Member
Throughout the series, I'd say he worked harder than Narujesus.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Thats always irked me as well and has led to misconceptions from people. Just being an Uchiha doesn't make you a genius....look at Obito lol. Sasuke trains just as hard as Naruto and with the same perseverance.
Eh... Kind of impossible. With Naruto's inhumane endurance, he could put forth more effort in his training than anyone. It's why he was able to get the hang of the Rasengan within a few weeks. Even the Tajū Kage Bunshin no Jutsu training method still involved him physically workin' his tail off. Then, with Sasuke...
Orochimaru's Shirohebi no Chikara.
The Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan.
Training is like all Sasuke really does besides journeying from one battleground to the other. I'm usually the first to advocate the effort he puts into the development of his abilities, but... Relatively, he has had easy acquisition and mastery of the above abilities. And second, Kishimoto didn't show enough of that effort during Sasuke's downtime. So, it's easy to understand why readers get the impression that everything came so easy for Sasuke.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
When did that happen? because it seems he was just handed upgrade after upgrade for little work on his part.
Eyes got so many upgrades to them, and new abilities, that their entire original purpose was lost. It was a red dues ex for whatever jutsu he or other uchiha needed.
The only work he did was figure out which enemy to defect to this time to get the next quick powerup. When he ran out of those, he decided to become a super villain and murder the kages, until ninja jesus beat some sense into him.
Icyflamez96
Member
Little work? He put in a bunch of work. At least he was shown to have a bunch of battle experience that helped him develop his abilities. Naruto is the one who felt like many of his power ups were cheap. The whole thing with the shadow clone hack that made his training exponentially quicker, and getting sage mode with the help of it. The jump from his normal mode to sage mode was huge. He was a completely different person with it. Then he after the battle with the nine tails, he became mini jesus. Again, a huge jump. Then he made friends with the nine tails, and got another huge jump. Sasuke definitely didn't have jumps that I felt were that jarring throughout the series. His progression was much better paced.
The kages were the ones beating sense into him. Naruto didn't do anything to him at that moment unless you're referring to the very end of the manga.
He figured out an exploit to get the rasengan down in that amount of time. It wasn't until a long while when he was able to do it without clones.
The kages were the ones beating sense into him. Naruto didn't do anything to him at that moment unless you're referring to the very end of the manga.
He figured out an exploit to get the rasengan down in that amount of time. It wasn't until a long while when he was able to do it without clones.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
The only power ups he got from the sharingan was Susano and Amaterasu.
Everything else before that was hard work. He even made some of his own jutsu's like the long lightning sword. He probably also worked on controlling amaterasu as he's able to change its form. Kishi never showed much unfortunately.
Oh and yes the sharingan is overpowered.
Miles Quaritch
Member
I'll watch,but when will the anime leave filler?
I'm really starting to get pissed off...just get with it already...
I'm really starting to get pissed off...just get with it already...
The Silver
Member
Kishi really dropped the ball with Naruto's training with Jiraiya, his fundamentals were a lot better but like........J-Man seriously didn't tell Naruto what his chakra nature was? The only new jutsu he learned was....a bigger rasengan?
Sakura made bigger gains.
Sakura made bigger gains.
Icyflamez96
Member
You could say that, I just felt like Sasuke's felt better paced in relation to the work we see him putting in. He was fighting person after person, and got an ability upgrade here and there that progressively incremented his power. Naruto jumps were huge in comparison.
As for the time skip, we can definitely see the progress that Sasuke made, and we know he's been working hard with Orochimaru.
I don't think we can really tell just how much effort Naruto put in during the time skip, but it didn't seem like Jiraya did that much with him.
You can't be serious...
The world of Dragon Ball is fairly simple, but well defined overall.
"One city"? Guess not paying attention would do that to you...
"Where do these other aliens come from?" Er... Other planets? Do you need their complete addresses, too?
Naruto's worldbuilding is about as terrible as its plot.
Take the Chûnin exams, for one thing.
"Kids, in order to have you reach the Chûnin rank, we gonna have send you to another nation's military base so you pass some potentially life-threatening tests under their supervision. Sure, we were at war with them fairly recently and are still spying on them / fighting them every now and then (in fact, that's pretty much all we do, as ninja), but never mind that! Just go and show off all of your secret techniques!"
That makes no fucking sense, Kishimoto.
"Er... Er... Something something balance of power...?"
No, Kishimoto.
Then, I find it pretty awesome how you manage to criticize Dragon Ball's world, when Naruto constantly forgets that its world isn't (well, "shouldn't be") entirely made up of ninja villages (with some forests in-between).
"Alright, let's ally ourselves and start a fourth world war! ... Oh, and I guess we'll have to let the Daimyô know about that, too. Maybe."
Hell, during the war, Kishimoto actually used the names of the villages instead of the names of the countries they were supposed to protect: "oh, the bad guys will go through there, so we'll have to tell *ninja village name* to evacuate!"
Also, if you're a kid in a ninja village, of course you'll want to become a ninja. What else and why not? Becoming a soldier at age 12 is awesome! And thank you Hashirama for this new system that waits for kids to be "of age" before you send them to the front!
And of course, you have stuff like Madara being the founder of the Uchiha clan or nope whoops not really the founder just the leader at some point in time. And he co-founded the village and has this big-ass statue so everybody knows about him... except Sasuke, 'cause it's not like he's supposed to be a prodigy obsessed with his clan or anything like that!
Or asspull techniques that make no sense, like Izanami, which apparently was created because Uchiha were abusing... Izanagi? That technique that costs you an eye every time you use it? And requires you to possess the power of both Uchiha and Senju? Okay!
Not that you'd want to try and figure out when Uchiha were abusing something like that anyway, as the chronology is completely out of wack. No wonder no calendar or dates were ever mentioned in the story: there's just no way to make sense of that mess (something the guys who compiled the data books must have realized by now, after their timid attempts).
(And that's just off the top of my head.)
The Silver
Member
Sasuke got zenkais in comparison to Naruto's super saiyan jumps.
Seelentau am cry.
I think it may have been alluded that Jiraiya had spent a sizable amount of time trying to develop Naruto's abilities as a Jinchūriki, which he had to abandon once the threat of the Kyūbi's possession nearly got him killed.
I believe he had grown a lot more competent than we were lead to believe, but it's not like he was being given enough opportunities to actually show that. If you recall, the fight against Pain was his first truly legitimate battle in Part 2that took ridiculously long.
I suspect that after Kishimoto switched editors, he was clued in on how too much attention was being focused on Sasuke, and took some desperate measures to force Naruto back in the spotlight.
Icyflamez96
Member
Oh yeah that's right.
Yeah Sasuke did have way too much focus in his feats compared to Naruto in part two. I mean, I liked his battles, maybe some of the team taka stuff could have been toned down, or maybe I wouldn't be saying that if they were more interesting... Idk, there definitely should have been more of Naruto. It's ridiculous that it took that long to get him a full fight.
Just FYI, Volume 1, Chapter 1, Page 35 is where Naruto learns he is the special Chosen One Nine-Tailed Jinchuuriki.
If you somehow kept hoping he was getting by just on his own merits for the next 699 volumes, I dunno what to tell you. Naruto embodies perseverance but one of his character flaws is that while he tells everyone he's going to be super great, he also screws off until last minute. When he's throwing kunai and running up trees earlier in the series it's because he was too busy farting around the village annoying people and getting into mischief while everyone else was doing schoolwork and training.
Regardless I'm of the opinion that comparatively to other manga the worldbuilding in Naruto is above average and even commendable. Refuting that with an opinion on how that worldbuilding is bad because you didn't feel it served the plot doesn't necessarily mean the worldbuilding is poor. The two are in fact mutually exclusive even though they both are important in storytelling.
If you somehow kept hoping he was getting by just on his own merits for the next 699 volumes, I dunno what to tell you. Naruto embodies perseverance but one of his character flaws is that while he tells everyone he's going to be super great, he also screws off until last minute. When he's throwing kunai and running up trees earlier in the series it's because he was too busy farting around the village annoying people and getting into mischief while everyone else was doing schoolwork and training.
Regardless I'm of the opinion that comparatively to other manga the worldbuilding in Naruto is above average and even commendable. Refuting that with an opinion on how that worldbuilding is bad because you didn't feel it served the plot doesn't necessarily mean the worldbuilding is poor. The two are in fact mutually exclusive even though they both are important in storytelling.
Starwolf_UK
Member
Should I be glad or sad that the video in the OP is removed?
Then again in the past the spoiler OP style has had stuff that didn't actually happen during that OP airing due to filler pushing stuff back.
Hopefully within 24 weeks. I mean the show got a new spoiler OP (I remember in the old days the OP would show non existent fights rather than spoil the canon ones, I guess now they assume everyone has read the manga or at least are aware of the events) implying there is a plan to end the filler arc sometime.
Then again in the past the spoiler OP style has had stuff that didn't actually happen during that OP airing due to filler pushing stuff back.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
-Pyromaniac-
Member
frealz the guy was like 90% talk
Also the names are both hilarious and fine once you get used to them. I don't mind Bolt at all, I like that it's a Neji (RIP) reference. Also Sarada's name I refer to tumblr:
Boruto and Salad ftw.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
googleplex
Member
Dude, Bolt is half Uzimaki and part Hyuga. And he probably has a bit of Nine Tail Fox chakra He and his sister are both getting Rinnegan. You can bank on it.
There is hindu mythos all over the place in Naruto.
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