Stone Ocean
Member
Do you understand how games get made? Hint: You don't put bills inside a drive and the computer makes the game, you need to actually pay people to get the game made.
You want Kickstarter devs to do charity work or something?
Koji Igarashi Kickstarts Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night (2.5D, backdash, 2018)
- Thread starter PranooY
- Start date
You want Kickstarter devs to do charity work or something?
I do. And you've shown throughout this thread that you are not interested in having a discussion: You are interested in shifting your point and your arguments as wildly and often as necessary to control the narrative. I pointed out as much, called bullshit on it by bringing up your completely different points from yesterday, and all you responded with was a limp-wristed attempt at turning the tables by trying to put the onus of proof on me. It won't work.
You are being disingenuous, nonsensical, and borderline delusional in what you have said in this thread. You are contributing nothing, adding nothing of value to the discussion, and refusing to engage in proper discussion. No, having dozens and dozens of posts in the thread doesn't make your contributions valuable.
Over, and over, and over again.
We are all ready to move on and actually discuss something productive. You refuse to let it go, because a Cheat Codes stretch goal yesterday somehow made you go on a personal vendetta against this game.
It's fucking absurd, to say the least. Anyone that has been following this thread can see it.
Holy shit, that is completely absurd.
Are you somehow under the impression that projects should not go on Kickstarter if the people involved get paid more than a subsistence wage?
Holy shit.
"The whole point of Kickstarter" is to crowdfund projects. Period. You don't get to decide the reasoning behind it.
I won't engage in this discussion with you anymore, because I'm actually contributing to the shitting of the thread at this point. Unlike you, I'll keep my word on this.
The point of KS is; X doesn't exist. Person Y can make X. We give Y Z money and they will make X.
If in the process of making X they don't fatten their wallets at least a little; then they haven't thought this through very well and likely are a dumb teenager and wouldn't be able to make X.
All those kick starters that promise the moon and ask 100k are likely going to fail. The ones that ask 1.5m to make a 2.5D action RPG is more likely to succeed.
The initial ask was a measure of interest and the backer rewards a slightly over priced pre-order. 500k would not be able to fund a HD SotN. 1.5M probably wouldn't either. SotN took around 10 people 3 years to make and would need min 2-3m in today's funds. And then they need to profit.
Dimitri LH
Member
Geez, what a turn this thread took....im just amazed is caused by one person.
Anyways, I really do wonder how they are going to manage the Wii U version.....maybe its a diffrent storyline? Or its more akin to the classics with sprites?
Yes I totally expect the WiiU stretchgoal to be achieved.
Anyways, I really do wonder how they are going to manage the Wii U version.....maybe its a diffrent storyline? Or its more akin to the classics with sprites?
Yes I totally expect the WiiU stretchgoal to be achieved.
I imagine that they struggled with the possibility of offering a Wii U stretch goals themselves.
It seems like it might add a lot of uncertainty to the project. Perhaps the stretch goal should be something like "we will try to get it on Nintendo's next platform" or something of the sort? It is a 2017 game, after all.
Sevyne
Member
You know that part in Zoolander about the files being "in the computer"? Gotta get them games out of the computer with something!
Anytime I see people blindly criticize the costs of game development or the ease of the task, I think of that movie scene for some reason. That's what they remind me of.
Oh. I...uh....I guess I heard wrong/assumed too much! *audible gulp*
(Actually this is a case of me being glad to be wrong, more than anything. Looking forward to Robo Fortune! Hope things go well for you guys going forward..)
sixteen-bit
Member
Italian SF2 bootleg?
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
Of course the devs can proportion a certain amount of salary/profit/burn rate into account and I assume all devs do this when they decide the KS budget but don't forget that they are selling the game afterwards as well.
This is what I mean when I say that backers are interested in making a game and not fattening the dev's wallet.
This whole thing is getting ridiculous to be honest. My whole point is that the pitch for this KS is vague and lacks any planning (Cheat codes! Speed run!) which is harmful to the health of the project in terms of growing the budget and to future projects on KS because lack of info makes people wary.
I guess there really is a defense force for everything on GAF.
Not mad, just wanted to clarify.
When budgeting for our CF campaign, the idea was that we might just barely squeak by with Squigly. So everyone agreed to subsitence pay at a level they got to choose, with the thought that this would just buy us some time until we signed something else.
We determined how long we thought a character would take, and so everyone got their money for that character up front, and didn't get paid again until the next character.
Then it blew up, and we got locked into subsistence pay for two years. Except it wasn't even subsistence with the Konami delays, etc. So the artists, in particular, had to start working on the side to make ends meet.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Port the game in late 2017 - 2018 ? for Wii U ?
Nose Master
Member
Prolly mentioned but "speed run" modes usually remove as much RNG as possible. Enemies will always be in the same spawn point, drop rates are fixed, etc. There's a timer too, but the other part is more relevant.
Its already too late. Waste of money and resources. By the time 2017 roles around they can just port it to whatever other ninty platform there is.
I don't think anyone's saying it's cheap. They're saying there's demand and there's money to pay for it.
Might as well get all your complaining about the Wii U out of the way now, guys. The stretch goal will come and it will be met.
Yeah, don't let people pay to fund the Wii U port if they want it or anything.
At that point, a new console will be out and it would likely meet the specifications for UE4, and they can just port it for far less cost. Epic would have done the legwork themselves to get support for the new Nintendo platform which would benefit them that they could have people making and porting games to a new platform anyway.
I won't complain at all, I will gladly double dip in that case to also have a semi-portable version!
I just wonder if it's the best use of resources.
Finale Fireworker
Member
I guess there really is a defense force for everything on GAF.
Would you just get out here, please? You've basically destroyed this thread with your antics and nobody wants to talk to you any more. Nobody here agrees with you. You are not some enlightened genius who has had the veil lifted from their eyes and sees the true evil of Kickstarter.
You are a self-important critic who is using a platform meant for people who support Kickstarter as your soapbox to criticize its modus operandi. Make your own thread and be upset when the "defense force" doesn't agree with you there, either.
Dimitri LH
Member
Crud, I keep forgetting the 2017 mark. I guess NX would be the next best thing, but I still think Iga dosent want to leave the Wii U owners left out and might come up with something.
Doing Wii U dev at the start just gimps every other version of potential niceties that might have come along. Rather them port afterwards so they can scale down and not have a low ceiling.
Finale Fireworker
Member
We would be paying for the resources. A stretch goal for Wii U/Vita would be a fundraiser for those ports. Resources would be newly allocated and the downport would begin at the end of development for the main version. The whole reason they are such a distant stretch goal is to NOT compromise the original vision.
Right -- the point being that, rather than spending X on the Wii U port, we could have X be spent on, say, additional enemies, music, or animation.
I'm not taking a super tough stance here -- I'm fine with a Wii U version if it eventually exists.
Don't count on it. KS is a huge chunk of your potential audience for niche games. Sales beyond that are up to market forces you can't control. If it's obviously financially viable the publishers would want to get into it. The reason niche games show up on KS is that the publishers don't think it's viable. They would be stupid to make the assumption you want them to. They would be wiser to take this Kick starters tact of using KS funds as a 2 year in advance pre-order.
If the studio is wise they will build that into their plan. If they aren't it spells trouble. Game devs are underpaid in general. I make the same as a senior guy I know at a game studio. I don't put in 60h-80h weeks as regularly as him and my skillset is no less specialized.
This whole thing is getting ridiculous to be honest. My whole point is that the pitch for this KS is vague and lacks any planning (Cheat codes! Speed run!) which is harmful to the health of the project in terms of growing the budget and to future projects on KS because lack of info makes people wary.
I guess there really is a defense force for everything on GAF.
I'm saying your point of view is ignorant of the actual cost of things and the danger of expanding scope. Scope creep is the bane of all tech projects and successful projects hedge against it aggressively. The sentiments you express would doom projects and they would be far more likely to succeed by sticking with their plan and treating the KS as most of their final sales. If it hits after that then great. BloodStaine 2 pre-funded. If not, they can walk away having delivered X product and not gone into poverty to satiate some vague sense of 'right' in gamers.
R_thanatos
Member
Lol, so they should work for a project and burn money they don't have in hopes that they can regroup it later ?
I can only laugh at this. Not sure you understand why some devs go toward kickstarter ( at all )
I hope you guys got a decent back end out of that.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
I guess there really is a defense force for everything on GAF.
There isn't a defense force for you, it would appear.
loganclaws
Plane Escape Torment
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion from what I'm saying. The KS money is obviously going to pay the devs to make the product? The part that is bolded is talking about PROFIT. Do you understand what that is? That is the amount the devs make after they break even, ie above their salaries and expenses. No offense but this is an internet forum and I have no idea if I'm talking to a financial analyst or a 12 year old who dropped out of high school.
There isn't a defense force for you, it would appear.
Zing!
Is Igarashi broke or is this a passion project cuz why make this sure to me piece of garbage?
Its not even pixel, its in Unity, so its not a passion project obviously.
This also feels about 4 years late to the party. Indies have outpaced him long ago.
That game Slain, coming out next month, is pixel based, and it looks amazing. This game will come out in god knows when, and will be far worse than the best metroidvanias on steam.
Terrible, terrible 2.5d. Slain looks awesome. Someone plz embed a trailer.
Its not even pixel, its in Unity, so its not a passion project obviously.
This also feels about 4 years late to the party. Indies have outpaced him long ago.
That game Slain, coming out next month, is pixel based, and it looks amazing. This game will come out in god knows when, and will be far worse than the best metroidvanias on steam.
Terrible, terrible 2.5d. Slain looks awesome. Someone plz embed a trailer.
Dimitri LH
Member
You guys will forever be one of my top favorite devs and you all seriously deserve so much more. I just hope it dosent affect any future plans (if any) with the SkullGirls IP (or any IP you guys come up with).
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
People aren't excited for an IGA game because of its visuals. They're excited for the game design.
They already had another backer; still very hard to measure what the final sales could be this early. While at konami every subsequent metroivania sold less than the last.
The lack of them made our hearts grow fonder but it is probably still a niche game. I just think they should stick to a conservative sales estimate and budget.
That's sad to hear. I enjoyed the game and I'll support what ever your next project is.
Dimitri LH
Member
Um....please tell me this is a joke post?
Dont come into a forum shit talking about the OT game while promoting another, Slain looks wonderful, but the gameplay seems bland.
Also, since you can clearly see into the future to know that this game will be terrible, can I ask for this weeks lottery numbers? Thanks.
Edit: Okay I came off as rude and I apologize, but thats the first time a post set me off on GAF.
More_Badass
Member
Come on now. I'm excited for Slain too, but that's some ridiculous unsubstantiated hyperbole right there
R_thanatos
Member
The fact that you think , that a project will break , based only on the initial estimate of funding shows that you don't understand how bad things can do during develloppement.
There is an exemple on this very page about lab zero when , from their POV , they had to limit their revenue a Lot in order to suceed .
You're talking about profit AFTER , when this is an unknow , something NO one can possibly predict.
Also No offense taken , since i'm a 31 year old devellopper, people having no idea what this work trully is, are often seen from my POV.
There is nothing wrong with making a profit off of a KS. After the project is funded, anything after that is just extra sales, or people going for their perks. I guess I see stretch goals as a collective pre-order bonus than something that should be motivating sales.
Also, the reality is that a lot of that so-called "profit" will be eaten up by unforeseen delays. Or they might choose to hire more people to speed up production, or to get back on track after unforeseen delays. Or to improve the visuals. There are lots of ways they might use the extra money that won't actually be "profit."
For example, on our campaign, we had to pay for our own console QA. I thought I had budgeted for the worst case scenario, but the first patch cost more than we budgeted for. But every patch after that came well under budget, which allowed me to fund some wishlist items - mostly extra stages and music. And because we were behind on some things, I doubled the size of the postcard set, too.
And because of the psychology of KS, where you want to hit the goal as soon as possible, most devs choose to shift any budget padding into the stretch goals. And that padding is likely to be the thing that actually gets the game out.
This. Visuals certainly help. But its largely about the exploration and character growth aspects for me. I love hitting all the walls, floors and ceilings to sniff out secret rooms and items. I also love the feeling of getting stronger over time which grants the player more tools and freedom of movement. In fact beating the game is never really the end for me, its only when you've combed every inch of the game and mastered every skill and item, then I can call the game finished.
It's in Unreal 4 and they are shooting for an Xrd look. Also, what does the engine have to do with being a passion project?
ephemeral garbage
Member
it's in UE4
neat! a lot of us in this thread can afford more than one game every three years, i'm not sure why you're taking the existence of this kickstarter as such a threat
no embedding on gaf; i'm guessing you're on a phone that autoconverts youtube links or something
Uh, it's not in Unity. It's in Unreal 4, thankfully.
And Slain is not a pretty game. I'm tired of pixel stuff, most of it does not look very good on modern displays. If Iga gets anywhere remotely near the GGX style like they want it will look far, far better than any pixel game ever could.
InfiniteNine
Rolling Girl
Everything is 3D in Guilty Gear including the characters.
Kojirospath
Member
The new one, he might be thinking of the old ones. But weren't those full 2D?