Witcher 3 downgrade arguments in here and nowhere else
- Thread starter Jigolo
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Downgrade backslash needs bigger soapbox to stand on?
I think it's just reality of it that masses? won't see nor follow threads like this that really dig into graphical changes of the game over its development cycle. One could maybe even argue that masses don't really care as long game looks good [enough]?
Personally I can't wait for more technical breakdowns of TW3.
Seriously, has it ever?
In the bigger picture, these concerns here (and any "downgrade" thread) are utterly minor.
Mad Season
Banned
what kind of post is this?? a game is only good based on graphics alone? and.. you haven even played the game.
Vincent Grayson
Member
The "masses" won't ever know anything other than what comes on the disc/download. We, the people looking at every trailer for years, are very much in the minority.
jim2point0
Banned
I think part of it is the fact that every impression from everyone that's gotten their hands on the game so far has been positive. All those youtubers who got to preview the game had a lot of great things to say. And I don't think they were obligated to only say positive things.
A lot of folks also made the point that people likely saw the initial reveal and\or the Sword of Destiny trailer and only that. So maybe they have no clue that there's been any downgrading.
Regardless, all signs point to this being a pretty darn good game, underwhelming visuals notwithstanding.
Back on topic... the preload is up now. I hear it's a 25GB download. Less than half the size of GTA5. I expect either low resolution textures, or a shit-ton of recycled assets (probably both for the grass... lol).
This thread just seems to be a collection of different ways to say "yes, it's downgraded" and "It still looks pretty good".
The fact that assets and lighting changed since the Sword of Destiny trailer is absolutely confirmed. This shouldn't even be up for debate anymore. Whether or not you think the game still looks good is purely opinion.
My problem with downgrade talks is that a lot of people come in saying it's about transparency, but what it's often about is some weird, childish combination of "my game looks better than yours!", "This dev sucks/rocks", or "PC/Console is better than Console/PC!".
I don't like that CDPR has continued to flat out deny what happened, and I think they should be called out on that. But when these threads barrel into console wars and nonsense, it gets ultra unproductive and kind of disgusting.
The fact that assets and lighting changed since the Sword of Destiny trailer is absolutely confirmed. This shouldn't even be up for debate anymore. Whether or not you think the game still looks good is purely opinion.
My problem with downgrade talks is that a lot of people come in saying it's about transparency, but what it's often about is some weird, childish combination of "my game looks better than yours!", "This dev sucks/rocks", or "PC/Console is better than Console/PC!".
I don't like that CDPR has continued to flat out deny what happened, and I think they should be called out on that. But when these threads barrel into console wars and nonsense, it gets ultra unproductive and kind of disgusting.
People really have to stop preordering.
People other than me, ofc. I preordered The Witcher 3 in February 28, 2014. Oh yeah.
cripterion
Member
I'm just speaking for myself but while I can concede the game still looks damn good it doesn't wow me as much as before. There are posters going through mental gymnastics just to tell us it does but I have my own eyes to see.
Yet, even if it got downgraded I'm still very much looking forward to play it, I just dislike CDPR communication "No downgrade, we improved this and this (which is true for some things but why not talk about the things that look worse? Oh different time of day, ok..), all versions look the same bar resolution, minor differences in color, we're not showing ultra settings yet : we want to surprise you, etc..."
I'm checking their latest trailer and the game is beautiful, but I see remnants of the old footage and I think why would they put it in knowing it's not there anymore.
I mean the sequence with the Wild Hunt king with the burning village looks like Unreal Engine tech demo to me.
EDIT : GoG download kinda slow for anyone else? I don't mind since we're more than a week away but wishing I would have gotten the Steam version considering the price and ease of use.
Darkstorne
Member
There was a downgrade to the lighting engine (CDPR admitted as much, specifically saying the game would look worse in some areas as a result), and it's obvious to anyone with eyes that the grass density and sprites have been changed. From a "technical standpoint", here's why:
Grass density is incredibly taxing on both the GPU and CPU, rendering more sprites and polygons on screen, and increasing the work of the ambient occlusion shader. AO has clearly taken a hit with the new lighting engine (presumably for optimization reasons), and lowering the grass density will have improved the AO performance even further. To counter that, grass textures were altered to feature thicker blades of grass, creating an illusion of density (compared to the numerous thin bladed sprites from before).
That also factors into why some people get a "cartoony" vibe - thicker grass blades with a simpler lighting system.
Luckily, if ENB gets implemented then decent AO can be modded back into the game. Grass textures are easy enough to replace too. It's the density that will remain an issue. Mods can do a lot for flora quite easily though:
jim2point0
Banned
Borris has gone on record several times saying he wouldn't do ENB for DX11. So I wouldn't get my hopes up for that.
Darkstorne
Member
That's a shame. Hopefully someone with the know-how is willing to try. Especially with a DX11 Bethesda Game Studios title on the horizon - there will be a lot of demand for an ENB solution there.
What I really want to know is why the hell the original foliage wasn't kept, or at least have an option to change it to what it was. Yes maybe it was super demanding, but can't it be toned down or changed in settings for the people with lower end hardware? I mean they've literally ripped it all out and replaced it with completely different (and clearly much much uglier) foliage. Now we get these flat pieces of paper protruding from the ground cut into the shape of foliage and smudged with a washed out green colour that doesn't seem to respond very well to lighting, cast believable shadows or contain much detail. The trees seem to have this problem but it isn't as prominent.
I'm counting on mods now...
I'm counting on mods now...
CyberPunked
Member
Well he's gonna be running out of games to develop it for.
The grass foliage has always been flat sprites.They have never had self shadowing.
What does respond well to lighting mean? This aspect has not changed, unless by lighting you mean colour grading.
Pagusas
Elden Member
I think that's the point...
As for the foliage, I feel the game is coming out just a year too soon, maybe we will see nvidias grass system put in with a future "enhanced" edition.
heringer said:Do you have a link for the video of the first gif?Here'a another example I was looking at, of foliage being hit hard. Pay attention to the grass and distant trees in these clips. Different times of day I realize, but the quality is drastically different.
Newer gameplay
Older gameplay
The top image still looks great, no denying that, but the grass and foliage on the bottom image is ridiculously full. There's hardly any blank patches of dirt and the detail on the trees down the hill, and quanity of them is certainly better. Again I'm not saying the top gif doesn't look great, but its for sure not the same level of detail as the bottom one.
I don't see that game at the bottom happening to anything that is being dual released with consoles. Not this gen.
Those are some huge differences. Especially in the fluidity of the screen movement with so much on screen. Maybe the Witcher 3 will allow modding so we can make the game look like the earlier builds, because that is some huge downgrading to me.
The fluidity of movement is almost entirely due to the difference in the quality of the two gifs.
I'm talking about the horse and everything. Compare the horse animations.
Its hinds legs move like pedals in the bottom one, but they move with the same simultaneous animation in the top. Also the tail is a lot more erratic. The animation itself looks like it was toned down some. Though, I guess that could also be the difference in the gifs.
Though looking at it now, its probably the difference in running speed. Geralts leaning in suggest that the bottom one it running at full speed and the top probably(hopefully) isn't.
I... I know that... Im just saying that originally they did a good job of not making them look like 2d sprites and making it look like proper foliage. The fact that whenever I look at the foliage now all my mind thinks of is paper cut-outs is the issue I have. To me, originally they were thinner, had much more detail, reacted to the light nicely and casted shadows properly.
I'm not here to argue the technical details of the foliage, because for some reason you guys seem to feel the need to pick on specifics when you know what we're trying to say. My point is simply that it looks horrible in comparison.
It's entirely possible, but in all the recent footage I've seen, horse animation wasn't one of the things I picked out as being scaled back.
The main differences between those two gifs are the less detailed foliage and the removal of the lighting filter that gave it that purpley glow and the dust effects on the lens.
Exploratory
Banned
NBA 2k15 doesn't look like that if anything the graphics got a little worse in some cases.
Then avoid making statements about lighting, what makes their reaction to light different? Just because you think they had self shadowing, does not make it so. They did not cast shadows.
Just say you think it is ugly and you don't like the way it looks now, that is enough. You don't need to start inventing problems.
OmegaDL50
Member
Seriously I like to know this as well. In what world does a graphical downgrade have ANY indication that the story writing has been negatively impacted. What the hell?
We are talking about The Witcher right? You know series of games based on a very good series of books?
As much as I love The Elderscrolls game's I really wouldn't go so far say their writing warrant novels written for it. The same cannot be said for The Witcher.
Hell I'd think anyone who has any fucking semblance of game dev would at least have the common sense to know that the graphical artists and graphic engine design teams has almost nothing the scenario and script writers being handling two different tasks. It's laughable to even make a comparison in the first place.
Fools maybe. Not people in general.
Train of Midnight
Banned
So is this Dark Souls 2 all over again or worse?
Denton
Member
No, Dark Souls 2 was way way worse.
This is very mild as far as downgrades are concerned.
And unlike From, CDP is not bullshiting and hasn't been bullshitting for a year at least. From/Namco bullshited until release.
It's the only way I know how to explain the differences I'm seeing. Just ignore my comments if it bothers you that much, honestly.
It is kind of hard as your comments are symptomatic of many comments in this thread. Only, you make more specific claims (which can be challenged).
CerebralTiger
Member
Is there a source for this?
GHG
Gold Member
Shhhh. Don't tell them this.
They'd rather bitch about performance (or lack thereof) in the DF thread and state that the devs are "lazy" and that they should have been able to get more out of consoles.
The devs are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Again, I'm just trying to explain what I'm seeing, and others have either shared similar thoughts, or my views haven't bothered them as much as they've bothered you. Sorry for the trauma you've probably experienced reading my posts.
Darkstorne
Member
Yep. They've tried to put a nice spin on it, but they also aren't denying that they changed the lighting system. We've known for a long time it doesn't used anything advanced like global illumination though, so maybe it shouldn't have been a surprise that all we saw previously were advanced lighting techniques at specifically selected times of day, and what we're ending up with is a cheaper lighting system for performance, with assets that don't always perfectly match up with the time of day:
http://www.gamepressure.com/e.asp?ID=73
Kurt Russell
Member
Damn, this has been downgraded so much that the preload on Steam is only 13mb.
I still think that it looks really good, the leaked xbone videos look amazing (though the pop in is quite bad)
Sorry
I still think that it looks really good, the leaked xbone videos look amazing (though the pop in is quite bad)
Admiral Woofington
Member
Seems like they did improve certain aspects but downgraded others. I'll still call it a sidegrade. Illumination and vegetation are the most obvious downgrades but there's better things as well.
OmegaDL50
Member
This game is going to be the ultimate test for my PC.
I only got a i5 3570k and HD7950.
Hell people with GTX 970's are worried apparently. I guess my HD7950 is going to be brought to it's absolute limits.
I'm definitely not running it on Ultra, but at least I should get better than PS4 level........I hope........maybe.....no?
It's almost summer time and I live in Northeast US, so temps I gotta worry about too. I probably won't be able to play this game in the Summer, and I'm going to have to wait until Fall / Winter to not over heat my PC.
I only got a i5 3570k and HD7950.
Hell people with GTX 970's are worried apparently. I guess my HD7950 is going to be brought to it's absolute limits.
I'm definitely not running it on Ultra, but at least I should get better than PS4 level........I hope........maybe.....no?
It's almost summer time and I live in Northeast US, so temps I gotta worry about too. I probably won't be able to play this game in the Summer, and I'm going to have to wait until Fall / Winter to not over heat my PC.
Yeah. It is better than a ps4.
I'm hardly the first person to challenge your assertions in this thread.
I'd love to know what PC-equivalent settings the PS4 version runs at. High perhaps? If can get the same quality as the PS4 version but with 60fps on my 780 Ti I'll be very happy.
Never said you were
. You just seem the most bothered out of the lot. Just my observation. Probably completely wrong though just like the rest of my observations in the thread.The Jackdog
Member
Dark souls 2 had the supposed lighting and stuff in screens and everything up until release.
If i remember right, people bought the game, then noticed the downgrade.
jim2point0
Banned
You do not remember right. People knew about the downgrade before the game was out.
The conversation blew up in the Dark Souls 2 OT. Eventually a dedicated thread was made for it. That was March 9th. The game still wasn't released yet (March 11th).
Denton
Member
But all official trailers still featured nondowngraded version, no ?
And yeah looking at that thread and those screenshots, Witcher has nothing on DS2 when it comes to downgrading.
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
When they first showed off the game, I remember people saying it would be downgraded some by release like it was no bid deal. Thats why I am shocked this thread is so large. I just figured it was a ho-hum "told you so" moment (and little else) that everyone was expecting.
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